Tully Mars

Agreed

I hope you're wrong but fear you're right.


I'm convinced at this point Hillary will say and or do anything to get elected. If she ends up destroying the party in her attempt so be it. I mean she's singing the praises of John McCain now in an effort to hurt Obama. Like that's not going to be repeated on a 20 minute loop on Fox News in the fall. It's like she feels the nomination is her right, she's earned it already and how dare anyone challenge her path to the White House. It's damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, if the ship sinks... I'll have a leg up in 2012.

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Sun Tzu

I have been looking around for information on this, but have not found anything specifically. So if anyone has heard anything, please share. Or even better if you have a link to something.

Does anyone know where Obama stands on the issue of Israel / Palestine? I heard Hillary flip-flop that so many times I don’t really know where she is at on that. I know exactly where McCain’s mindset is at on that subject.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Tully Mars

I'm lost. What information are you looking for?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Sun Tzu

What his views are on how to handle the situation there. Normally, I would say the U.S. really may not have such a say without the UN, but with the amount of aid given it changes things. (Speaking of aid; both weapons and $$$- what his views are on that as well)

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

robot_parade

Well, did you try here:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fo...licy/#onisrael

So, pretty pro-Israel - more pro-Israel sounding than would personally like, but considering the political climate here in the US, anything less would probably get one eaten alive.

Sun Tzu

Yeah I guess I missed it the first time going through his site. Thanks. I suppose its political suicide for any candidate to mention even handedness.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

robot_parade

Well, my hope is that it's possible to be evenhanded within the context of the views described on that website. A commitment to Isreal and recognition of their right to defend themselves doesn't preclude a commitment to Palestine and recognition of the Palestinian people's right to defend themselves. It also doesn't necessarily mean supporting Isreal's destructive policies - like the announcement today of new 'settlements', and the various well-documented atrocities committed by Isreal. :-/

OTOH, I may be reading to much into it, and Obama will be just as bad as our recent past presidents in this regard. Ultimately, we can't fix Isreal and Palestine's problem...both sides have to simultaneously realize that the blood of their children is worth more than land.

loquitur

The Times of London reported today on the bursting of the Obama bubble, and has articulated pretty much what I have been saying for months about Obama:

SecretMethod70

If Rezko and Wright are the best people can do at "exposing Obama's past," then I'm happy to see them do it. Both are complete non-issues.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

loquitur

That's fine, SM. If it's just a question of what issues you find relevant in making the choice, that's normal politics. All I was saying (maybe I wasn't clear) is that Obama is not something qualitatively different from other politicians, except for his charisma and speaking ability, which really are astoundingly good. In other respects he's just a garden variety big-city leftish pol - which is OK, because the city I live in is full of them, and they're nice people. But they're not anything special.

ratbastid

He's been off-message the last couple weeks, no question. He's said that the Wright business "shook him up" and pointed out how much he'd descended into infighting and campaigning-as-usual, and that had hurt his numbers. So I expect to see a return to the high-minded approach that struck such a chord with so many people a month or so back.

robot_parade

Predicting the political death of politicians is standard fare on a slow news day. Here's yet another Person From Obama's Past. We'll see how it plays out.

/me pines for an "Obama is my co-pilot" bumper sticker. I'll put it right next to the "Bush/Cheney '08" one that I also want to get. Why do I always want the bumper stickers that will get my ass kicked?

loquitur

I am not predicting Obama's political death. I'm just saying he is merely a politician - a very talented one, charismatic and clever, but still only a politician. He has baggage just like everyone else.

roachboy

again--you do you think you're surprising with this, loquitor? you've been stating the perfectly obvious over and over as if you've just descended from the Mount dressed like charlton heston.

seriously...this is a kind of "duh" point.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

loquitur

well, ok, roachboy. I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on this. I don't have anything against Obama - I kind of like him, actually - I just found a lot of the worship stuff to be creepy.

roachboy

i think the worship of public figures is creepy too------when i find it.

but i haven't found it amongst the obama supporters that i have talked to or have read stuff from.
i *did* see stuff couched in these terms on television--but who the hell thinks television infotainment is accurate?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

loquitur

dunno, buddy, those fainting women at the rallies was sort of a giveaway to me........

roachboy

buddy?

dense crowds, eh? like lots of people packed into a fairly small area?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

The cure for the handful of people who fainted at Obama rallys is pretty simple.

Chairs, water bottles and better ventilation in the rooms.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

I guess you missed the post a month ago where I mentioned having seen video of Hillary, McCain, AND Huckabee dealing with fainters in their audiences?

