robot_parade

http://alterx.blogspot.com/2008/03/iran-contra-20.html

The article goes on to call this "Iran-Contra 2.0".

If this is true, how can they possibly be getting away with this? Isn't supplying arms to overthrow a democratically elected regime something that should directly lead to a congressional investigation and impeachment? Are we just so tired of everything the Bush administration has done so far, and not been called on, that we don't care any more?

(Sorry, I know the rule on the politics board is to quote the entire article with no more than one sentence of commentary from myself. Apologies to everyone for the effort required to actually click on the link.)

Jinn

I wish it came from somewhere more reputable than Vanity Fair. Hopefully we'll be hearing more about this in the days to come.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Yes, this is illegal. We're getting away with this because Palestine doesn't have strong allies and the UN Security Council is useless because the US can veto any actions they might take.

There's only one group that can stop this: the American people, and they don't care. Most of them believe the propaganda about Palestinians anyway.

I fear that the Palestinians may disappear in my lifetime.

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't get what is so "illegal" about this. We are giving arms to Fatah, a party/faction of the Palestinian government that is (more) favorable to America, willing to work with Israel, and has actually made moves to reign in terrorist activity. Fatah is elected to the Palestinian government, it just so happens Hamas has more clout than them, the two share a brokered peace deal with the Palestinian President being a member of Fatah.

Also to say that these actions equate to America stoking a "Palestinian Civil War" are completely false and offbase. The two factions needed no help in fighting and running each other out of each others terrority akin to Iraqi sectarian violence where Hamas runs Gaza and Fatah runs the West Bank.

Also I don't see who this is an impeachable offense. We are supplying arms to the Palestinian government technically.

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Baraka_Guru

Yes, robot_parade, I do believe you've asked the wrong question.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

host

Nice opening, got any examples of OPs fitting your description, or just posting in a sarcastic provocative vein?

Yes, if it is true, it does constitute hypocrisy and criminal abuse of office, crimes against humanity, etc.

robot_parade

Fatah, the political party, is who we apparently gave arms to, for the express purpose of overthrowing the Hamas-led (democratically elected) government. That's not giving the Palestinian government weapons. It's exactly the equivalent of if the French government sent of truckload of AK-47's from Mexico to the Democratic National Committee so they could drive the Republican-led government out of Washington. How could that be anything but stoking an American Civil War?

Yes. ;-)

Mojo_PeiPei

I'd be interested to know how weapon aid constitution an abuse of office, or more importantly crimes against humanity, especially seeing how Fatah security would technically be under the umbrella of the government.

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Rekna

The big problem here is every time we have done this in the past it has come back to haunt us. we gave Osama weapons.... we gave Saddam weapons.....

Mojo_PeiPei

We never gave Osama weapons, Pakistan did that for us.

But I agree with the bottom line, anytime America has backed a player it has almost always blown up in our face.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Jinn

Supporting the overthrow of a DEMOCRATIC government is the illegal bit.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Of course, not that it's stopped us before.

Tully Mars

It's never stopped us and I can't think of a time in modern history where it didn't eventually backfire on us BIG TIME.

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Mojo_PeiPei

It's not necessarily like our other "successful" instances in history of involvement.

Fatah is a part of this government, Abbas is the head, it is in fighting between two rival factions.

In this case I think helping Fatah, a far less radical entity which is actually willing to work with the US and Israel is better than letting Hamas, a radical group which is nothing more than a terrorist organization akin to the likes of Hezbollah.

What do you think would happen to the Palestinians if Hamas were to have free reign over the government? You know all these new incursions into Palestine recently? Yeah it's Hamas firing rockets at Israeli targets, you don't have that under Abbas' Fatah. Just think of the ramifications if Hamas, as acting head of state pulled this shit? There would be nothing to hold back Israel as it would be a belligerent act of the state, Palestine would be fucked.

Hell look at how the rest of the world reacted to their election... all foreign aid stopped because nobody wanted Hamas to be able to get their hands on the money because they wouldn't use it for the good of the Palestinian people, they would use it for their own agenda which is the destruction of Israel.

This all might be hypocritical because of how it relates to democracy and free elections, but that doesn't make it wrong or a bad play. America and the world at large are idiotic for not seeing this coming, but just because that is the case doesn't mean they should yield to the likes of Hamas.

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Rekna

We armed Afghanistan (including OBL) when they were occupied by the Soviet Union. We both armed and trained them and OBL was one of them.

Mojo_PeiPei

Wrong, we funneled aid to insurgents through Pakistani intelligence to the tune of 3 billion dollars. All trainers we gave to the cause were sent to Pakistan, which is where they operated out of and called the tactical shots, not Afghanistan. They would train Pakistan agents, who were the go between. The Pakistans therefore had all the discretion, they could give the money/training/weapons to groups that they supported.

It was an Islamic/nationalist cause, they never would have directly accepted aid from America or the West, in most cases they had no idea the CIA was involved.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html

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Tully Mars

I think there are some points there that are debatable. Anytime the CIA gets involved the truth is liquid at best. But the bottom line is they would not have had the assistance if it didn't come from the US. What channels it went through are of little note, IMO.

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Willravel

Mojo, are you familiar with the Afghani Mujahideen? If not, then you really should do your homework before calling people wrong.

Rekna

Let's assume for a second that your article is correct. Then the US still supplied guns and training to Afghanistan. Do you claim that no US money or weapons wound up in Afghanistan? A middle man doesn't stop the chain of responsibility.

Charlatan

I think the key point is that regardless of the go-between, the intention was to support the Mujahideen... the Pakistanis were just window dressing.

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Baraka_Guru

What about the Palestinians? Have we forgotten about them again?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Mojo_PeiPei

Palestinians are screwed. They are better off with an American backed Fatah government, but they voted for a terrorist organization that cannot work with Israel or the outside world.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Willravel

It's their government, not ours. We don't get to choose their leadership.

Besides who the fuck are Americans to tell other people they voted the wrong person or people into office? We actually managed to elect Gomer Pyle. At least their leaders have some semblance of intellect. Our leader was almost assassinated by Wetzels Pretzels.

Charlatan

You are right. They probably would be better off with Fatah. That said, it is not the job of the US to support one faction over the other. As much as it might seem to be the right thing to do, these sorts of actions never amount to go and always end up causing more problems.

To my eyes, this is yet another attempt to find a quick and dirty solution to an issue that requires a long, slow game. The quick and dirty solutions almost never work.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't see how it is an issue of quick and dirty.

For starters, the article in the OP itself doesn't atest to American actions being illegal, so the title is moot.

Also there is no way of knowing, and I would say that the notion is false, that this infighting is a result of American string pulling. Their were problems from the get go between Fatah and Hamas, it started when Abbas used his powers to dissolve the parliament after weeks of instability and infighting.

I have no problem with the US backing the PA and Fatah, and I don't see how any of you here can either. For starters a lot of you always piss and moan about the plight of the Palestinian people, under Abbas and Fatah things were getting down and the road map was working. Their were no incursions, many check points were open, foreign aid was allowed to reach the people things were looking up. Hell until the last week the only real people killing Palestinians were other Palestinians, then Hamas started firing rockets off again.

The Palestinians had to do the dumbest possible thing and elect a terrorist organization into power. Every hardliner in Israel probably blew their load at the prospect.

Just because it is their right to vote as such, doesn't make it smart, and it doesn't mean we should have to stand for it. They are like little kids, they need the guidance because they obviously cannot figure this out for themselves. I mean unless they like living under martial law with the presence of Israeli tanks and soldiers on the whims of incursions.

ANd we do have a say in this because we are vested and the whole damn world seems to think it is our responsibilty to help them with it via some peace frame work.

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Charlatan

I'm not going to comment on the legality of supplying weapons. I could care less about the legal ramifications.

I say it is quick and dirty more out of my thought that this is the typical solution sought by the US when they get involved. Topple a leader here. Support an opposition there. Throw money and arms at the problem and hope for the best.

I've always felt that the true way to bring about positive change is investment in infrastructure, education, training and business development. It sounds wishy-washy but it seems to be working for Iranians and Saudi "investors" in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Go to the madrases there and see that they have been sponsored by Saudi money.

Influence the education. Do business and increase trade with them. And you will make a partner.

Sponsor violent clashes, and you will win an enemy.

That said, I am not blind to the damages that Hamas is doing but you need to actively change the minds of those who voted them into power. You need to build both hope and self respect in the Palestinians. Something that is lacking.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

roachboy

there is no justification for what is happening in gaza.
there is no coherence to israeli policy choices. weaken hamas by isolating it and preventing it from carrying out services--in other words, respond to a democratic election with a siege--while selling yourself as a democracy.
a page right outta the american fo book (chile 1972 comes to mind for example)
the bush administration, of course, is worthless.
as a result--again---people die.

but hey, who cares..............>they're just palestinians.
we have geopolitical "concerns"--let em die while we debate the important stuff.
they don't matter.
clearly.
not in washington, not in tel aviv, not even here.

i cannot imagine anyone knowing what has been happening in gaza being able to justify it. so far as i am concerned, you justify the israeli/american supported actions, you do not know what you are justifying.

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it make you sick.

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Xazy

Yep just let them to rearm themselves and the hundreds of rockets that they fire during the year in to towns and city, leave Hamas alone. And when Israel comes in to defend they call out on tv, and the radio civilians come and be human shields and defend. They also took a note from Hezballah and keep weapons and fire rockets from peoples houses. But we should blame israel for trying to defend itself from the hundreds of rockets fired at it.

If we give weapons to fatah, there is a possibility of peace. If Hamas takes over, there is none. Should America be the ones to decide this, is a very valid question, but Israel can not help Fatah, since that would undermine Abbas. So if the world does not help Fatah, then just give up on peace until a new government is elected in the west bank.

roachboy

circular argument, xazy.
same bankrupt logic that resulted in the siege.

what if---say---israel and the us had just sucked it up and accepted hamas in gaza, allowed them to govern under the assumption that the experience of power would moderate them?

of course, one cannot imagine the bush people thinking that clearly and it benefits the present status quo to maintain conflict on the one hand while deploring it on the other.

the present policy maintains a radicalized hamas--israel and the americans claim this is what they do not want--why pursue brutal colonial policies that you KNOW produce the outcome you do not want? AND they undermine your own position politically, ethically, etc. it makes no sense.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Xazy

Not sure how it is a circular argument...

I do not care if Hamas controls Gaza or not, I just care if they attack their neighbor. If you are the government there and fire rockets in to your neighbor then you are being an aggressor and they should be able to respond. Awesome Israel also has the right to cutoff any trade / electricity with said aggressive nation.

I am all for it, let them become that nation, but if they attack a neighboring country they should have the right to defend itself. Personally i would prefer a peace partner.

roachboy

you know, i was going to take you seriously too.
thanks for saving me the bother.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Xazy

I am glad you are open minded, and try to see both sides.

Hamas does not recognize the state of Israel and calls for their destruction. If they was the government there, why would you have any type of open border with them? On top of that they are responsible for hundreds of rockets. They ordered the citizens to be human shields this past week during the fighting, and then cry to the world for every injured / killed citizen (which I think is sad and horrible, about the injuries, but I blame the terrorists who hide amongst them). They fire rockets from houses. I can go on about the hatred they teach to the children, etc... But unless Hamas changes their views drastically, I would fully support a closed border with any Hamas territory.

powerclown

palestinians
keep shooting rockets at jews,
pavlov not impressed.

Baraka_Guru

Regardless of what Hamas does, Israel should not get a "get-out-of-human-rights-free card."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i am not playing a game of standing blindly pro-israel political positions on their head, xazy---the whole framework gets nowhere. it has obviously gotten nowhere: look at what's happening. look at what's been happening. hamas is not a group of unproblematic folk--but they have traction BECAUSE of the occupation and increasingly its brutality JUSTIFIES their existence and EXTENDS their appeal. it's an entirely self-defeating situation. the americans and israelis made a bad bad choice when they decided to separate in their imaginations gaza from the west bank, purportedly to split fatah (another not entirely unproblematic organization) from hamas---the error was not allowing hamas to take power. power moderates: look at the history of israel itself for proof (who were the folk who assumed power after 1948 and what were they like politically before that?) if the same logic had been applied to israel itself that israel now applies to palestine, there'd be no israel. face it: it is a stupid, brutal policy that has been substituted for reason with reference to gaza, and its results brutalize ALL sides--though if you equate casualty rates on the israeli side to those of the palestinian population in gaza, you simply rule yourself out of serious conversation--this is not to say--and dont try to impute it to me---that israeli casualties are ok---but come on, be serious--massive palestinian casualties and everyday life in grinding miserable conditions PRODUCED by the israeli siege because the government is using the fact they dont like hamas to justify crushing the gaza population--that is not right..

fact is that the dynamic is foul beyond imagining. no-one wins. no-one can win. weak political regimes in the us and israel depend on this violence to prop themselves up.

what is happening in gaza is either among the most cynical policy choices i know of since--o--the war in iraq---or it is the result of a colossal fuck up, one of the biggest since---o--the war in iraq.

while the consequences of this incompetence unfold, FAR more palestinians die in FAR worse conditions every day in gaza than obtain ANYWHERE in israel. period.

justify that.
i cant.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Xazy

What I find sad, is how everyone goes yes terrorism is bad, and the rocket firing is bad. But we do not talk about the terror and trauma, injuries, deaths that happen from the rockets fired in to Israel daily. Daily is shocking to a lot of people since we rarely even hear about it. And we demand that Israel just accept it, and not fire back at all, since when they do Hamas literally calls out on their tv / radio for their civilians to surround them. And if Israel tries any other possible solution including removing some electricity we yell at them. The way I picture it, is Hamas hiding behind a citizen with a rocket pointing at Israel give us everything, oh and we think you have no right to exist. It is a very basic picture of it, but it is very accurate. Now the people I feel sympathy are the people of sedrot, ashkalon, etc... and all the innocent Palestinians.

I have yet to hear a single reply (anywhere from anyone) how Israel, can stop the rocket firing and keep its citizens safe, without someone yelling about human rights.

roachboy

if human rights are not your concern, then why are the rockets a problem?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

loquitur

Justify it? Easy. Their leaders would rather keep them miserable and fighting to extinguish Israel than accept Israel as a neighbor and have the populace thrive. This has been the tragedy of the Palestinians since, oh, 1920 and the importation of western-style nationalism after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. They'd rather keep their exterminationist dream alive, even if it means misery, than give up their hopes for a judenrein middle east. You're a nice person and can't understand that kind of hatred. Most westerners can't. But you're also lucky and don't have to deal with having it right next door.

If you look at Israeli public opinion, the sizable majority would walk away from the WB and Gaza in a millisecond and yes, abandon settlements, if they had any reason to think that would end the conflict - but they are convinced by the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah that it won't, because Hamas doesn't want to end it short of Israel disappearing. Again, a spot of research would bear this out without too much trouble. I think you owe Hamas the fundamental human respect of taking them at their word - they say they want to eliminate Israel, so I think we should believe them.

One other thing: yes, the Palis in Gaza live in squalor. But go have a look at the comments they made when they went to el-Arish and other Egyptian towns back when Hamas knocked down the wall at the Egyptian border and the Gazans went to Egypt to shop. I can dig up some of the articles if you like. The Gazans found that the non-occupied Egyptians lived in even more horrifying squalor than they did.

Comparing a first-world society like Israel to a third-world society like Gaza isn't a relevant comparison. Societies similar to the Palestinian Arabs produce squalor in abundance without being occupied or otherwise "oppressed"; what makes you think the Palestinians' living conditions wouldn't be squalid if the Israelis disappeared tomorrow?

roachboy

uh---sounds like alot of posturing, loquitor.
how about the proposition that was at the center of my actual argument, which was that israel and the united states screwed up when they chose to prevent hamas from governing. they wanted to "undermine" hamas by adopting tactics that legitimated it. riddle me that.

and if the same line israel adopts toward hamas had been adopted toward israel in 1948, who would have governed?

two weight. two measures.
i'm starting to smell something foul beneath the veneer of these "arguments"

luckily, i have stuff to do this afternoon.
it's better.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Xazy

Israel is justifying itself using the daily rocket attacks, the attempts at suicide bombers (they actually stop most of them, but they do happen still and rarely make our news), in order to defend itself. The casualties would not be as high if they did not call using their media for the citizens to surround them while they fire rockets, and use houses for ammo drops. Israel is not firing at the citizens rather at the terrorist, while Hamas fires rockets at civilian sites (not to mention suicide bombers attack civilians). In the first 2 months of 2008 there have been confirmed over 400 rocket attacks. Again I would love a real defense thought from anyone, for a government that has to protect its citizens, where the terrorists are the elected 'government' and will use their citizens as human shields.