Rev Jeremiah Wright - or WRONG? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Intense1 · 03-15-2008, 12:16 AM

I've searched for anything here on TFP about the racist rantings of the good Reverend - Spiritual advisor of Senator Barack Obama (as he described) - but alas, I have found none.

So I decided to start a thread dedicated to it.

Tell me something: should someone with this type of "spiritual advisor" - who listened to the counsel of and prayed with this "reverend" every step of they way - be the man who sits in the Oval office?

I say no, unequivocally.

ottopilot · 03-15-2008, 05:12 AM

Thanks for bringing this up. It has hit a nerve and I think many are reluctant to address.

By his own consistent and volatile rhetoric, Jeremiah Wright has proven himself to be nothing less than an unapologetic racist. For Obama to attend his church for twenty years, to have a close friendship with him, be married by him, have his children baptized by him, claim his example to be the inspiration for a book and much of his life philosophy, and to serve as an adviser to his presidential campaign, I think it's highly reasonable to consider who the real Obama is. Are Obama's core beliefs actually closer to that of Rev. Wright's?

This is the only response Obama gave on TV yesterday: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256078,00.html#
His performance was less than strong, let alone presidential.

Rev. Wright has left the Obama campaign. This was the right move, but looks highly suspect and should have happened long ago when this was first brought up in 2007. I believe this will be a serious (but temporary) setback for the Obama campaign.

jewels · 03-15-2008, 05:20 AM

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Thanks for bringing this up. It has hit a nerve and I think many are reluctant to address.

By his own consistent and volatile rhetoric, Jeremiah Wright has proven himself to be nothing less than an unapologetic racist. For Obama to attend his church for twenty years, to have a close friendship with him, be married by him, have his children baptized by him, claim his example to be the inspiration for a book and much of his life philosophy, and to serve as an adviser to his presidential campaign, I think it's highly reasonable to consider who the real Obama is. Are Obama's core beliefs actually closer to that of Rev. Wright's?

This is the only response Obama gave on TV yesterday: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256078,00.html#
His performance was less than strong, let alone presidential.

Rev. Wright has left the Obama campaign. This was the right move, but looks highly suspect and should have happened long ago when this was first brought up in 2007. I believe this will be a serious (but temporary) setback for the Obama campaign.

I believe it's going to destroy his race, but when I brought this up a couple weeks ago I was told it was so last years news, not an issue and I was racist for being upset over it.

ottopilot · 03-15-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I believe it's going to destroy his race, but when I brought this up a couple weeks ago I was told it was so last years news, not an issue and I was racist for being upset over it.

I still think he will win for the Democrats. He will get pummeled for this in the general election.

I followed the other thread and was very disappointed at how eager some were to paint you as racist. Unlike in Rev. Wright's case, the term racist has become the easy cheap shot for shutting down opposition. There is a place for plain speech when addressing race. IMO Geraldine Ferraro was bludgeoned by the real racists labeling her as one ... that's the trick isn't it?

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 06:49 AM

How many times does Obama have to disavow and disassociate himself from Wright's comments to appease those who are not likely to vote for him anyway?

One question that was never answered in the other theard that dealt with this? Why doesnt McCain (and any past Republican candidate of the last 20+ years) get the same scrutiny for his (their) actively seeking the endorsement of religious leaders like Pat Roberston and John Hagee who make equally bigoted or offensive remarks?

djtestudo · 03-15-2008, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

How many times does Obama have to disavow and disassociate himself from Wright's comments to appease those who are not likely to vote for him anyway?

One question that was never answered in the other theard that dealt with this? Why doesnt McCain (and any past Republican candidate of the last 20+ years) get the same scrutiny for his (their) actively seeking the endorsement of religious leaders like Pat Roberston and John Hagee who make equally bigoted or offensive remarks?

Because the people who care aren't likely to vote for him anyway

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

I still think he will win for the Democrats. He will get pummeled for this in the general election.

I followed the other thread and was very disappointed at how eager some were to paint you as racist. Unlike in Rev. Wright's case, the term racist has become the easy cheap shot for shutting down opposition. There is a place for plain speech when addressing race. IMO Geraldine Ferraro was bludgeoned by the real racists labeling her as one ... that's the trick isn't it?

Exactly, if the can dub you a racist then they expect no one will listen to you.

See, the reason it bothers me being called one, is that being labeled as one could kill me in the profession I am in.

That's why I take great offense to it. There are pros out there that mention something, like this, and will be tarred and feathered and they weren't the racist ones... just the ones that got dubbed the name.

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 06:56 AM

pan...I guess you took nothing to heart from the last discussion....and you still have not identified the members who called you a racist.

SO please...,enough with the martyr act and give it a rest.

The only tangentially related issue that is worthy of further discussion, IMO, is why much of American hold religious leaders to double standards.

The moral outrage at statements by the likes of Wright, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackon, Al Sharpton and the dealthly silence at remarks by Pat Robertson, John Hagee, etc.

Seaver · 03-15-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

The moral outrage at statements by the likes of Wright, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackon, Al Sharpton and the dealthly silence at remarks by Pat Robertson, John Hagee, etc.

Serious? You think there is silence when those people talk? Anyways, that's besides the point.

Seeking an endorsement for 2 months is MUCH different in my mind than the close relationship Obama has with his pastor. This corrolation would have more weight if McCain had gone to Robertson's house every week for 20 years, gotten married in his garden, and made him his kid's godfather.

Unfortunately for you, this is not even close to the truth. 8 years ago I think he called Robertson one of the greatest threats to America. He's only no longer attacking Robertson to get the nomination.

So how are these similar? Other than you would have voted for Obama regardless?

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

How many times does Obama have to disavow and disassociate himself from Wright's comments to appease those who are not likely to vote for him anyway?

One question that was never answered in the other theard that dealt with this? Why doesnt McCain (and any past Republican candidate of the last 20+ years) get the same scrutiny for his (their) actively seeking the endorsement of religious leaders like Pat Roberston and John Hagee who make equally bigoted or offensive remarks?

Because this isn't about McCain, this is about Obama.

You want to start a thread on McCain and his endorsers then go ahead. But this is about Obama.

McCain doesn't say Robertson or Hagee are his spiritual mentors, he doesn't have them sitting on some religious board in his campaign, he doesn't say he turns to them for his spiritual guidance. Neither of them has gone on a trip to Libya in the 80's with one of the biggest, truest of RACISTS Louis Farrakhan as did Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

It's not so much Obama that bothers me over all this. It's the fact that one cannot express how they truly feel about this without being dubbed, implicated as, referred to as a racist and the issue is expected to drop because "only a racist would bring it up.... there's no substance to it except it shows you are a racist..... etc."

Another one of my favorites is "well, you are passionate about this and because of that you are a racist." I'm passionate about it because this is the fucking presidency we are talking about, the leader of our country and I have every right to question his moral character, his choice of spiritual mentor and the church he goes to without having to be attacked.

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 07:18 AM

Seaver and pan....so why isnt Obama's response again yesterday enough:

Quote:

The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He's drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context.

As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me repeat what I've said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country.

With Rev. Wright's retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.

What more do you think he should do to appease those who are disinclined to vote for him anyway?

Seaver...you would rather vote for a hypocrite like McCain who eight years ago called guys like Robertson and Hagee "agents of hate" but now seeks their endiorsement? It that a person of better character?

And I am not surprised you dont want to discuss the double standards.

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

pan...I guess you took nothing to heart from the last discussion....and you still have not identified the members who called you a racist.

SO please...,enough with the martyr act and give it a rest.

I have as much right to speak as you do, don't like what I say, there's always ignore, I've used it on several UsTwo was there for 2 years with me.

How come others have seen me called racist but you haven't?

I do not single you out, I do not even mention your name.... so why are you hounding me?

This truly reminds me of the "How dare you question Bush, are you not a true patriot" hatespeak of the GOP not too long ago.

I blindly follow no man/woman, and I will question who I want about what I want when it comes to that person being the leader/figurehead of my country.

The Dems. better come up with more than "racist" as an answer or come Nov. the party will lose in epic proportions, and if the party cannot win this Nov. then the party may as well give it up, cause this election is handed to us on a silver platter and we are still fucking it up and wanting to lose.

roachboy · 03-15-2008, 07:26 AM

pan: there are already 2 threads taken up with your complaining about being labeled "racist" for **the way** in which you brought this topic up.

get over yourself.

i think dc's questions are central at this point: how about addressing them?

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 07:26 AM

pan...just as you have a right to speak here on anything within the rules....so do I.

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Seaver and pan....so why isnt Obama's response again yesterday enough:

What more do you think he should do to appease those who are disinclined to vote for him anyway?

Seaver...you would rather vote for a hypocrite like McCain who eight years ago called guys like Robertson and Hagee "agents of hate" but now seek their endiorsement?

And I am not surprised you dont want to discuss the double standards.

Because for 20+ years he knew how hateful and racist this man is. He knew this man traveled to Libya with Farrakhan. He knew the radical hatespeak this man gave.... and yet he sought this man out. Got married in this man's garden, went to this man's house at least once a week for 20 years, had this man as Godfather of his kids and ONLY when it has begun to affect his campaign has he done anything about it.

If for 20 years I had as my guru and godfather of my children the Rev. Falwell/Robertson/Hagee, or George W or Cheney and I then distanced myself from them only at a time when I was running for office and the relationship was starting to bog me down...... I would be considered a hypocrite. You would come after me worse for dumping them at the last minute.

If Obama is soooooo shocked and morally hurt by what Wright has said, then why has it taken this to become an issue hurting his campaign for him to distance himself from Wright?

It's bullshit.

What's even worse is attacking people who this is an issue to.

Just as those that questioned my patriotism for my speaking out against Bush... I say to you your blind loyalty and attacks on my beliefs and how I feel about this issue are wrong and more apt to inspire me to rail against the man than to support him.

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Because for 20+ years he knew how hateful and racist this man is. He knew this man traveled to Libya with Farrakhan. He knew the radical hatespeak this man gave.... and yet he sought this man out. Got married in this man's garden, went to this man's house at least once a week for 20 years, had this man as Godfather of his kids and ONLY when it has begun to affect his campaign has he done anything about it.

For 20+ years, this man (Wright) has also been highly respected among most clergyman in Chicago and within the predominantly white United Church of Christ....and recognized for the vast amount of work and commitment his church has given to the community.

You want to condemn Obama for Wright's comments and ignore the broader words and actions of the pastor..thats fine.

I look at the whole person before making judgement.

matthew330 · 03-15-2008, 07:42 AM

Obama spent 20 years in the company of someone who's immediate reaction to 9/11 was.....exactly what you saw above - no point in quoting the whole thing. If you can't understand why, after watching that video that this:

"I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another"

...is more than likely a bold faced lie from someone you want to be president, and you really think there's something wrong with those who would like to question this matter a little further, you're frankly hopeless.

You're immediate response to this DC, is about someone's (not entirely clear who) reaction to what Pat Robertson said (not entirely clear what) at some point in time (not entirely clear when). There's only one double standard that should be addressed here and that's the one your actively participating in.

I'd also like to point out that this historically feigned disgust at the any suggestion that a democrat might be unpatriotic is no longer necessary. This reverend is the 20 year friend of what will very likely be their presidential nominee. I'm not saying Obama is or isn't God Damning America, but certainly you can see why making that connection is not just "right wing fear mongering".

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 07:47 AM

Mathew..I wont count you as an Obama vote

matthew330 · 03-15-2008, 07:49 AM

doubtful

Ustwo · 03-15-2008, 07:52 AM

Since I've been avoiding the political talk stuff I only heard about this guy a couple of days ago, and until reading this thread I didn't know just how deep Obama was with this guy.

Can you imagine the outrage if McCain's pastor was this guys white equivalent? The 30 link post missives by host? The name calling by the left posse?

All I can say to this is.......

This will be the first REAL test of the Obama spin machine. I heard he is using the 'we all have a crazy old uncle type' defense.

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 07:56 AM

Sorry, doesn't work for me. The whole 80's/Libya/Farrakhan thing and then to give Farrakhan an award does it for me, as far as Wright goes. As far as Obama goes, it bothers me his supporters and himself instead of addressing issues tend to say these questions are racist and how dare you attack this man and so on....

It also bothers me at the last minute Obama decides to distance himself, but the last 20 years he's been right there.

Sorry, if I'm a racist because I have questions and expect better answers than "racist.... well show me where someone called you racist (which does nothing but deflect the attention off the topic at hand.... which is not whether or not I'm a racist it's about why Obama didn't distance himself from Wright sooner.... again he did so only when it started hurting his campaign and why is it that anyone who asks has their character questioned.

I'm not the one running for office. I don't have to answer any questions because this is not my candidate. But the man running for office DOES need to answer the questions, his supporters DO need to answer the questions and not attack those asking or those supporters and that man will find the issue growing in strength and more issues come out from it and it will cost the man the election.

And to think not long ago I was told this wasn't an issue. Then all of a sudden it's an issue and the answers are still the same, attack attack attack... distance distance distance..... attack attack attack.

Geraldine Ferrero a racist???????? Yet Wright isn't? Wow....... Nov is going to be fun for the GOP.

SirSeymour · 03-15-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

How many times does Obama have to disavow and disassociate himself from Wright's comments to appease those who are not likely to vote for him anyway?

A complete disavowal of the man, not just his comments, would go a lot further. Nothing short of that would work if this were a white candidate and a white minister and even then I don't think the black community would back off.

It is time for everyone in this country to wake up and realize that racism is NOT a one way street.

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSeymour

A complete disavowal of the man, not just his comments, would go a lot further. Nothing short of that would work if this were a white candidate and a white minister and even then I don't think the black community would back off.

It is time for everyone in this country to wake up and realize that racism is NOT a one way street.

Someone who gets it........... Amen brother.

This has never had more meaning to me than it does now:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHN LENNON

Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it.

dc_dux · 03-15-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSeymour

A complete disavowal of the man, not just his comments, would go a lot further. Nothing short of that would work if this were a white candidate and a white minister and even then I don't think the black community would back off.

Sir...I would have less respect for Obama if he completely disavowed the man based solely on his words and at the exclusion of the 20+ years of service and commitment to the minority community in Chicago.

Just as I have loss respect for McCain (who I would not have voted for any way because of policy positions) for his hypocrisy regarding Robertson, Hagee, et al....calling them "agents of hate" in 2000 when trying to appear tolerant to the less self-righteous side of the GOP..then actively seeking their endorsements eight years later to secure the conservative GOP base.

SirSeymour · 03-15-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Sir...I would have less respect for Obama if he completely disavowed the man based solely on his words and at the exclusion of the 20+ years of service and commitment to the minority community in Chicago.

Call me Seymour...Sir is so formal, don't you think?

Maybe he does have 20+ years of service to the minority community (which I respect, btw) but that does not change the racist spewings of his recent past. I cannot help but wonder if the recent past is more the norm and we are just not hearing about it because there were no cameras there. This is only speculation of course but the guy had to know there were cameras there and that he would be recorded. It is customary to tone the rhetoric down a bit, not dial it up, in those cases. At best his words show very poor judgment on his part, at worst he is the black version of a white supremacists.

I stand by my statement that the black community would be up in arms over this and hard to win over at this point no matter what measures were taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Just as I have loss respect for McCain (who I would not have voted for any way because of policy positions) for his hypocrisy regarding Robertson, Hagee, et al....calling them "agents of hate" in 2000 when trying to appear tolerant to the less self-righteous side of the GOP..then actively seeking their endorsements eight years later to secure the conservative GOP base.

This is not a thread about McCain but I will say I am no happier with some of his actions in this regard then Obama.

Willravel · 03-15-2008, 09:16 AM

This thread is a mess.

For me this is simple: one of my own greatest personal heros is RFK. He was friggin awesome in a big way and helps to inspire me. Did you know that RFK was directly involved in McCarthy's insane Communist investigations? Not his proudest moment. Does that mean I hate communists? Obviously not.

Ustwo · 03-15-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Geraldine Ferrero a racist???????? Yet Wright isn't? Wow....... Nov is going to be fun for the GOP.

While I think Obama will survive it, the press is going to give him EVERY opportunity to explain this one and spin it his way, it is going to be very fun.

Its nice to rub some noses in their own hypocrisy now and then.

SirSeymour · 03-15-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

This thread is a mess.

For me this is simple: one of my own greatest personal heros is RFK. He was friggin awesome in a big way and helps to inspire me. Did you know that RFK was directly involved in McCarthy's insane Communist investigations? Not his proudest moment. Does that mean I hate communists? Obviously not.

Will, you ARE a communist.

Willravel · 03-15-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSeymour

Will, you ARE a communist.

Exactomundo! I see RFK as a champion of civil rights, something I believe in wholeheartedly, but I choose not to follow his actions regarding communism because I disagree with them.

silent_jay · 03-15-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I believe it's going to destroy his race, but when I brought this up a couple weeks ago I was told it was so last years news, not an issue and I was racist for being upset over it.

Look at me, someone called me a racist, look at me everybody, awww come on look at me, I was called racist, LOOK AT ME DAMNIT I WAS CALLED A RACIST.

But seriously pan, drag it back to the other 2 threads that are about you and at least leave one alone. You know for a guy who says 'this isn't about me' you sure have no problem making every thread that mentions race about you and what you may or may not have been called.

I always enjoy McCain's 'spiritual advisor', guess he can get away with it all:

Quote:

Claims that Hurricane Katrina was "the Judgement of God against New Orleans"

On the September 18, 2006, edition of National Public Radio's Fresh Air, Hagee stated that Hurricane Katrina was an act of God, punishing New Orleans for "a level of sin that was offensive to God". He specifically referred to a "homosexual parade" that was held on the date the hurricane struck and that this was proof "of the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans" [1] , even though the Southern Decadence parade was scheduled for the following week and the primary gay neighborhoods, the French Quarter and the Marigny, were spared the flooding and destruction. Another reason for God's wrath, Hagee claims, was the Bush administration's pressure on Israel to abandon settlements and the land associated with them. Therefore, God took American land in a tit for tat exchange during Hurricane Katrina.

Yeah he seems normal.

Quote:

Claims that Islamic Qur'an contains a "mandate to kill Christians and Jews"

During the same September 18, 2006, edition of National Public Radio's Fresh Air, Hagee also discussed Islam, stating that "those who live by the Qur'an have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews" adding, "it teaches that very clearly". He then proceeded to characterize the military threat posed by those who follow Islamic scripture: "There are 1.3 billion people who follow the Islamic faith, so if you're saying there's only 15 percent that want to come to America or invade Israel to crush it, you're only talking about 200 million people. That's far more than Hitler and Japan and Italy and all of the axis powers in World War II had under arms."

Such a lovely man, I wonder what he will say next:

What does the good Rev have to say about Jews:

Quote:

Accusations of Antisemitism

Despite his claims that he is an opponent of antisemitism, Hagee has been accused of antisemitism, blaming the Jews for their own persecution by asserting that it was the "disobedience" of Jews that have caused their persecution throughout history and even the holocaust[21][22]:

It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day... Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.... it rises from the judgment of God upon his rebellious chosen people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagee

"Christians don't steal or lie, they don't get divorced or have abortions. If the Ten Commandments were followed by everyone we would be able to fire half the police force and in six months the prisons would be all half empty."

What the fuck world is this guy living in? Yeah Christians don't get divorced and I'm the fuckin Pope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagee

"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee

Yep second time I posted this, possibly third, I suppose pan will just say he'll be up in arms just as he is about Obama, but he's ignored it for two other threads, don't see why this one should be any different. I love wasting my time posting.

aceventura3 · 03-15-2008, 10:48 AM

Unless a person has lived through "Jim Crow" the way many Black Americans in the Reverend's generation has, you should give the Reverend an opportunity to vent.

This is a non-issue. I understand the mental midget, Sean Hannity from Fox making an issue of this, but I am surprised by others who are.

pan6467 · 03-15-2008, 11:13 AM

Yes, if you make my concerns about me by calling me a racist and/or minimizing them or putting me on the defense.... I will be pissed and I will start bringing it up every chance I can to remind you that you are not addressing the issues but using attacks to try to silence the questions.

All the above shows me is that Hagee is a white ultra christianic Wright.... racism and bigotry go both ways.

But McCain doesn't seek Hagee as his "spiritual mentor". I can prove many times over where Obama has said that Wright was his.

Seeking one's political support is not the same as going to the church, going to his house once a week, marrying in his garden, naming him godfather to your children and not saying anything about his hatespeak UNTIL it looks like it may cost you votes.

So don't give me lectures how McCain's case is the same because......um it's not even close in my eyes.

You want to address the issue and leave me out of it? Let's do it. But so far it's just personal attacks, it's "look at what McCain does...." and no true responses over why didn't Obama stand up against Wright in 01 when Wright was going off? Why would Obama want to go to a church and call the leader his spiritual mentor, AFTER this man went to Libya with Farrakhan in the 80's (when we weren't to friendly and Farrakhan would come back and talk about how great things were planned with Khaddafi....).

Obama waited too late for me. I have gone to churches and been associated with people who were true racists and bigots and once I saw what they were teaching I left and distanced myself. I immediately disassociated myself.

Obama sits there for 20 years and does nothing UNTIL it looks like he may lose votes? Then and only then does he say.... um I don't approve of any of this.

So in 3 years after people in his cabinet fuck something up and his reelection looks doubtful will he stand up and say..... I don't approve of any of this.

Sorry. But I need more convincing to vote for this man.

I need someone with a bit of a backbone.

(I'm sure the response will only talk about how McCain does and did and says and blah blah blah..... ok so I vote for the lesser of 2 evils.... McCain he still has proven more backbone than Obama. I still know more about McCain than I do about Obama and I have never really been much of a McCain fan.)

Wow.... I truly never thought 2 years ago I'd be saying this but..... given the choices I like Hilary, she is closest to my stands and I think she'd lead better than either of the other 2.

I did like Obama somewhat until all the "ask that question you're a racist.." "Don't go there" and so on tactics. Makes me wonder what else he is covering up

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Unless a person has lived through "Jim Crow" the way many Black Americans in the Reverend's generation has, you should give the Reverend an opportunity to vent.

This is a non-issue. I understand the mental midget, Sean Hannity from Fox making an issue of this, but I am surprised by others who are.

I think it's the responses by his followers, the implications of racism, the flat out calls of racism, etc.

It is an issue tho.

Venting is one thing, going to Libya in the 80's with Farrakhan is something entirely different. And you should know that.

Willravel · 03-15-2008, 11:21 AM

Pan, can you drop the victim act please? You keep bringing this up over and over and over. Let it die. The dead horse is kicked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I was racist for being upset over it.

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Originally Posted by pan6467

Exactly, if the can dub you a racist then they expect no one will listen to you.

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Originally Posted by pan6467

How come others have seen me called racist but you haven't?

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Originally Posted by pan6467

Sorry, if I'm a racist because I have questions and expect better answers than "racist...

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Originally Posted by pan6467

Yes, if you make my concerns about me by calling me a racist and/or minimizing them or putting me on the defense....

silent_jay · 03-15-2008, 11:28 AM

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Originally Posted by pan6467

Sorry. But I need more convincing to vote for this man.

Really? Did you not say a week or so ago you'd most likely vote for him anyways? I'll find the post if you really need the proof. Even with all the bitching you've done about him in the past week or more.
Found said post

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Originally Posted by pan

BTW, yes, I will probably vote for Obama in Nov. because while I do have fears (such as how fast he has risen, some of his stances on the issues) he is still better than McCain (or Bush lite).

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Originally Posted by pan

But so far it's just personal attacks

Again with the personal attacks, if it's a personal attack fuckin report it, if you don't want to report it, then too bad. I'm getting sick of you making every thread about you by crying "they called me a racist waaaaaaaaaaa"

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So don't give me lectures how McCain's case is the same because......um it's not even close in my eyes.

Who was lecturing you? I posted a comment, guess your definition of lecture is as wrong as your definition of personal attack. Key words there in bold, just because you don't think it's the same doesn't make it so.

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I think it's the responses by his followers, the implications of racism, the flat out calls of racism, etc.

And again it's all about you and whether you were or weren't called a racist, jesus you enjoy things being about you for a guy who constantly says "this isn't about me"

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Venting is one thing, going to Libya in the 80's with Farrakhan is something entirely different. And you should know that.

Venting? You call what Hagee did venting?

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Originally Posted by pan

(I'm sure the response will only talk about how McCain does and did and says and blah blah blah..... ok so I vote for the lesser of 2 evils.... McCain he still has proven more backbone than Obama. I still know more about McCain than I do about Obama and I have never really been much of a McCain fan.)

But, but, I though McCain was Bushlite?

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he is still better than McCain (or Bush lite)

By your own words that's what you called him. You're a walking contradiction on this one pan, seriously, you're really not too sure what's going on. Maybe you should learn more about Obama then, possibly before you developed this hard on for the man and his church.

mixedmedia · 03-15-2008, 11:56 AM

<a href="http://www.barackobama.com/"><img src="http://www.barackobama.com/images/widgets/Obama08_Badge2sm.jpg" border="0" alt="Barack Obama Logo" /></a>

Every wingnut accusation about this man just makes me more convinced my vote is in the right place. Thank you for your continued service to our country.

silent_jay · 03-15-2008, 12:01 PM

I wish Canadian politics was this much fun, the best we get is the Tory's attempting to bribe a dying MP, then there's the shitty Dion, what a train wreck he is.

But this talking about Obama is rather enjoyable, and if I was an American I'd give the man my vote.

Willravel · 03-15-2008, 12:05 PM

You get decent health care and low crime rates. Be happy.

silent_jay · 03-15-2008, 12:07 PM

Great weed too, don't forget that. I am will, wouldn't trade being Canadian for anything, now if we can just solve this Harper dilemma here we'd be rocking.

Seaver · 03-15-2008, 12:14 PM

Lets try the contrast here.

Pretend McCain had attended a pastor's service for 20+ years. He got married by said pastor, had his children baptized by said pastor. For 20 years this pastor actively sought to return segregation. He awarded people who advanced white supremecy, and made no secret of it. Upon running for president he simply shrugged his shoulders and said he doesn't agree with what said pastor would say.

Would you have the same opinion as you hold with Obama?

HIP HIP HYPOCRISY!

03-15-2008, 12:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
Intense1 Crazy Location: Music City burbs	Rev Jeremiah Wright - or WRONG? I've searched for anything here on TFP about the racist rantings of the good Reverend - Spiritual advisor of Senator Barack Obama (as he described) - but alas, I have found none. So I decided to start a thread dedicated to it. Tell me something: should someone with this type of "spiritual advisor" - who listened to the counsel of and prayed with this "reverend" every step of they way - be the man who sits in the Oval office? I say no, unequivocally. __________________ (none yet, still thinkin') Last edited by Cynthetiq; 03-15-2008 at 01:12 PM.. Reason: embedded video

03-15-2008, 05:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	Thanks for bringing this up. It has hit a nerve and I think many are reluctant to address. By his own consistent and volatile rhetoric, Jeremiah Wright has proven himself to be nothing less than an unapologetic racist. For Obama to attend his church for twenty years, to have a close friendship with him, be married by him, have his children baptized by him, claim his example to be the inspiration for a book and much of his life philosophy, and to serve as an adviser to his presidential campaign, I think it's highly reasonable to consider who the real Obama is. Are Obama's core beliefs actually closer to that of Rev. Wright's? This is the only response Obama gave on TV yesterday: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256078,00.html# His performance was less than strong, let alone presidential. Rev. Wright has left the Obama campaign. This was the right move, but looks highly suspect and should have happened long ago when this was first brought up in 2007. I believe this will be a serious (but temporary) setback for the Obama campaign. __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo Last edited by ottopilot; 03-15-2008 at 05:28 AM..

03-15-2008, 05:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	.. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

03-15-2008, 06:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	How many times does Obama have to disavow and disassociate himself from Wright's comments to appease those who are not likely to vote for him anyway? One question that was never answered in the other theard that dealt with this? Why doesnt McCain (and any past Republican candidate of the last 20+ years) get the same scrutiny for his (their) actively seeking the endorsement of religious leaders like Pat Roberston and John Hagee who make equally bigoted or offensive remarks? __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

03-15-2008, 06:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	pan...I guess you took nothing to heart from the last discussion....and you still have not identified the members who called you a racist. SO please...,enough with the martyr act and give it a rest. The only tangentially related issue that is worthy of further discussion, IMO, is why much of American hold religious leaders to double standards. The moral outrage at statements by the likes of Wright, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackon, Al Sharpton and the dealthly silence at remarks by Pat Robertson, John Hagee, etc. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 03-15-2008 at 07:04 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-15-2008, 07:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	pan: there are already 2 threads taken up with your complaining about being labeled "racist" for the way in which you brought this topic up. get over yourself. i think dc's questions are central at this point: how about addressing them? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-15-2008, 07:26 AM	#15 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	pan...just as you have a right to speak here on anything within the rules....so do I. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

03-15-2008, 07:42 AM	#18 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Obama spent 20 years in the company of someone who's immediate reaction to 9/11 was.....exactly what you saw above - no point in quoting the whole thing. If you can't understand why, after watching that video that this: "I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another" ...is more than likely a bold faced lie from someone you want to be president, and you really think there's something wrong with those who would like to question this matter a little further, you're frankly hopeless. You're immediate response to this DC, is about someone's (not entirely clear who) reaction to what Pat Robertson said (not entirely clear what) at some point in time (not entirely clear when). There's only one double standard that should be addressed here and that's the one your actively participating in. I'd also like to point out that this historically feigned disgust at the any suggestion that a democrat might be unpatriotic is no longer necessary. This reverend is the 20 year friend of what will very likely be their presidential nominee. I'm not saying Obama is or isn't God Damning America, but certainly you can see why making that connection is not just "right wing fear mongering".

03-15-2008, 07:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Mathew..I wont count you as an Obama vote __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

03-15-2008, 07:49 AM	#20 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	doubtful

03-15-2008, 07:52 AM	#21 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Since I've been avoiding the political talk stuff I only heard about this guy a couple of days ago, and until reading this thread I didn't know just how deep Obama was with this guy. Can you imagine the outrage if McCain's pastor was this guys white equivalent? The 30 link post missives by host? The name calling by the left posse? All I can say to this is....... This will be the first REAL test of the Obama spin machine. I heard he is using the 'we all have a crazy old uncle type' defense. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-15-2008, 07:56 AM	#22 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Sorry, doesn't work for me. The whole 80's/Libya/Farrakhan thing and then to give Farrakhan an award does it for me, as far as Wright goes. As far as Obama goes, it bothers me his supporters and himself instead of addressing issues tend to say these questions are racist and how dare you attack this man and so on.... It also bothers me at the last minute Obama decides to distance himself, but the last 20 years he's been right there. Sorry, if I'm a racist because I have questions and expect better answers than "racist.... well show me where someone called you racist (which does nothing but deflect the attention off the topic at hand.... which is not whether or not I'm a racist it's about why Obama didn't distance himself from Wright sooner.... again he did so only when it started hurting his campaign and why is it that anyone who asks has their character questioned. I'm not the one running for office. I don't have to answer any questions because this is not my candidate. But the man running for office DOES need to answer the questions, his supporters DO need to answer the questions and not attack those asking or those supporters and that man will find the issue growing in strength and more issues come out from it and it will cost the man the election. And to think not long ago I was told this wasn't an issue. Then all of a sudden it's an issue and the answers are still the same, attack attack attack... distance distance distance..... attack attack attack. Geraldine Ferrero a racist???????? Yet Wright isn't? Wow....... Nov is going to be fun for the GOP. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

03-15-2008, 09:16 AM	#27 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This thread is a mess. For me this is simple: one of my own greatest personal heros is RFK. He was friggin awesome in a big way and helps to inspire me. Did you know that RFK was directly involved in McCarthy's insane Communist investigations? Not his proudest moment. Does that mean I hate communists? Obviously not.

03-15-2008, 10:48 AM	#32 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	Unless a person has lived through "Jim Crow" the way many Black Americans in the Reverend's generation has, you should give the Reverend an opportunity to vent. This is a non-issue. I understand the mental midget, Sean Hannity from Fox making an issue of this, but I am surprised by others who are. __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

03-15-2008, 11:56 AM	#36 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	<a href="http://www.barackobama.com/"><img src="http://www.barackobama.com/images/widgets/Obama08_Badge2sm.jpg" border="0" alt="Barack Obama Logo" /></a> Every wingnut accusation about this man just makes me more convinced my vote is in the right place. Thank you for your continued service to our country. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-15-2008, 12:01 PM	#37 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I wish Canadian politics was this much fun, the best we get is the Tory's attempting to bribe a dying MP, then there's the shitty Dion, what a train wreck he is. But this talking about Obama is rather enjoyable, and if I was an American I'd give the man my vote. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-15-2008, 12:05 PM	#38 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You get decent health care and low crime rates. Be happy.

03-15-2008, 12:07 PM	#39 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Great weed too, don't forget that. I am will, wouldn't trade being Canadian for anything, now if we can just solve this Harper dilemma here we'd be rocking. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-15-2008, 12:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Lets try the contrast here. Pretend McCain had attended a pastor's service for 20+ years. He got married by said pastor, had his children baptized by said pastor. For 20 years this pastor actively sought to return segregation. He awarded people who advanced white supremecy, and made no secret of it. Upon running for president he simply shrugged his shoulders and said he doesn't agree with what said pastor would say. Would you have the same opinion as you hold with Obama? HIP HIP HYPOCRISY! __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas