06-23-2003, 07:29 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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Courts partially strikes down affirmative action
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personally, i think that it should've been struck down for both undergrad and grad levels. they shouldnt even ask for race on applications unless it's used ONLY for survey's. on the things not to ask list, add sex too. as a minority student (michigan only awards 20 pts to blacks and hispanics only, no other minorites.....) it's basically saying that you're not good enough to compete against other students, so we'll cut the corners for you. i personally would be ashamed of using affirmative action as the reason to get into college.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-23-2003, 07:40 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Super Agitator
Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A
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Damn! I find myself agreeing with the Dude! The 20 points they do allow is the largest single factor on their qualifying scale - It gives them a huge headstart. I am in no way saying that there should not be diversity. I agree whole heartedly with the President's view that the top 10% of every high school graduating class should have access to the state's colleges and universities - this would insure diversity because high school classes across a state represent the diversity of the state's population. Ability should be the factor that determines access and nothing else.
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06-23-2003, 07:50 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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bah, i'm not a big fan of the top 10% rule (although i am in the top 10% of my graduating class)
this story ran in the houston chronicle Quote:
cuz of the top 10% law, people more qualified are denied admission from the universities, which could be related to aff action.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-23-2003, 10:08 AM | #4 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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Re: Courts partially strikes down affirmative action
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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06-23-2003, 10:18 AM | #5 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia
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Re: Courts partially strikes down affirmative action
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06-23-2003, 10:59 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Re: Courts partially strikes down affirmative action
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However, recognizing that minority students haven't been prepared or have not had the same resources available to them as other, non-minority students does not denigrate one's personal achievements. No one has ever stated that I wasn't "good enough" to compete against other students; rather, there is an understanding that personal attention, one-on-one counseling and grooming, up to date computers and textbooks gives well-funded school students an advantage that inner-city youth will never have access to unless systemic changes occur. edit: the title of your thread is misleading. The Court was in majority support of affirmative action. 25 years ago only one Justice claimed race could be used as a factor. Now, 5 Justices found that race could be used as a factor but argued that the system in place was too blunt--they need to analyze each applicant indivually along with the ability to take race into consideration. Furthermore, they explicitly stated that this finding was only applicable to higher education. Last edited by smooth; 06-23-2003 at 11:31 AM.. |
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06-23-2003, 11:27 AM | #7 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i understand that. fix the problem at the roots. increase funding for those schools. but discriminating at the next level is not the solution to that.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
06-23-2003, 11:35 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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The_Dude, fixing the problem at "its roots" doesn't help the students applying today.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
06-23-2003, 11:39 AM | #9 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i dont get it.
so, the students from the situations you described are very unqualified. so, how would it benifit them if you put them in a top tier public university, which they are totally unprepared for? they're very likely to drop out or fail classes.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
06-23-2003, 12:02 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Read about the students qualifications--both the ones admitted and the ones denied. The admitted students were very qualified despite the disadvantages they had to navigate through (just like you and me have been able to achieve the top of our classes and nationwide standards despite the disadvantages we had to deal with). The non-admitted students were judged to be non-admittable despite the issue of race. Both, by the way, have gone on to pursue successful avenues in society. Where does this idea that only GPA and scores are the only criteria of success in graduate studies? The admissions counsel claimed (rightly so) that other factors should be considered to create a diverse pool of students. Some students were admitted because they played tennis well, some play the flute, some were black, some come from Nebraska, some come from a trailer park, all of these things comprise who a person is--what is his or her worldview--and are points of interest to an institution of higher education. Gender, race, socio-economic position, geographic origin, rural vs. urban setting are all components that one can voluntarily answer on an application. The school may decide that it has too many Indians, whites, males, heterosexual, or whatever and carefully craft its incoming cohort. This isn't about unqualified people being admitted. It's about the fact that a small percentage of various groups don't even apply to particular schools--mainly because they haven't been told of the existance of the school by a counselor or haven't been prepped by their high school. Of the ones who were applying, the University was awarding some points to account for the talent and achievment it took to get to that point. Before you ask it, white students are often awarded certain points for other things. For example, they awarded more points due to rigorous curriculum. Surprise, some students have AP classes while other, poorer students never had that option because their inner-city school didn't offer AP classes. |
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06-23-2003, 01:59 PM | #11 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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yes, white students are getting points awarded for extracurricular actvities.
arent those same points avaliable for minority students to earn also? black and hispanic students are awarded points just because of their race. are those points avaliable to white students?
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
06-23-2003, 03:53 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Conspiracy Realist
Location: The Event Horizon
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No need to repeat everything, I dont understand why any ground was given towards that direction. Equality is what its is; I dont understand how theres even an argument.
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06-23-2003, 04:40 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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First of all, obviously anyone involved in extra-curricular activities would have received points for their actions--that isn't even an issue that I raised. Secondly, no race is being awarded points--that's what was struck down in the Supreme Court. How does that extend to barring admission counselors from reviewing all the merits of an applicant, deciding they want some more black, Hispanic, or homosexual viewpoints in the incoming cohort and admit them on that basis? It doesn't and the ruling supports such decisions. Now get off it, two white students were not refused admission due to some requirement to allow two unqualified (or even less qualified) minority students in. Read the case. |
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06-23-2003, 07:42 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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That seems to be our disagreement then; I believe diversity creates the most qualified people.
My experience has been that my learning environment has been enhanced when I was a part of a diverse cohort.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
06-25-2003, 10:22 PM | #17 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: under the freeway bridge
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This decision seems just about right to me....
Diversity, racial or otherwise, greatly increases the richness of life. But I wonder if equality is really what people are after.......They dance around how to achieve an equality of opportunity and lament an inequality of outcome. The way I have seen the world work tells me that the next guy would stab you in the back if it would give him an advantage...... I can't think of a single time when someone gave up an advantage in....College admissions Golf Stock car racing Tiddly Winks Living to reproduce Evolution? Devolution? Minorities ( Pick One), Women, Homosexuals, White male office workers don't want equality....They want superiority, to be the top dog. That is what the fight is all about. "I'm poor" "I'm an oppressed underrepresented minority" " I'm a disaffected greaseball loser" Excuses.....C'mon Inner city kids don't know how to compete? Can't get prepared? Give them some credit.... White inner city kids deserve less consideration than minority kids because their country club cousins took all the spots. Now thats justice for ya....
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06-26-2003, 01:46 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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The problem we find with that view, however, is that it fails to recognize that qualitative factors are subjective. In this circumstance, students are attempting to analyze whether administrators should or should not use qualities they deem as relevant to increasing the quality of the learning environment they are creating--factors only they are qualified to ascertain. At the graduate level, as is the case of the law school, cohort interation creates the learning environment--not merely (one could argue, least of all) the professors. That doesn't even address the ramifications of allowing a court to gainsay the educators' expertise nor does it touch the ridiculousness of laypersons arguing against the positions of numerous experts on the subject. I need to point out my position is that the most intelligent people in our country are at the helm of our intellectual institutions; one would hope so, anyway, seeing as we are arguing over one's right to learn from those people. I've read the evidence for their position (and I've probably written some of it) and, as a social scientist, I both believe it to be strong and support it. If you aren't aware of the strong scientific evidence in support of Bollinger's position I believe you have an obligation to avail yourself of it before reaching a final conclusion. IIRC, you are some sort of poli-sci major? You might remember a study out of--could be Harvard business--regarding X and O interaction. If you don't know what I'm talking about then let me know and I'll pull it out of my book. You can also ask some people in business managment or theory of organizations courses. |
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06-26-2003, 02:00 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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06-26-2003, 11:45 AM | #20 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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fine, dont just look @ raw scores.
look @ something that anyone of any race has a chance to earn. like extra curricular stuff, volunteering, projects started, awards earned...anything like that. a black kid and a white kid has equal chance of earning those credits. but, a white kid doesnt have the oppurtuinity to become black
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
06-26-2003, 12:01 PM | #21 (permalink) |
Modern Man
Location: West Michigan
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Affirmative Action is like a band-aid over cancer. It might make you feel good for a while, but the cancer is still consuming you. Hate from Fear is the problem and it takes a long time to evolve out of it. It gets better with each decade, but sadly it takes time. Affirmative Action via a point system, that was struck down, helps the short term but can possibly slow down the long term causing more resentment.
Equal rights have no place for "pay-backs" or "reparations" or "revenge". If someone is arguing that a minority should have more rights because of historical oppression, then don't argue behind equal rights, because that isn't what you are after. Its a slippery slope. I am generally pleased with the Supreme Court's split decision.
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06-26-2003, 04:54 PM | #22 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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You are arguing against a moot point--the 20 extra points has already been eliminated. No one here is arguing in support of that system. |
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