The US provoked the Russia-Georgian skirmish - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 09-07-2008, 12:22 PM

the bush administration's mucking about in central asia was mostly likely one of a series of conditions of possibility for georgia's decision to go into south ossetia--in the assurances of american "support" for georgia, say. if you notice, loquitor, there is no claim--apart from putin's---that there was a one-for-one correspondence (cause-effect relation)--but it is a significant element in the overall situation. what the administration was doing mucking about in central asia in the first place had and has everything to do with oil, obviously.

it does not follow--nor did i (or anyone else) say--that russia's decision to attack georgia over it's incursion into south ossetia was in the american's interest. so that's a red herring. no more reason to talk about it.

jorgelito---tisonlyi's went beyond simply going after the americans. the fade of empire and defunctionalization of nation-state based ideologies are of a piece, and seem to be a more-or-less global problem. different political groups, in power in different places, choose to deal with it in particular ways--the bush administration is not that dissimilar from putin in their choices. little wars like this are great for fading empires: they galvanize support and what's more are excellent for bidness.

host · 09-07-2008, 12:48 PM

There will never be ironclad "proof", but their fingerprints are all over this, "OP":

Quote:

Think Progress Rice refuses to ‘interrupt her holidays’ to deal with Georgian conflict.
August 11, 2008
Georgian conflict.»

When she should be traveling abroad to work with allies to deal with the ongoing fallout from Russia’s invasion of Georgia, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has instead been “noticeably absent.” AFP reports she is busy with other plans:

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has also been noticeably absent on the diplomatic scene, having failed to interrupt her holidays to fly to Tbilisi in support of the Georgian government.

Instead senior State Department official, Matthew Bryza, who oversees the Caucasus region was sent, two days later than planned, to join a joint EU-US mediation effort to win a ceasefire.

State Department spokesman Robert Wood said Rice made more than 90 calls this weekend to discuss the situation in Georgia.....

While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia - washingtonpost.com
While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia
Campaign Dismisses Timing of Phone Call, Contract

By Matthew Mosk and Jeffrey H. Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 13, 2008; Page A03

....Sen. John McCain's top foreign policy adviser prepped his boss for an April 17 phone call with the president of Georgia and then helped the presumptive Republican presidential nominee prepare a strong statement of support for the fledgling republic.

The day of the call, a lobbying firm partly owned by the adviser, Randy Scheunemann, signed a $200,000 contract to continue providing strategic advice to the Georgian government in Washington......

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/wa...3Ub1AoXI8sP2Qg

August 13, 2008

One month ago, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, for a high-profile visit that was planned to accomplish two very different goals.

During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.

...But publicly, Ms. Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. “I’m going to visit a friend and I don’t expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend,” she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia...

..Ms. Rice went to Tbilisi just as tensions between Russia and Georgia were escalating. Standing next to Mr. Saakashvili during a press conference, she said that Russia “needs to be a part of resolving the problem and solving the problems and not contributing to it.” Mr. Saakashvili, for his part, was clearly thrilled to host Ms. Rice....

...Ms. Rice did not get on the phone with her Georgian counterpart on Thursday, but left it to Mr. Fried to deliver the “don’t go in” message, a senior administration official said. “I don’t think it would have made any difference if she had,” the official said. “They knew the message was coming from the top.”...

... A few hours later, in the early morning hours of Friday, Aug. 8, Georgia launched its offensive in South Ossetia, and Russia responded with a tenfold show of force. Ms. Rice, the administration official said, “called Saakashvili on Friday morning, after their folks were in.”...

....and Rove had opportunity in July, (...same time as Condi's "visit".....) for face to face access to

Quote:

YALTA EUROPEAN STRATEGY (YES)

5th YALTA ANNUAL MEETING

Yalta, Ukraine, 10 – 13 July 2008

....Saturday, July 12, Yalta

09:30 – 11:00 – Plenary session: Elections in Russia and the USA: impact on Ukraine and Europe
What will be the foreign policy of the new Russian and American leadership over the coming years? How will it impact their relationship with the European Union and Ukraine, and EU’s further enlargement?

Moderator: Richard Haass
Panel:
Sergey Glaziev, Director, Institute for New Economy, member of the 1st, 3rd and 4th Russian State Duma
Kostyantyn Gryshchenko, Ambassador to the Russian Federation and First Deputy Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine
Alexander Rahr, Programme Director, German Council on Foreign Relations, member of the Board of YES
Karl Rove, Former Deputy Chief of Staff to George W. Bush and Chief Strategist for Bush's Presidential Campaigns
Bob Shrum, political consultant and Senior Fellow, Wagner Graduate School of Public Service, New York University

11:00 – 11:30 – coffee break

11:30 – 13:00 – Plenary session: Building Democracy and Market Economy in the Black Sea Region
What are the lessons to be learnt from the transitions in the Black Sea Region? How can they inspire their neighboring countries and Ukraine? What is the room for regional cooperation? What should be the EU policy?

