Seaver

You're right, I have no idea what it's like to have a vagina.

However, I DO have a penis and I know that latex feels a lot different than a vagina.

I also have many female friends who openly talk about these sort of things and all of them to a T can feel the difference themselves. (they prefer the real thing)

You're right, I don't have a vagina. But the feel of skin and latex are very different, especially in such a sensitive area.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Willravel

It takes a big man to admit that.

Elphaba

Did I influence your emotion or anyone else here? I honestly don't think so.

It takes more than your perception of my post to make it a logical fallacy. Granted, Bill O'Reilly gets away with that sort of claim every day, *and* there are more thoughtful members participating in this thread that would never allow a self-serving boo-hoo go unchallenged, by me or anyone else.

I can only repeat, once again, that I don't find the plight of the father under any number of circumstances worthy of forcing a woman to carry a child to term. That is the bottom line that your argument, isn't it?

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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

FoolThemAll

Nah. As foolish as it might be to 'ruin' two lives, it's a lot more foolish to murder one life.

Yes, a fetus taking care of itself would be a miracle.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

I have to say that i'm liking the crompsin angle here.

I don't think that a man should be able to compel a woman to have a child. Pregnancy is often a very complicated thing, and there are always risks. At what point do potential risks to the woman's life take precedence over a man's desire to have a child with an unwilling partner? Does the man get to tell the woman what she can and can't ingest during the pregnancy? There are ways to encourage a miscarriage. It just doesn't seem like a very reasonable position to take when exposed to the harsh light of speculation. It's an understandable perspective if you take away the whole historical context of male dominance, but with context firmly in place it seems kind of gross.

It would make much more sense to me if the father could opt out as some sort of analog to abortion. Even that would be a can of worms.

Life ain't fair. Biology doesn't favor male choice when it comes to the growth of a fetus, them's the breaks. You might as well be advocating for some sort of legal remedy for the size differences between men and women.

Plan9

... and I say it isn't murder if they aren't sucking on a delicious booby yet!

You assume I define the following: fetus = person. Turns out? I don't.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

So I'm only alive maybe twice a week?!

JumpinJesus

Why are fathers compelled to take care of an unwanted child? Because we've yet to reach the point in our society where we tell a newborn, "Fuck you, go get a job and buy your own damn dinner." We're getting there, but we aren't there yet.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

FoolThemAll

And there's the almost-inevitable stalemate. (Not really over person, though, that's a legal term. That fact can be changed by the stroke of a pen.)

I don't understand how it couldn't be considered a human being. Presumably, you don't understand how it could be. To me, nine months of normal mobility and health is easily not as important as that unborn child. To you, nine months of normal mobility and health is easily more important than that clump of cells.

And it comes down to your "you're unjustly imposing your will on another human being" versus my "I'm responding to the unjust imposition of one will on another human being".

That's the script, right? Just figured I'd lay it out and save some time. But let me know if I'm missing/misunderstanding something of your position.

(p.s. - not to you - 'QFT' is a pretty childish toy to use in a contentious and unsettled debate like this.)

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Plan9

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

This thread is about father's rights.

PonyPotato

How about "quoted for agreement" then? You could at least address who you're referring to or address your complaint directly to me.

I also don't believe that life begins at conception. I believe life begins at birth. I also refer to "pro-life" as "anti-choice" because that's the way I see things. But this thread wasn't started to debate whether abortion is murder or not, it's about discussing paternal rights or lack thereof.

Watch me be childish again, since I find this cartoon amusing (and yes, it was drawn to be offensive):

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

mixedmedia

Maybe for you it is...doesn't seem to be so for others.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

I'm the thread starter. I authored the OP.

Plan9

It ain't fair. Pro-life or pro-abortion? Same clown car of rusty nails.

Pro-Abortion: Does daddy get a chance to murder babies too?

Pro-Life: Does daddy get a chance to bring another illegitimate bastard into the world?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

JumpinJesus

Trying to keep any thread about abortion on topic is about as futile as resisting the Borg.

Give it up, will. I know you desperately want to keep this under control, but you can't start a thread like this and expect to be its daddy for more than 5 posts.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

mixedmedia

I'm quite aware that you authored the OP. I'm just making an observation regarding the obvious.

I think there is little chance this subject can be discussed without constant interjection from folks with an agenda.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

FoolThemAll

Laziness and a slow connection on my part, that's all.

It's pretty unavoidably tied in. My response to the OP wouldn't make much sense without that part.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Ustwo

It should be rather obvious that fathers rights and liberal are not compatible concepts, at least as it applies to the unborn.

What I said in my first post is all that needed to be said on this issue. As soon as you give a father ANY rights prior to birth you negate the core arguments of the pro-abortion crowd.

There can never be a compromise in this without calling abortion itself into question.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

Will, this can't be just a discussion of father's rights. Implicitly in what you're proposing is some sort of limitation of the right for human beings to have sovereignty over what goes on with their bodies.

Father's rights don't exist for unborn children, and i would argue that they probably shouldn't for the simple fact that any sort of laws protecting them would be necessarily over reaching and also necessarily unenforceable. Women have been known to risk death to have an abortion, what makes you think that some vague notion of responsibility to the father would mean all that much?

Infinite_Loser

And yet again, I find myself asking this question to the pro-abortion crowd: Why, oh why, are you having sex if you can't deal with the possibility of becoming pregnant? It's not differential calculus, nor is it a terribly hard question to answer, so I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind your actions.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

Psst.... I'm a liberal. Just sayin.

Plan9

Are you even human?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

filtherton

Another interesting question: If you are against abortion, especially when it comes to your own potential children, why oh why are you having sex with someone who would abort your child?

Plan9

Rumor has Homo sapiens engaging in intercourse for pleasure.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

PonyPotato

Contraceptives (especially if two methods are used at once) are proven to be pretty darn effective these days, though "accidents" still occur.

I suppose the difference is in the way some people will choose to "deal" with the possibility of becoming pregnant. For me, if birth control fails before I am financially, emotionally, and relationship-ally prepared for a child, abortion is an option. That doesn't mean becoming a single parent or adoption isn't an option for me or for anyone else, it is situationally dependent.

p.s. Sex is fun.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

FoolThemAll

Don't know if this was meant to be serious or not, but it's very possible to be convinced that one's spouse/lover is incapable of seeking abortion and to be wrong about that. Isn't there supposedly some trend of conservative Christian women having secret abortions?

Of course, if you knew they considered abortion a viable option, then yeah, that's pretty dumb.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

I thought it was for the moral dilemmas inherent in unplanned pregnancy. I guess i've been doing it wrong.

It was serious, and i was thinking something along the same lines as what you wrote terms of a reasonable answer. I just think that it is very possible to be convinced that one's spouse/lover is incapable getting knocked up and be wrong about that. Both positions are essentially the result of ignorance.

The question wasn't about abortion or father's rights necessarily- it was more about this sort of smug, superficial appeal to personal responsibility that often comes up in abortion talks.

FoolThemAll

I would say that they're both the result of misplaced or excessive trust, which at the same time can be reasonable trust.

Either way, I'm not interested in punishing poor decisions. What I am interested in is this: preventing an attempted escape from the naturally possible consequences of those poor decisions when the chosen means of escape is murder. And we're right back to the stalemate...

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Infinite_Loser

Yes, I am am and no, I wouldn't be having sex if I couldn't deal with the consequences of those actions. Just because you've got the self-control of a rabbit doesn't give you free reign to do as you wish. If you're engaging in an action which you know can have negative consequences, but you do so anyway without regards to those consequences, then you're what we'd like to call irresponsible.

Unless there's a giant, flashing neon sign above her head which says "Liable to abort your child!", there's really no way of knowing. You know?

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

PonyPotato

How do you feel about contraception? Birth control pills, condom use, spermicides, Plan B? Is it being irresponsible to have sex when you use at least one method or combine multiple methods to avoid pregnancy when you're not ready for it?

And, directing that back to the original topic.. should a father's rights change based on whether contraceptives were used? If so, does it depend on what kind of contraceptive or which party was "responsible" for it (i.e. whether a woman took the pill improperly or a man didn't check a condom for breakage)?

And as for knowing whether someone would abort your child or not.. discussing that before unprotected sex is important. Hell, discussing that before using one contraceptive method on its own is important. Honesty goes hand-in-hand with maturity.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Infinite_Loser

I've no problems with contraceptives. They're there for a reason. Ironically enough, though, the number of abortions performed per year due to a 'purported' failure in contraceptives is significantly higher than the actual fail rate of contraceptives, which means that people are either 1.) Not using them and saying they did or 2.) Not using them correctly.

...But I digress.

Anywho, here's the kicker about abortion. It doesn't matter what was said prior to sexual intercourse. If a woman gets pregnant and wants the baby while the man doesn't, the man is forced to be a father. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to baby while the man does, he's SOL. Now, unless you're completely engrossed in your own biases, surely you see something wrong with that situation.

Hence why I like extending the "If-you-don't-want-a-kid-then-keep-your-pants-closed" mentality onto women.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ustwo

And look who is on your side in this thread and who is'nt, just saying.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Hey, gun toting Crompsin thinks that I'm wrong. It's not just a liberal vs. conservative discussion.

PonyPotato

I feel that more is wrong with a man being forced to be a father than with a man being SOL because a woman doesn't want to bear his child. I think I stated earlier that in my ideal world, children would only be brought into it when they are wanted and will be supported by both parents. I would personally never raise a child alone.

How does adoption enter into this? What if the woman is willing to carry the child to term, but then wants to give it up for adoption? Should the father get dibs on adopting the baby first if he wants it?

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Ustwo

He's hardly a conservative, no, its a liberal vrs conservative discussion.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

PonyPotato

I'd argue that it's a liberal stance vs. conservative stance discussion on the abortion issue alone.

Or pro-choice vs. anti-choice.

Or pro-abortion vs. pro-life.

Whichever way you want to put it.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Willravel

So I'm a conservative? A socialist, Kucinich supporting, anti-gun, Bush-bashing conservative?

filtherton

I guess if you want to be careless and take that risk...

It's not fair, but unless you're completely engrossed in your own biases you'd see that most things in life aren't. There's only so much good complaining can do, especially when there aren't necessarily any viable alternatives (besides outlawing abortion, which wouldn't necessarily do anything anyway).

Clearly, especially since you're advocating a position which sharply diverges from the status quo in a novel way. Definitely a conservative.

You voting huckabee or giuliani?

host

RE: Your post # 75....
This thread was predicated (I think....) on an issue revolving around "fairness"....is it fair that women have so much more control (total)over the decision to bear a child, or not....and a man who has sperm "invested" in a given set of circumstances, is financially liable, or not....due to decisions beyond his control, made by a woman who hosts a pregnancy and delivers a resulting child. This same man, legally compelled to provide support for a child brought into the world by a woman who decided for both parents, to complete a pregnancy and give birth, has no legal means to prevent a woman from deciding to do the opposite....to terminate the pregnancy.

Ironically, in FoolThemAll's response to my comment, is the opposite sentiment of the "fairness", that willravel seems to be seeking in this thread's OP. FoolThemAll wants to see his view of what a recently impregnated woman's legal and safe choices should be, if she decides to attempt to terminate her pregnancy, affect as many women in as many jurisdictions as possible, even if it disproportionally burdensome, or "unfair", to the least wealthy in these jurisdictions.

I see it as an agenda to impose a set of restrictions to "save unborn babies", and if it only traps the poorest women, the ones with the least options, due to their poverty that tends to "lock them down", unable to travel to an unaffected jusrisdiction to then pay a fee to safely and legally end an unwanted pregnancy, so be it, because it is not about fairness to women, or to men involved at all.

It is a mindset that seems to run this way:
"As long as we restrict a "bunch of them", from access to safe, legal, clinical abortion, we are not concerned that women with wealth can put themselves beyond our capabilities to block clinical abortion and other reproductive health services, from the "least of us", in our society".

It is a mindset that seems to me, to be...."Un-American", and I saw it similarly in FoolThemAll's statement, quoted above:
....so you have one side of the argument this thread's topic has evloved into, who make it plain that they are not about "fairness" or "consistency", they are about imposing their restrictions on the most women, possible.

So, why are they even participating on this thread? There is a thread on this forum where a discussion closer to their take on this can be resumed:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=82025

In fact, I am going there, now.....