42 days - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 06-14-2008, 02:19 PM

growing up the police were allowed to hold a supsect without charge for 48 hours.

Now its heading towards 42 days

There are no rational or strategic arguments in favour of it, just fear and loathing.

its all bullshit.

Goring said it all 60 years ago:

Quote:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

And its the same with anything. Just tell the people that they are under threat, and it seems you can take almost anything. Brown should be declared a traitor for forcing this through, I doubt that any of them care, but this is personally for me, the final straw and the final breach with the Labour Party. This isnt just the actions of a rougue leader, this is the final abandoment by the party of its roots in supporting this criminal extension of the police state.

Willravel · 06-14-2008, 02:35 PM

How is it that someone like Brown can replace someone like Blair, who most in Labour thought was too much of a centrist? It seems that Brown may as well be a Tory. Actually, a neo-torry. Feel free to use that.

Strange Famous · 06-14-2008, 02:41 PM

When Tony B Liar was in power, Brown represented himself as the hope of the left. But now he is almost to the right of B Liar.

But Brown's buggest problem is still his weakness

People WANT him to be dour, misanthropic, terse, and above all SOLID

Instead of the Stalinist that we expected, we see a weakling who is unable to make a single decision

_____

I was a Labour Party member when I was younger,and the moved to Socialist Workerd Party... I rejoined Labour in my mud 20's, but now I see the Greens as the future.

Willravel · 06-14-2008, 02:44 PM

The SWP enjoys a better reputation in the UK than the US. I'd give that a shot if I were you. For me, the only option is Green.

host · 06-14-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

How is it that someone like Brown can replace someone like Blair, who most in Labour thought was too much of a centrist? It seems that Brown may as well be a Tory. Actually, a neo-torry. Feel free to use that.

Labour had become neocon, and unlike in the US....in the UK, conservatives seem to be conservative:

Quote:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...nt#post2467643

June 6, 2008
42-day detention: the threat to our liberty
The Government's plan is simply part of an assault on our ancient rights
John Major....

Friday, 13 June 2008 08:45 UK
David Davis resigns from Commons

David Davis explains why he is resigning

Shadow home secretary David Davis has resigned as an MP, promising to fight to regain his seat on a platform of defending "British liberties".

The Lib Dems are not taking part in the by-election in Haltemprice and Howden, while Labour has yet to decide.

Mr Davis said the government was facing a test of "nerve" over its plans to extend detentions for terror suspects.

But Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the resignation showed the Conservatives were in "disarray".

Mr Davis said he would fight the by-election campaigning against the government's plans to extend pre-charge detentions for terror suspects to a maximum of 42 days.

'Their issue'

The proposal passed through the Commons on Wednesday by a margin of nine votes, against the opposition of the Tories, Lib Dems and 36 Labour MPs.

Mr Davis said: "It would be very unlikely that the Labour Party wouldn't stand. ...

...In his resignation statement, he said he feared 42 days was just the beginning and next "we'll next see 56 days, 70 days, 90 days".

But, he added: "In truth, 42 days is just one -- perhaps the most salient example -- of the insidious, surreptitious and relentless erosion of fundamental British freedoms."

He listed the growth of the "database state," government "snooping" ID cards, the erosion of jury trials and other issues.

"This cannot go on. It must be stopped and for that reason today I feel it is incumbent on me to make a stand," said Mr Davis....

In the UK, the "War on Terror" has been openly reduced to a political game, but in the US, the Kool-Ade still flows strong on the republican side:

Quote:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4116590.ece
June 12, 2008
42-day detention: David Cameron lost — but gamble may still pay off

.....Those Shadow Cabinet members who had initial doubts agreed to set aside their worries and enjoy the plaudits of civil liberties campaigners. As Gordon Brown struggled to sell his case, Mr Cameron’s strategy on the Counter-Terrorism Bill appeared to be paying off. It allowed the Tory leader to appeal to Liberal Democrat voters and exploit internal Labour tensions while simultaneously countering the charge that he was a shallow political opportunist....

....ConservativeHome, the activists’ website, also voiced its concern. “A mature political party, interested in public safety, shouldn’t lightly dismiss the arguments of such a senior antiterrorist specialist and a senior police chief,” an editorial said yesterday.

Mr Cameron knows that Mr Brown’s victory will mean that he will face the “soft-on-terror” gibe from now until the election. Seeking to deflect this charge, he invoked Northern Ireland at Prime Minister’s Questions yesterday. “This party needs no reminders of the importance of fighting terrorism. The first Member of Parliament I ever wrote a speech for, Ian Gow, was murdered by the IRA. The first Member of Parliament who ever represented me, Airey Neave, is commemorated above that door, murdered by the IRA.” .....

highthief · 06-14-2008, 04:16 PM

I think 42 days is certainly too long (and vaguely biblical). IMO, if you have grounds to arrest for something as serious as terrorism, you should be able to present enough evidence to get your man charged within about 72 hours. Anything longer opens things up to abuse.

allaboutmusic · 06-14-2008, 04:30 PM

Gordon Brown has probably made more fatal mistakes in his first year in power than even George W Bush made in his.

Willravel · 06-14-2008, 04:44 PM

George Bush was too busy on the ranch to make mistakes. If Brown has been there more than 1/3 of the time, he's already doing a better job than dubbuyuh.

smoore · 06-15-2008, 12:46 AM

You can't even carry a knife in the UK. A knife. The first known fabricated tool.

What do you expect? From what I've seen the UK citizens have sat on the sidelines while they have become the most surveilled society outside of China. I'm surprised it took this long to revoke the Magna Carta.

06-14-2008, 02:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	When Tony B Liar was in power, Brown represented himself as the hope of the left. But now he is almost to the right of B Liar. But Brown's buggest problem is still his weakness People WANT him to be dour, misanthropic, terse, and above all SOLID Instead of the Stalinist that we expected, we see a weakling who is unable to make a single decision _____ I was a Labour Party member when I was younger,and the moved to Socialist Workerd Party... I rejoined Labour in my mud 20's, but now I see the Greens as the future. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

06-14-2008, 04:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	I think 42 days is certainly too long (and vaguely biblical). IMO, if you have grounds to arrest for something as serious as terrorism, you should be able to present enough evidence to get your man charged within about 72 hours. Anything longer opens things up to abuse. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

06-15-2008, 12:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
smoore Crazy Location: West of Denver	You can't even carry a knife in the UK. A knife. The first known fabricated tool. What do you expect? From what I've seen the UK citizens have sat on the sidelines while they have become the most surveilled society outside of China. I'm surprised it took this long to revoke the Magna Carta. __________________ smoore

06-14-2008, 02:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	How is it that someone like Brown can replace someone like Blair, who most in Labour thought was too much of a centrist? It seems that Brown may as well be a Tory. Actually, a neo-torry. Feel free to use that.

06-14-2008, 02:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The SWP enjoys a better reputation in the UK than the US. I'd give that a shot if I were you. For me, the only option is Green.

06-14-2008, 04:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated	Gordon Brown has probably made more fatal mistakes in his first year in power than even George W Bush made in his.

06-14-2008, 04:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	George Bush was too busy on the ranch to make mistakes. If Brown has been there more than 1/3 of the time, he's already doing a better job than dubbuyuh.