Who Do you Have Less Respect for? Mr. Bush or the People Who Still Support/Defend Him - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 04-17-2008, 11:05 AM

Many of the Bush supporters who formerly posted on this forum are gone now. I think it's no wonder why that is so. The latest "news" is so outrageous and pathetic that I just have to ask....how do they do it?

How do people still post in support of Bush, here at TFP? If I was a supporter in Jan., 2005, after even the white house admitted that the WMD they thought were "there", turned out not to be "there", I would have abandoned my support for the president.

Three more years have passed, and Bush is still defended here....and that also means that the defenders have had to overlook Mr. Cheney's flaws, his rhetoric, the Scooter Libby "results"....etc. So, I'm asking for your reactions:

Quote:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/news-des...-to-worse.html
President Bush's Poll Numbers Are Going From Bad to Worse
April 11, 2008 04:34 PM ET | Kenneth T. Walsh | Permanent Link

President Bush is spending the weekend at his Texas ranch. But there's no escape from bad news in the ratings department.

The latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll finds that only 28 percent of Americans approve of the job Bush is doing, a new low. He was at 30 percent last month. The pollsters said one big reason is deepening voter dissatisfaction with the economy, which is in a serious downturn.....

Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/34030.html
Jonathan Landay GAO: Bush lacks strategy to wipe out bin Laden sanctuary
By Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2008 email | print tool nameclose
tool goes here
WASHINGTON — The Bush administration doesn't have a comprehensive strategy for eliminating Osama bin Laden's sanctuary in Pakistan's tribal region and preventing the region from being used for launching terrorist attacks on the United States, the investigative arm of Congress said Thursday.

President Bush and his senior lieutenants frequently claim that eradicating the threat that bin Laden's al Qaida terrorist network poses to United States and its allies is their top national-security priority.

But in a scathing report, the Government Accountability Office said there was no plan that "includes all elements of national power — diplomatic, military, intelligence, development assistance, economic and law enforcement support — called for by the various national-security strategies and Congress."

Al Qaida established its sanctuary in Pakistan's tribal region when bin Laden and his followers fled Afghanistan after the 2001 U.S.-led intervention.

"No comprehensive strategy for meeting U.S. national-security goals" in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas has been developed even though the administration's counter-terrorism policy, congressional legislation and the mission of the National Counter-Terrorism Center mandate such an approach, the report says.

It says that the Bush administration has relied primarily on the Pakistani military to address the threat to American national security.

About 96 percent of some $5.8 billion that the United States provided to Pakistan from 2002 to 2007 to address the problem in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and adjoining districts has gone to reimbursing the Pakistani military for the costs of its operations, according to the report.

But Pakistan, which deployed 120,000 troops and paramilitary forces in the rugged Massachusetts-size region, has failed to eliminate al Qaida and allied militants based there even though it's killed and captured hundreds of extremists while losing about 1,400 of its own forces.

"It is appalling that there is still no comprehensive, interagency strategy concerning this critical region, and this lack of foresight is harming U.S. national security," said Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., the chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee, which requested the report.

ON THE WEB

The GAO report: http://hcfa.house.gov/110/GAO041708.pdf

Last summer's GAO report on Iraq....white house "reluctance" to share it, triggered a leaking of it:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/200...%20report2.pdf

Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pinion/columns

The Vacation President By Dan Froomkin Special to washingtonpost.com Tuesday, March 4, 2008; 1:02 PM President Bush famously, if unjustifiably, casts himself as Ronald Reagan's disciple. But in at least one way, he has surpassed his master.According to the meticulous records kept by CBS Radio White House correspondent Mark Knoller, Bush on Monday lodged his 879th day spent in whole or in part at Camp David or his sprawling estate in Crawford, Tex.By comparison, the 40th president only -- only! -- spent all or part of 866 days at Camp David or his ranch in California during his eight years in office, according to the Reagan Library. (By my count, Bush actually beat Reagan's mark on Dec. 30, during his Christmas vacation in Crawford.)This, of course, is not the noblest of records to break. Reagan was frequently derided for his laid-back, hands-off approach to his job. He even poked fun of himself at the 1987 Gridiron Dinner: "It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance?"And, of course, Bush still has almost a year to go. His will almost certainly be a record for the ages.Bush's current tally represents a little more than a third of his presidency. And that's not counting the 39 days that Knoller says he spent in whole or in part at the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Me. All in all, Knoller says, Bush has made 134 separate visits to Camp David, 70 to Crawford and 10 to Kennebunkport in a little over seven years.Knoller didn't set out to be the chronicler of Bush's indolence. In fact, in our e-mail correspondence, he shied away from calling Bush's time away "vacation." Says Knoller: "I agree that he can never really be 'on vacation' - since the job is always with him."Knoller explains that he started collecting presidential travel data during the early days of the Clinton presidency. "I though it would be helpful to my radio reports to say how often he visited certain key states. So I started logging those visits. Then time 'on vacation'. . . . Then pardons, vetoes, addresses to the nation, rounds of golf, commencement speeches, foreign trips, news conferences, etc, etc."I liked having these little information nuggets that were not readily available elsewhere."Bush's aides go to great pains to point out that even during his frequent getaways from the office, he continues to do some, if not a lot, of work. He receives daily national security briefings, signs documents and sometimes holds teleconferences. An invitation to hang out with Bush at Camp David or Crawford is seen as a reward for friendly foreign leaders.But at some key points in his administration, Bush has been on vacation. For instance, he spent a month in Crawford shortly before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, when critics say he should have been more attentive to warning signs.<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A15957-2001Aug29&notFound=true" target="">Mike Allen</a> wrote in The Washington Post in August of 2001, as Bush's first long Crawford vacation wrapped up: "The length of the trip revived old questions about Bush's work ethic." Of course, no one knew at the time that Bush had, during the first week of that vacation, waved off the now-famous memo specifically for the president titled " <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A2285-2004Apr10?language=printer" target="">Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US</a>." According to author <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=gV3m6sYhnrsC&pg=PA2&dq=%22+covered+your+ass%22+suskind&ei=eHTNR5PYAqHeyATtxIHkAw&sig=j9X0bhAIixgatP0xDb_IySF6cZk" target="">Ron Suskind</a>, Bush heard his CIA briefer out -- then told him, "All right. You've covered your ass, now."The very next day, as <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A2676-2004Apr10&notFound=true" target="">Dana Milbank and Mike Allen</a> wrote in The Post in April 2004, Bush ran into reporters while playing golf at a nearby country club and "seemed carefree as he spoke about the books he was reading, the work he was doing on his nearby ranch, his love of hot-weather jogging, his golf game and his 55th birthday."<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/washington/06bush.html?_r=1&oref=slogin" target="">Sheryl Gay Stolberg</a> wrote in the New York Times in August 2006 that Bush was actually cutting short his time in Crawford that summer for symbolic purposes. "Last August . . . began with highly publicized protests by [Cindy] Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq, and ended with the image of the president on vacation while New Orleans drowned, an image that helped start his slide in popularity."Nevertheless, he was <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/08/08/BL2006080800490.html" target="">on vacation</a> as Israel dropped bombs on Lebanon later that month.<a href="http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/mason/5042364.html" target="">Julie Mason</a> noted in the Houston Chronicle this past August that Bush was fast approaching Reagan's record. She wrote: "The 1,600-acre ranch has proved a durable haven for Bush, who often disappears into its varied landscapes for days or weeks at a time without public appearances. He has an attractive stone house, shaded swimming pool, miles of rugged bike trails and law enforcement at every entry point keeping people out."In my May 8, 2006, column, " <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/05/08/BL2006050800788.html" target="">Would Bush Rather Be Fishing</a>?", I wondered if Bush doesn't really enjoy his day job. A few days earlier, when asked by a German tabloid to name the most wonderful moment of his presidency, Bush said it came while he was on vacation, fishing on his private lake.

Is the lack of a Bin Laden strategy or the vacation record the most incredile accomplishment? I'm torn!

Ustwo · 04-17-2008, 11:13 AM

jewels · 04-17-2008, 11:22 AM

Since this is the political thread ...

I love you, host. *bats eyelashes* I didn't read your post, but in response to your survey, Bush could never have achieved what he has without handlers every step of the way.

Those around him, those that excuse him and those that help to perpetuate him and push their own agendas are the ones I disrespect.

I think if it was up to Bush, he'd still be partying in a dorm.

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 11:28 AM

Perhaps there is a difference between a person having a view on an issue consistent with Bush and as you put it being a "Bush supporter". If you accept that difference then even those who literally hate Bush may be a supporter of Bush rather than as you put it a "Bush supporter".

You and many here seem to look at issues with a bias based on your dislike for Bush rather than principles, logic and reason. Unfortunately Congressional leadership has taken this approach and have been unable to lead effectively. It is a sad time for our nation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

Since this is the political thread ...

I love you, host. *bats eyelashes* I didn't read your post, but in response to your survey, Bush could never have achieved what he has without handlers every step of the way.

Those around him, those that excuse him and those that help to perpetuate him and push their own agendas are the ones I disrespect.

I think if it was up to Bush, he'd still be partying in a dorm.

This is an example of I reference above. Bush certainly has weaknesses as a human, we all do. Bush may not be the best speaker or have the IQ matching Einstein. But on the other hand you don't get elected governor of one of our largest states or get elected President being "handled". At some point you have to give him some credit for something.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 11:44 AM

I have a hard time understanding how anyone, particularly conservatives, can be so cavalier about Bush policies and actions:

* to spy on Americans without a warrant (Congress has held firm on a more accountable FISA bill)

* that allow torture (they call it "enhanced interrogation") of suspects held in US custody despite existing laws and treaty obligations(Congress has enacted new legislation to prevent it - Bush vetoed)

* enable the government to be more secretive than ever (the Dem Congress introduced several "open government bills" - FOIA, PRA, Contract Reform, etc" that have been blocked by Republicans or vetoed by Bush)

* spend more recklessly than any recent Administration and attempt to shield the spending through off-budget "special appropriations"

* politicize the Dept of Justice then refuse to respond to Congressional subpoenas.

* manipulate government scientific data to further a political agenda

* use signing statements and EOs to overturn the will of Congress and former Presidents

* use the RNC as its political arm to skirt election laws through programs of voter caging

* and on and on and on

Fortunately, those Bush apologists and sycophants are becoming increasingly marginalized.

ace..what you call "bias", I call an expectation that a president will abide by the rule of law and the Constitution.

Ustwo · 04-17-2008, 11:50 AM

Hey dc, since this is a troll thread with a troll poll and I have your attention, I've noticed you have only posted once in a non-political thread, at least as far back as I looked.

Do you get paid for this or is it free lance on the side?

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I have a hard time understanding how anyone, particularly conservatives, can be so cavalier about Bush policies and actions:

* to spy on Americans without a warrant (Congress has held firm on a more accountable FISA bill)

* that allow torture (they call it "enhanced interrogation") of suspects held in US custody despite existing laws and treaty obligations(Congress has enacted new legislation to prevent it - Bush vetoed)

* enable the government to be more secretive than ever (the Dem Congress introduced several "open government bills" - FOIA, PRA, Contract Reform, etc" that have been blocked by Republicans or vetoed by Bush)

* spend more recklessly than any recent Administration and attempt to shield the spending through off-budget "special appropriations"

* politicize the Dept of Justice then refuse to respond to Congressional subpoenas.

* manipulate government scientific data to further a political agenda

* use signing statements and EOs to overturn the will of Congress and former Presidents

* use the RNC as its political arm to skirt election laws through programs of voter caging

Fortunately, those Bush apologists and sycophants have become increasingly marginalized.

ace..what you call "bias", I call an expectation that a president will abide by the rule of law and the Constitution.

On each of the issues DC references above there are legitimate opposing views and in some cases historic patterns of behaviors by many if not all past Presidents who have acted in a manner similar or in some cases worse than what they accuse Bush of. Again, Bush has had his problems, I am not aware of a "perfect" Presidency, but he has done a few things worthy of merit. To those who dislike Bush - they can not seem to get past the emotion of their dislike to give the man any credit.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Hey dc, since this is a troll thread with a troll poll and I have your attention, I've noticed you have only posted once in a non-political thread, at least as far back as I looked.

Do you get paid for this or is it free lance on the side?

Ustwo...I am very well paid in my professional life. I just do this as a public service and for the satisfaction of getting the facts out.

I do get a little frustrated at times when you (and others) rarely offer a counter argument that is also based on facts.

silent_jay · 04-17-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

At some point you have to give him some credit for something.

I do, I give him credit for 2 things, being able to dress himself and being able to wipe his own ass, it's impressive he can accomplish this.

And Ustwo strikes again, trolling a thread with a topic he doesn't agree with.

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Ustwo...I am very well paid in my professional life. I just do this as a public service and for the satisfaction of getting the facts out.

I do get a little frustrated at times when you (and others) rarely offer a counter argument that is also based on facts.

We have been down this road before, and I generally don't like people to let people get away with trying to BS. On this "fact" based list you gave regarding Bush, how does it compare to a "fact" based list of any President in the last 100 years. Bush has had his issues, but so has every other President. You seem to imply that Bush has had issues and its all new or because of him. Our form of government is imperfect. People are imperfect. To suggest otherwise is BS.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 12:05 PM

ace....two wrongs dont make a right. The actions of former Presidents before our lifetime (none of whom I am aware of in the history of the country have been as excessive in their disdain for the Constitution and rule of law) dont excuse Bush's actions.

Didnt you learn than in kindergarten?

Cynthetiq · 04-17-2008, 12:12 PM

Let's keep this from mudslinging and flinging

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace....two wrongs dont make a right. The actions of former Presidents before our lifetime (none of whom I am aware of in the history of the country have been as excessive in their disdain for the Constitution and rule of law) dont excuse Bush's actions.

Didnt you learn than in kindergarten?

The question I have is related to consistency and being objective. I have admitted many things Bush has done that I thought were wrong. I can do that. I can do it on a boat.
I can do it on a boat, crossing a moat.
I can do it on a boat, crossing a moat, with a goat.

Opps, flash backs to kindergarten, sorry.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 12:23 PM

ace....you also said in other threads that you would do many of the same things as Bush, in fact "whatever you could get away with as President", even knowing that they were illegal and unconstitutional.

I have no respect for that position.

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace....you also said in other threads that you would do many of the same things as Bush, in fact "whatever you could get away with as President", even knowing that they were illegal and unconstitutional.

I have no respect for that position.

You take a complicated issue and overly simplify it, another example of BS.

What I say is that People generally do what is their best interest. And, we should expect that. A President in most instances will not ignore an opportunity to gain more power. I would do that. Perhaps you would not. However, if that is your nature and you live in a world with people like me, well...let's just say you would reap what you sow.

In the power struggles between the executive branch and Congress it has been a given and take, it has not always been pretty, it has not always been open, and it has not always been consistent with what our founding fathers intended. When "your/my guy" is winning "you/me" tend to ignore the unpleasant stuff, that is what I mean by "consistency" or being "objective", it takes effort. Some put in the effort some don't. To me it is obvious who does and who does not. I put in the effort and those who don't want to marginalize my view on issues where I support Bush, another example of BS.

I don't have a "Disney Land" (let's all be happy) view of politics. So in your overly simplified view of what I may or may not try to get away with you seem to suggest that you are on some morale high ground, but there is no high ground in politics. there never has been and there never will be - people will do what is their best interest.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 01:00 PM

ace...if you want to justify your extreme positions by criticizing my approach to, and understanding of, how our political system works...thats cool. It really doesnt offend me.

If you ever make it to Washington, I'll give you a grand tour and a few private lessons in government and politics....I'll even bring in some Repub friends as guest lecturers!

ratbastid · 04-17-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

On each of the issues DC references above there are legitimate opposing views and in some cases historic patterns of behaviors by many if not all past Presidents who have acted in a manner similar or in some cases worse than what they accuse Bush of. Again, Bush has had his problems, I am not aware of a "perfect" Presidency, but he has done a few things worthy of merit. To those who dislike Bush - they can not seem to get past the emotion of their dislike to give the man any credit.

You know what? His policy on Africa, and the difference he's made there, is excellent and under-recognized. I'll give him that; Africa loves the guy, and he's made a big humanitarian effort there.

I also agree with him on Israel. I had to go stare at myself in a mirror for a while after realizing these two things.

Those people who still give him a favorable rating... I just can't get my head around it.

aceventura3 · 04-17-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace...if you want to justify your extreme positions by criticizing my approach to, and understanding of, how our political system works...thats cool. It really doesnt offend me.

Do you have a "Disney Land" view of politics?
Has there been power struggles in Washington?
Have those struggles been pretty? Open? Fair? Honest?
Do people - do what is in their best interest?
Do you really think my view on government are extreme?
Or, am I saying things about government that are simply better left unsaid?

Quote:

If you ever make it to Washington, I'll give you a grand tour and a few private lessons in government and politics....I'll even bring in some Repub friends as guest lecturers!

Ironically I going to be in the D.C. area over the weekend. My sister-in-law and her husband are career government employees and very liberal, they try to give me "private lessons" all the time so I don't need to take you up on your offer. Funny thing is that for people who went straight from college to government work - they would be more interested in life outside the beltway so they would have better insight into the needs of the people they serve.

loquitur · 04-17-2008, 01:13 PM

When people mistake politics for religion you get topics like this one.

Ustwo · 04-17-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Let's keep this from mudslinging and flinging

Start with the op.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Ironically I going to be in the D.C. area over the weekend. My sister-in-law and her husband are career government employees and very liberal, they try to give me "private lessons" all the time so I don't need to take you up on your offer. Funny thing is that for people who went straight from college to government work - they would be more interested in life outside the beltway so they would have better insight into the needs of the people they serve.

Damn, ace....Passover starts this weekend, so I cant party with you anyway.

Maybe next time I am down your way. I dont travel as much as I did in the past, but I still get out to meet local government leaders and corporate execs around the country fairly often to get a hands on feel for the issues facing the people I work with.

I could probably squeeze you in.

powerclown · 04-17-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

When people mistake politics for religion you get topics like this one.

That, and when masks start to slip.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

That, and when masks start to slip.

I look forward to the day when issues can be discussed and debated and supported by facts....rather than the more common posting by some of inane pictures (or inane one-liners) or others of posing new irrelevant questions each time they are presented with factual information that challenges their position!

The facts may shake up some pre-conceived opinions...put the pain is only temporary.

roachboy · 04-17-2008, 03:41 PM

well, there seems to be a kind of rule of thumb abroad in the land that if you've got nothing to say and that fact makes you snarky, act out.

works great in a debate forum. just look at the thread. and of course, it's no-one's fault. naturally.

Cynthetiq · 04-17-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

well, there seems to be a kind of rule of thumb abroad in the land that if you've got nothing to say and that fact makes you snarky, act out.

works great in a debate forum. just look at the thread. and of course, it's no-one's fault. naturally.

very good point.

the idea that if you can't discuss it, use the back button should be more sought after as a response.

reconmike · 04-17-2008, 04:09 PM

I find it hard to believe that the mods let this poll/thread start from the begining. It is a troll from the get go, so being it was allowed to continue I will start my own poll.

Who do you respect more? The democrat party or the loons that follow it?

powerclown · 04-17-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike

Who do you respect more? The democrat party or the loons that follow it?

Can I study this for a bit and get back to you on it?
Im currently in deep contemplation of the BLAME AMERICA SYNAPSE region.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 04:27 PM

powerclown and reconmike......study it as long as you like.

Then, when you are ready to have a fact-based discussion on any of the issues raised in any recent TFP politics thread......let me know!

I'll look forward to it.

Cynthetiq · 04-17-2008, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

the idea that if you can't discuss it, use the back button should be more sought after as a response.

let me change that to darkorange

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

the idea that if you can't discuss it, use the back button should be more sought after as a response.

I'll give it another day or two. Next post that isn't to discuss the OP will lock the thread and get a warning. Otherwise let it sink to the bottom if the community finds it not a worthy topic for discussion.

reconmike · 04-17-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

powerclown and reconmike......study it as long as you like.

Then, when you are ready to have a fact-based discussion on any of the issues raised in the any recent TFP politics threads......let me know!

I'll look forward to it.

This isnt a thread, this is a flat out troll.

And quite frankly I couldn't give a flying rat's ass if Host or any other of the Hostites respected me, hell I love a good draft dodger as long as he rots in prison.

dc_dux · 04-17-2008, 04:33 PM

Any issue....any thread...any time

waiting for a warning

Seaver · 04-17-2008, 06:27 PM

This thread is dumb.

I'm honestly tempted to start a new poll/thread.

What do you have less respect for?
1) Liberals
2) Liberals who support liberal theology
3) Liberals who preach liberal thoughts

It doesn't exactly lend itself to a discussion does it? It would and should be closed asap.

ratbastid · 04-17-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

It doesn't exactly lend itself to a discussion does it? It would and should be closed asap.

Yet here we are on page two.

There are problems with the thread, but its discuss-ability isn't one of them, IMO.

ubertuber · 04-17-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Yet here we are on page two.

There are problems with the thread, but its discuss-ability isn't one of them, IMO.

I disagree - there are two pages, but almost all the posts are responses to the trolling thread title. This is a discussion forum. Who is going to be moved to discuss this OP? Only people who already agree with it. Everyone else will see it as it must have been intended: a giant middle finger.

I'm disappointed.

View Poll Results: Do you have less respect for Mr. Bush, or people who still support and defend him?
I have less respect for Bush's defenders and supporters than for Bush	4	66.67%
My lack of respect is about equal.	2	33.33%
I have less respect for Mr. Bush than for his defenders and supporters.	0	0%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

04-17-2008, 11:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	__________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-17-2008, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	Since this is the political thread ... I love you, host. bats eyelashes I didn't read your post, but in response to your survey, Bush could never have achieved what he has without handlers every step of the way. Those around him, those that excuse him and those that help to perpetuate him and push their own agendas are the ones I disrespect. I think if it was up to Bush, he'd still be partying in a dorm. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

04-17-2008, 11:44 AM	#5 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I have a hard time understanding how anyone, particularly conservatives, can be so cavalier about Bush policies and actions: * to spy on Americans without a warrant (Congress has held firm on a more accountable FISA bill) * that allow torture (they call it "enhanced interrogation") of suspects held in US custody despite existing laws and treaty obligations(Congress has enacted new legislation to prevent it - Bush vetoed) * enable the government to be more secretive than ever (the Dem Congress introduced several "open government bills" - FOIA, PRA, Contract Reform, etc" that have been blocked by Republicans or vetoed by Bush) * spend more recklessly than any recent Administration and attempt to shield the spending through off-budget "special appropriations" * politicize the Dept of Justice then refuse to respond to Congressional subpoenas. * manipulate government scientific data to further a political agenda * use signing statements and EOs to overturn the will of Congress and former Presidents * use the RNC as its political arm to skirt election laws through programs of voter caging * and on and on and on Fortunately, those Bush apologists and sycophants are becoming increasingly marginalized. ace..what you call "bias", I call an expectation that a president will abide by the rule of law and the Constitution. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-17-2008 at 11:48 AM..

04-17-2008, 11:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Hey dc, since this is a troll thread with a troll poll and I have your attention, I've noticed you have only posted once in a non-political thread, at least as far back as I looked. Do you get paid for this or is it free lance on the side? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-17-2008, 12:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	ace....two wrongs dont make a right. The actions of former Presidents before our lifetime (none of whom I am aware of in the history of the country have been as excessive in their disdain for the Constitution and rule of law) dont excuse Bush's actions. Didnt you learn than in kindergarten? __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

04-17-2008, 12:12 PM	#12 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Let's keep this from mudslinging and flinging __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

04-17-2008, 12:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	ace....you also said in other threads that you would do many of the same things as Bush, in fact "whatever you could get away with as President", even knowing that they were illegal and unconstitutional. I have no respect for that position. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

04-17-2008, 01:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	ace...if you want to justify your extreme positions by criticizing my approach to, and understanding of, how our political system works...thats cool. It really doesnt offend me. If you ever make it to Washington, I'll give you a grand tour and a few private lessons in government and politics....I'll even bring in some Repub friends as guest lecturers! __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

04-17-2008, 01:13 PM	#19 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	When people mistake politics for religion you get topics like this one.

04-17-2008, 03:41 PM	#24 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, there seems to be a kind of rule of thumb abroad in the land that if you've got nothing to say and that fact makes you snarky, act out. works great in a debate forum. just look at the thread. and of course, it's no-one's fault. naturally. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

04-17-2008, 04:09 PM	#26 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	I find it hard to believe that the mods let this poll/thread start from the begining. It is a troll from the get go, so being it was allowed to continue I will start my own poll. Who do you respect more? The democrat party or the loons that follow it? __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him? Last edited by reconmike; 04-17-2008 at 04:23 PM..

04-17-2008, 04:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	powerclown and reconmike......study it as long as you like. Then, when you are ready to have a fact-based discussion on any of the issues raised in any recent TFP politics thread......let me know! I'll look forward to it. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-17-2008 at 04:30 PM..

04-17-2008, 04:33 PM	#31 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Any issue....any thread...any time waiting for a warning __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

04-17-2008, 06:27 PM	#32 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	This thread is dumb. I'm honestly tempted to start a new poll/thread. What do you have less respect for? 1) Liberals 2) Liberals who support liberal theology 3) Liberals who preach liberal thoughts It doesn't exactly lend itself to a discussion does it? It would and should be closed asap. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas