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06-06-2008, 09:16 AM | #121 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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ace: for what it's worth, i wasn't really referencing you in my post--if i had meant to do so, i would have done it directly. no need for passive-aggressive stuff here.
yours is a curious alternative position--you seem to want to dissolve the rule violations as you acknowledge that "something" happened---in a way, you're more forthcoming than others, who won't go down the list of problems and try to explain them away. i disagree with the operation, but i understand (i think) the logic behind your position. the adjami piece does the same thing. i just dont buy it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-06-2008, 09:27 AM | #122 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-06-2008 at 09:40 AM.. Reason: added link |
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06-06-2008, 09:42 AM | #123 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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But really, Scott's book, Richard Clarke's book and any number of statements and/or memos.. it doesn't matter and probably won't. The President could walk out to the Rose Garden tomorrow and announce to the press "this was the biggest, dumbest mistake in American history." There would still be people who wouldn't believe it. I can hear it now. You could just remove Scott's name from the current "talking points" and insert Bush. You'd end up with "This isn't the Bush I know."
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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06-06-2008, 09:48 AM | #124 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I think Rockefeller had it right when he said, on the release of the latest Senate Intel report:
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Its about transparency and holding our government accountable, and making sure these mistakes (and misrepresentations) never happen again.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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06-09-2008, 03:15 AM | #126 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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06-09-2008, 05:32 AM | #128 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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It is more a political issue rather than a legal issue that Obama would have to face, if elected. What Obama said he would do: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 05:38 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-09-2008, 06:20 AM | #129 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Sure and I'm not totally opposed to that. But in all seriousness I think we have so many issues we need to work on I'm not sure how much energy and effort I want to see going into this endeavor. Long and short- Justice dept. investigation, fine. Endless congressional hearings beating this into the ground, NO.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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06-09-2008, 07:21 AM | #130 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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From Senator Clinton, June 7, 2008, profound words that have application beyond her original intent -
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There is nothing to be gained from impeachment proceedings or further investigations regarding what lead us to war in Iraq. Effort should be spent on ending the war and accomplishing our goals within Iraq.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-09-2008, 07:50 AM | #131 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I strongly believe that Obama should proceed on a legal track with regard to Bush's expansive claim of executive privilege (claiming that it applies not only to conversations or documents between the president and a suboordinate, but to conversations/documents between two suborinates w/o the direct involvement of the president. I also believe we need further review (either judicicial or congressional) over potential violations of US international treaty obligations (particularly regarding treatment of non-combatants) These both has serious implications beyond Bush. I think it is also important to separate Congressional oversight hearings from possbile crimininal investigations by the incoming DoJ. Oversight hearings serve a diferent purpose...not to determine criminal violations, but to determine a need for new/additional legislation as a result of potential (non-criminal) abuses by the outgoing admin. IMO, this applies to the issue of usingn intel to suit a political agenda at the expense of full disclosure of relevant conflicting intel, several "open government" issues, government contracting issues, issues of interference by political apppointees in the scientific studies of government agencies, etc. The most important "change" that Obama can implement, IMO, is to assure the American people that it will not be "business as usual". The government will be more transparent, open and accountable and the concept of checks and balances and separation of powers will be honored (that means no "signing statements" that change the intent of law, no unilateral interepretation of "executive powers," no expansive claims of executive privilege, no attempts to block any valid FOIA requests, no politicizing of govt scientific studies, etc.....)
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 07:54 AM.. |
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06-09-2008, 07:51 AM | #132 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Well it might be nice to investigate to ensure we learn from our mistakes. Plus I personally believe there are folks who should be held accountable for this mess. Some for their actions and some for their inactions.
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Those are good points. My fear is oversight hearings could plunge into massive political games and partisan BS.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 06-09-2008 at 07:54 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-09-2008, 08:28 AM | #133 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-09-2008, 09:03 AM | #134 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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So, in this case, you certainly will never get a consensus on any wrong doing by the Executive Branch and any actions taken by Democratic Party leaders will be perceived by at least half of the nation as partisan - so I ask you one simple question: What would be gained?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-09-2008, 09:31 AM | #135 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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06-09-2008, 10:00 AM | #136 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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What will be gained? How about a year of freedom for innocent men, women and children? How about unconstitutional wiretaps? How about a year's worth of Iraq War money? How about Kyoto? How about letting Adam and Steve get hitched? I could write books on the things Bush not only has done wrong, but continues to do wrong in office, to the detriment of the American people (you included). |
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06-09-2008, 10:19 AM | #137 (permalink) | ||||
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Background thread on Bush's "interview" in the Plame leak investigation:
"If Rove is Indicted, Will Media Mention Bush's Criminal Defense Attorney Jim Sharp?" The potential is still here for an "express" double impeachment, reinstatement of Libby's prison sentence, since a co-conspirator in a criminal cover up, cannot validly issue a sentence commutation for a sentence associated with the same criminal matter..... but, only a potential for it to happen....at least for now: Quote:
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06-09-2008, 10:25 AM | #138 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Really if Bush is impeached that will nullify Libby's commutation? Can he be impeached after leaving office?
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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06-09-2008, 10:45 AM | #139 (permalink) | |||
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The commutation of Libby's sentence, for it to be valid, has to be "pure"...unrelated to any other motive on the part of the president....I think the best we can hope for is to make it untenable for Bush to issue a pardon to Libby for his four count conviction, on Bush's last day in office: Quote:
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06-09-2008, 10:50 AM | #140 (permalink) | |||
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Location: Ventura County
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I just think it is time for both sides to give it a rest.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-09-2008, 10:59 AM | #141 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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That was in 1970, years before being a member of the E. branch.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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06-09-2008, 11:07 AM | #142 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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to my mind, there are several problems that i think the top members of the bush administration should be held accountable for--of them, i find the false case for war with iraq almost as outrageous as this sort of thing:
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i see this kind of thing as far more serious than the outling of valerie plame or the confirmation of the obvious by scott mclelland. and i don't see the argument that ace is making above--which amounts to "pshaw..everyone does this" as extending anywhere near these situations. or the more immediate ones in this thread. basically, the americans are either a country bound by law or they aren't. if they aren't, then why should anyone else be? and if the united states administration can authorize the systematic violation of international agreements concerning treatment of detainees, bans on torture--you know, basic human rights---and there are no consequences, what does that say to the rest of the world? either the americans under george w bush define themselves as a menace, or the americans under george w bush erase 75 years of international treaties/law regarding basic human rights. personally, i would prefer to see elements of the bush administration suffer legal consequences for these actions. guarantees of basic human rights are more important that the imperlial delusions of the neo-cons.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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06-09-2008, 11:14 AM | #143 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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1) Bush bypassed informed consent knowingly by presenting at best partisan and biased information and withholding information when presenting the case for the invasion of Iraq to Congress. (this also includes breaking the UN charter, which is a legal US treaty). 2) Bush threatened and was responsible for an attack on a sovereign nation, including civilian targets. 3) Bush ordered illegal kidnappings. 4) Bush ordered that Valery Plame's name be released. 5) Bush ordered the Attorney General to bypass judicial orders which should have lead to the release of detainees. 6) Bush ordered secret wiretapping and information gathering on US citizens, bypassing FISA. Quote:
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As for Obama's wrongs, that's a hell of a red herring. |
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06-09-2008, 11:18 AM | #144 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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With an Obama win and Democratic increases in both the House and Senate, Obama can quite easily make a case for having a "mandate for change" and frame that mandate on two tracks.
The primary track would be a different policy approach to the occupation in Iraq, the economy, health care, energy, etc. The secondary track would be a commitment to a more open and accountable executive branch, including a strong case to continue to support Congressional oversight of the "excesses" of the previous administration in selected areas (executive privilege, US responsibilities under international treaties, destroying WH e-mails, politicization of the DoJ, interference with government science reports, etc) in order to determine if the "checks and balances" have been ignored and/or abused and the best corrective actions to put the ship of state back on course. The only way it wont work is if he lets the Republicans frame the issue that we need to focus solely on the future and forget the excesses of the past 8 years and anything else is a partisan "fishing expedition." The issue of impeachment is DOA....the issue of criminal prosecution of members of the Bush admin post Jan 09 is an open question.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 11:23 AM.. |
06-09-2008, 11:23 AM | #145 (permalink) | |||||
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....and do you wear boxers or briefs? I cannot imagine stuffing a "set" as big as the one a person who wrote your last post, yet who subscribed to "the thinking" below, must be endowed with...into a pair of briefs! Quote:
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06-09-2008, 11:31 AM | #146 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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host...i agree that there may be grounds for impeachment, particularly on the issues of warrantless wiretaps, the unlawful release of national security information (Plame affair) and the abrogation of US treaty obligations (torture of non-combatants)...but not on the decisions or actions that brought about the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
From a practical perspective...it just aint gonna happen. One only need look at the manner in which the WH has effectively stalled the Contempt of Congress citations on WH staff. That issue will not work its way through the federal courts until after the Bush admin is out. An impeacment inquiry would suffer the same fate...at the first request for WH testimony or documents, Bush would call out his lawyers and stall with legal maneuvers for 9 months. I just dont see how the public is served. I would much rather see a focus on corrective actions as a priority rather than delayed punitive actions through the impeachment process. That sill leaves the door open to criminal prosecution after Jan 09.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 11:35 AM.. |
06-09-2008, 11:36 AM | #147 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-09-2008, 11:42 AM | #148 (permalink) | |
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No, they all maintained that "public lies"....the president losing his credibility, were enough. But, now, in the circumstances of the list of serious accusations of a loss of presidential credibility, closely related to, and during a time of war....where are these same people with their concerns? ace summed it up in his last post, it has to be a demonstrable felony now, for impeachment to be considered, and Broder's response last friday is a poster for ace's argument.... |
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06-09-2008, 11:47 AM | #149 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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host..I agree with you here as well.
The most baffling aspect of the discussion from our members on the right here and in the right wing media is how any true conservative can simply ignore the alleged and potential wrongdoings as a result of the the numerous questionable policies and practices of the Bush admin over the last 8 years. Many of those actions probably do not reach the level of impeachable offenses, but certainly they are worthy of further congressional and judicial review to determine any potential criminality as well as the adverse impact on the system of checks and balances. To simply say.."its time to move on" is a slap in the face of the Constitution.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 11:55 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
06-09-2008, 11:54 AM | #150 (permalink) | ||
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06-09-2008, 11:56 AM | #151 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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It wont be an easy balancing act as is evident from the discussion here.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 11:58 AM.. |
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06-09-2008, 12:03 PM | #152 (permalink) | |
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It is they who are on the fringe, in a reality based political universe, but they have the microphone, as they did in 1998. |
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06-09-2008, 12:06 PM | #153 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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personally why dc may find it to be a slap in the face of the Constitution, I don't find it as such. Sure if you'd like to fish about, by all means, but I'm not interested in spinning wheels to appease the Constitution. If it was not supposed to happen, then one of the other branches should have stopped it. I'd like more energy and time devoted to getting the economy back on track, settling the gas crisis, the mortgage crisis, and the rest.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-09-2008, 12:08 PM | #154 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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I dont believe a fast-track impeachment inquiry in an election year would be perceived by the public as fitting that criteria. Quote:
There is no reason why Obama and a Dem Congress cant muti-task and do both....per my post #144. I think if it were framed and presented to the American people correctly, it would receive widespread support.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 12:47 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-09-2008, 02:47 PM | #155 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I know there is a lot of emotion and some feel the need to get even for whatever wrong they think Bush is guilty of - I just think it will be a waste of time and energy - nothing more, nothing less. Those who want to punish Bush or send a message with further investigations, hearings, impeachment, trials, etc., will be in a position of power soon and can make it all happen. We will actually be able to see if any good comes from it. So far Bush has pretty much done everything he wanted to do, and has not had to answer to anyone. In my mind Congress failed if we conclude Bush is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. Every step of the way Democrats have been saying he was dishonest and a lier, from the moment he "stole" the election. If they believed what they said, they should have done more at the time it was happening. My mind is made up and won't be changed, I am focused on the future. Quote:
Or is it just a matter of giving "everyone" a turn to publicly say how outraged they are and how vial Bush is? If that is the game, and Obama wants to continue it, it seem contrary to his desire to change Washington. But, if you recall even Bush was going to "change" Washington. Washington is not going to change. So, Bush will go through the Democratic Party ringer, and Obama will get his turn with the Republicans. You can say you heard it hear first.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 06-09-2008 at 02:59 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-09-2008, 03:00 PM | #156 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Now part of that is done after the fact via the Judicial branch, in finding law unconstitutional, but I don't see "finding lies" from the executive branch a worthwhile endeavor just so that it can be ruled that Bush was a moron, liar, etc. I think that is making the Judicial branch more "politicized" in doing so.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-09-2008, 03:11 PM | #157 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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We have seen several actions by Congress as a result of these oversight hearings: * FISA reform to prevent any future wiretapping of Americans w/o a warrant. (proposed)I think its fair to say that none of these would likely have occurred if not for the change in leadership of Congress. Some of these issues (and many others) are still under review pending responses from the WH and the Executive branch to provide documentation of actions by the administration. This is a proper role for Congress. Should they stop now, w/o those necessary WH docs? The Democratic Congress is making up for six years of the Republicans virtually abrogating this responsibility. I think they deserve more than 1-1/2 years to complete the job if necessary, particularly given the lack of cooperation by the WH and their Republican colleagues during that 1-1/2 years. IMO, Congress's role as overseer of the Executive Branch (while not clearly delineated in the Constitution) is equally important as the role of enacting legislation and adopting a federal budget. It is not to punish an administration....it is to make the Executive Branch more open and accountable to the American people.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-09-2008 at 03:56 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-09-2008, 04:12 PM | #158 (permalink) |
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Cynthetiq and ace give carte blanche to the administration's strategy of simply stonewalling all investigation and attempted oversight with bogus, blanket claims of executive immunity, until they run out the clock.
In this way of responding to official misconduct, if a change in congressional control does not change to the opposition party sooner than before the congressional election immediately preceding the end of a president's tenure, the two year time limit will encourage all future executives to withhold cooperation with attempts at legislative branch oversight, and instead, refuse all cooperation, claim blanket executive immunity, and attempt to run out the clock. It is all in the interest of "moving on".....moving on....to what? To the next Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq invasion, secret executive order, signing statement, blanket claim of presidential immunity, or deliberate destruction of inter-office white house message files? Do you think undercover operatives at the CIA have no curiousity, and no effect on their commitment to their jobs, concerning what McClellan wrote about Bush admitting to deliberately declassiying details of Plame's CIA employment, for political purposes? Why....why do you want to "move forward" with nothing resolved? Should we "move forward", by dropping the long delayed NIST commitment to report on the reason for the collapse of the 47 stories tall, WTC 7 building? Should Pat Tillman's mom be told to "GFH", in response to her demands that those who covered up the circumstances of here son's death, be held accountable? How about all of the families of US soldiers KIA in Iraq, should they pursue a determination as to the validity of Scott McClellan's "unnecessary war" statement....or do your views.....you with nothing lost, no empty seat at your dinner table..... your wish to "move on"....do you prevail? dc_dux, isn't the list of "reforms" that you posted, a list of responses unique to the actions of an administration with no regard for the law? They've dreamed up all of these unprecedented acts and procedures that caused congress to respond with your list of remedies. Isn't the obvious solution, in response to a rogue administration that uses signing statements in place of vetoes, and twists FISA, FOIA, etc....etc.... to draw up articles of impeachment, and keep removing scoundrel executives from office until an executive is seated who will act as others have, before this list of reforms was found to be necessary to implement? Or, could they simply refuse to appropriate funds for the continued operation of the law breaking branch, unless it agrees to conform, and then does? Last edited by host; 06-09-2008 at 04:33 PM.. |
06-09-2008, 05:59 PM | #159 (permalink) | |
Upright
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"President Cheney" has a nice ring to it. |
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06-09-2008, 06:51 PM | #160 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Cheney'd get some trim and get impeached faster than Clinton can say "Is". |
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crimes, house, impeachable, key, offenses, press, secretary, war, white, witness |
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