host

In the TFP contest results announced yesterday, roachboy received the most votes from members in the category, "best presenter". I congratulate him and I think he is an excellent choice for this award.

My point here is that I happen to agree with him politically, on almost all of what he "presents" here. His has been a major influence in the development and fine tuning of my own political POV. But...I confess...I didn't vote in the contest.

I am wondering if that is also the case with anyone else, because I don't see it coming through in the posts of more than a couple of others here....hence the question asked in the thread title.

If there is not a general awareness of or agreement with his....in contemporary America, anyway....seemingly out of the mainstream political views, can there be much of an awareness of how those views work into his posts on other forums, besides this one, at TFP?

In other words, if a member regarded as "best presenter", site wide, on this forum, is not able to garner much of an influence, i.e....a change, or a reaction in/from other members, with regard to their political views, who...or what, do you think, might do that....influence changes in your political POV?

Or, do I have it wrong....his posts have had a profound influence on your political POV, because you're looking at "insert political faction here" in a kinder, gentler way?

roachboy, please vanquish any stage fright tendencies in your forum persona, and weigh in, here!

ubertuber

There are probably as many reasons as there were voters.

I can tell you that roachboy's threads in politics didn't even come to my mind when i was thinking about him as presenter.

I thought of his journal, and his contributions in Found on the Net. He's got a wide range, and a singular viewpoint.

Many, if not most, of the active posters on TFP don't consider Politics to the be center of the site. And that's fair, because I don't spend much time in Sexuality or Cooking. It takes all kinds around here.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

abaya

For what it's worth, the Politics forum was the last thing on my mind during the voting process... I tend to ignore most of what goes on there, in general, mostly because it doesn't feel like a healthy place to be. A quote comes to mind to describe how I feel when reading people's posts in that forum:

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

roachboy

geez, host--i have no idea what you want me to say to this.

what you posted is in part very flattering----and in part is curious.

the curious part is that you effectively seem to put me in the position of being able to say why folk might have voted for me as presenter--and i'm a bit surprised that they did, really, simply because my life in the underground has generated adaptations and one of them is that i do what i do and assume that much of it is invisible.

i'm pleased when i discover that i'm wrong, when i do, but it is nonetheless still the case.

i want folk to interact with what i am doing, but have worked out ways to continue regardless.

i'm going to talk about something else for a bit:

i have this running fight with one of the folk who i have worked with in clairaudient about what i "owe" an audience, whether i "owe" it to "them" to explain what's happening, or whether i "owe" it to them to move inside more. she argues that i do---i argue that my only real obligation is to be clear, to be precise, and internally consistent, to present layers of articulated information and past that to leave it up to an audience to fashion their own experience from within the constraints.

there are always levels that correspond to how i see a particular project, and so there is always a deciphering game, and when the experience of at least some of an audience coincides with what i think is going on, then i see in it something of a success on my own terms--but it's also interesting and cool that folk see entirely other things---and interesting and cool that they see nothing at all.

and it's not easy to maintain an engagement on the part of folk who do not simply float around in your head with material that you generate or organize if there's no particular expectation on their part that they will see anything for having interacted with it.

or maybe they do see stuff, but it's not what i think.

or maybe making stuff is in a sense opening yourself to modalities of patterning and maybe we only see aspects of the phenomena that we pattern continuously, and so maybe partial is all there is, and maybe if you can figure out ways to let the patterning that your thought relies upon run independently of its relation to the emergent "i" function, that you can order stuff in ways that communicate past what you know yourself.

so maybe i am in the audience as well.

and maybe that explains this sense of being partially visible.
it's a constituitive feature of how i operate in the world.
and it is a basic aspect of how the world is.
who knows?

anyway, all this is related to soundwork.
it leaks everywhere.


enough of this. it's all cryptic and feels bizarrely self-indulgent. i dont know what i am explaining or why i am writing this or even how it got started. in this particular case, i'm not going to look back at it until i post because if i do i'll edit it, all of it, away.

it's all about explaining a curious sense of invisibility. the "i" function bounces along on a sleigh well behind the horses, which do other things.
how many horses are there?
where are they heading?
how fast are we going?
what's the landscape look like?



what exactly is a horse?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

loquitur

Roachboy, Host, do you mind if I do some uninformed speculation?

I didnt vote either, but if you asked me why people would vote for RB I'd say there are two things in his posts that would warrant it. One is tone - RB is about as far from hysterical as can be, and there's nothing bitter or personal to his stuff. The second is style - agree or disagree, when you read his stuff the impression you get is that he isn't reflexive but rather has thought stuff through. Put it together and presto! You get best presenter.

This is just my own personal impression. I speak for no one else.

Charlatan

While I agree with ubertuber about not really considering rb's politics posts when I voted for Presenter, I also agree with loquitur's post above.

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Bill O'Rights

Exactly.

