Willravel

He's under no LEGAL obligation, but if he want's people to be able to understand his points so they can agree or disagree he sure as hell is. And yes, when you stand shoulder to shoulder with organizations like the Minutemen, you're going to be called a racist unless you provide reasoning separate from theirs.
So it's okay for you to strawman and completely miss me posting this:
Got it.

No, what I'm saying is that they do. It's a reality. I'm not excusing it, but there you have it. For example: don't drink the water in Mexico. I'm not excusing their lack of water treatment infrastructure, but it's simply a reality.

silent_jay

Funny thing, he says "There is no way in hell I am voting for a man.....", then two pages later, he says this
Not too sure what's going on if you ask me, I hate him, well he's better than McCain so I'll vote for him.

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SirSeymour

So what I read this to say is that unless he provides more motive for using the term "illegal" than than it is just against the law, he is at fault for people considering him racist. Is that true?

I did not miss this. You have made it very clear that you personally do not believe him racist while still defending those who may find him so.

By the mere fact that you have told Pan he is inviting it by not explaining his motivation you are defending those who call him racist. Your argument seems to be that by doing nothing to head off a assumptive accusation before it is made he is to blame for it. That is like blaming the woman who choses to wear a short skirt and low cut top for getting raped.

Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.

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SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
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dc_dux

Sir.....it is a common practice here that when you pose a question in the OP, asking for opinions of others:
...that you give your own opinion first. Still waiting on clarification or explanation from pan on his opinion.

Further, when the same poster decries labeling and a defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere:
...it is not unreasonable to ask that poster to explain or clarify his own labeling, and what some might characterize as "defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere" (his Obama church characterization, not the issue of ILLEGALS)

And I dont think Pan is a racist either but I would like an explanation for his double standards.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Read my posts more carefully. I never faulted Pan for anything except being vague. People take responsibility for their own perceptions.
He asked why, and I answered. There's no defense whatsoever, simply explanation.

SirSeymour

dc,

I understand and I agree. My point is that while Pan may not have followed "best practices" for something like this he did not ask to have assumptions laid on him either. It is rather like going jogging alone after dark in a city park where there are few people around. It is not the smartest thing to do but if you are attacked you are still the victim and attacker is still the criminal.

Should Pan have provided more insight into his opinion? Probably. Did his lack of doing so justify being labeled a racist? Not in my opinion.

That is all I am saying.

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Jinn

That's just it. Labels are justified individually. I can label someone an asshole that others label "kind-hearted." I justify my label differently. For some people, mis-using the wrong word or using a certain tone is enough to label you racist. While it might not "justify" it in your opinion, it does in theirs.

So if you truly object to being labeled something, you either ignore the person labeling you or you work to determine WHY they arrived at that label and avoid those "why" behaviors. As I indicated to pan in beginning of this thread, I think it has to do with his choice of words and his defensive attitude. He can either ignore it, and he can work to avoid it, if being called "racist" really bothers him.

And again, you might call this a threadjack Pan, but as I warned you in my first posts, your OP was not specifically about "when is something racist" - it was also a rant about being personally labeled, and you cannot expect people to ignore it, despite your repeatedly protesting that "THATS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT." Controlling your OP is much easier than controlling the ensuing reaction.

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dc_dux

Sir....the fact is, no one has labeled pan a racist.

That characterization is his own interpretation of the comments on his posts made by others.

At worst, some may have suggested that his choice of words may be perceived as having racist connotations.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Really????? I can post 3 out right posts where I been called one and MANY more where a poster implies, compares me to or does everything short of call me one.

But..... I guess being called one isn't the same as being labeled as one.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

abaya

So apparently my last post was worth ignoring, even though it was actually addressing the issue. Not that I'm at all surprised.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Willravel

I didn't ignore it. I agreed with it so hard I couldn't add anything to it.

Ustwo

Since the gist of many is that using the term illegal is racist towards Mexicans, are you implying that Mexico is a shit country, full of shit where people are treated like shit?

See how easy it is to play this game?

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abaya

What game? I agree with your statements about Mexico, as far as I can tell. You wouldn't catch me immigrating there anytime soon, based on quality-of-life factors.

No, I am not saying that Mexico is ALL shit, yes it is beautiful, the food is good, people are nice, etc etc. But I am saying that quality of life there, for MOST people, is shit... and that there isn't a whole lot of incentive to staying around and living in shit.

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dc_dux

Pan...please point out where you have been called or labeled a racist.

All I have seen is your defensive, reactionary response to posts that question your choice of words and your subsequent interpretation that some persons are implying that you are racist.

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~ Voltaire

abaya

Good to know; thanks, Will.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

mixedmedia

For my part, I thoroughly clarified and quantified my remarks on the thread that prompted this exercise in self-righteousness. I have never called pan a racist solely because of his opinion on illegal imigration. I have stated several times that it is the accumulation of observations made over the course of time that made me think that he has reactionary tendencies when it comes to issues of race that could easily be interpreted as racist - and have been.

Of course, it's much easier to douse the fires of one's self-immolation if you just pretend that they are being vicitimized for having a particular viewpoint on one particular political issue.

Maybe if I use this technique:

IT IS THE EMOTIONAL CONTENT - THE ANGER AND OUTRAGE - THAT PAN EXHIBITS CONCERNING CERTAIN SUBJECTS (THAT, COINCIDENTALLY OR NOT, HAPPEN TO INVOLVE NON-WHITE RACES AND CULTURES AND THE PRESERVATION OF UNDEFINED 'AMERICAN PRIDE' ISSUES) THAT I HAVE OBSERVED MULTIPLE TIMES THAT PROMPTED ME TO SAY WHAT I DID.

And I have yet to be inspired to think otherwise.

Thanks.

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Charlatan

I am not sure what I have to add to this other than Jinn's posts on this thread are bang on, in my opinion. I have tried to make this same point to other members of the forum that have similar issues (and I have often wanted to edit a post in just the same fashion).

Passion is a good thing but not when it obfuscates meaning and clarity.


I would also like to add that Abaya's post (#38) should be read again if you didn't. There is much being said there that is quite important to the central question of this thread.

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SecretMethod70

Indeed. Abaya is 100% correct: everyone has a tendancy to be xenophobic. It's human nature. It's what we do about that tendancy that matters.

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Le temps détruit tout

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loquitur

actually, SM, I'd put it differently. Everyone has a tendency to be ethnocentric. Xenophobia is a very strong way to put it, and I just see too much natural curiosity and openness in people to accept that "everyone is xenophobic." However, it is certainly true that people view the world through the prism of their own background and experience, and usually are most comfortable with people from that background and type of experience - which is why they are certainly ethnocentric.

Just a slight word difference, but I think it's significant.

SecretMethod70

Fair enough, I can agree with that. Closely related, but I do recognize that there is a difference.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Ustwo

And why is Mexico shit?

The game I'm talking about is the 'Thats racist' game.

To be clear, their is only on reason Mexico is shit, and thats the Mexicans, they run the country and it apparently sucks over all according to you. Me, personally, I don't know enough about how sucky it is over all, its been a LONG time since my last visit.

So this is where we teeter on the edge of what makes a comment factual vrs what makes a comment racist, and how easy it is to claim someone is being a racist.

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pan6467

How about 2 posts down from you to begin with.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

abaya

How can there be a racist game, when I already said that I believe everyone is "racist" and even just a tad bit xenophobic (ethnocentric is indeed a more correct term, but I'll use both here), including myself?
Clearly, that's your opinion. However, if I think the current US administration sucks, that doesn't automatically extend into "all Americans suck." It means Bush sucks, in my opinion, and it stops there. I can't believe I am even having to clarify this argument...

You're also neglecting the role of international trade agreements, farm subsidies, colonial leftover crap, and all the rest of the complicated strands that must be part of any explanation of why some countries are poorer than others. Of course some of that has to do with the faults of the political system and the administration of the country, but that's certainly not a condition limited to Mexico. We are all in a world system here (see Wallerstein), and it operates according to certain rules to maintain the status quo.

The quality of the residents of a country has nothing to do with that country's Gini coefficient. I don't think anyone in their right mind would believe that the shitty administration of a country makes everyone who lives in that country equivalent to shit. It certainly contributes to making a shitty quality of life for those people, as I've said repeatedly, but if you think that automatically makes the people themselves shit... well, wow. We're obviously not going to get anywhere on this discussion, surprise surprise.

Meanwhile, Pan is still going on about being called a racist. If this thread is really what you say it is about, could you respond to my post back there, which was actually responding to your OP (#38)?

__________________
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dc_dux

pan....are you referring to MM's? (2 posts down from my last post):
I agree with MM that you sometimes post in an emotional reactionary manner that could be interpreted as racist because of the words you choose to use and the need to emphasize those words with CAPS and color.

It seems clear to me what she said...that you sometimes demonstrate "reactionary tendencies...that could be interpreted...." Is that calling you a racist?....certainly if you choose to see it that way.

Unfortunately, you still dont see how some of your more inflammatory posts might feed the interpretation....how it could be "easily interpreted as racist".

Strike one.....so where are the other two that called you racist? Or was that just another overreaction?

__________________
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roachboy

you know, pan, there is a long string of posts that have responded to your opening move and that you seem not to feel moved to address here. the arguments converge on questions of political argument and the ways in which those arguments enable or make problematic a slide toward racist conclusions. the problem, then, really, lay in the type of arguments.

within that, you have ms media's post and baraka guru's, which you can line up against each other and use to pose questions to yourself and your relation to these arguments.

and then you have abaya's posts--which i am not sure i agree with exactly---but no matter, its more at the level of word choice than claim--(i agree with loquitor more about the term adjustment) that you could use to think about motive, and how yours might not be particular, but something that we all kinda share and all deal with in our own ways.

if the point of the thread was as you said it was, trying to work out *why* you find yourself making claims that are interpreted at racist on certain issues, i think you have your answer.

but you seem to want to dance a different dance.
i dont really understand what you are doing.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Ustwo

Believe it baby, because you are missing the point entirely.

The issue isn't about xenophobia, or even racism its about people using the racist card to get out of having to defend a position or using it to attack someone else.

I showed how I could easily dismiss your stance as racist if I wanted to, because you obviously think Mexicans are incapable of running their own country.

(AND JUST SO YOU GET THE POINT, I don't REALLY think you think that I am showing how it would be easy to twist what you said, call you a racist, and dismiss anything else you had to say)

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

If that's your point, then where do we disagree? I have never called Pan a racist, unless you count that I call everyone a racist (because we all are, to me). That was the whole point of my post on page 1... to explain that it's not about racism, it's about creating reasons to separate "us" from "them" in a manner that dehumanizes people.

What I *have* said is that anyone who cannot take universal human rights, the status quo of the current world system, etc. into consideration when dealing with complex issues such as "illegal" immigration, is what I consider to be an asshole (and yes, we're all assholes, but as the joke goes... you either know that you're an asshole, or you don't... and I'm talking about those who don't know). But that has nothing to do with whether or not I think he/she is racist. That was my point, way back where... do you agree or disagree with that?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

percy

I think the key word is "justify." Because someone thinks positively or negatively of someone justifies nothing. Too often the term racism comes up yet most people misrepresent it for something else, namely ignorance.

And why? Because the term racism has been watered down to the point where the definition itself, means nothing anymore.

People are too sensitive. We live in a world where entitlement means we can never be criticized no matter how warranted and if we pursue our opinions, well guess what, we get labelled.

People using those labels are scapegoating the arguement usually because they don't like what they hear. Sometimes the truth is very painful. Or because they fail to understand implicit meaning of what is being said due to misguided societal discourse that has entrenched itself into the collective psyche of what's supposedly acceptable and what isn't.

It's not to say racism doesn't exist. But in my experiences there are alot more people who are ignorant rather than racist. I've lived, worked and visited various hotspots in the world and honestly, I've met very few racists.