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Obama & Dem Leaders Act Same As Bush: Lying Corporatist, Stealing Our Bill of Rights
So, people....as of yesterday, we are on our own. There is no "campaign for change", "campaign of unity"....just greedy, power groping, cynical politicians from both major parties, attempting to control us via a message of fear, as they consolidate our power, our protections from the excesses and abuses of our own government, from us....to them.
Obama and his party allies on capitol hill, yesterday demonstrated he [...and they are...] is willing to lie to us for the purpose of making his anticipated presidency as powerful, unaccountable, and as supportive of corporatism as Bush's presidency. My take on what happened is that, once Obama got what he wanted from supporters, confirmation that he would be the democratic nominee to run for US president in november, he and democratic congressional leaders decided to gamble on a strategy of using house republicans to grab executive power for Obama that will be in force during his entire, if he wins, first presidential term. Democrats knew that, if they gave republicans everything they demanded...almost guaranteed retroactive immunity for telecomms that accepted a letter of presidential authorization instead of search warrants signed by a judge to permit government spying on their voice and data customers and their billing records, as well as language that says, in effect, if the president says something is legal, then it is....and immunity for anyone aiding "an intelligence agency", republicans would have to vote for it. Democrats, gambling that Obama will be elected in november, by passing this horrible FISA "reform" bill, extend to Bush, from August, when present authorization for surveillance expires, to next January, a legalization of formerly illegal surveillance of calls and data of US persons. President Obama, however, will have the authority granted in the bill, for four years, since the bill does not sunset for 4-1/2 years. All it cost the democrats to do this was retroactive telecomm immunity, my political support, (and I hope the support of everyone disgusted by what Obama and the party's leaders have done....), more of our constitutional protections, and it gained them the support and the trust of their corporatist masters! Below are the criticisms of some of those who were supportive of Obama's candidacy.... Quote:
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IMO, Obama is the new George Bush...the language in his carefully worded statement confirms it...... |
I'm going with more denial & empty rationalizations.
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Host, he's talking about supporting FISA. Under the "Protect America Act", Bush's wiretaps would have still been illegal. And Obama said, in his quote, that he is going to try and get retroactive immunity removed from the Senate version.
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will, I know you were indifferent to the argument that the democrats are the only serious alternative to republican political ambitions, long before I was, so I'm sure you are reacting to the facts being reported, and to Obama's own words. Obama voted against the senate bill in february. Harry Reid selected the Rockefeller Cheney bill with telecomm immunity, instead of the bill drafted by a senate committee w/o telecomm immunity, to come to the floor for a vote. The bill passed with all republicans and 17 democrats voting for it. 29 democrats voted against it. Do you think the only thing wrong with the house bill is telecomm immunity? Do you think Obama is even serious about thinking he has any chance to remove telecomm immunity, given what Reid did in february and says now, plus the lopsided february vote? How serious does Obama sound negotiating, since he says he'll try to get the bill changed but if not....he'll vote for it anyway? Did his fear card rhetoric creep you out? Didn't the house dems simply have to offer the repubs the change to Fisa that would permit warrantless surveillance of foreign communication that originated and ended outside the US, but passed through a switch located in the US, as is claimed to be common routing, to achieve an honest and fair to the American people, Fisa modernization? Wasn't that the change that could be justified and, beyond that, wasn't the decent way for house dems and Obama to represent our best interests, to tell repubs to accept only that revision, or get nothing.....just house leaders sitting on their hands when it came to introduction of a Fisa reform bill that was not rooted in fear based power transfer to the executive or on telecomm lobbying pressure?
otto, please don't do this on this thread....do it somewhere else, 'kay? |
I think the big thing wrong with the Bill is immunity, but I recognize it's hardly the only fault. What should be happening is FISA being upheld, but when in government or anywhere does something that should happen actually happen? We all knew this was coming eventually, and I'm massively disappointed in the House for voting it through. Just like I've been disappointed time and again with the House. It's a complete fucking mess. We might as well have a Republican House, really.
It passing in it's current form in the House does not mean it will pass in it's current form in the Senate. With Obama (the likely party leader for the next 5 years) saying specifically that he's going to try and remove immunity, there is a chance that he may take control of the bandwagon in the Senate. A small chance, yes, but a chance. "It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses." If this can really get picked up on by other Democratic Senators, there's that possibility that we won't get the House version passed and we can even get a reaffirmation of FISA, which is what we need so badly right now. BTW, if this passes without retroactive immunity, it can be used once Obama takes office to pursue criminal charges against Bush and his despicable cronies. |
host: is there anything you're in favor of? I used to feel a real kinship with your posts, but lately it's nothing but a bitchfest.
Obama ADMITS he's not crazy about the bill getting passed, that it's a compromise, that it's a lot better than things have been, and that he's not through working to get rid of the troubling aspects of it. I guess taking people at their word isn't something you have the luxury of when you're on a mission like yours, eh host? |
With McCain running, I'm feeling bitchy myself. And I'm concerned about the level of zealotism towards Obama. Don't get me wrong, he's a stronger candidate than Gore or Kerry ever could have been, but it's okay to admit that he makes mistakes. Moreover, it's okay to admit that many of the Democrats in the House and many in the Senate might as well be Republican, and that the Democratic majority is only a good thing for the left when they actually vote Democratic.
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host....i think you are overstating your case for your objections, at least based on my understanding of the FISA amendments the House passed.
From the time FISA was enacted in 1978 through 2001, there was little if any objection to the law from presidents or Congress of either party....or from few if any advocacy groups. Then, from 2002-2006, Bush grossly abused and/or circumvented the law...claiming that the post 9/11 "Authorization for Use of Military Force" (AUMF) passed by Congress gave him the unilateral authority to do whatever he damn well pleased to whomever he damn well wanted. The first and most important thing these new amendments accomplish is to codify in no uncertain terms that FISA provides the sole legal authority to undertake wiretapping (or other electronic surveillance) on foreign nationals...a president can no longer claim that an AUMF gives him the authority to bypass FISA. It reaffirms and goes a bit further than the original act by requiring the DNI and the AG to certify in writing, under oath, and with supporting affidavits that for each (warrantless) wiretap of foreign nationals outside the country, that it will not include American citizens on the other end. Wiretaps of foreign nationals inside the US require a warrant and also cannot include US citizens on the other end w/o specific reasonable cause. It also reaffirms and expands prohibitions on reverse targeting..where a foreign national can be surveilled for the purpose wiretapping Americans. And it provides for greater Congressional oversight of the FISA warrant process than previously existed. The issue for many on the far left is the retroactive immunity for telecomms. Like you, I would prefer that it had been included, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. The fact is, the class actions suits against the telecomms would likely never have worked through the courts anyway - Bush would have asserted executive privilege or national security on requests for documents and the telecomms would have claimed that w/o documents from the gov, they would be restrained from conducting a reasonable defense. The latest amendments for the most part simply restore the orginal intent of FISA. Where it expands the coverage of FISA, it also expands accountability and oversight. Its not my preferred bill, but for the most part, it is an acceptable bill....thats how compromise works. |
Here's what I didn't say above: The real world of politics requires compromise. Idealism is nice, but that's all it is. Does anyone think Kucinich is going to actually get any impeaching done? His idealism is inspiring and admirable, but it's not going to produce any results.
Those who blanched at the supposed sainthood of Obama are now screaming about how disappointed they are over this. Those of us who believe him to be a new kind of politician--but still a politician--don't have much trouble with it. |
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Congressional Republicans in 06 (and likely in 08) lost in great numbers in part because of their unwillingness to compromise (particularly on the Iraq occupation) and as a result, they lost their majority. I dont want to see the same thing happen to the Democrats over the issue of retroactive immunity for the telecomms. |
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DC, you can't possibly support House Democrats voting yes on a bill that includes retroactive immunity. That, more than anything else, is why I have a problem with. The Democrats are compromising by allowing unethical and illegal legislation to pass. I can't possibly imagine an argument where that's acceptable.
We all want FISA back. Probably even Otto. |
will...I would prefer a bill w/o retroactive immunity....and despite all the shouting, it is not clear to me that the provision is illegal.
But in any case, IMO, the issue of immunity is a hollow shell for all practical purposes. As I said above, the class action civil suits against the telecomms would not likely have seen the light of day...they would have claimed that they could not exercise a defense w/o government docs and the gov would withhold the docs based on claims of vital "national security"....so what is accomplished. I would like to see Bush face a criminal trial after he leaves office and the possibility of five years in prson for each warrantless wiretap of an American citizen: Quote:
Perhaps loquitor knows if that could ever happen of if there are issues of some type of sovereign immunity that covers Bush after leaving office. |
Yeah, but for the Democratic base that immunity is the meat and potatoes of the bill. The other stuff really is immaterial because FISA is already passed and in effect, and it's fine in the form it took to try and combat future Nixons.
When they vote to approve the bill when it's gotta be crystal clear that their constituents do not want it, and more so it's clear that the bill is essentially a get out of jail free card (regardless of the possible difficulties in prosecuting the telecoms), they're compromising with the devil, not compromising for the sake of common good. And it's that kind of compromising that will likely lead to a GOP Senate soon and possibly even a House, which will severely limit Obama in cleaning up Bush's mess, which let's be honest, is why he'll be elected. To me, a non-Democrat, it seems like the same bullshit. Dems are rolling over because they're afraid of looking soft. Can you imagine how stupid someone has to be to think rolling over will make them appear strong? For too long the GOP has been the 'father' party and the Dems the 'mother'. As long as the media can make people afraid, the mother won't be who people turn to and that is exactly what the GOP wants. I'm sure you had a situation where you individuated from your father as a young man. Did you compromise or did you forge your own path? I'm sure you, like me, forged your own path in life and are stronger for it. The Dems need to do the same thing here. Instead of continuing to play the GOPs game, they need to prove to people like me and Host that they're not simply Republicans in blue ties but are actually real liberals and have real drive and, more than anything else, real fortitude and power. Until they do that they'll enjoy record low public popularity at the very least and be voted out on each cycle as people are forced to choose between the abusive husband or the victim wife. |
I was about to write "I'd like to hear Steny Hoyer explain himself about the immunity issue", then thought: maybe I ought to google that.
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I just reread FISA. It works just fine. It's punishing those who circumvent FISA that's the problem. I'm going to go ahead and take back what I said in post #2. FISA's not out of date or broken. This is an excuse to pander to idiots who actually think that the names of bills represent their meaning. \
Retroactive immunity will not protect America. It will protect private corporate interests. |
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"Take his word", when it comes to trusting him with our rights? Are you serious, have you bought in, "that deep"? Quote:
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It is ironic that an administration that claimed it wanted to "spread democracy", especially into "the middle east", cannot recognize that a vehement policy of determining personal rights status of "a free people", merely by where the US citizen or green card holder happens to be standing, inside the US, or somewhere else....rights in force sometimes, removed other times, contradicts the worth of the rights, by the example. (I was concerned to read that the "bill of rights" is relegated to a lesser status than the right of habeas, as a consequences of this mention....): Quote:
Our fucking borders are still open, unguarded, and porous, and our port secuirty is a sham. The government has not even demonstrated that it is seriously committed to securing these gaping holes. Obama, in his own statement, has played the same fear card to narrow our rights, as Bush himself has done. This is extremely disturbing to me, and it should be, to all of you, too..... Quote:
Just as serious a concern is the fact that neither Hoyer, Pelosi, or Obama has provided any detailed, sincere justification for way it was necessary to negotiate what they all described as this "compromise" in the first place, with a president who has a chronic, 30 percent approval rating, of a political party exposed as exploiting the 9/11 "fear card" incessantly, bankrupting it's own reputation and trust, since the attacks in NYC and DC. Their failure to level with us as to what motivated them to, on the surface, "cave in" to the demands of the politically crippled white house and republican congressional minority, if it wasn;t because of a political calculation to exploit the lockstep republican vote for this sellout legislation, to consolidate executive power in anticipation of a democractic sweep, in the elections just five months from now, what are we to think of them, but the worst? They are either, in rushing to do this now, cynically calculating, disingenuous, and totally disrespectful of their duty to defend our rights, not to negotiate away what are not theirs to give.....or they are what they appear on the surface to be.....incredibly weak and ineffective, not a good image for "reform" candidate Obama to wrap himself around, IMO. |
Holy shit, what does it mean when I agree with host 100%?
*sets self on fire* |
I would prefer to see the retroactive immunity provision removed, but its just not a deal breaker for me.
The most important issue is providing more safeguards, checks and balances, and oversight to prevent Bush and/or the next president from bypassing FISA or authorizing excessive wiretaps w/o warrants. Despite the complexity of the bill, I think it accomplishes that. If your issue with retroactive immunity for the telecomms is punitive rather than for the purpose of having the full truth about past actions brought to light...then its a dead deal. But if you are more concerned about the truth of what Bush did for four years, there is a relatively simple solution. Once the telecomms have retroactive immunity, both Judiciary Committees can convene oversight hearings on the bill and its intent to prevent past abuses and compel the telecomm officials to testify under oath. With immunity, they can no longer plead the 5th and Bush cant claim they are covered by executive privilege......and voila, the truth comes out. In fact, I would even encourage Obama to take this route. First, try to remove the retroactive immunity provision. If, and when that fails, introduce another amendment to make the retroactive immunity immediate and complete (no waiting for a court decision as is currently is proposed). Then call for immediate hearings after the bill is signed and bring the telecomm execs in to testify...with subpoenas if necessary. |
That sounds a lot more practical. Personally, I am not interested in persecuting the telecoms. They seem to be pawns in this whole adventure.
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IMO, they were more than pawns, they were victims (albeit willing) of WH bribery...do what we want or forget any future federal contracts for any services anywhere.
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dc_dux, and to a lesser extent, Charlatan....you're posting what I wouldn't have thought I'd be reading,, but Greenwald predicted it would hapen...
Do you know why roachboy uses the avatar he has selected, and how it compares to what is happening in this FISA "reform"/telecomm amnesty, controversy? Quote:
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I'm almost too angry with Obama to post a rational reply on this thread. He just sold out the Fourth Amendment.
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ratbastid, in case you meant to post this on this thread...it's on topic, here...
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...59#post2473659 Quote:
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss! Quote:
It's a bad bill, and there was no need for this "compromise" at this time.... Quote:
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Democrats continue to show me how empty their words were, and how they were using rhetoric for political purposes and political grandstanding. Was Bush right along, or did something actually change in the Democratic Party collective mindset that would lead them to legitimately support telecoms immunity?
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I will readily admit to being glad that I didn't vote for anyone who supported that bill. Zoe Lofgren (Cal 16th), my Congresswoman, voted against it. She even recently introduced H.R. 4182: Executive Branch Prosecutions Act of 2007. I'm quite happy with her representation of myself and my community.
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I think you are both missing one critical point ..... by most measures, there is no "the Democrats" or at least to the same extent as there is "the Republicans". Since 2006, with the election of more moderate/centrists, the Democrats have become less and less of a monolithic voting block....unllke the Republicans. The tent is bigger and the opinions and policy positions are more diverse....which is a blessing and a curse. One of Howard Deans' greatest under reported accomplishments has been the significant success since 2004 in "expanding the tent" of the Democratic party Most recent data show the Democratic party growing while the Republican party is shrinking. In 2000, voters identified with (or leaned towards) both parties at about an equal number - 40% each. In 2008, its more like 45% are selfd-identified Dems (or lean toward Dems) and 35% are self-identified Repubs (or lean towards Repub) This bigger tent presents opportunities and challenges for Obama, Pelois, Reid. I would agree that they haven't handled it as well as they could have. and no more so than on issues like the FISA reform and Iraq funding. But I would still rather be in that position than to return to being the minority party...and hopefully, with a larger majority after November, that balancing act might be just a bit easier. With that being said...I will withhold any further comment on the FISA amendments until the Senate votes later this week.... ...other than reaffirming my opinion that the House bill accomplished the most important goal for me....providing more safeguards to prevent the recurrence of abuses we saw from Bush/Cheney/Gonzales between 2001-2006 |
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I am amazed. I would have thought the "is it ground hog day" thread would have left an impression that this "reform" of FISA is a sham....information on that thread that would influence more to agree that the house dems and Obama's...actions, inactions, and statements are repugnant....to be exposed and condemned in no uncertain terms. The back of my neck is wet, and they're posting that it's raining, when it isn't. |
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DC, if you were a Congressman when this bill was presented for voting, would you have voted in favor or against? Quote:
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Then, I became more shocked with the announcement that a bill was agreed on with Blunt and Bond, and quickly posted on Hoyer's web address.....rising to astonished when it was announced that it would be voted on in the house in less than a day after it was posted, with no hearings, and half an hour allotted for debate by non-leadership house members. My shiock grew when the defacto leader of the democratic party, Obama, did not release a statement before the house voted on the bill. Nothing could have prepared me for the statement Obama belatedly did issue....because it sounded just like something Bush would have said...see my last post.... I have a feeling, _dux, that you will find a way, no matter what happens in the senate, to make me look like the "hot headed reactionary", and Obama like the reasonable, stalwart, sincere, democratic presidential candidate. "Lumping me in" with ace, (presumably to make my well documented opinions seem indistinguishable from ace's rhetorical and predictably partisan ones...). in the intro of your last post, was no accident, was it? You can put lipstick on this, all you want, dc_dux, but wishing ain't gonna make it so...... |
host...I meant no offense or compliment in "lumping you in with ace"....just saving space since you both have referred to "the Democrats" as if it were a singular voice with a singular opinion.
Will...I would have voted against the bill in the House...but I probably wound not be representing a southern or midwestern district with a diversity of voters and opinion...most of which is probably not very progressive. I would also not strong arm my colleagues in the House to vote my way, but I would encourage them to vote their conscience or in the manner that they believe best represents the opinions of their constituents. |
Here something else to chew on while we wait for the Senate on the FISA bill. Again thinking about the principled reason people objected to "illegal wiretaps", imbedded in the housing bailout legislation is a national fingerprint registry. People involved in the mortgage industry and some involved in the real estate industry will have to give their finger prints just for the privilege of doing their business and no evidnece they have broken any laws.
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I understand examining phone records of people communicating with known terrorist, but here I think government is taking a step too far. Should we expect more of the same from Washington with a Democrat in the WH and Democrats in control of Congress? Quote:
The other point I often make is that the Democrats are basically full of it. I know we will never agree on national defense issues or domestic policy issues. |
dc_dux, thank you for your last post. Believe it or not....I do have mixed emotions about posting such strong objections against the candidate who I believe I have no choice but to vote for....as the best hope for maintaining the supreme court as a branch that is not, as was shown in the habeas ruling, last week, hell bent on ruling itself into irrelevancy, with a non (anti?)-judicial philosophy that defers predictably to the judgment of the executive and legislative. I think Roberts made the argument, last week, that there is no longer a justification to keep his court open and funded.
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It follows that I want the candidate who I vote for, to win, but not at any cost, although my effort in this thread makes me feel like I'm sawing through the tree branch I am standing on..... Quote:
Ironically, the Obama defenders here, and defenders of the democratic leadership and of the bill they drafted and rushed through the house....are generally regarded as much more "reasonable" than I am. I think they think they are, too! |
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Republicans have talking points, and so do Democrats. Democrats have been unified, on the surface it seems more so now than in the past. It is my belief that Democrats in Congress have not been acting and speaking independently. Generally, I think Democrats in Congress do as they are instructed - by party leadership. |
What happens when conscience meets constituency? By conscience I don't mean ideology, but rather a more basic sense of right and wrong. Clearly, despite how simple or difficult it would be to prosecute telecoms, it would be wrong to grand any retroactive immunity for organizations that aided in breaking the law. I cannot imagine a sense of morality that would view that as right, only as either excusable as a necessary evil or as you have said that it's irrelevant in that one cannot prosecute the telecoms regardless of the provision.
I don't see that as compromise, but rather surrender. Again. The Aceventuras of the world would likely suggest that the Democrats are weak, which simply gives them a string to pull at. Host and I would see the other side of the coin: those whom we have trusted and voted in the office to take a stand are compromising with tyranny. I don't intend to be melodramatic or wax hyperbole, but really there are times when compromise is appropriate and times when it is not. Between 2006 and now, we have expected the Democratic House and narrowly Democratic Senate to fulfill campaign promises for which the constituents voted them to office. We want an end to the war, we want economic stability, we want an end to runaway spending on military, we want and end of the gathering of power to the executive, we want actual protection from that which endangers us, and we want our rights restored. Unfortunately, this recent bill exemplifies the inconsistency of the steps forward being made. Yes, there have been some victories, but there has been squandered opportunity after squandered opportunity to relentlessly fight against Bush and his policies. |
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Could you summarize your views on telecom immunity really quickly? I would assume that it's simply "they were helping to find terrorists" or something.
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I predict that ace is fine with his calling records, and maybe his internet search logs being given by his phone or ISP provider to the government, just for the asking, legal requirements for probable cause and a judge approved warrant, waived, in secret, by the executive.... |
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2) Telecoms acted in good faith. 3) It is reasonable to review phone records involving calls to/from known terrorists. 4) No evidence was produced showing anyone was actually damaged. 5) The litigation would be excessively costly with class action lawsuits. 6) The only real winners would be trial attorneys. 7) The costs of litigation would be passed on to American consumers. 8) US telecoms are already behind international competition, litigation would divert resources from investment. 9) The original legislation lacked clarity. 10) I would have done the same as Bush, given the circumstances. Quote:
Wanna predict what I am going to say when Obama, as President, is going to commit to troops in Iraq through his entire first term? |
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ace, the buck does not "stop with Bush". The telecomms broke the law, as it existed at the time. The government has also broken the law, but different law.... the telecomms and the government had different obligations and exposure, under the law, because, in 1986, congress envisioned that the government would attempt to get information from telecomms without following the law. People have been damaged....what is your right to be "secure in your papers...in your hone", worth to you, ace...do you value that right at all? "Secure" refers "unwarranted" government intrusion.... hence the term, "unwarranted"...without the legally required warrants....law in force at the time of the lawbreaking, unless a reasonable expectation that a massive data mining "Op", circa 2005, was justified by an "emergency level", threat to our domestic security. the telecomms are not even trying to assert that in court, as a defense.... Quote:
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That doesn't sit well with me either, I'd rather it be fixed, with no worry of litigation resulting in dollar payouts or losses, since I get to pay for it in the end. |
Thank you for clarifying.
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Keep in mind there is raw data and then there is usable data. I think your point here also supports the notion that we don't have intelligence people sitting around listening to my calls to my wife. |
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If they had the evidence to demonstrate that one or more parties was a "terrorist", they could have EASILY gotten a warrant from FISA, which in it's history has turned down less than 5 requests. Quote:
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the way the telephone surveillance thing works, ace, is by way of a fairly crude oracle data-mining system that operates off of keywords. so if you were talking to your wife and used some of the keywords, chances are that your conversations would be monitored. who knows what these parameters are? if there's no fixed definition of "terrorist" they could be anything.
if the parameters were fixed early in this lovely period of soft authoritarian rule, during which there was no particular distinction between those who opposed the bush administration politically and "terrorist" then they could be most anything. so it is entirely possible that you--or any of us---could have been or are being monitored. but then again, maybe not. it's just like that. if you exclude questions of principle--which you do--that's what you're left with. ====================== it seems to me that the crux of your argument is: you are quite sure that the "terrorist" is a coherent category because whatever it may mean, it doesn't mean you. this is the reverse side of your assumption of "good faith" everywhere amongst those who you support politically---which is, in turn, the reverse of your assumption of "bad faith" everywhere amongst those whom you do not support politically. this may cut to a premise-level disagreement: speaking for myself, i never found *anything* compelling or even coherent about the bush people's notion of "the terrorist"....apparently, you imagine that term to have a meaning. it is obvious that most of the folk who have a Problem with the wire-tapping actions also have at the least doubts about the coherence of the notion of "terrorism"... if this is accurate, then all we are "arguing" about the theological question of whether you believe in the mystical power of the "terrorist" to be many and one, everywhere and nowhere and to redeem the republicans from certain disaster, all at the same time. if the center of your support for the bush people was "national security" then it would follow that for you fear of an Enemy is a central motivation for your politics. i don't think there is an Enemy. i think there are legions who oppose the united states for political reasons, and who often have every justification for doing so as a function of the various policy choices which have enabled the "amurican way of life" to metastasize as it has over the past 30 years. you no doubt do not share this view. this may lead to another underlying matter of whether you can relativize the "amurican way of life" or not, whether you can see it as an outcome of systems which are not rational in the main or whether you see it in the way you see the chair you sit on, as necessary and inevitable and given because your ass is in it. reversed: the "amurican way of life" is necessary because it's given, or its a result of larger-scale choices that have particular outcomes, intentional and not, good and not, and so is something that can be thought about as a problem and not simply accepted as given. but if this is the differend, there really is no debate happening. |
Who was it that said "our enemies are never as evil as we think they are" or something like that? It keeps popping into my mind.
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Thanks for adding clarity. Quote:
Yes, I know the above is full of moral problems and that I should be more evolved, etc, etc. But again, I am being honest with you, even though it makes me appear heartless. I really do have a heart, and my friends and family know I would sacrifice almost anything for them.:) |
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...98#post2473898 ...... Quote:
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Yes, I'd take a bullet for George W. Bush knowing full well the consequences. |
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I am going to make it even worse. I thought we were at war before Bush was even elected President. In my view we were in an undeclared (on our part) war. Our enemy decared war on us and attacked us many times before our Congress authorized our Commander in Chief to use military force. It seem you have a text book view of war, where wars a formerly declared, with declarations, typed double spaced, in triplicate - everyone wears nice neat uniforms and carry well defined national flags. Some wars don't fall into those nice little text book versions of what you may think a war is. |
Legally, we're not at war. We were at war with the Iraqi government, but they were defeated and victory was proclaimed. Now? We're at war with "terrorists" (which is a blanket term for anyone who fights against us). You can't actually declare war against "terrorists", though. Without a properly defined enemy, there is no war, and as such the US is not currently at war and as such there is no war time authority.
Or would you like war time authority to be extended to the war on illiteracy and the war on crime? Because there is no difference between the war on crime and the war on terrorism so far as the law is concerned. |
I highlighted this in post #19 on this thread, but...the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that, if I had posted a defense of the non-amnesty part of the bill passed in the house, last friday, the following criticism of the bill would be a key point for me to hone in on, if I was serious about supporting my opinion that the bill is, "not that bad":
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Obama, at least his spokesperson, today....and the house leadership, are not lowering my level of concern: Quote:
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This is based entirely on the laws the war makers make, the winner then becomes legally justified, right? I would not kid myself into thinking a country or people could fight a "moral" war. Nor do I kid myself about our history, everything we enjoy in this country is the result of war. The result of our past countrymen, killing, destroying property, taking property and resources by force. Now we have people enjoying the benefits of war, who want to say war is just or unjust, good or bad, legal or illegal, needed or not needed. We live in a world where you fight or you die, you make war or you risk your life and liberty. As long as we have something someone else may want, war is inevitable. You are either at war or preparing for war. Let's stop pretending we live in a world different than that. |
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We are not at war. We are not at war. We are not at war. |
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Regardless, without rules, wars will become uncontrollable. That's when the really bad stuff happens. Have you ever seen a woman raped, have her gentiles mutilated and then murdered after spending hours bleeding in agony? That happens. A lot. Perhaps you can attribute that to human nature, but I call it war crimes and I say that no victory is worth that. |
Here is what I know any question I ask will be a red herring, or you will simple avoid answering.
A wartime leader defines the behaviors of his troops. A leader by definition gives order where there would otherwise be chaos. War crimes are defined and upheld by the victor. We are clearly at the base level of this issue, your comments about legality and war, rules of warfare, etc, indicates to me that if you were a wartime leader, you would be defeated. |
War crimes are defined by laws and conventions signed by the warring parties. In the case of the US, we've signed the Geneva Conventions and are legally obliged to follow those conventions to the letter whether we're at war or not.
If I were a wartime leader, you'd be screwed because I'm a pacifist. Still, there would be a decent chance of winning because I (unlike most wartime leaders) seek to understand why my enemy fights. Considering that every conflict that the US has been involved in since WWII has essentially been unnecessary, maybe we could use an ambassador instead of a warrior. |
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Controlled War? how about more oxymorons like Jumbo Shrimp. Waxing nostalgic about the honor of battle with lines of infantry is silly. War is war. Quote:
Since you asked the question.. have you? |
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What is a pacifist? I did look it up but I don't understand it. Since you are one, perhaps you can help. Quote:
How would violent crimes be addressed by pacifist? I have a few other questions, but before I go through the effort we can start or end with these. |
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Lots of them are murdered. But back to the topic, could this be why the dems approved the new retro immunity? http://themoderatevoice.com/politics...votes-on-fisa/ Quote:
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murdered...you can't predict what someone will do, even if they don't NEED to doesn't mean that they won't. Nicole duFresne was murdered in my neighborhood. Quote:
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Coalition deaths in Iraq are now 4109. Wounded sits at about 30,333. Coalition deaths in Afghanistan are now 788. |
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Why don't we ask Tank Man how successful his pacifist protest has been? I'm sure he can speak ad naseum about how successful his protest was as there were zero fatalities. Oh we can't. No one steps forward to admit being him. Claims of him being executed are speculated. |
There's no evidence that he was executed. Anyone can pull a gun. It takes real bravery to stand in front of a tank. That guy is my fucking hero.
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The Chinese know how to run a country, at least when you compare Eastern Siberia and Mongolia to Beijing, which is the route I took. He may be your hero (and I'm 100% behind that sentiment, actually), but he is almost certainly dead and almost equally certainly died a gruesome death after being tortured for an extended period. The Chinese leared how to run a country from the Soviets. |
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So Tank Man, where are you? Why don't you answer the call to your fans? If he's so brave, why doesn't he continue to speak out? or come forward at all? Why would he be in hiding? I'm sure in 17 years he could have escaped the country found refugee status or political asylum in some western country. Because if he's still alive he doesn't have the guns some one else does and fears for his life. |
It's really only a question of whether your life is for you, or for all of humanity.
Let's go ahead and assume that the man died while leaving us an indelible image of the power of peaceful resistance. If he's got his life constituted not for himself but for all humanity--or even just all of China--then his death is well worth it. Gandhi's life wasn't for himself. Reverend King's life wasn't for himself. Their lives were handed over to a bigger concern than their own survival, and they were willing to lay themselves down in service of that concern. This thread is now officially Far Afield. |
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Thank you for the reminder. Quote:
I really don't know why Americans are surprised and shocked that things happen with lying, graft, corruption, embezzlement, nepotism, and cronyism. It isn't much different than any other countries, the biggest difference is that we have due process to criminalize their actions and can remove them from office since they don't serve uncontestable life terms in office. It seems to me that many think that politicians are above being human. |
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Cynthetiq, I'm disgusted that you'd reply to "Gandhi and Dr. King" with "suicide bomber". I'm looking to see if there's another word to describe my reaction, but there's really not: I'm disgusted.
Were you deliberately trying to be offensive? Are you so desperate to score points in this argument that you're going to lump the two paragons of NON-violence into the same group with suicide bombers? Really?? |
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Vaclev Hamel who led the peaceful "intellectuals" anti-government movement in the Czech Republic is alive. Cory Aquino who led the peaceful yellow revolution in the Philippines is alive. The leaders of the peaceful rose revolution in Georgia are alive. Nelson Mandela is alive....happy 90th birthday! /end threadjack |
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In a discussion about nonviolence you tried to re-frame the discussion by switching to martyrdom and in that same post you compared the man in Tienanmen Square to a suicide bomber.
Two very bright people came to the exact same conclusion about your comparison, Cynth. It may be time for self reflection. |
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I understood what you said, Cynthetiq. Explaining it to me further hasn't handled my disgust.
Neither Gandhi nor King "voluntarily suffered death", by the way. They were both assassinated. Just so you've got your history straight. MASSIVE difference between killing for your values and being killed for them. I wouldn't call either of them martyrs, in the sense generally meant by the term. |
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Also, what Rat said. |
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In my view a pacifist will enjoy the benefits from the past use of violence by others or the potential future use of violence by their neighbors/police/army/etc willing to defend life, liberty and property to fend off those who would otherwise commit violent acts to take those things, while a martyr is at least willing to make a sacrifice. It is easy to be a pacifist when nothing is at risk. |
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Voluntarily suffered death... I guess you didn't continue with the rest of the definition which ends with the word "religion." They were assasinated for their beliefs, I don't disput that, but "a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle" is befitting of their death. People have spoken that MLK was a martyr for the cause of civil rights. Ghandi, not that I've read. But if Tank Man was killed, he may very well be a martyr for the cause and freedoms of the Chinese people. Benigno Aquino is considered a martyr to the Filipinos and probably the lynchpin to the downfall of the Marcos regime. I'm not trying to make inflammatory comparisions here, I'm just stating like it or not the defintions as they are cut both ways, massive difference notwithstanding. |
Cyn, I for one see your point and sort of agree. Perhaps a better definition of a martyr would include that the observer agrees with the actor's decisions and politics. Which means that Joan of Arc isn't a martyr anymore.
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Also, keep in mind that Ghandi, King and other who had great accomplishments through the use of nonviolence, had leverage that gave them the power to make demands. In both cases they certainly had what was right on their side, but it was the possibility of great civil unrest and violence that added to their leverage. I would say they used a non-violent approach to accomplishing their goals, but in the end we don't know if they would have sanctioned violence. I know King had no objections to the national guard being used to protect children going to school, hence the threatened use of violence to protect life and liberty.
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"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." -Gandhi "Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary." -Gandhi "I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life." -Gandhi (a little martyrish there, eh Cynth?) "Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And one of my personal favorites: "Let no man pull you low enough to hate him." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. By the way: easy to be a pacifist when there's nothing at risk? You're damn right, ace: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Think he was talking about how big a gun you're standing with in times of challenge and controversy? |
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I'm not sure how to route this back to the OP, but I will try again... Quote:
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"Be the change you want to see in the world." “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” "Be the change you want to see in the world." “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” and two from Dr. King: “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” “Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better. will, okay, you win... :expressionless: |
Ahem.... is there still room for an ON Topic post on this page?
If I've missed Obama's "finest moment", in his efforts TO PREVENT "the warrantless wiretapping", he vowed last november, to oppose, or in his new, watered down commitment to try to remove telecomm amnesty from the house passed, FISA "reform" bill, please point me to it ! http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/ro...n=2&vote=00158 The senate voted on wednesday to proceed to debate on the FISA bill. Those opposing this motion to move closer to a vote on the bill itself, garnered only 15 votes... Obama didn't vote. 80 senators voted to move the bill along, but some, including Reid and Spector, have stated they will not vote for the final version of the bill, if it still includes telecomm amnesty. Obama has said he will do the opposite: Watch Obama explain, this week, how being against any bill that included telecomm amnesty in January, is consistent with saying now, that he will vote for a bill that includes telecomm amnesty if it comes up for a final vote for senate passage: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ostid-updateC6 Quote:
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Anybody willing to decipher what Obama's position is, compared to what it was back in January, and why it should not be a cause for concern, now? |
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No politicians aren't different. I'm not surprised that Obama waffles on an issue. He's a politician. It's part of the definition of the game of politics. I'll even add: flip flop, ride fence, talk both ways from his mouth... host, if you've followed politics with the intelligence you've got, why are you surprised at this? or is this more because you believe that politicians must do as they say, promised, or what you believe should be right? Do you believe that American politicians are above being human and suffering the same fates and foils of their counterparts around the world? |
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I am not the one who has posted in these threads that Obama is a different kind of leader...not your run of the mill politician. I have not urged anyone to "trust him". or to "take him at his word". Conversely, I have not accused Obama of being "too liberal", or posted that he is "the most liberal member of the senate". I recall that instead, I've posted that Obama is positioned "to the right of republican president Dwight Eisenhower".... that his call to increase US ground forces by 92,000 troops make him more a militarist, than a reformer. I'll admit that I have probably been wrong about one thing, in posting my opinions that Obama faces a very difficult task; attracting enough votes to win in the general election in November. I did not expect that he would say or do anything that he and his handlers think will help him get elected. Since last thursday, I've been thinking that he will say whatever it takes....the constitution be damned.... I've posted that I do not see what others post that they see in Obama. Through it all, none of my specifics are answered with specifics. (Disclaimer: This is an example, not an attempt to single out this poster, who usually thoroughly backs up the points he makes in his posts...) Quote:
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yeah--it's a little strange---if you have not particularly found the construction of obama as some left-type to be more than a conservative hallucination, there's not a whole lot to talk about in the fisa bill matter, simply because it follows--not from a facile cynicism regarding "politicians" in general, but from his own politics. my position is that obama appears to be part of a less self-enclosed, self-confirming ideological world than mccain, who is obviously in a position of trying to find some way to simultaneously distance himself from and maintain continuity with the delusional space of populist conservatism of the past 30 years. but i don't see obama as offering anything remotely like an alternate ideology to neoliberalism, anything like a viewpoint that i can say *will* result in coherence in the face of structural problems---but the fact that his is a more open position leads me to think he *might* be able to respond coherently, where mccain will not.
i also dont see obama as holding the bush people to account for much. my suspicion is that this would follow from the requirements of maintaining system legitimacy--there are limits to how far one could personalize the disaster that has been the past 8 years, associate it with the "bad apples" of the bush administration and thereby limit it to a question of individuals deviating from a trajectory otherwise rational, operating within a system that is otherwise legitimate. but i didn't expect anything. i can't say as i'm disappointed. what seems different with host is that there's a degree of disappointment i sense lurking about inside the anger. but maybe i'm wrong. |
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