ratbastid

For the first MANY years of the Bush administration, any criticism was met by "Well Clinton's a criminal! It's not fair he got away with not being convicted! We should try him for his crimes!"

Double-standard much?

pan6467

If you pay more attention to who is running now and less time trying to oust Bush (hat leaves us with Cheney... then Condi... great replacements there), a president over stepping their bounds like Bush did won't happen.

Bush did what WE ALLOWED him to do. We can cry, yell, scream, demand impeachment (which there is truly not enough time left) and divide farther.

Or we can look for a new president that will truly LEAD US into a better future.

I choose to look for the leader and stop focusing on what we have. He's gone soon....

I also wonder how much of this blind hatred for the GOP and Bush was held over from Clinton. I loved Bill, he was tied and couldn't truly accomplish what he needed because the GOP badgered his every move.

I'm tired I have had 16 years of bullshit dealing with the president and it is OVER. Now we find a true leader.

I will definitely not like the person who wins, but that person will be my president. I would prefer Hilary, but if McCain or Obama win so be it. I will respect that person for the office they hold and I will hope they have a plan to get this country back on track.

But you want to keep dividing and stirring shit and thinking it makes you look far far more patriotic ........ I disagree. I believe it makes you look every bit as bad as Bush and all that you scream about you would have been blind and silent to had it been done not by Bush but by a president of your choosing.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Lebell

No NO and NO

You don't get it either, man.

The bitching, the posting is fine. But I have a friend who has the same damn problem. He's passionate about the issues, but he has trouble keeping friends.

He hates Bush, supports Obama, but is on his second divorce and his kid's friends don't come around because he is so angry and unpleasant to be around.

That's what I see here; passion about what Bush has done to this country but no compassion even for the people around here. No solutions. No positives.

Am I guilty? Sure. I spent a lot of time here, but at least I figured out that I was slipping into becoming just a complainer and not a doer. I figured out that I was in danger of becoming just like the people I didn't like.

If you can't handle the bitching, whining and non-constructive engagement, try this thread:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...50#post2436550

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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dc_dux

pan....believe it or not, I can do both.....and I think it is in the best interest of the country to do so....to pay attention to who is running now and to OUT Bush's questionable actions in oversight hearings to get at the truth behind those actions (not OUST Bush) so it becomes clear that such actions by a president, if found to be illegal or unethical, will not be acceptable in the future by Congress or the American people.

BTW, if Bush and Cheney were to be ousted....Nancy Pelosi is next in line...not Condi

Discussing Bush's (alleged or proven) wrondoings and supporting more oversight hearings in the coming year ("dividing and stirring shit" as you call it) in order to have the facts come out to the American people so that they are more informed in order to judge for themselves if such actions are acceptable for a president is more important to me than how I look in your eyes.

I said the same thing twice....with the hope that helps clarify it...if not perhaps I should SHOUT IN COLOR to make my point.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Seaver

Seriously? Roach I just lost a lot of the respect I held for you with that statement.

You honestly think this is the largest transfer of wealth in History? If you were half as educated as your vocabulary lends, you would know this is complete bs.

The entire wealth of the Aztec/Incan Empires transfer to Europe? Nah, our Middle Class are taking it way harder than them. The Fall of Rome? Nah, the morbidly obese poor in our country make them seem like pansies. The Fall of the falling of the Byzantine/Sassanid Empires? Ain't got nothin' on the strife of our welfare policies.

I could go on...

You see? It's outlandish claims like these which result in people ignoring threads. We still have threads which attempt to show Bush stole the '01 election... which flies in the face of everything which has come out. We still have posts, started by our favorite thread starter, which scream and yell that 9/11 was a Bush plot. With that kind of rancid hatred, there is no where to go with discussions. It would be like trying to convince with words to Mao that his policies should be changed to avoid the death of millions... or trying ton convince Jerry Falwell that homosexuality isn't a hellworthy sin. They just don't care and don't want to hear it.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Ustwo

No problem, hold your moderators to the same standards though, you know who I'm talking about.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

And your attitude is why moderate Dems are going to leave the party in droves. I was a very proud Dem at one time, and much like Lebell stated above, I posted hate and anger and realized I wasn't doing a damned thing to better the country that way.

Your hatred and anger you decided not to read my post or took out only what you want.

You say "I am only trying to warn so this doesn't happen with a president again." But yet, you keep making it personal. If this had been a Dem president , I am 99% sure that you would be supporting and defending his every move with all this passion.

I'm tired of it.... either find solutions or get the fuck out of the way so that those of us that do and want to work UNITED can.

I would love to see moderates from both parties tell both parties extremists to go fuck themselves and form a strong socially liberal, fiscally conservative 3rd party.

It won't happen, but it would shut the extremists who run this country the Hell up.

BTW Pelosi taking over scares me a hell of a lot more than Bush or Cheney.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

Agreed. No one gets special treatment. Including staff.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ottopilot

Here's some text in small font sooth the large-fontaphobic.
Hence the "smiley" ...
Along with the deep concerns you guys constantly raise with the administration, do you believe the likes of Nancy Pelosi are in not "in" on much of what you and host complain? Who pulls their strings? Who lines their political pockets? They are as "owned" as any politician can be. The leaders of the "peoples mandate" have been rather quiet if not lack-luster since elected, don't some of you feel used? I would be more pissed about those betrayals because they have the power to do something about the claims you're making against Bush & Co. You can argue how power "really" plays out in congress, but they are still not powerless. The evidence that you want to expose or bring to everyone's attention is old news to the powerful on all sides by the time you report it. I'd be seriously questioning their unwillingness to act if things are the way you say they are. To rail on with such a transparent politically-biased unidimensional focus is tedious.

sample predictable opposing group response:
"**** you otto. Don't you know the majority of us TFP'ers (enter something authoritative here)? You obviously have lived under a rock and haven't read (enter obscure liberal author's article, book), or lived in the (oppressed persons classification of the day) shoes. You obviously ignore the facts (paste volume's of questionably sourced articles and quotes tied in with little original opinion here). You're the one that's tedious ... it's that kind of neo-con conservative (enter some bogus pseudo-intellectual dismissive analysis here). Maybe I'll school you in politics someday (add to mask the put down) ... blah blah blah".

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

pan6467

This shouldn't even be happening. I loved Bill, the GOP did all they could to keep him from doing his job..... but where were the Dems? Seems back then quite a few major ones stayed silent and didn't really do much to stop the GOP, until the end.

I just don't get it.... after 16+ years of dividing this country so badly that nothing gets done and we are truly feasting upon ourselves, all some people can worry about is "what did Bush get away with?" You cannot rebuild this country by blaming and hating and staying divisive. Give it up....in the end you will only look to be a fool for keeping that hatred and bullshit alive for so long.

Ummm hello, realty calling you. If you choose the next president and pat of his agenda/platform is to restore the office and rebuild the country as a whole not divisively then yu don't have to worry what the next president will do.

If you don't trust the candidate in your heart and soul.... then don'te vote for that candidate.


Quoted because I like what it says and know it's true..... esp. the opposing responses.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan....in fact, by nearly every measure, the Democratic party is growing, due in large part to the influx of moderate Independents and young people as a result of Bush's actions over the last seven years.

One only need to look at recently elected moderate Dem Senators like Jim Webb in Virginia, Claire McKaskill in Missouri, John Tester in Montana and Ken Salazar in Colorado from traditional Repub (red) states....as well as most of the 30+ Dems elected to the House in '06...all of whom have helped move the Dem party more to the center....much to the chagrin of some on the far left (but not me, I think its a good thing for the party )

In fact, moderate Repubs are the ones leaving their party. More than half of the 30 Repubs in the House who will not seek reelection this year are the moderates who have been marginalized in the party (others are leaving because of age or scandals), and the RNC is putting up social conservatives to run in their place...creating a greater possibility of Dems winning many of these seats this year.

But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

And despite your observations, I dont post out of hate and anger....I post to get the facts out when I see a president who IMO has not lived up to his oath of office. And I do so in order to stimulate discussion and try to gain an understanding of why some are not as concerned.

You're tired of reading that I think its important to hold a president accountable for his actions until the very last day in office..then ignore it.

Who are you to tell me to get the fuck out of way?

I'm tired of hearing you proclaim yourself a UNITER.


I actually think, aside from not forcing a plan to start withdrawing from Iraq, the Dem majority had a reasonable good first year as the majority, with numerous bills enacted that restored accountability in response to many of the abuses of the last seven years.

Are you ready to offer more claims to back up your "The Surge is Working" thread yet?

And yet you guys... pan. Ustwo, otto, seaver, etc still do not want to discuss those controversial actions...its all "old news" despite that fact that it continues today (EPA ignoring USSC ruling on implementing the Clean Air, DoD selectively releasing classified intel to their favorite talking heads who support the continued occupation of Iraq in order to generate favorable news coverage over a failed policy and strategy, violation of the law regarding how states implement SCHIP, etc) and instead, offer lame rationalizations why it serves no purpose to discuss these issues.

So...I give up!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Which bills are you referring? Bills for fact-finding junkets and redecorating? Those should be numerous.
You say that now ...

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

FISA reform, FOIA reform, contracting reform, lobbying/ethics reform, US attorney hiring reform, VA reform, FEMA reform......all address the issue of accountability as a result of Bush administration excesses or ineptness.

Renewal of SCHIP, implementation of 9/11 Commission recommendations, new education and economic competitiveness initiatives w/emphasis on science/math/technology, expansion of student loan programs, investments in renewable energy and energy conservation....all of which the public wanted but were stalled by the previous Repub majority.

enough?

I cant find the "redecorating" bill to which you refer

But I do understand how some would characterize Repub trips to Iraq as "fact-finding missions to support the troops" and Dem trips to Iraq as "interfering junkets for partisan political purposes."

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

fastom

Bush and Cheney both need to be impeached as soon as possible. It won't fix everything but at least sends a message to their puppeteers.



I found this quote that Reagan wrote about George "W" in his diaries, recently edited by author Doug Brinkley and published by Harper Collins.


"A moment I've been dreading. George brought his n'er-do-well son around this morning and asked me to find the kid a job. Not the political one who lives in Florida ; the one who hangs around here all the time looking shiftless. This so-called kid is already almost 40 and has never had a real job. Maybe I'll call Kinsley over at The New Republic and see if they'll hire him as a contributing editor or something. That looks like easy work."


From the REAGAN DIARIES------entry dated May 17, 1986.
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ottopilot

LOL! That is hilarious. "The Great Communicator" was a real ballbuster behind the scenes.

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo