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Old 05-07-2008, 10:06 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
Can somebody who knows more about this sort of thing or who has found a a reliable report not based on exit polls summarize factually where we stand after yesterday?
Factually, where we stand after yesterday is that Obama will be the Democratic nominee. Which is the same factual place we stood after PA, and, really, the same place we stood after TX and OH. Clinton hasn't had a valid path to the nomination for quite some time, but it wasn't (and still isn't) technically impossible. However, what is technically possible is not the same as what is likely. After OH and TX, where Clinton failed to achieve the necessary margins of victory, it was nearly impossible for her to win the nomination without a miracle. Now it's almost certainly impossible - so much so that the news networks, who gain a lot from this race dragging on, are finally starting to talk about how Clinton is done.

The only thing that yesterday truly changed is the media's willingness to continue to misrepresent Clinton's chances.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:11 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
Can somebody who knows more about this sort of thing or who has found a a reliable report not based on exit polls summarize factually where we stand after yesterday?
I don't know who you are referring to with "we", but I assume the Democratic nominees?

Obama now needs 172 total delegates to capture the nomination while Clinton needs 326. This means that Clinton has to win 68% of the remaining delegates if she is to pass Obama.

Basically, she's going to go to superdelegates and say, "Please make me the nominee! Please please please! I really want it!"

Ironically, the only way that she can win (barring a colossal collapse by Obama) is if the superdelegates overturn the decision of the voters. For a candidate talking about not disenfranchising voters, this seems a little disingenuous.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:42 AM   #43 (permalink)
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To help put the numbers in perspective, and explain why Clinton winning the nomination was nearly impossible after TX and OH, despite the large number of outstanding delegates available, here's an article from Columbia Journalism Review on the primary schedule, demographics, and the role they play.

Quote:
The Late Great States   click to show 
As Borgs points out, Clinton needs to win 68% of the remaining delegates to win. That's a tall order - nearly impossible based on past performance - but it doesn't give a true representation of where Clinton stands. The demographics play a key role. Obama, for example, will very likely win Oregon, which means the Clinton needs to perform even better than 68% in the other remaining states. You can see how, once demographics are taken into account, not to mention the fact Clinton has only had a couple blowout wins in this entire contest, there's essentially no chance for Clinton whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I thought that at first, but I want a more decisive win this time so cheating is impossible. Richardson won't bring nearly as many votes as Edwards.
Kos has what I think is a pretty good assessment of Obama's VP choices...

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Vice Presidency   click to show 
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Last edited by SecretMethod70; 05-07-2008 at 11:07 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:53 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Newsnight is reporting that Hillary Clinton is almost finished and is close to pulling out... but who knows, maybe she can do some more damage to Obama yet?
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
 
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My guess is that Clinton will hang in for the remaining primaries through June 3, out of a sense of loyalty to her supporters.

But I think we will see a significant change in her tone and tactics that have been contributing to the divide within the party. Both she and Obama will now focus on McCain, rather than each other.

On the VP issue, as much as I would like to see Richardson, I dont think Obama will go that route. Perhaps, Richardson as Sec of State.

VPs dont matter much in terms of bringing voters to the candidate, other than by perception. And I think Obama needs to be perceived as being attentive to the Clinton voters - blue collar whites and seniors. Thats why I think Gov Strickland of OH might be a possibility, along with the fact that he is from a crucial state for Dem to get the electoral number needed. (Dem either needs to win OH or FL...or a combination of NM, CO, IA, VA).

I still like Lee Hamilton, former congressman from Indiana and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission.....he brings even more foreign policy/national security credentials than Richardson.

A new name being buzzed about is General Wesley Clark.

Notice these guys - Strickland, Hamilton, Clark - all old white men....a reassurance for some voters.
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:19 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
My guess is that Clinton will hang in for the remaining primaries through June 3, out of a sense of loyalty to her supporters.

But I think we will see a significant change in her tone and tactics that have been contributing to the divide within the party. Both she and Obama will now focus on McCain, rather than each other.

On the VP issue, as much as I would like to see Richardson, I dont think Obama will go that route. Perhaps, Richardson as Sec of State.

VPs dont matter much in terms of bringing voters to the candidate, other than by perception. And I think Obama needs to be perceived as being attentive to the Clinton voters - blue collar whites and seniors. Thats why I think Gov Strickland of OH might be a possibility, along with the fact that he is from a crucial state for Dem to get the electoral number needed. (Dem either needs to win OH or FL...or a combination of NM, CO, IA, VA).

I still like Lee Hamilton, former congressman from Indiana and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission.....he brings even more foreign policy/national security credentials than Richardson.

A new name being buzzed about is General Wesley Clark.

Notice these guys - Strickland, Hamilton, Clark - all old white men....a reassurance for some voters.
Hamilton is defiently not the type of person I'd be looking for to reverse the trend of the current vice president in regards to 'open' government. His work in the 9/11 commission report was abysmal. Although, I do agree Obama needs an old white man as VP.
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcol
Hamilton is defiently not the type of person I'd be looking for to reverse the trend of the current vice president in regards to 'open' government. His work in the 9/11 commission report was abysmal. Although, I do agree Obama needs an old white man as VP.
I cant disagree with you about the 9/11 commission report. Hamilton shares the blame with the Repub chair Tom Kean.

Hamilton also was co-chair of the Iraq Study Group that offered a reasonable strategy to get the US out of Iraq. As a VP, I could see him as Obama's point man on a redeployment strategy that will start bringing our guys home shortly after the inauguration.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:19 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I cant disagree with you about the 9/11 commission report. Hamilton shares the blame with the Repub chair Tom Kean.

Hamilton also was co-chair of the Iraq Study Group that offered a reasonable strategy to get the US out of Iraq. As a VP, I could see him as Obama's point man on a redeployment strategy that will start bringing our guys home shortly after the inauguration.
No matter who is elected there is no way we can bring our troops home shortly after the inauguration. It ain't gonna happen. Don't fool yourself, don't believe the lie. If we do it will be one of the biggest foreign policy fiasco's in history, bigger than the war in Iraq is/was or will ever be. Sure the current administration lied and fucked up getting us where we are but now that we are there to just pull out will be much much worse. /endhijack
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:38 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by scout
No matter who is elected there is no way we can bring our troops home shortly after the inauguration. It ain't gonna happen. Don't fool yourself, don't believe the lie. If we do it will be one of the biggest foreign policy fiasco's in history, bigger than the war in Iraq is/was or will ever be. Sure the current administration lied and fucked up getting us where we are but now that we are there to just pull out will be much much worse. /endhijack
I dont expect Obama to bring all the troops home shortly after the inauguration.

I do expect Obama to implement a strategy that will BEGIN the process of drawing down the 140,000+ troops in Iraq and BEGIN a much more active diplomatic process involving ME countries (Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and yes, Iran) towards political and economic stability and reconciliation.

I expect that it will take more than a year, once the process begins, to reduce our presence in Iraq to a very small force level.

The fiasco would be if Obama continued with the current Bush or McCain strategy in Iraq.
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:26 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Clinton is such a disaster for the Democrat party.

It has nothing to do with integrity, or policy - simply she is smug and has no charisma. When you listen to her talk you know she could never win a general election.

I think the people who control the final vote need to lean on her pretty hard to pull out now.

she and McCain are two of the worst public speakers i've ever heard run for a national office
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:05 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Derwood
she and McCain are two of the worst public speakers i've ever heard run for a national office
Oh, I don't know. In terms of sheer delivery, anyway, they're far better than Bush Sr., and much better than Bush Jr.

But they both sound like Porky Pig next to Obama. Man's presentation and delivery is OUTSTANDING. When I saw him I was literally in the back row of the top balcony of a 3000-person auditorium, and I swear he was talking to ME.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:04 PM   #52 (permalink)
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ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:16 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by loquitur
ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.
I feel a Godwin coming on...
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:59 PM   #54 (permalink)
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RB, I disagree. Bush is a likeable personality.

He might be many things, and might have visited many ills on his nation, but he IS electable.

Hillary Clinton is not.
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:27 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
I feel a Godwin coming on...
Dammit...I wanted to do it...
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:37 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Famous
RB, I disagree. Bush is a likeable personality.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I can get along with some Texans, but Bush is of the type that I don't get along with. He's the cocky, "don't mess with Texas", moronic, white trash with money type. Even without the wiretapping, lying to get us to war, torture, and such, he and I would not get along. Actually, he'd like me (except for my politics) but I wouldn't like him.
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:38 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Oh, I don't know. In terms of sheer delivery, anyway, they're far better than Bush Sr., and much better than Bush Jr.

But they both sound like Porky Pig next to Obama. Man's presentation and delivery is OUTSTANDING. When I saw him I was literally in the back row of the top balcony of a 3000-person auditorium, and I swear he was talking to ME.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I have to disagree with you on this one. I can get along with some Texans, but Bush is of the type that I don't get along with. He's the cocky, "don't mess with Texas", moronic, white trash with money type. Even without the wiretapping, lying to get us to war, torture, and such, he and I would not get along. Actually, he'd like me (except for my politics) but I wouldn't like him.

Bush wouldn't like me at all. But then I have a bad habit of telling people exactly what I think.
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Last edited by Tully Mars; 05-08-2008 at 05:50 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:38 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by loquitur
ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.
I didn't say it was a reason to vote for him. Jesus Christ. Defensive much?
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