jewels

Pan: If the Judge is to maintain order in his Courtroom, he may see fit to discipline those who disrupt the Court proceedings. He chose not to humiliate them in front of others. Why would that be considered "abuse of power"?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

ratbastid

No. Justice--that which theoretically occurs while court is in session inside a courtroom--is blind. A courtroom itself is just a room. It has walls, doors, tables, chairs. It has no special significance. What happens in it while court is NOT in session (as was the case here) is DIFFERENT from "blind justice".

We get into strange thought patterns when we confuse the container for the thing contained.

Ustwo

So only blacks can discuss, and solve black issues, us white folk can't understand or comment.

Really, thats perhaps the most racist thing ever said on these boards.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

host

willravel, this isn't meant for you, but maybe someone else who needs to hear it will benefit.

If you talk to black people who you know, if you ask them how it feels, what they are going through....experiencing, they'll tell you. I have a friend who enjoys a business partnership with a black man. Every, I mean every time he visits her in her white northern Westchester, NY suburban neighborhood, he gets pulled over by a white local cop and asked what he's doing and where he is going.

He handles the sales end of their partnership, because he is the one with the disarming personality. My friend says that when white people meet him at the door for the first time, they are afraid to let him come through it, and at the end of their meeting with him, they are reluctant to let it end and say good bye to him.

The man lives and works in a white world, but he is not accepted in it.

I see on this thread and on others recently and on older threads where objections to affirmative action were posted, a resentment that seems based on the idea that something is being taken away from those objecting, if non white males are given equal or extra equal opportunity.

To use my oft relied on pro baseball example, when one slot was given on a team to Jackie Robinson, there was one less slot, until the next league expansion, for yet another white player. All the slots, all the opportunities had been reserved for white players.

The exclusive white opportunity was held by force. Whites "only" weren't entitled to every team slot. It was so because of a fucking distortion, conceived and maintained at the point of a gun, a shackle, chain, leg iron, a lynching rope, reinforced by the language in the US Constitution, itself.

If you ask a black friend how it's going, what it was like for them, growing up, and you share your life story and experience, and you have the "take" on how things are....along the lines of my "baseball" analogy, the black people who you know, will sense it, and they'll talk to you.

If you operate as if "every slot", every opportunity is naturally ordained for whites..men..was and always has been, and blacks, women, or anybody other than white men, will just have to suck it up and find a way to break in...to take one of those "white man slots" for themselves....like Jackie Robinson did, people who you try to talk to, will sense that, too.

Nothing is being taken way from you pan, Ustwo.... that wasn't rightfully available to you. It's just that for forever in this country, all the slots were pretty much reserved for white men, and they got too used to it.

But, it wasn't right....it was a distortion, maintained by local cops, with guns, dogs, firehoses, and by every white person who rode on or drove a bus!

Dr. King said, if you get your back up straight, nobody can ride on it. That advice wasn't meant for you if you are a white man....chances are you've been riding all of your life.

Willravel

Well, Ustwo, we may be able to get close to putting ourselves in their shoes, but having not been that way since birth it's easy for us to miss something when factoring in. There's nothing racist about that.

roachboy

what?
you cannot possibly be serious.
care to explain this remark?

maybe if i can understand such thought as there is behind a remark like this--- which seems to bereft of ANY thought-----i can come to understand what this farce of a thread is about--that is at what possible level it even starts to make sense.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ratbastid

I can always tell when I've got your dander up, because you post so fast you forget to read.

I didn't say white folk can't understand or comment. I'm not sure I agree entirely with willravel on this--I think it's possible we could understand, and it sure would be nice if more WOULD, or would at least TRY.

But to say "if a white judge blahdy blah blah" without even an ATTEMPT at understanding a black person's perspective is flat out ignorant and doesn't move the race conversation forward. That's my point.

Strange Famous

I guess racism is America's blind spot... which maybe figures, because for American's there is no "blood and soil" nationalism possible - so identity must seem so much more up in the air.

White Americans have no more or less roots to the land than black Americans (and neither of them can even speak Spanish), perhaps this leads to insensitivity to the crime of slavery amongst many whites? They must just see it as a free for all which they happened to win?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

Yes, I'll never know what its like to 'be' black, and as I already stated I have absolutely NO problem at all with what the judge did.

But I can sort of see pans issue because the only way this is acceptable is because it is a black judge.

Were a white judge to do the SAME thing and give the SAME speech, black 'leaders' would be calling for his head.

Perhaps the real issue right now is you are only allowed to talk about race if you are a member of that race. Instead of fostering working together its only members of that race allowed to talk about the issues in the first place everyone else is suppose to ignore them.

I once read a short story, the details are not important, but I liked how they did their court. The trial itself was pretty much the same as today, but the judge who did the sentencing/conviction never saw the trial except as vague shadows, never heard their voices. He only got a neutral recording, where race/gender/age etc were unknown. I think perhaps thats the sort of system we will need in the very near future to end the perception that justice for black men can only come from a black man.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

host

You repeated the same, "if it was a white judge", as you did in your other post, as if ratbastid had not directly addressed your comment.

The cops and prosecutors are a much greater problem, as far as the perception or reality of "equal" justice, than the judges, yet you offer no proposal to "blind" them.

Willravel

Um, I speak a bit of spanish. And one of my ancestors was native American.

But yes, black, white, latino, asian, etc. can all be racist.

Ustwo

Who said I didn't? You need to quit deciding what I do, and how I do it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

maybe, just maybe, as a function of the depressing and shameful history of racism explicit and institutionalized in the states, african-americans have been aggregated differently than have euro-americans, such that there is a different weight to the term, and a more tangible sense that it refers to a discrete culture (i don't like that word because it implies something more self-enclosed and self-enclosing than seems appropriate in most cases, this included)---so that would mean, as a function of the history of racism explicit and institutionalized in the states, african-american and "white" are *not* parallel terms, that they refer to different senses of identification--and so the analogy that ustwo seems to like repeating--"if the situation were reversed..." is as ridiculous as is the logic of this entire thread--and it encapsulates that logic, such as it is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

You still here? I thought telling people to shut the fuck up would be a time out.

Anyways OJ was framed, blah blah. For the record I don't think the issue is racism, I think the issue is perception, I think black men are committing a disproportionate amount of crime, and apparently, according to this judge, thats a issue that needs black on black only conversation.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

I am still trying to understand how a judge privately lecturing a group of defendants after the conclusion of court business is an abuse of power worthy of removal from the bench....as recommended in the OP.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

OJ was guilty. This judge is innocent.

Ustwo

See we can agree

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

The case against OJ was a joke.

He prolly did beat his ex-wife up.... and he should serve time for it.

He didnt kill anyone, the timescales proposed by the prosecution never should have even been allowed to trial.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

roachboy

dc: that's easy.
it isn't.
the idea it could be is very very strange.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

uncle phil

Nothing to do to save his life call his wife in
Nothing to say but what a day how's your boy been
Nothing to do it's up to you
I've got nothing to say but it's O.K.

sorry...i got nothin'...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Martian

I'm failing to comprehend where the issue is here. In order to aid in my comprehension, I will in this post summarize the events that occurred as I understand them.

1) Black judge recognizes that black people in the United States of America are more likely to be socially disadvantaged are as a consequence or as a parallel to this more likely to possess a lower standard of education and more likely to turn to crime. Black judge concludes that this is a problem that needs to be addressed first and foremost by black Americans.

2) Black judge recognizes that he is part of a small group of people uniquely positioned to address the situation, since he is able to say things that would be considered socially unacceptable coming from his white colleagues, and is able to recognize and address black Americans who are participating in this culture of crime in a way that his black peers in other professions may not.

3) Black judge decides to take advantage of this position and exercise his right to address his people after the duties of his office have been fulfilled and as a citizen rather than a figure of authority.

4) Black judge decides that this is an issue that is best addressed in relative privacy, and as a consequence of that decision requests that anyone who is not related to the issue as he perceives it (ie anyone who isn't black) to leave the room so that he may do so.

This is the chain of events as I understand it based on the video and articles posted. Is this a case of racism because he asked the non-blacks to leave the room? Or is it racist because he chose to address the issue at all?

Race is clearly a key component here, but race issues and racism are not the same thing. It was my understanding that the fact that black Americans tend to be economically and socially disadvantaged is more or less irrefutable. Given that there is a distinct black culture and that from an outside perspective (viewing black entertainment and keeping a casual eye on the news and on crime statistics) this appears to be perpetuated at least in part by black Americans themselves, I don't see where this judge choosing to address the issue is racist. Is it a fallacy to assume that things like rap music that promotes crime and violence and continually uses racial slurs promotes racial barriers?

I just don't understand what the fuss is here.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

loquitur

I don't think what the judge wanted to say was wrong. I certainly understand the pain that a person has when he sees members of his own ethnic group screwing up, and I surely don't blame him from wanting to set them straight. The only thing that strikes me as "off" about this is that he did it in a public courtroom. It's not the world's worst offense, but judges aren't supposed to use taxpayer facilities in a manner not open to the whole public. I'd cut the guy slack on this one, there was nothing vicious about what he was doing, and nothing even racist. But someone should tell him that it shouldn't become a habit.

uncle phil

i read through all the posts...

i posted my own reaction...

now i must ask, "what was the reason for this original post?"

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Hanxter

why don't you all just shut the fuck up???

FoolThemAll

Damn, lost my response. Oh well, it wasn't all that interesting anyway. I'll just complement host for managing to flame pan without citing five irrelevant articles.

This is overblown at most. Maybe the courtroom wasn't the right place and maybe the judge was a bit presumptuous to exclude, but it's still minor and not racist.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

samcol

Ya, for someone who is supposed to be impartial and fair to everyone it kinda looks bad to seperate people by race after a trial regardless of the reason. Not that it even bothers me at all what he did, but some people not like it I guess considering its a government funded place.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

genuinegirly

I fail to understand why my opinion is being solicited when the op made it clear only his perspective was welcome.

This is not reverse racism. This is not unacceptable behavior. This is simply someone from a demographic that wishes to reverse frightening trends that he sees within.

I fail to understand why anyone would take issue with a well-intentioned, non-hurtful judge.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

pan6467

First for all those who said "shut the fuck up".... you don't have to post, you don't even have to visit this thread.

Secondly, last time I checked a courtroom was government property, paid for by tax dollars. It's why judges can't have the 10 Commandments hanging on their walls..... because they are supposed to have NO biases. How do we know he hasn't given lighter sentences to blacks, or harsher sentences to blacks? Maybe we should look into his judgment rulings and see how he has ruled his court. This shows extreme bias to me and again abuse of power. You can sugar coat and make excuses all you want... it's wrong and should not have been done.

Wonder if Obama was asked for his reaction and he said the judge was wrong, what the reaction in here would be.

If a white judge had thrown out everyone of color, there would have been lawsuits, demands for the man/woman's job, people looking into his past, people demanding he be prosecuted and people protesting. And some of those very people, I would lay odds on, are posters here supporting what this judge did. (And I haven't gambled in 9 years 14 days and 12 hours.... but this wouldn't be a gamble.)

I am surprised not one person commented on the MLK post I had. But then again it doesn't suit their purpose. They want to make me a racist and tell me how I am full of hate. That's your right, just as it is mine to give my view on this news item.

My view would be exactly the same if a woman threw out all the men or vice versa, if a white threw out all of color, if a Christian judge threw out all non Christians (and I would be one thrown out) and so on. I do not see 1 person defending this man saying that. I see them avoiding the question I asked in the OP, telling me to "shut the fuck up", implying yet again how I am a racist.... but NOT 1 post I have seen condemning me for my views, or supporting this judge has answered the OP question.

That leaves me to ask why?

Racism and hatred know no color.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Pan, in my opinion the judge's actions had no bias at all. He sees the amount of black youths in front of him as a judge. He knows. He was tired of it and felt it was his responsibility as a black community leader to say something. And guess what? The white people in the courtroom didn't need to hear it. It wasn't directed at them at all. It was directed at fellow black people. He was attempting to be responsible, and I personally feel he should be commended if for nothing else but for his intent.

Moving on to the broader intent of this thread, which is not in the least bit subtle, no one cares if you're racist or not. I don't care. MM probably doesn't care. Host doesn't care. I am however getting a bit tired of your recent Mr. Hyde transformation. Just yesterday you jumped into a thread for the singular purpose of singling me out. You actually told me I didn't need to visit or comment in a thread. It's really annoying to say the least. If you have some sort of problem, then it's your responsibility to fix it. Stop taking whatever is going on with you out on me and anyone else, please. I've had enough. And if you have a problem with me, discuss it with me. Whether you think so or not, I'm a pretty reasonable guy. These attacks and passive aggressive jabs need to stop if for no other reason then for the level of quality here on TFP.

pan6467

Where's your answer to the OP question? Would you say the same thing and defend a white judge doing this? Avoidance is an answer in and of itself.



Among others.....

No no one at all is attacking me personally, for my views and opinions.

The rest is personal and should be done in IM not here. This thread is not about me or what I have done or perceived to have done in other threads.
his thread is about a judge that IMHO abused his power. If you wish to comment on that and only that in this thread cool. Anything else feel free to IM me about or whatever.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

It would be different if a white judge were doing this because whites were never enslaved by blacks in the US. Blacks were enslaved by whites and while racism is a lot less serious in the US than it was when slavery was legal, things still aren't equal yet. It's okay to admit that. As a matter of fact, the judge seeing more black kids than white kids is symptomatic of said racism, so it's relevant in several ways.
It's hardly personal if you've been doing it to a lot of people. I've not been the only person you've seen fit to attack, as was made evident by host's somewhat inappropriately delivered thoughts above. Also, this thread is clearly the latest in a string of threads that aren't actually about the topic but are actually about you and how mad you are that you think people think you're a racist. More about the conspiracy to paint you as racist:
You wrote that yourself.

Pan, people can disagree with you on racial issues without thinking you're racist. Can we discuss the video and situation in the OP without you assuming a conspiracy?

Seaver

Whites were slaves of whites, does that mean some whites will never understand what it is to be white?

Just asking.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

pan6467

So we keep reopening and reopening that wound in NEGATIVE ways instead of trying to make it better by POSITIVE means?

I see. And the radical left sees no problem with that at all. Alrighty then.

This is something perhaps a MOD should discuss with me if I am so far over the line. OR perhaps, if it bothers you so much should be addressed in IM.

But no let's put it in public where it has no right to be..... then we'll jump on him and tell him how he makes posts all about him..... that way we can avoid the real issues.

And again, no one did address the MLK quotes.... but I can show where people afterward told me to shut the fuck up.... why? Why not just respond to the OP and leave me out of it? Take the focus off the issue..... take the focus off the issue attack the person having the "wrong opinion." Take the focus off the issue. SCREW THAT.... ANSWER THE DAMNED QUESTIONS AND I WON'T HAVE TO SHOW POSTS LIKE HOST'S AND BITCH ABOUT THEM AND THEN BE ACCUSED OF TRYING TO MAKE IT ABOUT ME!!!!!!!

That is cool, I'm not a racist, but I'm going to hold people's feet to the flames over this because there is a double standard and it is extreme bullshit excuses and avoidances and let's move focuses over here that keep this shit alive.

In all these threads on race all we get is "well they were enslaved.... they have the right to feel that way.... they can get away with that because.... well they were enslaved...."

THEY in present day America have NOT been enslaved. When there is a positive role model like Colin Powell, George Foreman, Thurgood Marshall, Bill Cosby, Ken Griffey Jr. and so on thrown out..... the reply is "They are Uncle Toms".

So successful black men that don't buy into the Rev. Wrights, Al Sharptons, Louis Farrakhans of this country are "Uncle Toms", while the 70% of the boys that leave fatherless children, the boys that join the Bloods/Crips/Disciples and so on, the boys that would rather sell crack and do drugs than graduate high school and take advantage of the UNCF and scholarships, are the true epitomy of the black man. "Those are the ones that rightfully are angry and have no chances in life, because of the white man and the fact at one time PART of our country enslaved them they never had a chance to begin with."

Yet, again when proven wrong, by showing the black men and women who didn't buy into that bullshit and went out and made themselves successful... they are Uncle Toms.

Bullshit racism is bullshit racism.

This judge is a racist and abused his power..... plain and simple. Just as if a white judge had done it, a Hispanic judge had done it, a male judge had done it to females, and so on.

WRONG IS WRONG AND THERE IS NO FUCKING EXCUSE TO SAY IT'S OK. It divides, it's negative and it is far more damaging when we make excuses and allow abuses like this to continue.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ch'i

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the actions of this judge.

Each race has its own culture. These cultures are all diverse and differ from each other in varying aspects. I know from experience that black american culture is group oriented. When this judge wanted to speak to his fellow black americans it was nothing more than a one on one. That is simply their culture. If a white judge did this then, yes, it would have been strange because white culture is more fragmented and, really, just doesn't function in the same way. It all boils down to difference in social interaction among different cultures. You can't confuse this with racism.

Willravel

He's trying to close the wound. Or do you think a lower crime rate among black men would widen the gap? That was, after all, his intent. And just because black people aren't enslaved today does not mean that they are not victimized by racism often.

As for the MLK quotes, they have nothing to do with the thread. Had they been relevant to the subject at hand, people probably would have responded to them. They aren't, so they were ignored.

The bottom line: the white people asked to leave were not injured in any way. They weren't persecuted. They're fine. The judge wanted to address members of his own race. Ch'i just explained it perfectly and trust me he knows more about black culture than either you or I will ever know.

pan6467

Then instead of using his judge's bench and the PUBLICLY funded courthouse... perhaps he should be out in a church or working where this maybe acceptable.

I see no true logic in this excuse. Just more negative racial division. "The white man wouldn't understand what this judge is saying."

Bullshit.....

We don't hear of German Jews doing this shit in Germany. We don't hear of German Jews making irrational demands like we hear from Farrakhan, Sharpton, and company.

Yet, the German Jews went through a Hell far worse than slavery. And there are people who lived through that still alive and living in Germany.

Show me 1 black that lived through slavery in this country alive today.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Ch'i didn't say "a white man can't understand". He said you don't understand.

Ch'i

Court was no longer in session. You're right though; that lecture cost the state a fortune, I'm sure.

Also, I in no way whatsoever made any comment in my post concerning slavery. I read you're posts, though it seems I shouldn't expect the same courtesy in return. Slavery has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, or any issue related to this thread.


All that aside... I'll say it again, its a culture difference, not racism.

pan6467

If he had done it elsewhere and not used his "judgeship".... acceptable, in a courtroom using his power as judge to do this...... Racist, power abusing bullshit.

Really, I covered what I figured would be excuses for this judge's actions and brought up MLK quotes to show the bullshit factor:

Here's the post (with the quotes) let the following posters make the decision if they are relevant. I'm sure to those making excuse for the judge they aren't relevant because they would be proving their own bullshit excuses as bullshit excuses.

Well, again, outside of a courtroom, outside of his job ok..... inside a courtroom using his position.... WRONG. A courtroom and a judge are not supposed to know race, religion, sex, ethnic background and so on.

Again, let's take a look at his record, see how he ruled in cases.

Now if you say that it would be ok for ANY judge to single out his certain "people" and do this..... it'd still be an abuse of power in my eyes, but I wouldn't be able to call the racist bullshit excuses, and that would be fine for me.

IMHO, it's bullshit racism and an abuse of power. There is no excuse for this behavior in ANY courtroom under ANY circumstance.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ch'i

Court was no longer in session.