Moderator: Richard Haass
Keynote speaker: Mikhail Saakashvili, President of Georgia
Panel:.....

roachboy · 09-07-2008, 01:17 PM

o there's no doubt that the bush people had their fingers and thumbs in the pie.
it is difficult to go from there to an exact mapping of action x on their part and action y on the part of georgia---but i don't see any basis for disputing that the context is in significant measure shaped by the actions of the bush people. *and* russia, which is jockeying with these people for geopolitical advantage. i think it's beyond naive to assume the contrary, even if you can't at this point go much further than that.

and can we ever dispense with this tiresome category of "america bashing" or are we saddled with this bush-meme permanently? it means nothing, says nothing, does nothing except to provide folk who do not want to face facts with an excuse to not do it.

jorgelito · 09-07-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

the bush administration's mucking about in central asia was mostly likely one of a series of conditions of possibility for georgia's decision to go into south ossetia--in the assurances of american "support" for georgia, say. if you notice, loquitor, there is no claim--apart from putin's---that there was a one-for-one correspondence (cause-effect relation)--but it is a significant element in the overall situation. what the administration was doing mucking about in central asia in the first place had and has everything to do with oil, obviously.

it does not follow--nor did i (or anyone else) say--that russia's decision to attack georgia over it's incursion into south ossetia was in the american's interest. so that's a red herring. no more reason to talk about it.

jorgelito---tisonlyi's went beyond simply going after the americans. the fade of empire and defunctionalization of nation-state based ideologies are of a piece, and seem to be a more-or-less global problem. different political groups, in power in different places, choose to deal with it in particular ways--the bush administration is not that dissimilar from putin in their choices. little wars like this are great for fading empires: they galvanize support and what's more are excellent for bidness.

Ok, I can agree with that to some extent.
-----Added 7/9/2008 at 06 : 11 : 26-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

o there's no doubt that the bush people had their fingers and thumbs in the pie.
it is difficult to go from there to an exact mapping of action x on their part and action y on the part of georgia---but i don't see any basis for disputing that the context is in significant measure shaped by the actions of the bush people. *and* russia, which is jockeying with these people for geopolitical advantage. i think it's beyond naive to assume the contrary, even if you can't at this point go much further than that.

and can we ever dispense with this tiresome category of "america bashing" or are we saddled with this bush-meme permanently? it means nothing, says nothing, does nothing except to provide folk who do not want to face facts with an excuse to not do it.

I disagree roach, The tone of some of your posts were definitely "America bashing". It's the way you frame and phrase it. I often end up agreeing with the text of your posts after you clarify but not the tone. Such is the hazards of 2-d posting I suppose.

09-07-2008, 12:22 PM	#41 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the bush administration's mucking about in central asia was mostly likely one of a series of conditions of possibility for georgia's decision to go into south ossetia--in the assurances of american "support" for georgia, say. if you notice, loquitor, there is no claim--apart from putin's---that there was a one-for-one correspondence (cause-effect relation)--but it is a significant element in the overall situation. what the administration was doing mucking about in central asia in the first place had and has everything to do with oil, obviously. it does not follow--nor did i (or anyone else) say--that russia's decision to attack georgia over it's incursion into south ossetia was in the american's interest. so that's a red herring. no more reason to talk about it. jorgelito---tisonlyi's went beyond simply going after the americans. the fade of empire and defunctionalization of nation-state based ideologies are of a piece, and seem to be a more-or-less global problem. different political groups, in power in different places, choose to deal with it in particular ways--the bush administration is not that dissimilar from putin in their choices. little wars like this are great for fading empires: they galvanize support and what's more are excellent for bidness. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-07-2008, 01:17 PM	#43 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	o there's no doubt that the bush people had their fingers and thumbs in the pie. it is difficult to go from there to an exact mapping of action x on their part and action y on the part of georgia---but i don't see any basis for disputing that the context is in significant measure shaped by the actions of the bush people. and russia, which is jockeying with these people for geopolitical advantage. i think it's beyond naive to assume the contrary, even if you can't at this point go much further than that. and can we ever dispense with this tiresome category of "america bashing" or are we saddled with this bush-meme permanently? it means nothing, says nothing, does nothing except to provide folk who do not want to face facts with an excuse to not do it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite