Maybe some good news out of Iraq - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Conclamo Ludus · 06-26-2003, 12:18 PM

This should be read very carefully and everyone should consider the source. It is an open letter and one must consider the political position this man is in. Regardless it is interesting and I'm sure there is some truth to it. It is part of his job to keep troop morale high though. Worth the read to everyone.

Open Letter Link

Quote:

Sitrep: Iraq

Editor's Note: This is an open letter from U.S. Army Maj. Eric Rydbom in Iraq to the First Lutheran Church of Richmond Beach in Shoreline, Wash. Rydbom is Deputy Division Engineer of the 4th Infantry Division.

It has been a while since I have written to my friends at First Lutheran Church about what's really going on here in Iraq. The news you watch on TV is exaggerated, sensationalized and selective. Good news doesn't sell.

The stuff you don't hear about on CNN?

Let's start with electrical power production in Iraq. The day after the war was declared over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. Just 45 days later, in a partnership between the Army, the Iraqi people and some private companies, there are now 3200 megawatts (Mw) of power being produced daily, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 Mw. Downed power lines (big stuff, 400 Kilovolt (Kv) and 132 Kv) are being repaired and are about 70 percent complete.

Then there is water purification. In central Iraq between Baghdad and Mosul, home of the 4th Infantry Division, water treatment was spotty at best. The facilities existed, but the controls were never implemented. Simple chemicals like Chlorine for purification and Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) for sediment settling (the Tigris River is about as clear as the Mississippi River) were in very short supply or not used at all. When chlorine was used, it was metered by the scientific method of guessing.

So some people got pool water to drink and some people got water with lots of little things floating around in it. We are slowly but surely solving that. Contracts for repairs to facilities that are only 50 percent or less operational are being let, chemicals are being delivered, although we don't have the metering problem solved yet ( ... but again, it's only been 45 days).

How about oil and fuel? Well the war was all about oil wasn't it? You bet it was. It was all about oil for the Iraqi people! They have no other income, they produce nothing else. Oil is 95 percent of the Iraqi GNP. For this nation to survive, it must sell oil.

The Refinery at Bayji is [operating] at 75 percent of capacity producing gasoline. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk (Oil Central) and Bayji will be repaired by tomorrow (2 June). LPG, what all Iraqis use to cook and heat with, is at 103 percent of normal production and we, the U.S. Army, are ensuring it is being distributed fairly to all Iraqis.

You have to remember that only three months ago, all these things were used by the Saddam regime as weapons against the population to keep them in line. If your town misbehaved, gasoline shipments stopped, LPG pipelines and trucks stopped, water was turned off, power was turned off.

Now, until exports start, every drop of gasoline produced goes to the Iraqi people. Crude oil is being stored and the country is at 75 percent capacity right now. They need to export or stop pumping soon, so thank the U.N. for the delay.

All LPG goes to the Iraqi people everywhere. Water is being purified as best it can be, but at least its running all the time to everyone.

Are we still getting shot at? Yep.

Are American soldiers still dying? Yep, about one a day from my outfit, the 4th Infantry Division, most in accidents, but dead is dead.

If we are doing all this for the Iraqis, why are they shooting at us?

The general Iraqi population isn't shooting at us. There are still bad guys who won't let go of the old regime. They are Ba'ath party members (Read Nazi Party, but not as nice) who have known nothing but and supported nothing but the regime all of their lives. These are the thugs for the regime who caused many to disappear in the night. They have no other skills. At least the Nazis [in Germany] had jobs and a semblance of a national infrastructure that they could go back to after the war, as plumbers, managers, engineers, etc. These people have no skills but terror. They are simply applying their skills ... and we are applying ours.

There is no Christian way to say this, but they must be eliminated and we are doing so with all the efficiency we can muster. Our troops are shot at literally everyday by small arms and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs). We respond. One hundred percent of the time, the Ba''ath party guys come out with the short end of the stick.

The most amazing thing to me is that they don't realize that if they stopped shooting at us, we would focus on fixing things more quickly and then leave back to the land of the Big PX. The more they shoot at us, the longer we will have to stay.

Lastly, all of you please realize that 90 percent of the damage you see on TV was caused by Iraqis, not by us and not by the war. Sure, we took out a few bridges from military necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government headquarters buildings with 2000 lb. laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), [but] he had plenty to spare.

But, any damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was all caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throes or from much of the Iraqi civilians looting the places.

Could we have prevented it? Nope.

We can and do now, but 45 days ago, the average soldier was fighting for his own survival and trying to get to his objectives as fast as possible. He was lucky to know what town he was in much less be informed enough to know who owned what or have the power to stop 1,000 people from looting and burning a building by himself.

The United States and our allies, especially Great Britain, are doing a very noble thing here. We stuck our necks out on the world's chopping block to free an entire people from the grip of a horrible terror that was beyond belief.

I've already talked the weapons of mass destruction thing to death - bottom line, who cares? This country was one big conventional weapons ammo dump anyway. We have probably destroyed more weapons and ammo in the last 30 days than the U.S. Army has ever fired in the last 30 years (remember, this is a country the size of Texas), so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here. If we find it great if we don't, so what?

I'm living in a "guest palace" on a 500-acre palace compound with 20 palaces with like facilities built in half a dozen towns all over Iraq that were built for one man. Drive down the street and out into the countryside five miles away like I have and see all the families of 10 or more, all living in mud huts and herding the two dozen sheep on which their very existence depends ...then tell me why you think we are here.

WMD is an important issue. We have to find them wherever they may be (in Syria?), but that is not our real motivator. Don't let it be yours either.

Respectfully,

ERIC RYDBOM
MAJOR, ENGINEER
Deputy Division Engineer
4th Infantry Division

The_Dude · 06-26-2003, 12:24 PM

err.. why is this guy writing this to a church?

Conclamo Ludus · 06-26-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
err.. why is this guy writing this to a church?

I think he's reporting in to his friends back home, but decided to make it an open letter for whomever is interested.

The_Dude · 06-26-2003, 12:41 PM

i really have a hard time buying this. this sounds more like an essay than a letter.

samremy · 06-27-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
i really have a hard time buying this. this sounds more like an essay than a letter.

Yep...definitely sounds like propaganda.

Conclamo Ludus · 06-27-2003, 09:46 AM

Some people wouldn't accept good news out of Iraq no matter what. Some people also don't want things to go well in Iraq so that it will taint W. Personally I don't care, I want Iraqis to live better at this point. I disagree that WMD's don't matter. They do. They need to be found both for legitimacy and for safety which is the hardest part I have with the letter. How could a military man say the WMD's don't matter. WMD's matter most because we don't want to catch the detonated side of them.

For the optimist this letter is at least refreshing. I'm sure how much of it is inflated and spun into sounding better than it is, but that is part of the letter writer's job for the sake of morale back home.

I'd like to think if 10 percent of that letter is true then we are making some progress. The part about the opposition they are facing makes some sense.

Does anybody have anything to refute some of his claims? I've heard that part of the reason they didn't have chlorine is because they weren't allowed to because of the sanctions. Don't know how true that is though.

If you believe the letter is propaganda, which parts? Or can you dismiss all of it because it came from the military? What clues you in to propaganda?

There's no room for outright dismissal in debate. A dismissal isn't a critique its ignoring it. Ignoring only leads to ignorance.

Lebell · 06-27-2003, 09:57 AM

I don't have a hard time believing it at all.

Why?

For one thing, it's too easy to check out.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 10:24 AM

personally, i just wouldnt write a letter to my church in the format used.

Conclamo Ludus · 06-27-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
personally, i just wouldnt write a letter to my church in the format used.

Is that why you aren't buying it?

I assume it was written to be read aloud by the pastor or something. That's the way it would seem. From a format standpoint it seems effective. Its simply a letter to inform the congregation on the news in Iraq and what it's like there. I found it at a website called Soldiers For The Truth. I left the link too so anybody can consider the source. I thought there would be a little more discussion on it than this. Ah well.

Darkblack · 06-27-2003, 12:11 PM

"....so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here. If we find it great if we don't, so what?

....WMD is an important issue. We have to find them wherever they may be (in Syria?), but that is not our real motivator. Don't let it be yours either."

-------------------------------

I am glad everything is going well and everything but this part I have a problem with....

It is the entire reason we went there. The only reason. If it was to free people there are 100 other places we could have went and what makes those places not as important?

I have a feeling this was written to try and soften the blow when they say yep, there was no WMD's, but hey, we did free these poeple and got them clean water and stuff....right!?!

seretogis · 06-27-2003, 12:31 PM

There was never just one reason that we went there. However, the only one that you heard about in the media was WMDs simply because it makes a better story to say that Iraq may launch nukes at us at any moment, than to suggest we are out to take down a Hitler-esque figure. The "motto" for those in favor of the war has been "Liberate Iraq" since day one. The only people (civilians) that you heard clammoring about WMDs were those who were against the war in the first place.

TaLoN · 06-27-2003, 12:52 PM

oh come on liberals...it is obvious that you are the only ones rejecting this because you don't want to admit that being against war is stupid. to this day i have never heard any good reason for being against war. This war has proved that there are things MUCH MUCH more important than peace.

geep · 06-27-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
personally, i just wouldnt write a letter to my church in the format used.

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
i dont want to swear allegiance to anything related to god.

Did I miss something here?

The guy is trying to be upbeat about something he doesn't think is getting a fair shake "back home". Just exactly what is it that leads you to believe he's not sincere?

andyc · 06-27-2003, 01:38 PM

This smells like propaganda. Still waiting for those WMD to be found. Remeber, this was the reason given for attacking them in the first place.

He mentioned looking for WMD in Syria, why not look in Israel as well ?

geep · 06-27-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andyc
This smells like propaganda. Still waiting for those WMD to be found. Remeber, this was the reason given for attacking them in the first place.

He mentioned looking for WMD in Syria, why not look in Israel as well ?

Propaganda ? There's the pot calling the kettle something not politically correct! We did not go into Iraq just to search for WMD's. Either way this instant gratification society we live in can't wait to find them but could wait 13 years for Saddam Hussein to comply with the cease fire that ended Gulf War 1? Anything the left doesn't like they call propaganda- it's part of their propaganda campaign.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 03:07 PM

my atheistic views have nothing to do w/ this.

you just dont write a letter like this to a religious institution

geep · 06-27-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
my atheistic views have nothing to do w/ this.

you just dont write a letter like this to a religious institution

No.. but you do write it to your FRIENDS at the religious institution.

smooth · 06-27-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geep
Propaganda ?

...this instant gratification society we live in...could wait 13 years...?

Anything the left doesn't like they call propaganda- it's part of their propaganda campaign.

You've really posted some rambling posts today.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geep
No.. but you do write it to your FRIENDS at the religious institution.

i havent written to anybody in a long time, years maybe

Dragonlich · 06-27-2003, 09:27 PM

Question: does "propaganda" mean that something is automatically false?

Suppose for a second that most of what the guy/PR department writes is true. Wouldn't this letter be a great propaganda tool then? Suppose it's all false, how long do you think it'll take the news media to investigate and report that - and how much of a problem would that discovery be to US propaganda efforts???

Do not dismiss good news just because it sounds too good to be true, in light of other bad news. the news media go for stories that sell, and writing about how great Iraq is with the US in control is *not* going to sell newspapers...

The_Dude · 06-28-2003, 08:32 AM

let me point out that this has not been confirmed by any independant sources.

Dragonlich · 06-28-2003, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
let me point out that this has not been confirmed by any independant sources.

Ah, but has it been *denied* by anyone? We hear stories about the bad things that happen, but never hear about the good things. For example, has anyone heard anything about lootings recently?

Let's put it this way: let's say that every time you look at the evening news, you hear about dozens of murders that happened overnight in Los Angeles. Suppose you never hear anything else, and have never been to LA. Would you assume that LA is dangerous and deadly; that it in fact is pretty much a war-zone?

The things this guy says make perfect sense; it is highly unlikely that the things we see on TV are very widespread in Iraq, or we'd be hearing about hundreds of US soldiers dying every day...

clsintampa · 06-28-2003, 02:36 PM

Sorry..I coudn't care less about the plight of the Iraqis before the war...and I couldn't care less now. they don't want us there even though we thru out Saddam...why do we bother. he was NO THREAT to the Cont. US. We need to straighten out our own shit before we go elsewhere IMO.

Dragonlich · 06-28-2003, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clsintampa
Sorry..I coudn't care less about the plight of the Iraqis before the war...and I couldn't care less now. they don't want us there even though we thru out Saddam...why do we bother. he was NO THREAT to the Cont. US. We need to straighten out our own shit before we go elsewhere IMO.

Apparently, if this letter is to be believed, they DO want the US there. Some old Ba'ath party bastards want you gone so that they can grab power again (Saddam is still hiding, after all). He was indeed no threat to the continental US, just to your oil supply, which could have crippled your economy. But that's it, really.

If everyone were to "straighten their own shit" before going anywhere, nobody would help anyone else out at all. Every country in the world has "shit" to straighten...

Sparhawk · 06-29-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
There was never just one reason that we went there. However, the only one that you heard about in the media was WMDs simply because it makes a better story to say that Iraq may launch nukes at us at any moment, than to suggest we are out to take down a Hitler-esque figure. The "motto" for those in favor of the war has been "Liberate Iraq" since day one. The only people (civilians) that you heard clammoring about WMDs were those who were against the war in the first place.

Quote:

Originally posted by geep
Propaganda ? There's the pot calling the kettle something not politically correct! We did not go into Iraq just to search for WMD's. Either way this instant gratification society we live in can't wait to find them but could wait 13 years for Saddam Hussein to comply with the cease fire that ended Gulf War 1? Anything the left doesn't like they call propaganda- it's part of their propaganda campaign.

What is this, we can't settle for revisionist history, so now we're making it revisionist present? Or revisionist current events? Yes, he was an evil, crazy dictator. But the reason we went in there was because he was an evil, crazy dictator who could launch, sell to terrorists, etc WMDs to be used against the US. The administration made a mistake. You would categorize it as an honest mistake, but it was a mistake nonetheless. Please stop trying to spin it as something else.

Dragonlich · 06-29-2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
What is this, we can't settle for revisionist history, so now we're making it revisionist present? Or revisionist current events? Yes, he was an evil, crazy dictator. But the reason we went in there was because he was an evil, crazy dictator who could launch, sell to terrorists, etc WMDs to be used against the US. The administration made a mistake. You would categorize it as an honest mistake, but it was a mistake nonetheless. Please stop trying to spin it as something else.

I take it you mean the administration made the mistake of thinking Iraq had WMDs or something? I'd like to point out that it is not certain at all that Iraq had them, or did NOT have them. Only time will tell. It is becoming more and more apparent that Saddam was indeed hiding *something*, and has always been capable of building WMDs, even under UN sanctions.

I think the reasoning should be something like this: Saddam is known to be anti-US. He is *able* to build WMDs, and has done so in the past. He might pose a threat to the oil supplies, and thus the world economy. He also supports terror groups, and is a PR nightmare in Arab countries, where the UN sanctions are seen as evil and part of a larger US anti-Arab/anti-Muslim strategy. All these reasons pointed at one option: regime change. The US government just had to persuade the regular American Joe that his life might be in danger, and they could send in an army to solve the problem. The reason du jour was the WMDs, because Saddam was always obstructing UN anti-WMD inspections...

Conclamo Ludus · 06-29-2003, 12:55 PM

For me, I don't really care if WMD's were the main reason for Bush or not. The important thing is that we know Hussein had them at some point, but now we don't know where they are. That's the scariest part about it. For me its not about finding WMD's for legitmacy for the war, its about finding WMD's so some whack-job doesn't use them. They have to be secured and destroyed. Its in everyone's best interest for that. Just for safety's sake at this point.

Downtownat10 · 06-29-2003, 01:58 PM

I think the thing that I find the most humor in is that before the war, Bush was saying how we needed to go find the WMDs, but ALSO how Iraq needed regime change, and Saddam needed to be out of power. Don't people remember when the US told Saddam that he had a couple of days to get the hell out of Iraq, else we were going to get rid of him? That fact alone tells me that it was about more than finding WMDs. Also, everyone will go on and on about how the war was about oil, and nothing more, yet they still demand to find WMDs. If you are dead-set in your beliefs that it was about oil, don't bother worrying about everything else. Sure, I think it would be great if some WMDs were found, because I personally am fairly certain they are somewhere, else Saddam would have probably brought out evidence of their destruction (and by "their," I mean any of them, even the ones we gave him years ago). But, we keep hearing about how if they aren't found, the US will be in lots of trouble. How long will people say that? In just over a year, Bush & Co. will (hopefully) be out of office, and that will make it a bit more difficult to hate him. Even still, though, while there is plenty of talk about finding WMDs, there isn't much talk anymore about what will happen if they don't exist.

Personally, I can only hope that the letter is real. Whether you were for or against the war, or Bush, or Tony Blair, or Michael Moore, can you honestly say that the citizens of Iraq led a better life under Saddam? He wasn't exactly Barney, telling you he loves you, you love him, and you're a happy family.

Of course, what do I know?

Ace_of_Lobster · 06-29-2003, 07:40 PM

According to this guy, countries should be lineing up to be invaded by America.

How can people believe this garbage?

geep · 06-30-2003, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
What is this, we can't settle for revisionist history, so now we're making it revisionist present? Or revisionist current events?

We have learned much from our liberal friends.

Sparhawk · 06-30-2003, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geep
We have learned much from our liberal friends.

The_Dude · 06-30-2003, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
Some old Ba'ath party bastards want you gone so that they can grab power again (Saddam is still hiding, after all).

it's got to be more than the bath party if we're losing a soldier a day

Dragonlich · 06-30-2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
it's got to be more than the bath party if we're losing a soldier a day

Do you have *any* idea at all how big the Ba'ath party was, or Saddam's secret police? Even if it's just a couple of hundred extremists, you'd still easily lose a soldier a day.

After all, the Palestinians are easily able to kill (on avarage) one Israeli person a day, and everyone is always claiming it's just a bunch of extremists that are doing the killing...

Do not underestimate the power of a dedicated murderer with an AK-47, in a country that supports the guy (be it out of love or fear).

The_Dude · 06-30-2003, 11:54 AM

maybe all the TV stations (yes, INCLUDING fox news) are biased, but i've seen several mass turnouts of protests against US occupation.

Conclamo Ludus · 06-30-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
According to this guy, countries should be lineing up to be invaded by America.

How can people believe this garbage?

Countries like Liberia?
Link to Liberia Thread

Other thread story posted thanks to LD.

Ace_of_Lobster · 06-30-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus
Countries like Liberia?
Link to Liberia Thread

Other thread story posted thanks to LD.

Ah yes, the fine line between assisting a country in a state of civil war and a full on invasion of a stable country.

Ahem.

Downtownat10 · 06-30-2003, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
Ah yes, the fine line between assisting a country in a state of civil war and a full on invasion of a stable country.

Ahem.

Stable?

BWAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I missed something.

Ace_of_Lobster · 06-30-2003, 07:35 PM

Maybe you did.

Dragonlich · 06-30-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
Maybe you did.

No, you're right. Iraq was indeed stable. Very stable. After all, everyone threatening to destabilize the country (or just insulting Saddam, or looking at him the wrong way, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or whatever) was killed.

Iraq was stable, like Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia was stable. That does not mean that it is bad to invade those countries to install a *normal* government...

In this instance, you have an ex-dictator (Saddam) on the run (with loads of money to support his cause), and a bucketload of interested parties (fedayeen, secret service, ba'ath loyalists) fighting to restore Saddam's and *their* power. After all, they were important when they were in power - now they're just common criminals and murderers. The rest of the Iraqi people are pawns in their political games, to be used as they see fit.

Just as an example of how the situation has changed: the other day, a couple of Iraqis were acting suspiciously in their farm. A group of US soldiers came in to investigate, and they found various suspicious drawings, maps and plans. They did *not* find any weapons, however. The men were released, with a formal apology. Now, I could argue that the Iraqi guys were victimized, and that the US army was evil for even going in there without firm evidence... but I could also point out that in Saddam's days, these guys would have been arrested, tortured and possibly executed with their entire families; just to be sure...

The_Dude · 07-01-2003, 07:57 AM

stable meaning no new govt installed/taken over in the past decades.

06-26-2003, 12:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	err.. why is this guy writing this to a church? __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-26-2003, 12:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i really have a hard time buying this. this sounds more like an essay than a letter. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 09:46 AM	#6 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Some people wouldn't accept good news out of Iraq no matter what. Some people also don't want things to go well in Iraq so that it will taint W. Personally I don't care, I want Iraqis to live better at this point. I disagree that WMD's don't matter. They do. They need to be found both for legitimacy and for safety which is the hardest part I have with the letter. How could a military man say the WMD's don't matter. WMD's matter most because we don't want to catch the detonated side of them. For the optimist this letter is at least refreshing. I'm sure how much of it is inflated and spun into sounding better than it is, but that is part of the letter writer's job for the sake of morale back home. I'd like to think if 10 percent of that letter is true then we are making some progress. The part about the opposition they are facing makes some sense. Does anybody have anything to refute some of his claims? I've heard that part of the reason they didn't have chlorine is because they weren't allowed to because of the sanctions. Don't know how true that is though. If you believe the letter is propaganda, which parts? Or can you dismiss all of it because it came from the military? What clues you in to propaganda? There's no room for outright dismissal in debate. A dismissal isn't a critique its ignoring it. Ignoring only leads to ignorance. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

06-27-2003, 09:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I don't have a hard time believing it at all. Why? For one thing, it's too easy to check out. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-27-2003, 10:24 AM	#8 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	personally, i just wouldnt write a letter to my church in the format used. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 12:11 PM	#10 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	"....so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here. If we find it great if we don't, so what? ....WMD is an important issue. We have to find them wherever they may be (in Syria?), but that is not our real motivator. Don't let it be yours either." ------------------------------- I am glad everything is going well and everything but this part I have a problem with.... It is the entire reason we went there. The only reason. If it was to free people there are 100 other places we could have went and what makes those places not as important? I have a feeling this was written to try and soften the blow when they say yep, there was no WMD's, but hey, we did free these poeple and got them clean water and stuff....right!?!

06-27-2003, 12:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	There was never just one reason that we went there. However, the only one that you heard about in the media was WMDs simply because it makes a better story to say that Iraq may launch nukes at us at any moment, than to suggest we are out to take down a Hitler-esque figure. The "motto" for those in favor of the war has been "Liberate Iraq" since day one. The only people (civilians) that you heard clammoring about WMDs were those who were against the war in the first place. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

06-27-2003, 12:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
TaLoN Loser Location: MI	oh come on liberals...it is obvious that you are the only ones rejecting this because you don't want to admit that being against war is stupid. to this day i have never heard any good reason for being against war. This war has proved that there are things MUCH MUCH more important than peace.

06-27-2003, 01:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
andyc Upright Location: Nottingham, England	This smells like propaganda. Still waiting for those WMD to be found. Remeber, this was the reason given for attacking them in the first place. He mentioned looking for WMD in Syria, why not look in Israel as well ?

06-27-2003, 03:07 PM	#16 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	my atheistic views have nothing to do w/ this. you just dont write a letter like this to a religious institution __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 09:27 PM	#20 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Question: does "propaganda" mean that something is automatically false? Suppose for a second that most of what the guy/PR department writes is true. Wouldn't this letter be a great propaganda tool then? Suppose it's all false, how long do you think it'll take the news media to investigate and report that - and how much of a problem would that discovery be to US propaganda efforts??? Do not dismiss good news just because it sounds too good to be true, in light of other bad news. the news media go for stories that sell, and writing about how great Iraq is with the US in control is not going to sell newspapers...

06-28-2003, 08:32 AM	#21 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	let me point out that this has not been confirmed by any independant sources. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-28-2003, 02:36 PM	#23 (permalink)
clsintampa Upright Location: Tampa Bay, Fla.	Sorry..I coudn't care less about the plight of the Iraqis before the war...and I couldn't care less now. they don't want us there even though we thru out Saddam...why do we bother. he was NO THREAT to the Cont. US. We need to straighten out our own shit before we go elsewhere IMO. __________________ The One and Only.

06-29-2003, 12:55 PM	#27 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	For me, I don't really care if WMD's were the main reason for Bush or not. The important thing is that we know Hussein had them at some point, but now we don't know where they are. That's the scariest part about it. For me its not about finding WMD's for legitmacy for the war, its about finding WMD's so some whack-job doesn't use them. They have to be secured and destroyed. Its in everyone's best interest for that. Just for safety's sake at this point. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

06-29-2003, 01:58 PM	#28 (permalink)
Downtownat10 Crazy Location: A Fortified Compound, East Coast	I think the thing that I find the most humor in is that before the war, Bush was saying how we needed to go find the WMDs, but ALSO how Iraq needed regime change, and Saddam needed to be out of power. Don't people remember when the US told Saddam that he had a couple of days to get the hell out of Iraq, else we were going to get rid of him? That fact alone tells me that it was about more than finding WMDs. Also, everyone will go on and on about how the war was about oil, and nothing more, yet they still demand to find WMDs. If you are dead-set in your beliefs that it was about oil, don't bother worrying about everything else. Sure, I think it would be great if some WMDs were found, because I personally am fairly certain they are somewhere, else Saddam would have probably brought out evidence of their destruction (and by "their," I mean any of them, even the ones we gave him years ago). But, we keep hearing about how if they aren't found, the US will be in lots of trouble. How long will people say that? In just over a year, Bush & Co. will (hopefully) be out of office, and that will make it a bit more difficult to hate him. Even still, though, while there is plenty of talk about finding WMDs, there isn't much talk anymore about what will happen if they don't exist. Personally, I can only hope that the letter is real. Whether you were for or against the war, or Bush, or Tony Blair, or Michael Moore, can you honestly say that the citizens of Iraq led a better life under Saddam? He wasn't exactly Barney, telling you he loves you, you love him, and you're a happy family. Of course, what do I know? __________________ Heh. Oops. Sorry about that one...

06-29-2003, 07:40 PM	#29 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	According to this guy, countries should be lineing up to be invaded by America. How can people believe this garbage? __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

06-30-2003, 11:54 AM	#34 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	maybe all the TV stations (yes, INCLUDING fox news) are biased, but i've seen several mass turnouts of protests against US occupation. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-30-2003, 07:35 PM	#38 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	Maybe you did. __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

07-01-2003, 07:57 AM	#40 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	stable meaning no new govt installed/taken over in the past decades. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal