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View Poll Results: Is Waterboarding, Torture? Has Pres. Bush Now Admitted to Approving Torture? | |||
Waterboarding is a from of Torture and it is illegal to do | 24 | 100.00% | |
Waterboarding is not a from of Torture and it is legal to do | 0 | 0% | |
President Bush seems to admit knowing about & approving waterboarding | 16 | 66.67% | |
President Bush seems NOT to admit knowing about & approving waterboarding | 0 | 0% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-14-2008, 08:12 AM | #1 (permalink) | |||||
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Is Waterboarding, Torture? Has Pres. Bush Now Admitted to Approving Torture?
Bush: <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9956644/">"We do not torture" terror suspects</a>
Bush defends interrogation practices: <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-07-bush-terror-suspects_x.htm">"We do not torture"</a> <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415132.stm">US does not torture</a>, Bush insists <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/08/wbush08.xml">We do not torture detainees</a>, says Bush Bush: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110700772.html">"We do not torture"</a> Quote:
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Doesn't this seem a huge departure from longstanding US policy and principle? Isn't Bush's admission, grounds for impeachment, based on the precedent of a US general's court martial for the same thing happening, on his watch? Last edited by host; 04-14-2008 at 08:19 AM.. |
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04-14-2008, 08:37 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
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Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
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Oh -- i forgot. Yes, he could have had a blow job. The centrist/right wing of the Democrats, Hillary & Co. included, went along with the lies, mostly out of gutlessness & stupidity. To impeach Bush would mean accepting some responsibility. It's not going to happen. |
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04-14-2008, 09:01 AM | #4 (permalink) | ||||||
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administration's DOJ was for the year 2000, before the current occupants took office. There has been no follow up to the DOJ Nov. 1, 2003 WAPO news story that the OPR had opened an investigation into the prosecutorial misconduct exposed in October, 2003, that occurred in the 1983 prosection of former CIA operative Edwin P. Wilson. I suspect that as long as the public can be distracted by tripe like "a runaway bride", the "jacko" trial and acquittal, and the Bush SSI crisis road show, sprinkled with the post Schiavo circus demands for judicial "accountability, no OPR reports need ever be made public again. Some of you voted for more of this, but you remind me that you are the true patriots, and I am the negative, subversive, un-American dissenter! [quote]http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/editpos...post&p=1768929 I am observing that there is very little interest here about this story of a Federal Justice Dept. and CIA conspiracy that knowingly carried out a fraud upon the court by submitting as evidence a false and damning affadavit against Ed Wilson that led to him serving 10 years in solitary confinement, and an additional 12 years in a "super max" federal prison. I am adding the following just for reference: (Good news??? The government is "investigating"?.....Hardly... there has been no follow up on this in 19 months, ABC news and the NY Times did not report on the WA PO report below, and the "Office of Professional Responsibility" at <a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/opr/reports.htm">http://www.usdoj.gov/opr/reports.htm</a> has not issued an annual report since 2001, coinciding with the current administration's tenure in office. So....two federal judges and as many as 15 other top government officials continue to hold high office with no accountability relating to their actions in this fraud!) Quote:
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04-14-2008, 06:06 PM | #5 (permalink) |
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I don't know enough to say who knew how much and when, although recent accounts (such as the new Frontline 'Bush's War') seem to indicate that prisoner abuses were the result of a deliberate and high-level redefinition of 'torture' carried out amid a pervasive government-wide feeling that 'the gloves should come off'.
On the question of waterboarding, it is absolutely and unmistakably a form of torture, period. Malcolm Nance has an informative piece over at Small Wars Journal on this subject: http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/200...torture-perio/ Nance should know, as he has conducted waterboardings himself. The common mantra of waterboarding as a 'simulation' is vastly misleading. It is not a simulated drowning but a controlled drowning. |
04-15-2008, 04:10 PM | #6 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Ventura County
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Members of the Bush administration met and discussed the issue of interrogation techniques and gave CIA agents clear guidelines on what they thought would be legal and acceptable questioning techniques. There is no evidence that these people failed to act in good faith. In fact I think they showed a high level of responsibility in meeting and issuing guidelines on this subject. The legality of water boarding as a questioning technique used by the CIA against military combatants was not clearly defined as illegal at the time it was used by the CIA. In 2007 Bush signed an executive order banning torture during the interrogation of terror suspects. Certainly we can debate the complexities of the issue, however, there is no clear argument that Bush or members of his administration violated any law. some people even disagree if water boarding is torture depending on how the technique is administered. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-15-2008, 04:42 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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It's funny, you see people who haven't experienced it saying it isn't torture, because they 'don't think it inflicts pain', yet they aren't sure, so how can they say it doesn't inflict pain?
Now take a look at hiredgun's link to the SWJ and Malcolm Nance (who has been waterboarded, was the Master Instructor at SERE) saying it absolutely torture, in fact the same type of torture John McCain went through in Hanoi. Now who would you believe? The politician who 'doesn't think it causes pain' or the ex-SERE instructor who has been waterboarded and has watreboarded hundreds of people? I like this quote as well: Quote:
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04-16-2008, 06:54 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Under the UN Convention against torture they state there has to be "severe" pain rather than "pain". This is not clear. I think the world would be better served if under international law and under our law if specific techniques were put in these laws rather than subjective definitions of what "pain" or "severe pain" is. Don't you guys agree?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-16-2008, 07:13 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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uh---i don't see how this is an ethically tenable position, ace, particularly since unless you have yourself been waterboarded, you are speculating--so have you been subjected to this yourself?
if not, then you're aestheticizing the pain of another (by making it an abstract entity that you can contemplate, like a thing a toaster or a towel) on the one hand, and then diminishing it by comparing what you imagine it to be against some arbitrary standard---it'd be like having someone shove a pin into your fingernail while telling you that it didn't *really* hurt. seems an ugly road to go down if the only real basis for your position is that you think the bush people acted in good faith when they decided to make the argument that this was not torture--which was linked to their claim that the geneva conventions were "quaint"...and it doesn't seem to me that you have any actual information to go on beyond this assertion of good faith--hell, even the frontline series "bush's war" provides you with enough information to bring this assertion into serious question. i'd suggest you at least watch it. because the argument is the usual argument: these standards apply when they affect american troops--but when the states is reacting, anything goes. nearly. this is such a horrific idea, such a ridiculous precedent to set--think about it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 04-16-2008 at 07:17 AM.. |
04-16-2008, 07:42 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Roachboy,
All I am saying is the law needs to be specific. I don't want to be water boarded, I don't even think I would have the ability to do it to a living being - human or animal. However, being at war is an ugly business, a life and death business. Those executing a war deserve clear and specific guildlines. If what we are saying is that we disagree on whether or not water boarding a person willing to attach a bomb to his body and explode the bomb killing himself, innocent children, women, elderly, disabled, relief workers, etc., is putting that person in "severe" pain and suffering that is one thing. I can accept that as a legitimate criticism of the administration. However, to suggest that Bush deserves to be impeached because he attempted to add clarity to the issue of torture for the CIA is something else - and I find that hard to accept.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
04-16-2008, 07:45 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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04-16-2008, 07:46 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-16-2008, 09:54 AM | #14 (permalink) | |||
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This is a better description than I could write myself, making the argument that it is time for the house to form an impeachment investigation committee: Quote:
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04-16-2008, 10:02 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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"Depends on what you're definition of 'torture' is" which seems to be the common excuse to torture people presently, sounds suspiciously like "Depends on what you're definition of 'is' is."
Why is it that there seems to be a great deal of group overlap between the people who can't fathom any justifications for complex, nuanced perspectives on race relations and the people who also feel that we need complex, nuanced justifications for torture? I know it's a threadjack, so please forgive. This shouldn't be the type of thing we should be having complex, nuanced discussions about. Intellectually honest people don't need the law to define torture for them. If folks think torture is useful they should just say that. Enough of this bullshit, "Well, we only stuck pins under the nail on the pinky finger, so that's not really torture" business. If we're going to torture people, we should admit it openly, and go from there. Then again, admitting the utility of torture would seem to take a bit of the wind out of the "We needed to invade Iraq because Saddam was evil" justification for the invasion of Iraq, which is something I'm not sure the current admin wants to do (despite the fact that the current admin has very little credibility left anyway). It's difficult to convincingly complain about your enemies' rape rooms when you essentially set up one of your own following your invasion. |
04-16-2008, 10:23 AM | #18 (permalink) | |||
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"Regular" "good Americans"...they elected a president who they consider a "regular guy", someone who they could sit down and drink a beer with, and then torture whoever he told them to torture..... Quote:
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04-16-2008, 10:54 AM | #20 (permalink) | ||||
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Last edited by host; 04-16-2008 at 11:00 AM.. |
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04-16-2008, 10:57 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I'm not disgusted at having a thorough and complete definition. I'm pretty disgusted at the thought of any definition that would EXCLUDE waterboarding. |
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04-16-2008, 11:04 AM | #23 (permalink) | ||
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search The contrast makes you wonder about the rot and mediocrity inside the military, and in politics, and in corporate board rooms. Gen. Petraeus's open partisanship and "yes man" attitude come to mind. Last month, the admiral who called Petraeus Quote:
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04-16-2008, 11:11 AM | #24 (permalink) | |
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http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj..._hero.html#RON |
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04-16-2008, 11:16 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
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http://www.google.com/search?q=my+la...&start=10&sa=N |
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04-16-2008, 12:00 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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How is this: Questioning Guidelines for CIA: All terror suspects should be in air-conditioned or heated room at a temp of 70 degrees. They should be offered a comfortable chair or couch. If they have lower back issues and special seating is required, make sure it is available. After 2.5 hours of questioning they get a 15 minute break. Please supply coffee and donuts. Check for peanut allergies before offering donuts! After 4 hours of questioning they get 1/2 hour for lunch. Play soft music, offer a 3 course meal that excludes pork. Do not shout or raise your voice to the point were it may cause emotional pain or torment. Etc. Etc.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-16-2008 at 12:08 PM.. |
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04-16-2008, 12:23 PM | #27 (permalink) |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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Offering reasons for cooperation other than the ending of induced physical and mental torment? Showing these individuals that we really aren't evil sadistic psychopaths hellbent on the destruction of their people, religion, and way of life?
What the hell, it works on Star Trek!
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We Must Dissent. |
04-17-2008, 11:08 AM | #28 (permalink) |
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Looking back through this thread I am having some trouble wrapping my head around how the question of what waterboarding fundamentally is is somehow escaping a decisive answer.
Forget the details. Waterboarding is the infliction of pain and terror for the purpose of extracting information. What possible definition of torture could exclude that activity? The only way this is possible is if the person answering the question is committed to the idea that 'torture' is by definition something done to us, whereas we by definition do not torture, and for this reason we must tweak the definition of torture in a way that emphasizes for all to see that what we do is not as bad as what they do and therefore cannot be classified as torture. If you want to claim that waterboarding is justified, go ahead. I am more than willing to engage you in conversation about whether we can execute the form of torture known as waterboarding and still retain the moral high ground. But the therapeutic attempt to redefine the terms of debate in a way that leaves intact your increasingly dissonant framework of self-righteousness.... this seems to me kind of pathetic. |
04-17-2008, 11:47 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
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We can maintain the moral high ground if we like, as unlike our opponents who behead people and put it on the internet, or cut off body parts, we do no permanent harm with it. They still have all their pieces in working order when its done, nor are they in a body bag. We are fighting an unconventional UN-uniformed enemy who views civilians as targets. If we want to play geneva convention games, they should be shot as spies.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 04-17-2008 at 12:22 PM.. Reason: UN got left out |
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04-17-2008, 12:04 PM | #30 (permalink) | |||
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Tonight, when you're done working, ask a trustworthy friend to come over. Give him a question to ask you that you're not comfortable answering (did you ever have sex with a man?). Put on a bathing suit, and lay in your bathtub with your head near the drain and your feet up. Put a blindfold on. Wrap your face in cellophane with just enough openings to breathe. Have your friend bind your feet and tie your hands to the spigots, to where you're incapable of escaping. Have your friend, without warning, slowly dump a few gallons of water over your face, trying to take as long as a minute or so. Have him refill the water container at a sink, and repeat. Have him repeat until you say yes, regardless of whether you've had sex with a man or not. After you've regained your breath, think about all of the innocent people that have been released from Gitmo who were waterboarded. Welcome to being a liberal. Quote:
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04-17-2008, 12:12 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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And as it relates to the Bush administration, why didn't the CIA have clear guidelines prior to Bush taking office? Did other President's know what was going on and ignored it? Are you assuming questionable questioning techniques only started under the Bush Admin? Seems to me Bush deserves some credit for attempting to add clarity to an issue while not pretending it was not happening. For that Host calls for his impeachment??? That seems pathetic in my book.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-17-2008, 12:18 PM | #32 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Permanent harm doesn't have to be noticeable physical damage Ustwo, my shoulder has been separated 9 times, does that count as permanent injury? By you it doesn't because I still have all my pieces.
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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04-17-2008, 12:20 PM | #34 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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These are human beings. Human beings respond to kindness one way, and cruelty another way. Let me put it like this: the people who did 9/11 didn't do it because they believe we're so kind to them. A beaten dog will eventually bite. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate, and Hate leads to suffering. No wonder Darth Cheney is so gung-ho for torture. Last edited by ratbastid; 04-17-2008 at 12:22 PM.. |
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04-17-2008, 12:23 PM | #35 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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04-17-2008, 12:23 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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04-17-2008, 12:33 PM | #37 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-17-2008, 12:34 PM | #38 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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" The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album. The music was so foreign to them it made them frantic, sources said." Hahaha now thats torture. And I still don't care.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
04-17-2008, 12:37 PM | #40 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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“What's in there?” “Only what you take with you." We must face the question of torture in the face of an enemy that is ruthless. Human weakness is a reality, Bush has not hidden from the issue.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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admitted, approving, bush, pres, torture, waterboarding |
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