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Old 03-08-2008, 07:57 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Great article.

I'll be very happy if Obama wins and we don't hear the name Clinton again for many years. What she's doing is bad for Democrats and bad for America.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by flstf
The thinking in Hillary's campaign is probably something like, if they can't win the primary then damage Obama so much that he can't win the general. That way they can take another run at it in 4 years rather than waiting for 8 years.
I hope you're wrong but fear you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
Agreed.I hope not.I think Obama is perfectly capable of dealing with the Republicans, but you're right that at the rate the Democratic election is going they'll likely lose their advantage over time at this rate.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...e3916817.shtml

I'm convinced at this point Hillary will say and or do anything to get elected. If she ends up destroying the party in her attempt so be it. I mean she's singing the praises of John McCain now in an effort to hurt Obama. Like that's not going to be repeated on a 20 minute loop on Fox News in the fall. It's like she feels the nomination is her right, she's earned it already and how dare anyone challenge her path to the White House. It's damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, if the ship sinks... I'll have a leg up in 2012.
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:42 AM   #82 (permalink)
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I have been looking around for information on this, but have not found anything specifically. So if anyone has heard anything, please share. Or even better if you have a link to something.

Does anyone know where Obama stands on the issue of Israel / Palestine? I heard Hillary flip-flop that so many times I don’t really know where she is at on that. I know exactly where McCain’s mindset is at on that subject.
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:02 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
I have been looking around for information on this, but have not found anything specifically. So if anyone has heard anything, please share. Or even better if you have a link to something.

I'm lost. What information are you looking for?
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:51 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tully Mars
I'm lost. What information are you looking for?

What his views are on how to handle the situation there. Normally, I would say the U.S. really may not have such a say without the UN, but with the amount of aid given it changes things. (Speaking of aid; both weapons and $$$- what his views are on that as well)
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:39 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
I have been looking around for information on this, but have not found anything specifically. So if anyone has heard anything, please share. Or even better if you have a link to something.

Does anyone know where Obama stands on the issue of Israel / Palestine? I heard Hillary flip-flop that so many times I don’t really know where she is at on that. I know exactly where McCain’s mindset is at on that subject.
Well, did you try here:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fo...licy/#onisrael

So, pretty pro-Israel - more pro-Israel sounding than would personally like, but considering the political climate here in the US, anything less would probably get one eaten alive.
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Old 03-08-2008, 10:00 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Yeah I guess I missed it the first time going through his site. Thanks. I suppose its political suicide for any candidate to mention even handedness.
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:24 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Well, my hope is that it's possible to be evenhanded within the context of the views described on that website. A commitment to Isreal and recognition of their right to defend themselves doesn't preclude a commitment to Palestine and recognition of the Palestinian people's right to defend themselves. It also doesn't necessarily mean supporting Isreal's destructive policies - like the announcement today of new 'settlements', and the various well-documented atrocities committed by Isreal. :-/

OTOH, I may be reading to much into it, and Obama will be just as bad as our recent past presidents in this regard. Ultimately, we can't fix Isreal and Palestine's problem...both sides have to simultaneously realize that the blood of their children is worth more than land.
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:40 AM   #88 (permalink)
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The Times of London reported today on the bursting of the Obama bubble, and has articulated pretty much what I have been saying for months about Obama:
Quote:
The Clinton camp is treading carefully, aware that overt attacks on Obama might alienate black voters. Yet the New York senator’s aides are quietly pleased by what they regard as an overdue scrutiny of Obama’s past. They believe he will come to be seen not as some Messiah but as an unusually gifted political hack who has made compromises with dodgy associates, just like most other American politicians. (my emphasis)
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:46 AM   #89 (permalink)
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If Rezko and Wright are the best people can do at "exposing Obama's past," then I'm happy to see them do it. Both are complete non-issues.
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:59 AM   #90 (permalink)
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That's fine, SM. If it's just a question of what issues you find relevant in making the choice, that's normal politics. All I was saying (maybe I wasn't clear) is that Obama is not something qualitatively different from other politicians, except for his charisma and speaking ability, which really are astoundingly good. In other respects he's just a garden variety big-city leftish pol - which is OK, because the city I live in is full of them, and they're nice people. But they're not anything special.
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:51 PM   #91 (permalink)
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He's been off-message the last couple weeks, no question. He's said that the Wright business "shook him up" and pointed out how much he'd descended into infighting and campaigning-as-usual, and that had hurt his numbers. So I expect to see a return to the high-minded approach that struck such a chord with so many people a month or so back.
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Old 03-23-2008, 01:30 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by loquitur
The Times of London reported today on the bursting of the Obama bubble, and has articulated pretty much what I have been saying for months about Obama:
Predicting the political death of politicians is standard fare on a slow news day. Here's yet another Person From Obama's Past. We'll see how it plays out.

/me pines for an "Obama is my co-pilot" bumper sticker. I'll put it right next to the "Bush/Cheney '08" one that I also want to get. Why do I always want the bumper stickers that will get my ass kicked?
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:19 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I am not predicting Obama's political death. I'm just saying he is merely a politician - a very talented one, charismatic and clever, but still only a politician. He has baggage just like everyone else.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:22 PM   #94 (permalink)
 
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again--you do you think you're surprising with this, loquitor? you've been stating the perfectly obvious over and over as if you've just descended from the Mount dressed like charlton heston.

seriously...this is a kind of "duh" point.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:34 PM   #95 (permalink)
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well, ok, roachboy. I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on this. I don't have anything against Obama - I kind of like him, actually - I just found a lot of the worship stuff to be creepy.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:58 PM   #96 (permalink)
 
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i think the worship of public figures is creepy too------when i find it.

but i haven't found it amongst the obama supporters that i have talked to or have read stuff from.
i *did* see stuff couched in these terms on television--but who the hell thinks television infotainment is accurate?
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:54 PM   #97 (permalink)
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dunno, buddy, those fainting women at the rallies was sort of a giveaway to me........
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:03 PM   #98 (permalink)
 
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buddy?

dense crowds, eh? like lots of people packed into a fairly small area?
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:20 PM   #99 (permalink)
 
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The cure for the handful of people who fainted at Obama rallys is pretty simple.

Chairs, water bottles and better ventilation in the rooms.
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:53 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by loquitur
dunno, buddy, those fainting women at the rallies was sort of a giveaway to me........
I guess you missed the post a month ago where I mentioned having seen video of Hillary, McCain, AND Huckabee dealing with fainters in their audiences?

It's not about adulation. It's about having eaten breakfast that morning.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:30 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I am not predicting Obama's political death. I'm just saying he is merely a politician - a very talented one, charismatic and clever, but still only a politician. He has baggage just like everyone else.
loquitur, I am still holding out hope that you have not been frequenting the right wing's <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Mighty+Wurlitzer%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=-1&oq=%22">"Mighty Wurlitzer"</a> kool-ade stand...

yer right, EVERYONE has "baggage":
Quote:
http://instapundit.com/archives2/016574.php
<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-070121-relig_wright,1,271630.story?cset=true&ctrack=1&page=1&coll=chi-religion-topheadlines">Oprah Winfrey goes to Wright's church, too?</a> "Wright, 65, is a straight-talking pragmatist who arrived in Chicago as an outsider and became an institution. He has built a congregation of 8,500, including the likes of Oprah Winfrey and hip-hop artist Common, by offering an alternative to socially conservative black churches that are, Wright believes, too closely tied to Chicago's political dynasties." That's from a 2007 Chicago Tribune piece via <a href="http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/14/2007-profile-wright-provides-spiritual-guidance-for-obama-oprah/">Hot Air</a>. This kind of makes me see Oprah a bit differently, too. "Not many people would associate Oprah’s easygoing nature and warm, welcoming appeal with the kind of oratory provided by Wright." As with Mitt Romney on <a href="http://instapundit.com/archives2/014856.php">guns</a>, I'm starting to think that they haven't been entirely straight with us.
Quote:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...s&cat=&sid=101

GOP RALLIES IN COLUMBUS, CINCINNATI
Huckabee, McCain keep rivalry in motion
Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:06 AM
By Alan Johnson and James Nash
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

....Meanwhile, McCain campaigned yesterday in Cincinnati, where he appeared with the Rev. Rod Parsley of World Harvest Church of Columbus. McCain called Parsley a "spiritual guide," while Parsley later labeled McCain a "strong, true, consistent conservative....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...arch&aq=-1&oq=

The secular media never likes it when I say this, so let me say it twice. Man your battle stations! Ready your weapons! They say this rhetoric is so inciting. I came to incite a riot. ... Man your battle stations. Ready your weapons. Lock and load--for the thirty, forty liberal pastors who filed against our ministry with the Internal Revenue Service. ... Let the struggle begin. Let it begin in your heart today with a shout unto him who has called us to war--not only that, he has empowered you and I to win. —Rod Parsley

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...ves/14969.html
The pastor who accuses the United States of ‘black genocide’
Posted March 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm


Barack Obama has gone to considerable lengths to distance himself from the inflammatory remarks of his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, but some remarks are harder to dismiss. When Wright, for example, said the United States government has been complicit in facilitating black genocide, it was hard not to cringe and seek an explanation from the presidential candidate he’s associated with.

Oh, wait, did I say Jeremiah Wright? Actually, this is an argument <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mccain-spiritual-guide-ac_n_92757.html">peddled</a> by the Rev. Rod Parsley, a man John McCain has praised as a “spiritual guide.”

In speeches that have gone largely unnoticed, Parsley (who is white) compares Planned Parenthood, the reproductive care and family planning group, to the Klu Klux Klan and Nazis, and describes the American government as enablers of murder for supporting the organization.

“If I were call for the sterilization or the elimination of an entire segment of society, I’d be labeled a racists or a murderer, or at very best a Nazi,” says Parsley. “That every single year, millions of our tax dollars are funding a national organization built upon that very goal — their target: African Americans. That’s right, the death toll: nearly fifteen hundred African Americans a day. The shocking truth of black genocide.”

He goes on.

“Right now our own government is allowing organizations like Planned Parenthood to legally take the innocent lives of precious baby girls and baby boys and even footing the bill for it all with our tax dollars, turning every single one of us into accessories to murder,” he says.

This comes on the heels of a <a href="http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html">report</a> from David Corn who noted that the televangelist “called upon Christians to wage a ‘war’ against the ‘false religion’ of Islam with the aim of destroying it.”

Better yet, our old friend John Hagee is back in the news, too.

Greg Mitchell has <a href="http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003728364">the story</a>:

In an interview that will appear in this Sunday’s New York Times Magazine, controversial televangelist Rev. John Hagee declares, “It’s true that [John] McCain’s campaign sought my endorsement.”...
Have you ever noticed loquitur....that white people are not asked about every obnoxious thing other white people have said and done? Why do you think that there is such a double standard practiced by those who get to ask the questions? How does the practice shape your POV?

Quote:
http://openlettertotimrussert.blogsp...k-senator.html
Monday, January 23, 2006
To Tim Russert: Why Did You Ask Senator Obama About Harry Belafonte?
Tim Russert,

This Sunday, you asked Senator Barack Obama to respond to Harry Belafonte's remarks about George W. Bush being a "terrorist." Why?

Why did you ask this question?

Harry Belafonte isn't an elected official, he doesn't speak for Democrats, he doesn't represent Senator Obama, he doesn't represent the Democratic Party, and he is entitled to his own opinion.

And why did you direct this question to Senator Barack Obama in particular? And did you raise the issue of Harry Belafonte's recent comments with any previous guests? And is it true that Colin Powell is the only other person you've ever asked about Harry Belafonte?

We'd appreciate an explanation.

http://openlettertotimrussert.blogsp...1_archive.html
Monday, January 30, 2006
Tim, Quick Question
Why didn't you ask Bill Frist about <a href="http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/6469.html">Ann Coulter</a> calling for the assassination of Justice John Paul Stevens?

posted by Dale Strayton at 8:04 PM

http://www.state.gov/secretary/forme...2003/20163.htm
Interview on NBC's Meet the Press With Tim Russert
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
May 4, 2003

(10:30 a.m. EDT)

...MR. RUSSERT: You mentioned criticism of Castro. In fact, some artists and writers from the United States of America, led by Harry Belafonte, said that the United States has been guilty of harassment of Cuba, and this is a pretext for invasion.

SECRETARY POWELL: This is absolute nonsense, but we've gotten used to absolute nonsense coming from Mr. Belafonte. This isn't the first time that he has praised the Cuban regime and its outrageous --
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:34 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Obama's baggage is that his name is on the USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (3/2/06). Who the fuck cares about some random preacher? Jesus Christ, it's the blowjob and a cigar all over again...
... are we all really this stupid?
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:51 PM   #103 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by willravel
Obama's baggage is that his name is on the USA PATRIOT
If I recall, Obama initially voted against the reauthorization of the Patriot Act in 2006 and only voted for the final version after he fought to include several provisions (restrictions on FBI use of national security letters and roving wiretaps) that were in a bill he cosponsored a year earlier, the Security and Freedom and Enhancement (SAFE) Act of 2005.

The Patriot Act is far from perfect, but it was going to pass by a large margin. I would suggest that Obama's provisions at least made it marginally better.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:55 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Yes, he did vote on the revised version, but it was still a horrible attack on freedoms (just slightly less than the 2005 version, clearly authored by Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rummy on a Jager bender). Wether it was slated to win or not, wouldn't it be the responsibility of a free thinking, intelligent man like Barak appears to be to vote against it?
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:02 PM   #105 (permalink)
 
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will...there is a reason why we have had only one president go directly from the Senate to the White House in the last 100+ years...JFK.

Voting in the Senate is much more nuanced than say if you were a former governor who either signs a bill or vetos it.

Feingold's stance on the Patriot Act may have been more noble, but Obama's accomplished more.....it made a very bad bill slightly less bad.

Would you have prefered the version without the amendments Obama (and other Dems) forced into the bill?
Quote:
wouldn't it be the responsibility of a free thinking, intelligent man like Barak appears to be to vote against it?
There are two schools of thought....

* tale what you believe is the high ground and claim a moral victory....or
* take a more pragmatic approach and make the most out of a bad situation and accomplish something tangible

Personally, I think that while the first option is more ideologically pure, in some cases, the second option is more responsible.
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:12 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Obama's baggage is that his name is on the USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (3/2/06). Who the fuck cares about some random preacher? Jesus Christ, it's the blowjob and a cigar all over again...
... are we all really this stupid?
Should Oprah lose her TV show because she goes to a church the <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Mighty+Wurlitzer%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=-1&oq=%22">"Mighty Wurlitzer"</a> has under attack? She does fall under FCC regulatory oversight....

Why is Obama's opponent so adored by the media?

Quote:
http://news.google.com/archivesearch...earch+Archives

On that gray morning more than 32 years ago, McCain was knocked unconscious briefly when he ejected from his damaged bomber. Both his arms were broken, his right knee was shattered, and when he splashed into the middle of Truc Bach (White Silk) Lake, his 50 pounds of flight gear kept him from reaching the surface.

When [Mai Van] On finally got to him, about 200 yards out, all the older man could see was a bit of white silk, the top of the American's parachute.

With U.S. planes still bombing and strafing their target of the day - a nearby light-bulb factory where On worked as a security guard - On used a stout bamboo pole to hoist McCain off the bottom of the lake.....

http://lefti.blogspot.com/2005_05_01...46161273835959

Bombing a lightbulb factory, a civilian target, is a war crime. McCain, obviously, didn't select the target, he was just following orders, but that doesn't exonerate him any more than any other soldier who follows an illegal order. According to Amnesty International this particular violation of the Geneva Conventions (bombing civilian targets) is actually official U.S. military doctrine:

"Military advantage may involve a variety of considerations, including the security of the attacking force. ... Economic targets of the enemy that indirectly but effectively support and sustain the enemy’s war-fighting capability may also be attacked.”

"War is a clash of opposing wills.... While physical factors are crucial in war, the national will and the leadership’s will are also critical components of war. The will to prosecute or the will to resist can be decisive elements....Strategic attack objectives often include producing effects to demoralize the enemy’s leadership, military forces, and population, thus affecting the adversary’s capability to continue the conflict.”

Both of these statements, taken from different U.S. military manuals and documents, represent direct violations of the Geneva Convention (and, it should be noted, well before the advent of George W. Bush).

But McCain didn't just carry out such illegal orders himself, he willingly voiced support for them, specifically during the 1999 war against Yugoslavia when, as I wrote here, "water systems, power and heating plants, hospitals, universities, schools, apartment complexes, senior citizens' homes, bridges, factories, trains, buses, radio and TV stations, the telephone system, oil refineries, embassies, marketplaces and more were deliberately destroyed by U.S./NATO planes in a ruthless 10-week bombing campaign."

John McCain - war criminal then, war criminal now, war criminal forever.
With his background, why does the media revere McCain instead of tarring him as ?????
Quote:
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3056994
McCain Jokes About Bombing Iran
McCain Parodies Beach Boys Song 'Barbara Ann', Jokes About Bombing Iran
By LIZ SIDOTI
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON

Republican presidential contender John McCain, known for having a quirky sense of humor, joked about bombing Iran at a campaign appearance this week.

In response to an audience question about military action against Iran, the Arizona senator briefly sang the chorus of the surf-rocker classic "Barbara Ann."

"That old, eh, that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran," he said in jest Wednesday, chuckling with the crowd. Then, he softly sang to the melody: "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, anyway, ah ..." The audience responded with more laughter.....

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Old 03-23-2008, 08:12 PM   #107 (permalink)
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No doubt, Obama is a politician. Though I do think it's disingenuous to say he's not any different besides his eloquence and charisma. He does seem much more willing to consider all sides of an issue than your typical US politician. And I could be wrong, but I don't know of many major national politicians, let alone presidential candidates, who can say they once taught constitutional law at one of the most prestigious law schools in the country.

Professor Obama was a listener, students say
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:22 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Host, Hillary is Obama's opponent for the time being. We're all hoping she'll pull out before the convention, so as not to screw up the Dem ticket for the White House any more than she already has.

But again, I don't think there are any McCain supporters on TFP. Maybe like one; two, tops. You'd be better off shooting down Hillary here and maybe Obama. Besides, I think McCain is incredibly corrupt and quite possibly is still suffering the effects of his imprisonment and torture. I don't need convincing.
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:20 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Obama's baggage is that his name is on the USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (3/2/06). Who the fuck cares about some random preacher? Jesus Christ, it's the blowjob and a cigar all over again...
... are we all really this stupid?
Is baggage still baggage when everybody carries it? Because Clinton and McCain both voted YES on the PATRIOT re-auth too, and without the effort to improve it that Obama showed.

By the way--Obama will be holding a rally here in my home town (about five minutes away from where I live) on Wednesday. I'm going to go stand in line for tickets later this morning. Assuming I get in, loquitur, I'll let you know if I faint on first sight of my idol!

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Old 03-24-2008, 05:28 AM   #110 (permalink)
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It took me much time to find on Obama's site that he is coming to Greensboro on 3/26. For most events, "tickets" can be ordered online, and they are free. Registration is required on the site's "events" page:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/myevents_login

I know his campaign considers Obama to be a "shoe in" victor for the nomination fight, but the ticketing and registration requirements remind me of another recent political campaign's policies. Why would Obama want to also have such a regimented image?
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:37 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by host
It took me much time to find on Obama's site that he is coming to Greensboro on 3/26. For most events, "tickets" can be ordered online, and they are free. Registration is required on the site's "events" page:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/myevents_login

I know his campaign considers Obama to be a "shoe in" victor for the nomination fight, but the ticketing and registration requirements remind me of another recent political campaign's policies. Why would Obama want to also have such a regimented image?
Well, space is finite in the venue he'll be in, and I imagine with security concerns, they want to do what they can to control attendance. I'm not holding this against him--it's being managed by the local Democratic Committee.

I'm not finding anywhere on his site to order tickets. Did you actually see that for this event?
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:10 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Well, space is finite in the venue he'll be in, and I imagine with security concerns, they want to do what they can to control attendance. I'm not holding this against him--it's being managed by the local Democratic Committee.

I'm not finding anywhere on his site to order tickets. Did you actually see that for this event?
He's a victim of his own popularity, but the SS admitted that they didn't screen for weapons, at least once, at an Obama venue last month. I want his campaign to be a breath of fresh are, compared to the regimented screening at the Bush/cheney 2004 campaign rallies....and I know you want the same.

In portland, or, tickets could be ordered online, but they went quickly.
http://or.barackobama.com/portland

If you're planning to go to this, I think this is your only option for tickets, and it might be that you have a better chance to actually get them, with this distribution arrangement:
http://nc.barackobama.com/greensboro

Last edited by host; 03-24-2008 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:38 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Is baggage still baggage when everybody carries it?
Yes, absolutely. The mindset of "lesser of all evils" has people thinking the person who made the least mistakes deserves the oval office, but a mistake is a mistake.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:44 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
He's a victim of his own popularity, but the SS admitted that they didn't screen for weapons, at least once, at an Obama venue last month. I want his campaign to be a breath of fresh are, compared to the regimented screening at the Bush/cheney 2004 campaign rallies....and I know you want the same.

In portland, or, tickets could be ordered online, but they went quickly.
http://or.barackobama.com/portland

If you're planning to go to this, I think this is your only option for tickets, and it might be that you have a better chance to actually get them, with this distribution arrangement:
http://nc.barackobama.com/greensboro
In 2004 I worked security at several events for Kerry Edwards in Oregon. Usually at Pioneer Square in down town Portland. And usually checking press passes. I volunteered for the Dems that year partly out of guilt for voting for GWB in 2000 and mainly in an attempt to stop/change the direction I felt the country was headed.

I was surprised at the lack of realistic security. I almost always worked the press entrance with at least one other person, sometimes two. Not once did that other person have any law enforcement back ground. We were briefed by SS to allow only print, radio and TV press, no web based press allowed. I turned away several individuals that had home made press passes exclaiming their affiliation with what was likely their own blog. I have serious reason to suspect my co-volunteers let everyone through. So, basically if you wanted to get close to Kerry or Edwards head to your local Kinkos.

I got an e-mail a couple weeks ago asking if I'd be willing to help out for Obama's visit last week. I updated my e-mail with them, but never explained I no longer live in Oregon. Kind of made me wish I was still in Oregon, would have liked to have been there.

On a side note- I notice Obama filled the old Memorial Coliseum, which holds about 10K. Kerry and Edwards filled the Pioneer Square which holds a few hundred (maybe a thousand?) I wonder if Obama could have filled the Rose Garden? It can hold 25K+.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:10 AM   #115 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Yes, absolutely. The mindset of "lesser of all evils" has people thinking the person who made the least mistakes deserves the oval office, but a mistake is a mistake.
will...I would suggest that making a pragmatic decision does not make a person a "lesser of evils."
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:21 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
will...I would suggest that making a pragmatic decision does not make a person a "lesser of evils."
I saw the movie "Exorcist: the Beginning" a few weeks ago. It's not a bad movie, fairly decent actually. Part of the origin story for the main character, a Priest who has had serious problems with his faith, is during his service to the church during the time when the SS was in it's height of power in Germany. A particularly sick soldier takes the priest outside in front of his church to see a group of people ranging from children to elder, all jewish. "Shoot one of them." After much shouting and threatening, he decides the prudent choice—the only choice—is to shoot the older people in order to save the young. It was a pragmatic choice, but it also made him a murderer. He had to compromise on his morals in order to make such a pragmatic choice, a choice that ultimately still left innocent people victimized by his actions. He was being bipartisan with monsters. You don't compromise with monsters.

A presidential man should not compromise with enemies of his people.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:28 AM   #117 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
IA presidential man should not compromise with enemies of his people.
In war, there are enemies.

In public policy, there are adversaries.

A good politician and political leader can recognize the difference and act accordingly.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:29 AM   #118 (permalink)
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I am struggling to decide if it would have been a better choice to attempt to shoot the "sick soldier", or myself, if I were the priest in the situation you described, or just to refuse to take the gun, and leave the choice of who to shoot, to the "sick soldier".....
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:53 AM   #119 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
In war, there are enemies.

In public policy, there are adversaries.

A good politician and political leader can recognize the difference and act accordingly.
I don't consider the Bush Administration an adversary to the common good, but an enemy. I can't see how anyone could look on Bush and not see someone who actively works against freedom and peace and think "I could compromise with such a man".

Host, in taking the gun the priest became the tool of the sick soldier. I likely would have given my life fighting the soldier, on the small chance someone could have escaped. The idea that one can work for the monster but to dull his effect on his victims simply makes you a lesser monster.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:13 AM   #120 (permalink)
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I know it isn't relevant for the sake of this discussion, but in Exorcist: The Beginning, the priest doesn't actually shoot anyone. The Nazi makes him choose the ones that the soldier will kill or else he will just wantonly shoot away.

What is relevant is the underlying message throughout the movie. That the priest did not, in fact, become party to the Nazis evil because of his compromise but suffered because he let that compromise strip him of his faith. Actually, it was his very rigid ideology (i.e., A good God wouldn't allow this kind of evil to exist) that caused him to lose faith and led to suffering. The idea that a 'presidential' individual doesn't compromise with the enemies is ludicrous. First it begs the question, how are these enemies and what defines them as such? Second, the idea that these enemies are completely & entirely wrong/at-fault is egocentric nonsense. There is always room to compromise, even with our enemies. Certainly there are individual issues that shouldn't be compromised, but people/nations are not simply issue-vessels and there is always room to compromise with them.

Either way, if the issue is the significance of Barak's vote on the Reauthorization Act then I say it is significant to the campaign, as run, but not to me. I don't want a president whose willing to cast a losing vote that won't matter one way or another for ethical reasons when he/she could have cast the opposite vote after bartering for even a slightly better bargain that serves his constituents (assumedly people with similar ethical thinking). So as things went down here, I find something I like about Barak. However, his campaign is being run on a very ideological message and that sort of compromise can be damning to such a message. So ironically something I find reassuring about Barak may end up hurting him with his actual base. Then again I suppose it's not all that ironic considering my well-known support of Clinton.
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