While I don't often agree with roachboy, politicaly, I can respect and consider his opinion, because of the manner in which it is presented. He is not beligerent, preachy, snotty, moralistic or condescending. His posts are well thought out. And, while we rarely come to the same conclusion, that goes a long long way in my listening to that which is being presented.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

girldetective

I think the above is correct, although I also didnt vote. I like rboy's posts because I often derive some new perspective that is in line with my own, but with a new curve. I think we are often in line in our conclusions, if any, about various subjects, but I dont look just for those posts whose viewpoints align with mine. I usually read each person's thoughts in a thread and learn from them, whatever the viewpoint. If nothing else, I learn about a new viewpoint.

Also one cant help but notice how The rboy's ways with words are so sexy and creative, which makes for a good presenter.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Willravel

i figured it was the lack of capitalization.

"Tilted Presenter" is not a quantifiable state. There are a lot of different attributes and behaviors that might strike one as being worthy of being TP. It's possible that none of those from whom roachboy's votes came had the same reason for voting.

Getting to your main point, some people will always have a different ideological basis from you or I when making political decisions. Despite roachboy's sterling reputation, there are some people who he may never convince of certain things. The same goes for anyone, really. I'll never be able to convince most people that the NIST report on the events of 9/11 is basically useless from a scientific standpoint. And that failure can't always be attributed to how the message is conveyed.

girldetective

This is a perfect example, host, of why rboy's posts work for me. He brings up essential communication, invisibility, interaction, and the big one - patterning. I tend to forget that we work in patterns because of my sense of self and it is helpful to me on a daily basis to be reminded. So, he is successful in his posting on a personal level with me.

The rboy seems practical, gentle, subtle, thought provoking, usually right on, fun, and creative. He hits me where it counts so to speak and I understand. In addition, he allows me to play the game with him rather than control it. Communication.

In the end I think the rboy is personable because he shares himself.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

pig

Shit - why do I have to *think* about it? I like the way that old boy posts, damnit! It really has very little to do with his political leanings, although the fact that I frequently agree with them might make me biased. I enjoy the structure, the diction, and the willingness to transpose himself out of first person on occasion, and place himself within the so-called meta-conversation.

As to your original question host: time will do that. If you are subtlely asking if a presentation style like your own, full of links and documentation, passion and occasional vitriol, will change opinion more than, or in contrast to, roach's more prosaic style, or if his presentation style is superior - then I can't help you in your quest to change the minds of American, one TFP'er (or other board member) at a time. I seriously doubt that roach has significantly changed the political or philosophical positioning of too many TFP members with his posts, any more or less than other members. However, I do think that some of the explanation of the logic he uses, which is frequently included in his posts, without number of linked sources (which is your speciality) might challenge people to think about what they think in ways that are somehow less confrontational. Usually. Although sometimes he's confrontational too. I think there is a rhythm in his posts reminding others that he realizes that his thought processes are part of the difficulty in communication and positioning that endears him to others who do not share his position; thus, even if his core position could be construed as condescending (if one so chose in Bushworld, for example) - it often manages not to come across that way.

What the fuck - I voted for him based on the piece he did many moons ago in the TFP town thread. This little wires attached to his scarf did it for me. But I'm a simpleton that way.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

loquitur

pig, I don't think any poster changes another's views. What does happen, I would hope, is that a particularly well-thought-out post will open a reader's mind to a way of thinking s/he might not have considered. There probably is not much persuasion but, so long as the tone is right, there should be an increase in tolerance of those who disagree.

The other thing is, after a while here I have sort of isolated what basic premises certain people proceed from. People tend not to change premises because no one here is a blank slate. That's why there is very little persuasion going on. But there might be more understanding.

Cynthetiq

Maybe... but over time, that slow persuasion actually can be a complete change. It just happened slowly enough it didn't seem like change.

Look at some of the long time posters here and see how their positions have changed due to experience or life. Sometimes it's fascilitated by someone like you, roachboy, or the countless others in the community.

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girldetective

Nah. I like the dude in spite of his lack of little finger action.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

smooth

That's strange, because I was under the impression part of roachboy's project is to share a non-self...or some facsimile of a self. A projection of a self that has no real approximation to the 3d self other than embodying values and ideas his self-built caricature can be true to.

I guess it's an academic distinction, but it seems like you'd have to meet him in 3d to see how the two don't converge in the way most people mean when they say they have gotten to "know" someone through their online persona.

But I've not been around for a year or more so I could be misarticulating his position...or maybe that is only his political section persona.

hmm, maybe this will clarify what I was trying to put out there:
Roachboy is personable because he shares so much of roachboy...not the man that types as roachboy while sipping his morning cup of java.

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girldetective

Yes, thats what I said. I like the roachboy and his TFP offerings.

I dont know his doppelganger enjoying morning coffee.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata