Yes or No to New FBI Plan to Scan Your Eyes & Collect Your Body Features - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 02-05-2008, 03:18 AM

Does anyone support this proposal, why? I have to agree with those quoted in the article who voiced privacy concerns and potential for government abuse related to collection and distribution of this information. If I have not been convicted of a serious crime, why would intimate details about scars and other markings on my body, be any of the government's business?

They already examine and record data on people who they hold in their custody, so what is the legitimate purpose of this ambitious expansion, vs. our constitutional rights? Aren't fingerprint record a lot less intrusive and anonymous, considering that they comprise a record nothing like a database that would contain images and locations of scars and tattoos?

Isn't this, if it is implemented, one of the final steps in the development of a total police state in the US?

Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/02/04/f...ics/index.html
<h3>FBI wants palm prints, eye scans, tattoo mapping</h3>
From Kelli Arena and Carol Cratty
February 4, 2008
CNN

CLARKSBURG, West Virginia (CNN) -- The FBI is gearing up to create a massive computer database of people's physical characteristics, all part of an effort the bureau says to better identify criminals and terrorists.

But it's an issue that raises major privacy concerns -- what one civil liberties expert says should concern all Americans.

The bureau is expected to announce in coming days the awarding of a $1 billion, 10-year contract to help create the database that will compile an array of biometric information -- from palm prints to eye scans.

Kimberly Del Greco, the FBI's Biometric Services section chief, said adding to the database is "important to protect the borders to keep the terrorists out, protect our citizens, our neighbors, our children so they can have good jobs, and have a safe country to live in."

But it's unnerving to privacy experts.

"It's the beginning of the surveillance society where you can be tracked anywhere, any time and all your movements, and eventually all your activities will be tracked and noted and correlated," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Technology and Liberty Project.

The FBI already has 55 million sets of fingerprints on file. In coming years, the bureau wants to compare palm prints, scars and tattoos, iris eye patterns, and facial shapes. The idea is to combine various pieces of biometric information to positively identify a potential suspect.

A lot will depend on how quickly technology is perfected, according to Thomas Bush, the FBI official in charge of the Clarksburg, West Virginia, facility where the FBI houses its current fingerprint database. Watch what the FBI hopes to gain »

"Fingerprints will still be the big player," Bush, assistant director of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division, told CNN.

But he added, "Whatever the biometric that comes down the road, we need to be able to plug that in and play."

First up, he said, are palm prints. The FBI has already begun collecting images and hopes to soon use these as an additional means of making identifications. Countries that are already using such images find 20 percent of their positive matches come from latent palm prints left at crime scenes, the FBI's Bush said.

The FBI has also started collecting mug shots and pictures of scars and tattoos. These images are being stored for now as the technology is fine-tuned. All of the FBI's biometric data is stored on computers 30-feet underground in the Clarksburg facility.

In addition, the FBI could soon start comparing people's eyes -- specifically the iris, or the colored part of an eye -- as part of its new biometrics program called Next Generation Identification.

Nearby, at West Virginia University's Center for Identification Technology Research, researchers are already testing some of these technologies that will ultimately be used by the FBI.

"The best increase in accuracy will come from fusing different biometrics together," said Bojan Cukic, the co-director of the center.

But while law enforcement officials are excited about the possibilities of these new technologies, privacy advocates are upset the FBI will be collecting so much personal information.

"People who don't think mistakes are going to be made I don't think fly enough," said Steinhardt.

He said thousands of mistakes have been made with the use of the so-called no-fly lists at airports -- and that giving law enforcement widespread data collection techniques should cause major privacy alarms.

"There are real consequences to people," Steinhardt said. Watch concerns over more data collection »

You don't have to be a criminal or a terrorist to be checked against the database. More than 55 percent of the checks the FBI runs involve criminal background checks for people applying for sensitive jobs in government or jobs working with vulnerable people such as children and the elderly, according to the FBI.

The FBI says it hasn't been saving the fingerprints for those checks, but that may change. The FBI plans a so-called "rap-back" service in which an employer could ask the FBI to keep the prints for an employee on file and let the employer know if the person ever has a brush with the law. The FBI says it will first have to clear hurdles with state privacy laws, and people would have to sign waivers allowing their information to be kept.

Critics say people are being forced to give up too much personal information. But Lawrence Hornak, the co-director of the research center at West Virginia University, said it could actually enhance people's privacy.

"It allows you to project your identity as being you," said Hornak. "And it allows people to avoid identity theft, things of that nature." Watch Hornak describe why he thinks it's a "privacy enhancer" »

There remains the question of how reliable these new biometric technologies will be. A 2006 German study looking at facial recognition in a crowded train station found successful matches could be made 60 percent of the time during the day. But when lighting conditions worsened at night, the results shrank to a success rate of 10 to 20 percent.

As work on these technologies continues, researchers are quick to admit what's proven to be the most accurate so far. "Iris technology is perceived today, together with fingerprints, to be the most accurate," said Cukic.

But in the future all kinds of methods may be employed. Some researchers are looking at the way people walk as a possible additional means of identification.

The FBI says it will protect all this personal data and only collect information on criminals and those seeking sensitive jobs.

The ACLU's Steinhardt doesn't believe it will stop there.

"This had started out being a program to track or identify criminals," he said. "Now we're talking about large swaths of the population -- workers, volunteers in youth programs. Eventually, it's going to be everybody."

dksuddeth · 02-05-2008, 06:15 AM

maybe someday, the majority of people will have the light bulb come on in their head and they will see that the government is not their friend. Until then, most people will still be sheep.

Tully Mars · 02-05-2008, 06:43 AM

I read this and my first thought was of the German priest who said (basically, I know I'm trashing the quote) "When they cam for the Jews I didn't say anything, I wasn't Jewish. When they came for the communists I didn't say anything, I wasn't a communist. When they came for the trade unions I didn't say anything, I wasn't in a trade union. Then they came for me and they was no one left to say anything.

Even if this is a completely legit attempt to gather info in an effort to fight crime and terrorism. I worry what it might morph into in the future.

Fotzlid · 02-05-2008, 06:55 AM

They started doing this years ago. Kids have been fingerprinted at schools for years now under the guise that they can be ID'd easier if they go missing for some reason. The FBI doesn't have to go after adults, just get the kids for the palm prints and iris scans. The tatoo mapping will come as they get picked up for whatever when they get older or if they apply for a government job. From there its only a matter of time before multi-national corporations will collect that for their security purposes. The next step would be cheap scanners so all business' can afford it.
People already put microchips in their pets. I see a time when parents do the same for the kids so they can keep track of them easier on the home GPS.
Eventually, everyone will be tagged. I think its inevitable.

Ustwo · 02-05-2008, 06:59 AM

So you know where I'm coming from on this, I'm someone who resents them forcing us to use the 'ipass' in Illinois to use the tollway unless you pay insane fees to use the cash lane due to the ability to track where you have been when. I'm sure it will be used for speeding tickets in the not so far future.

This I see in most ways as less of an issue.

You are who you are, the government knows who you are. I'm not sure how a fingerprint is ok but a retina scan is not. Either you accept that the government is an intrusive part of your life or you don't. There really isn't a middle ground.

Fotzlid · 02-05-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

So you know where I'm coming from on this, I'm someone who resents them forcing us to use the 'ipass' in Illinois to use the tollway unless you pay insane fees to use the cash lane due to the ability to track where you have been when. I'm sure it will be used for speeding tickets in the not so far future.

Thats a good example of what I tried to say. The government will come at you from a thousand different directions to gather that info. Eventually, there will be something you need or want badly enough that you will submit to the scans or whatever.
They already have me on file somewhere. I had to get fingerprinted for a job about 20 years ago. My current job has a few of my fingerprints in their data base. The medication machine uses a fingerprint scanner as a password.
They will get you one way or the other.

pr0f3n · 02-05-2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I read this and my first thought was of the German priest who said (basically, I know I'm trashing the quote) "When they cam for the Jews I didn't say anything, I wasn't Jewish. When they came for the communists I didn't say anything, I wasn't a communist. When they came for the trade unions I didn't say anything, I wasn't in a trade union. Then they came for me and they was no one left to say anything.

Damn, a Godwin in the second post?

There's a difference between anonymity and privacy. Given the track record of false ID's through fingerprints, it's a good thing that the FBI is attempting to modernize with a focus toward more comprehensive and distinguishing characteristics. I am sure this will have abuses and misuses, but at least they're trying to improve the way they do their jobs.

reconmike · 02-05-2008, 06:11 PM

Big deal, the FBI has my fingerprints when I recieved my security clearence in the Marines, my local police dept. has them when I got CCW permit along with a tatoo and scar map.

So what, I am not a criminal, nor a terrorist, what the hell could they possibly use them against me for?

I think people who run from the government, or have things to hide should be the ones worried.

Willravel · 02-05-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike

I am not a criminal, nor a terrorist, what the hell could they possibly use them against me for?

I am not a criminal, nor a terrorist, why the hell could would they possibly need them?

Sorry, but the loss of privacy being excused by "well I'm not doing anything wrong" is totally backwards. I'm not doing anything wrong, therefore I should be spied upon? Give me a break. The way it should be: I don't do anything wrong, therefore they don't spy on me.

Plan9 · 02-05-2008, 06:34 PM

So, where is the selection option for those of us who the DoD has already processed ala 1984? My DNA is on file somewhere.

Elphaba · 02-05-2008, 06:35 PM

I would like to see the FBI repair their poor internal and external security communications first. If (and that is a big 'IF') they can receive critical and urgent information from a regional office (yes, I hold a 911 grudge against the FBI) and are able to interact immediately with a world wide police effort in counteracting an identified terrorist threat, I'll think about whether a scan of my baby blues is a good use of tax dollars.

The FBI and the rest of our security services need to clean up their act, before I give them something else to do poorly.

fastom · 02-05-2008, 07:17 PM

911? They had no problem coming up with names for the 19 hijackers very quickly and they didn't have fingerprints and eye scans to go on did they?

Willravel · 02-05-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

911? They had no problem coming up with names for the 19 hijackers very quickly and they didn't have fingerprints and eye scans to go on did they?

Heh, well played.

reconmike · 02-05-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I am not a criminal, nor a terrorist, why the hell could would they possibly need them?

Sorry, but the loss of privacy being excused by "well I'm not doing anything wrong" is totally backwards. I'm not doing anything wrong, therefore I should be spied upon? Give me a break. The way it should be: I don't do anything wrong, therefore they don't spy on me.

I would like to know how they will spy on me having identifing marks, fingerprints, or anything else that identfies me on file?

I would rather be indentified properly by those who need to know who I am, than have them hold me until it gets figured out.

I was once returning from a long vaction, coming through customs, when I was stopped because someone with the same name as me was wanted on a federal murder warrant, it was nice that I could prove who I was with a DoD retired card, SS card and a DL. If they wanted to see the mole on my ass, or my tats I would have willingly showed them.

Who are you to say the "way" it should be? Have any facts and 10,000 links to back up that POV?

Willravel · 02-05-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike

I would like to know how they will spy on me having identifing marks, fingerprints, or anything else that identfies me on file?

That is the spying. Having personal information on me despite the fact that I'm not being investigated for anything is an invasion of privacy.

Fotzlid · 02-05-2008, 08:34 PM

Privacy is an illusion. It doesn't exist.

dc_dux · 02-05-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

Privacy is an illusion. It doesn't exist.

Civil liberties still exist.

The issue goes beyond the FBI collecting the data.....to how they would use the data.

MSD · 02-06-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pr0f3n

Damn, a Godwin in the second post?

Funny how people have such selective memory. The half that people conveniently forget is that simply invoking Godwin's law is as bad as making inappropriate comparisons.

There's also the fact that no matter how appropriate a comparison is, someone will always complain about it. If someone was actually rounding up and killing Jews, half of the Internet would probably be screaming "Godwin! it's not like Hitler, he's not using Zyklon B!"

ottopilot · 02-06-2008, 06:13 AM

I'm completely against these measures. On a related topic, there are people eagerly volunteering in test groups to have identity chips implanted in their arms for ease of credit scanning at the checkout lane. Insane!

Like some primitives regarding mirrors and cameras, I'll claim that retinal and body scans are stealing my soul. That sounds about right.

View Poll Results: Yes or No to New FBI Plan to Scan Your Eyes & Collect Your Body Features
Yes, I support the FBI's attempt to gather and maintain these records	2	8.00%
No, I am not in favor of the gathering of this info by the FBI	23	92.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

02-05-2008, 06:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	maybe someday, the majority of people will have the light bulb come on in their head and they will see that the government is not their friend. Until then, most people will still be sheep. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

02-05-2008, 06:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I read this and my first thought was of the German priest who said (basically, I know I'm trashing the quote) "When they cam for the Jews I didn't say anything, I wasn't Jewish. When they came for the communists I didn't say anything, I wasn't a communist. When they came for the trade unions I didn't say anything, I wasn't in a trade union. Then they came for me and they was no one left to say anything. Even if this is a completely legit attempt to gather info in an effort to fight crime and terrorism. I worry what it might morph into in the future. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

02-05-2008, 06:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Fotzlid Junkie Location: Greater Boston area	They started doing this years ago. Kids have been fingerprinted at schools for years now under the guise that they can be ID'd easier if they go missing for some reason. The FBI doesn't have to go after adults, just get the kids for the palm prints and iris scans. The tatoo mapping will come as they get picked up for whatever when they get older or if they apply for a government job. From there its only a matter of time before multi-national corporations will collect that for their security purposes. The next step would be cheap scanners so all business' can afford it. People already put microchips in their pets. I see a time when parents do the same for the kids so they can keep track of them easier on the home GPS. Eventually, everyone will be tagged. I think its inevitable. Last edited by Fotzlid; 02-05-2008 at 07:00 AM..

02-05-2008, 06:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So you know where I'm coming from on this, I'm someone who resents them forcing us to use the 'ipass' in Illinois to use the tollway unless you pay insane fees to use the cash lane due to the ability to track where you have been when. I'm sure it will be used for speeding tickets in the not so far future. This I see in most ways as less of an issue. You are who you are, the government knows who you are. I'm not sure how a fingerprint is ok but a retina scan is not. Either you accept that the government is an intrusive part of your life or you don't. There really isn't a middle ground. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

02-05-2008, 06:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	Big deal, the FBI has my fingerprints when I recieved my security clearence in the Marines, my local police dept. has them when I got CCW permit along with a tatoo and scar map. So what, I am not a criminal, nor a terrorist, what the hell could they possibly use them against me for? I think people who run from the government, or have things to hide should be the ones worried. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

02-05-2008, 06:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	So, where is the selection option for those of us who the DoD has already processed ala 1984? My DNA is on file somewhere. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

02-05-2008, 06:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I would like to see the FBI repair their poor internal and external security communications first. If (and that is a big 'IF') they can receive critical and urgent information from a regional office (yes, I hold a 911 grudge against the FBI) and are able to interact immediately with a world wide police effort in counteracting an identified terrorist threat, I'll think about whether a scan of my baby blues is a good use of tax dollars. The FBI and the rest of our security services need to clean up their act, before I give them something else to do poorly. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

02-05-2008, 07:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	911? They had no problem coming up with names for the 19 hijackers very quickly and they didn't have fingerprints and eye scans to go on did they?

02-05-2008, 08:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
Fotzlid Junkie Location: Greater Boston area	Privacy is an illusion. It doesn't exist.

02-06-2008, 06:13 AM	#19 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	I'm completely against these measures. On a related topic, there are people eagerly volunteering in test groups to have identity chips implanted in their arms for ease of credit scanning at the checkout lane. Insane! Like some primitives regarding mirrors and cameras, I'll claim that retinal and body scans are stealing my soul. That sounds about right. __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo Last edited by ottopilot; 02-06-2008 at 06:16 AM..