Glad-I-Ate-Her

Iraqis recount torture at Saddam's hands
By DANA HULL, TOM LASSETER and NATALIE POMPILIO
Knight Ridder Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq - You can find just about anything at the Baab al Sharjee market in the center of Baghdad. Air conditioners, electric fans, radios, satellite dishes. And short videos that chronicle the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein.

One video - "Saddam's Crimes and His Followers: Mukhabarat Torturing" - shows men lying on the ground as their legs are tied to a stick in the air. They writhe in pain as military officers whip the soles of their bare feet. Another shows a grenade being strapped to the chest of a blindfolded man. A few minutes later, he's blown up.

"Thousands of people have bought them," said Taha Adnan, 16, a vendor in the market.

The world long has known that Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurds and brutally repressed Shiite Muslims, has known of his secret police and torture chambers. But until his regime disintegrated in the face of a U.S. onslaught, it seldom heard the cries of his victims or their survivors.

Now they are starting to tell their stories.

Basima Hamid last saw her husband, Naser al Saadi, one morning in 1999. He left to visit his family, and when he arrived, the Iraqi Intelligence Service was waiting at the house and arrested him. His crime: studying to be a sheik. For years, Hamid wondered if he was alive. One of Naser's older brothers has been missing since 1982.

When Baghdad fell April 9, the family contacted the Committee of Free Iraqi Prisoners, a group founded by former prisoners. The organization has scoured documents retrieved from intelligence offices and has posted lists of thousands of names of those executed by the regime.

Hamid learned that her husband was lynched at 2 p.m. on Aug. 9, 2000, at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison. U.S. forces discovered 993 unmarked graves at the prison; her husband's body was in Number 860. The family found his bones and reburied them in Najaf, a city that's holy for Shiite Muslims.

"Please, find out all of Saddam's crimes and let the whole world know about the reality of Saddam," said Hamid, who's still wearing black mourning clothes and raising two young sons. "He is the evilest man that I ever saw."

Hamid would like to see Saddam captured and brought to a trial.

"They should cut out his tongue, cut off his ears, so that he feels pain," said Hamid, dark eyes flashing with anger. "Everything that he did to us should be done to him."

Naser Kasem was 29 when he got fed up with the Iraqi military and the beatings that came with service. So he deserted. The police picked him up at a checkpoint in Karbala.

He was dragged from a small, pitch-black concrete cell every two hours and taken to a torture room. There, he said, a man would crank up a small generator as another man got the wires ready. They shocked the bottoms of his feet and made him clutch the live wire with his hands. They poured molten plastic on his feet and pushed lit cigarettes into his flesh. They beat him with a stick and with an electrified rod.

Two hours later, he was taken back to his cell for two hours of sobbing, and then the police returned to give him some more. Then came two years in jail.

The other men in the room looked away, or down at the ground. Asked what he did when he finally got out of jail, Kasem shrugged. He went back into the military, he said. What else was there to do?

Abbas Fadel, a large, muscular man, has a picture of his brother Ali hanging from a nail in front of his small grocery store in southeast Baghdad. The inscription under Ali Fadel's face reads, "He was arrested by the criminal Saddam Hussein."

"I couldn't show it to people in the past because of the regime," Fadel said. "Now I hang it up to show respect."

Ali Fadel was arrested and then killed in 1983 - hanged in prison - for no apparent crime other than reading in a library.

Police found anti-Saddam graffiti on a wall near where Ali had been studying and rounded up more than 25 people who had been seen there that day. Someone had written, "Saddam is a coward. Saddam has no honor."

There was no proof that Ali was involved, but the police wrote in their report that he was a Shiite Muslim, and that, Abbas Fadel said, was enough. The family never got his body back, and is still making trips to mass graves in hopes of finding his bones.

Capt. John Morgan, a spokesman for the U.S. Army's V Corps, said it would be impossible to calculate the damage Saddam wrought to his people. The psychological effects, he said, will be felt for generations. Each new report of mass graves, or the revelation that athletes were tortured in a chamber under the Olympic stadium, turns his stomach.

"That is the kind of guy Saddam Hussein was. He took his Olympic athletes and if they didn't perform, he tortured them," Morgan said. "This one place where there was an olive branch to reach out to other nations, he tainted that."

Lt. Gen. David McKiernan, the former head of coalition troops in Baghdad, recently called Saddam Iraq's biggest weapon of mass destruction.

Hussein Abed Ali's only crimes were being a Shiite and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was 16 in 1991 when Iraqi police arrested him and 60 neighbors and accused them of participating in anti-Saddam uprisings. Held in captivity for 45 days, he was the only one who came home.

"We were terrified. We nearly died of fear," Ali said. "We were just waiting to be killed."

Ali can't forget the first time he saw a man murdered. Hours after he'd been arrested, a local Baath Party leader came to check on the prisoners and noticed that two of the men had been shot. He pulled out his own handgun.

"He said, 'How are these dogs still alive? They should have been dead a long time ago.' And he pulled out a pistol and he shot them both in the forehead. He enjoyed killing people," Ali said.

Ali saw men beaten to death with pipes. One man who dared ask, "Why are you doing this to me?" had his hands cut off before he was shot in the head. His torturer said, "This is how people are treated when they go against Saddam."

"I could see it in other people's eyes. They died of fear before the bullet or the pipe got them," Ali said. "I was 16 years old and afraid to die, but I was just waiting my turn."

Ali went days without eating, and learned not to trust prison food when a rare meal left a handful of other prisoners with fatal diarrhea. A so-called "investigation" into the prisoners' actions ended with at least one man crucified.

Ali was lucky: They let him go home.

"For every 100 people, they let one person go, to tell the people of the city what happened to the rest," he said.

Ali was arrested a second time a year later and held for more than two years but, again, managed to survive. He described the tortures during his second incarceration - the beatings with electrical cables, the day his feet were pounded with bats and his toenails were pulled out - in a low, matter-of-fact voice.

He's 29 now, an electrician and a volunteer at the cultural center in Musayeb, where the bodies from mass graves are counted and the families of missing persons come searching.

"I help them find the people who weren't so lucky like me," Ali said. "If it weren't for God, maybe my family would be looking for me now."

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

The_Dude

i dont mean to underscore the cruelty of this regime, but incidents far worse are occuring in the world today

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Sparhawk

Once again:

The ENDS do not justify the MEANS.

Lying to get an end product that turns out to have a benefit leaves the lyer(sp) tarnished. Did *anyone* here take ethics?

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Lebell

*raises hand*

Yup, I took business ethics and straight ethics.

And you're only partly right, especially if you are using a utilitarian model of ethics.

I do agree that I wish they would find WMD's as that was the major reason I supported this war.

Don't get me wrong, I might have supported it just as fervently if they pitch had been to get rid of this monster, but the fact remains that it wasn't.

All THAT being said, I'm having a hard time feeling sorry he's gone...

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Sparhawk

I also would have an easier time supporting the war if the pitch had been "we're getting rid of a tyrant". But then I'd start asking difficult questions like 'why aren't we doing more in Burma, PRK, etc etc'.

Now I really wish they'd find some trucks or something filled to the brim with toxins, so this whole argument could instantly become moot.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

The_Dude

i doubt that will ever happen

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

geep

Time is the antidote for whatever ails ya.

Conclamo Ludus

I strongly supported the war on the basis of WMD and would have most likely if it was to get rid of Hussein.

My biggest fear now is that the WMD's were in fact moved out of there long ago. They apparently aren't there now (which I'm still hoping they are) but everyone knows they were at some point. My guess is he sold them off before 9/11. This would explain why Hussein was being a prick about disarmament but was adamant about there not being any there. This would also explain why we keep finding evidence and clues that they were there at one point. I doubt they were destroyed because Hussein wouldn't have spent the resources to stockpile them only to destroy them. If this is the case then we may find the WMD's but in the worst way possible.

Its really starting to irk me that we haven't got a conclusive find. Bush needs to address this a little more openly.

__________________
Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

Dragonlich

To anyone talking about ethics; the Jews have a saying that more or less goes like this: safe one live, and you safe humanity.

No matter how much you try to discredit the reasons for the war; in fact, no matter what the reasons were; in this case, the ends DO justify the means. If you disagree, I suggest you think about the results if we were to reverse the situation; if we were to remedy the error that was this war, and were to put Saddam back in power (as he should be, legally speaking)... how happy would the Iraqi people be with that move, eh?

Talking about ethics is nice, but the real world isn't as black and white as philosophical theories make it appear.

Liquor Dealer

Amen!
What Dragonlich said!

Over and over again - Amen!

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Peetster

Saddam hasn't been found either. Are you also questioning whether he ever existed?

The_Dude

well, we know for a fact that he did. he made tapes, video's and we have sources that met him.

as for wmd's, we dont have video's, we dont have any sources that can pinpoint the location.

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

reconmike

Just to refresh your memory Dude here is a photograph that he in fact posessed chemical weapons.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Conclamo Ludus

Everyone knows they existed at one time, the question is where they went. If they aren't found in Iraq, then

1.) Were they destroyed, how and when? (Doubtful, but there would be traces left behind indicating this.)

2.) Where did they go and when? (Frightening to think about.)

There isn't a question about whether or not they existed at some point even for the UN.

__________________
Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

geep

They did indeed exist. I hope we find them. The debate using WMD's as the only justification for going into Iraq is getting a little high pitched.

The_Dude

er....when was that pic taken?

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

reconmike

Does it matter?

He had and used them, then failed to prove he destroyed them.

What I am concerned about is what Conclamo Ludus said, where are they now.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

The_Dude

it matters. what if it was taken before gulf war 1? and the allied troops/UN destroyed them afterwards?

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

WetSpot

I have to agree that is is a bit bothersome that we have not found any wmd's yet. Still, I can't help but be glad that he's gone. He had it coming, so to speak. As for the argument that such atrocities happen every day, how does this make it right? Should nothing be done anywhere if it has no direct impact on us? Where is the compassion in that? Ask these kids and their parents if they give a rotten rats bum that no wmd's have been found:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/I...344832,00.html

rainheart

I doubt it was about compassion. Read the iran suicide thread, I'm too lazy to make a reference.

Nad Adam

I think I have a picture of me pouring up a glas of milk from 12 years ago. Do you belive that I could drink from that carton today? Chemical and biological weapons degrade pretty quickly.

__________________
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

Lebell

Umm,

That totally depends on what agents you are talking about. Botulin toxin degrades over many months, but war gases, such as mustard gas and sarin are stable for years, if not decades.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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reconmike

The US still has the stuff stock piled from WWII, and it is still as dangerous as the day they made it.

But it doesnt take long for a mobile lab to whip up some bio-toxins.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Nad Adam

So, it was mustard gas that was the big threat to the US and the western world? If you worry about mustard gas being smuggled into any western country in enough quantities to do any damage you should probaly increase your bordersecurity and not invade iraq.

And with todays medical care you would probably have to make someone drink that crap for it to be fatal.

__________________
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

The_Dude

and there is no earthly way he could have moved those shitload of "tons" of materials.

at least not under the eye of the greatest intelligence agencies on earth (cia n m16?)

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Lebell

I assume you mean MI6, not m16.

Anyway, of course he could have. Take a cloudy day and a couple of semi's and there go a couple of tons of nerve agent to Syria.

Shoot the guy running the forklift and operational security remains intact.

Saddam stored his planes with the Syrians (and the Iranians who *whopse* forgot to give them back).

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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The_Dude

what about the CIA ??

really think they can get this stuff past the CIA ?

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Dragonlich

Well... there was an Iraqi nuclear scientist the other day, who explained that he had been hiding some vital parts of Saddam's pre-'91 nuclear weapon factories. They had been buried in a garden next to the scientist's house, to be recovered again when the time was right (sanctions lifted, whatever).

<a href="http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N26197212.htm">http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N26197212.htm</a>

Do you still maintain that Saddam couldn't possibly hide WMDs, even with the CIA looking?

(note: you trust the CIA to know anything at all, even when they did NOT know about the 9-11 thing until it hit them in the eye???)

The_Dude

lol, i read about that too.

he said he had some parts that could possibly used to make weap's hidden in his backyard.

i'd really like to see him dig up the parts, put it all together and make wmd's and launch 'em in 45 mts!

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Dragonlich

Well, they were essential parts of a machine that is used to create enriched weapons-grade uranium. This can be used to produce more than enough uranium to build nuclear bombs, which can then be attached to missiles, which in turn can be launched in 45 minutes.

Happy now?

The interesting bit isn't that he hid WMDs in his backyard. The interesting bit is that he was able to hide some pretty dangerous stuff related to Iraq's illegal nuclear-weapons program for <b>12 years</b> without anyone finding out. This leads to questions about the possibility of hiding other essential bits of equipment, and even the possibility of hiding tons of chemical weapons.

And I for one would NOT like to see him build nukes and launch them.

clsintampa

OK...so now they are free from him...what do we get in return...They shoot at us everyday.

Oh yea...and the oil.

What a waste, we need to mind out own biz.

__________________
The One and Only.

Nad Adam

No wonder that Sadam couldn't prove he destroyed all that WMD when his scientists buried it in their own back yard.

Just another way of over-enterpeting things.

__________________
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

The_Dude

there is no way you can hide all the stuff needed in one person's backyard.

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

reconmike

How about 5 scientist's backyards?

There Plenty of backyards in a country the size of texas.

It just proves that Hussien had his people bury things he was trying to hide.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Glad-I-Ate-Her

There are many valid points being made here but what we all should be really worried about is "WHERE ARE THE WMD'S NOW AND IN WHOSE HANDS?!!"


Glad

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

Dragonlich

(sarcasm mode)
Why worry? The fact that the US hasn't found them means there weren't any WMD's, remember???
(/sarcasm mode)

And why would we talk about WMDs anyway - this is a thread about Iraqis that have been tortured by Saddam.

Glad-I-Ate-Her

Dragonlich,
You are absolutely right about the posts supposed theme. Sorry, I went off on a tangent there!

Glad

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!