It's not about adulation. It's about having eaten breakfast that morning.

host

loquitur, I am still holding out hope that you have not been frequenting the right wing's <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Mighty+Wurlitzer%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=-1&oq=%22">"Mighty Wurlitzer"</a> kool-ade stand...

yer right, EVERYONE has "baggage":
Have you ever noticed loquitur....that white people are not asked about every obnoxious thing other white people have said and done? Why do you think that there is such a double standard practiced by those who get to ask the questions? How does the practice shape your POV?

Willravel

Obama's baggage is that his name is on the USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (3/2/06). Who the fuck cares about some random preacher? Jesus Christ, it's the blowjob and a cigar all over again...
... are we all really this stupid?

dc_dux

If I recall, Obama initially voted against the reauthorization of the Patriot Act in 2006 and only voted for the final version after he fought to include several provisions (restrictions on FBI use of national security letters and roving wiretaps) that were in a bill he cosponsored a year earlier, the Security and Freedom and Enhancement (SAFE) Act of 2005.

The Patriot Act is far from perfect, but it was going to pass by a large margin. I would suggest that Obama's provisions at least made it marginally better.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Yes, he did vote on the revised version, but it was still a horrible attack on freedoms (just slightly less than the 2005 version, clearly authored by Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rummy on a Jager bender). Wether it was slated to win or not, wouldn't it be the responsibility of a free thinking, intelligent man like Barak appears to be to vote against it?

dc_dux

will...there is a reason why we have had only one president go directly from the Senate to the White House in the last 100+ years...JFK.

Voting in the Senate is much more nuanced than say if you were a former governor who either signs a bill or vetos it.

Feingold's stance on the Patriot Act may have been more noble, but Obama's accomplished more.....it made a very bad bill slightly less bad.

Would you have prefered the version without the amendments Obama (and other Dems) forced into the bill?
There are two schools of thought....

* tale what you believe is the high ground and claim a moral victory....or
* take a more pragmatic approach and make the most out of a bad situation and accomplish something tangible

Personally, I think that while the first option is more ideologically pure, in some cases, the second option is more responsible.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

Should Oprah lose her TV show because she goes to a church the <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Mighty+Wurlitzer%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=-1&oq=%22">"Mighty Wurlitzer"</a> has under attack? She does fall under FCC regulatory oversight....

Why is Obama's opponent so adored by the media?

With his background, why does the media revere McCain instead of tarring him as ?????

SecretMethod70

No doubt, Obama is a politician. Though I do think it's disingenuous to say he's not any different besides his eloquence and charisma. He does seem much more willing to consider all sides of an issue than your typical US politician. And I could be wrong, but I don't know of many major national politicians, let alone presidential candidates, who can say they once taught constitutional law at one of the most prestigious law schools in the country.

Professor Obama was a listener, students say

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Host, Hillary is Obama's opponent for the time being. We're all hoping she'll pull out before the convention, so as not to screw up the Dem ticket for the White House any more than she already has.

But again, I don't think there are any McCain supporters on TFP. Maybe like one; two, tops. You'd be better off shooting down Hillary here and maybe Obama. Besides, I think McCain is incredibly corrupt and quite possibly is still suffering the effects of his imprisonment and torture. I don't need convincing.

ratbastid

Is baggage still baggage when everybody carries it? Because Clinton and McCain both voted YES on the PATRIOT re-auth too, and without the effort to improve it that Obama showed.

By the way--Obama will be holding a rally here in my home town (about five minutes away from where I live) on Wednesday. I'm going to go stand in line for tickets later this morning. Assuming I get in, loquitur, I'll let you know if I faint on first sight of my idol!

host

It took me much time to find on Obama's site that he is coming to Greensboro on 3/26. For most events, "tickets" can be ordered online, and they are free. Registration is required on the site's "events" page:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/myevents_login

I know his campaign considers Obama to be a "shoe in" victor for the nomination fight, but the ticketing and registration requirements remind me of another recent political campaign's policies. Why would Obama want to also have such a regimented image?

ratbastid

Well, space is finite in the venue he'll be in, and I imagine with security concerns, they want to do what they can to control attendance. I'm not holding this against him--it's being managed by the local Democratic Committee.

I'm not finding anywhere on his site to order tickets. Did you actually see that for this event?

host

He's a victim of his own popularity, but the SS admitted that they didn't screen for weapons, at least once, at an Obama venue last month. I want his campaign to be a breath of fresh are, compared to the regimented screening at the Bush/cheney 2004 campaign rallies....and I know you want the same.

In portland, or, tickets could be ordered online, but they went quickly.
http://or.barackobama.com/portland

If you're planning to go to this, I think this is your only option for tickets, and it might be that you have a better chance to actually get them, with this distribution arrangement:
http://nc.barackobama.com/greensboro

Willravel

Yes, absolutely. The mindset of "lesser of all evils" has people thinking the person who made the least mistakes deserves the oval office, but a mistake is a mistake.

Tully Mars

In 2004 I worked security at several events for Kerry Edwards in Oregon. Usually at Pioneer Square in down town Portland. And usually checking press passes. I volunteered for the Dems that year partly out of guilt for voting for GWB in 2000 and mainly in an attempt to stop/change the direction I felt the country was headed.

I was surprised at the lack of realistic security. I almost always worked the press entrance with at least one other person, sometimes two. Not once did that other person have any law enforcement back ground. We were briefed by SS to allow only print, radio and TV press, no web based press allowed. I turned away several individuals that had home made press passes exclaiming their affiliation with what was likely their own blog. I have serious reason to suspect my co-volunteers let everyone through. So, basically if you wanted to get close to Kerry or Edwards head to your local Kinkos.

I got an e-mail a couple weeks ago asking if I'd be willing to help out for Obama's visit last week. I updated my e-mail with them, but never explained I no longer live in Oregon. Kind of made me wish I was still in Oregon, would have liked to have been there.

On a side note- I notice Obama filled the old Memorial Coliseum, which holds about 10K. Kerry and Edwards filled the Pioneer Square which holds a few hundred (maybe a thousand?) I wonder if Obama could have filled the Rose Garden? It can hold 25K+.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dc_dux

will...I would suggest that making a pragmatic decision does not make a person a "lesser of evils."

__________________
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Willravel

I saw the movie "Exorcist: the Beginning" a few weeks ago. It's not a bad movie, fairly decent actually. Part of the origin story for the main character, a Priest who has had serious problems with his faith, is during his service to the church during the time when the SS was in it's height of power in Germany. A particularly sick soldier takes the priest outside in front of his church to see a group of people ranging from children to elder, all jewish. "Shoot one of them." After much shouting and threatening, he decides the prudent choice—the only choice—is to shoot the older people in order to save the young. It was a pragmatic choice, but it also made him a murderer. He had to compromise on his morals in order to make such a pragmatic choice, a choice that ultimately still left innocent people victimized by his actions. He was being bipartisan with monsters. You don't compromise with monsters.

A presidential man should not compromise with enemies of his people.

dc_dux

In war, there are enemies.

In public policy, there are adversaries.

A good politician and political leader can recognize the difference and act accordingly.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

I am struggling to decide if it would have been a better choice to attempt to shoot the "sick soldier", or myself, if I were the priest in the situation you described, or just to refuse to take the gun, and leave the choice of who to shoot, to the "sick soldier".....

Willravel

I don't consider the Bush Administration an adversary to the common good, but an enemy. I can't see how anyone could look on Bush and not see someone who actively works against freedom and peace and think "I could compromise with such a man".

Host, in taking the gun the priest became the tool of the sick soldier. I likely would have given my life fighting the soldier, on the small chance someone could have escaped. The idea that one can work for the monster but to dull his effect on his victims simply makes you a lesser monster.

MuadDib

I know it isn't relevant for the sake of this discussion, but in Exorcist: The Beginning, the priest doesn't actually shoot anyone. The Nazi makes him choose the ones that the soldier will kill or else he will just wantonly shoot away.

What is relevant is the underlying message throughout the movie. That the priest did not, in fact, become party to the Nazis evil because of his compromise but suffered because he let that compromise strip him of his faith. Actually, it was his very rigid ideology (i.e., A good God wouldn't allow this kind of evil to exist) that caused him to lose faith and led to suffering. The idea that a 'presidential' individual doesn't compromise with the enemies is ludicrous. First it begs the question, how are these enemies and what defines them as such? Second, the idea that these enemies are completely & entirely wrong/at-fault is egocentric nonsense. There is always room to compromise, even with our enemies. Certainly there are individual issues that shouldn't be compromised, but people/nations are not simply issue-vessels and there is always room to compromise with them.

Either way, if the issue is the significance of Barak's vote on the Reauthorization Act then I say it is significant to the campaign, as run, but not to me. I don't want a president whose willing to cast a losing vote that won't matter one way or another for ethical reasons when he/she could have cast the opposite vote after bartering for even a slightly better bargain that serves his constituents (assumedly people with similar ethical thinking). So as things went down here, I find something I like about Barak. However, his campaign is being run on a very ideological message and that sort of compromise can be damning to such a message. So ironically something I find reassuring about Barak may end up hurting him with his actual base. Then again I suppose it's not all that ironic considering my well-known support of Clinton.

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