Rekna

If you chose to go to school why should I subsidize your education? If you have children why should I pay for their public school? If you drive a car why should I subsidize your gas? If I don't drive why should I have to pay for roads?

It's taxes, deal with it.

Do you really view unborn babies as parasites? I'm sorry but that is a very bad comparison and i'm sure most people would agree that an unborn baby is not a parasite.

Willravel

A woman is clearly not responsible, then, but a man is. If a woman were responsible, she would have to keep the child (mind you this has everything to do with responsibility and nothing to do with pro-life/pro-choice).

If you were to get in an accident with your car and said "My car, my choice", would you be acting in a way that's responsible or not?
Continuation of the species is hardly metaphorical.
If you are pregnant with a child your body will generally expel it from your body in a natural process.

pr0f3n

Most people agree there's some sort of divine interventional agent in their lives too. It takes all kinds, thank god for science.

A man is responsible for his insemination. A woman gets to chose. Double standard.

False analogies don't help the conversation.

That's not what I said. I said calling it symbiotic is metaphorical, because gestation isn't an assurance of that outcome, it's contributory, correlative.



Yet you can chose to circumvent that process through a variety of methods.

__________________
In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Willravel

Science... like sociology, anthropology and evolution, all of which put massive importance on the innate want for the continuation of the species being necessary? Thank god for science, indeed.
Gestation of a fetus is not just contributory to propagation, it IS propagation.

pr0f3n

We've managed to eliminate so many natural selectors that the morality of a positive or even zero population growth is debatable. The innate want is why we need abortions in the first place. Our inability to address our biology in an honest manner leaves so many people unprepared for the consequences of their actions. That and our backwards attitudes towards contraception.

That's a very limited use of the word. Propagation is a process that requires the adults stay healthy to care for the child, and the child to stay healthy enough to mature and reproduce. Making babies is not the be all end all.

__________________
In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
Friedrich Nietzsche

jewels

It has everything to do with pro-choice/anti-abortion (we pro-choicers are pro-life, too, ya know) -- how responsible would it be for a young woman to keep a baby when she can't even provide for herself?

It can't always be about equity/equality. The priority should be geared to protect the interest of that potential baby.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Willravel

Morality is not science. We were talking about science, remember?
I didn't say it was the end all, but it's the genesis and without it there is no propagation.
The father could be responsible, assuming he's willing and able. That's the point. Just because the mother doesn't want the baby doesn't mean the father doesn't. And just because the mother has to spend 9 months taking responsibility for her knowing actions doesn't mean that the father shouldn't have any say whatsoever. I may not agree with abortion, but I think I understand it. It's a bizarre combination of responsibility (understanding that one cannot care for the child) and irresponsibility (I fucked someone even though I shouldn't have).
Hypothetically, which would you consider is the best interest:
1) Abortion
2) A loving father

BTW, I like your avatar.

Seaver

The end story is right now women in the reproductive rights have a monopoly.

The double standard is the only one in which feminists have not attacked, relying now on the exact same social constructs which they have everywhere else torn down and been made politically incorrect simply because it is one major area which works in their favor.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

pr0f3n

Morality has a place in science, in fact it often guides and motivates science. I'd be over the moon if they could perfect contraception or develop reversible sterilizations. There's no true need for them but it's a morally optimal solution.

So we're back to what I said in the first place, it's correlative to, but not synonymous with, propagation, and not a reciprocal benefit of gestation.

__________________
In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
Friedrich Nietzsche

jewels

How could I not agree with a loving father? :warm-n-fuzzy: Will you co-sign for that young father who thinks he wants a baby but realizes he can't handle the responsibility once he has it? Then you'll be there for him, ya?

The avatar: Thank you. Daughter E took the picture of daughter A. Don't tell Admin they're minors.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Rekna

Because every loving father clearly can't provide for his kid.

We should really stop catering to the exception....

Willravel

Not everyone will be a perfect parent, but to be perfectly honest that's never been something that has prevented people from trying. I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
My lips are sealed. Oh god, now they've gone!

Infinite_Loser

Personally, I'm in favor of extending the "Keep-your-legs-closed-if-you-don't-want-to-have-a-baby" mentality onto women.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Elphaba

Will, I am sure you know that before the Roe v. Wade decision each state legislated abortion as they saw fit. During that time some states did require the approval of the husband for a woman to have an abortion. The father's rights issues that we are discussing now, were the norm at one time and I believe returning to that position would have negative consequences far greater than what you are suggesting a man now has.

Allow me to offer a personal experience, as briefly as possible:
- Elph believes she is pregnant
- Elph is afraid of her husband
- Mr. Elph would like to *cement* the marriage with a child

Now run with all the various ways a scenario of that kind can play out and let me know if you come up with a positive outcome, when Mr. Elph legally calls the shots.

It's just one example of the many I know of prior to Roe v. Wade. "My body, my choice" is not something to toss aside for "my sperm, my choice."

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Willravel

Assuming the woman's fear extends to a rational urge to leave and get away, the male would not be in a situation to have consensual sexual relations with the woman. This would mean that she would not become pregnant and thus the concern over a male's rights to an unborn child don't apply.

I'm not intending to be disrespectful, but this thread is about consensual sex between two adults where no prophylactic is used (a vast majority of abortions result from just such a situation). The situation you are describing either involves a woman being coerced, raped, or not impregnated.

This is not tossing anything aside, either. I want to make sure that there are at least some paternal rights. As of right now, there are none.

Infinite_Loser

If you *willingly* participate in sex and produce a baby because of it, then you should *legally* be required to accept the consequences of those actions-- Man, woman or otherwise. No more of this "Well, I'm just not ready to be a parent!" excuse that 99.7% (Last statistic I saw. It's posted somewhere on one of those other abortion threads) of women who have an abortion give. If you feel as if you're not ready to be a potential parent, then you shouldn't be sleeping with anyone.

/endthreadhijack

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Elphaba

Perhaps I wasn't clear, Will. I gave you a real situation about me and my first husband. We were watching ptsd melt down our marriage (thus the fear), and his fear of abandonment was causing more and more physical control. The feared pregnancy was due to failed contraception. Would it change your OP much if Mr. Elph faked the use of contraception?

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

mixedmedia

No offense, Will, but I think this exhibits a real naivete to the dynamics of an emotionally abusive relationship. And I'll go so far as to say that any law requiring women to have children because the father wants them to will be just as likely to be as a means of controlling the woman as it is to satisfy some dude who got laid one night and decided he wanted the resulting kid.

From what I see of the arguments in your favor here (not necessarily yours), they are predicated on two factors:

1. resentment towards women
and
2. anti-abortion stances

I don't trust arguments based on either of these attitudes to be in the interest of real men dealing conscientiously with this issue.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Seaver

This is how the current situation boils down, no rape/coercion/mental instability counted.

If a woman conceives and does not want to be a mother, she's pro-choice.

If a man conceives and does not want to be a father, he's a dead-beat no good worthless turd.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Infinite_Loser

Yes, some women might become pregnant through an emotionally abusive relationship, but the facts are that such situations are simply not reflective of abortions as a whole as they represent a minority. In other words, fringe occurrences shouldn't be used as arguing points as they don't adequately represent the majority.

The bottom line here is that most abortions are performed not because of rape and/or physical/emotional abuse, but because the woman does not feel like being a mother. It'd be a cold day in hell before a man can skip fatherhood because he doesn't feel like it.

That about sums it up

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

I was trying desperately to steer the conversation away from something deeply personal that could be misinterpreted as an appeal to emotion while simultaneously showing you respect that I want to show. You're very good people and the last thing I'd want to do is be disrespectful to you (or your husband).

I'll try to make this clear:
I stated clearly that this thread is about situations where two consenting adults have intercourse without contraception. Failed contraception means that your situation does not fall under the scope of this thread.

The last thing I want to do is be dismissive of your situation, which was clearly serious. It's just not a part of this particular thread.

While my degree in psychology doesn't make me an expert on the dynamics of relationships from a psychological perspective, it pretty much precludes naivete on the subject.

I appreciate the false choice fallacy, though, as it actually proves my points. My stance is pro-equality, which indicates that your two factors are not the only two factors that could be in play. I don't resent women, and my stance on abortion has to do with personal responsibility, which of course ties into this but it's hardly the whole case.

As for this: [QUOTEmixedmedia]... I'll go so far as to say that any law requiring women to have children because the father wants them to will be just as likely to be as a means of controlling the woman as it is to satisfy some dude who got laid one night and decided he wanted the resulting kid.[/QUOTE]
You realize how sexist this comes off, right? All men either are controlling or are idiots? Or did you miss group 3, good men who not only want to take responsibility for their actions but also want children? Or do you believe that they don't exist?

Yikes.

mixedmedia

This isn't what we are talking about.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Infinite_Loser

Well, explain it to me then because that's what I got out of what I read

Edit: If wanting there to be some sort of 'equality' between men and women when it comes to reproduction makes me resentful, then I guess I'm the biggest women hater in the world . I mean no disrespect or anything, but I can do the same thing that you did.

Any woman who agrees with the current set-up is either:

1.) Pro-abortion or

2.) Has had an abortion in the past.

See how easy it is to group people into two-narrow categories?

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

jewels

And if a woman conceives, wants the baby, takes responsibility, carries, births, raises and provides for said baby,

And the man conceives, wants the baby on his terms, brings a box of diapers once a month and birthday presents annually, he's a daddy.

No matter how you sculpt it, it's not fair. Women know that life isn't fair. That's why we carry babies.

Elphaba's example is perfect. Or how about a 37-year old woman who's just pumped out two babies in the past two years (planned) who finds herself pregnant while she's still breastfeeding (OBs assure you that nursing mothers cannot become pregnant) and simply can not handle working fulltime, caring for four children and paying child care for them all, while her marriage is losing strength?

What about the young woman in her late teens or early 20s, a little naive, ends up in bed with a guy who promises to use a condom and she believes him when he says he's wearing one, or tells her "But baby it feels good, I'll pull out" and she thinks she's safe.

I'm aware that Willravel stated this all relates to consensual sex, but unless two people are in an amazingly secure union, there are so many scenarios -- and surely I haven't seen or heard 'em all -- that tell us why women are the ones with the right to choose.

I maintain that I do agree on the point of paternal notification. In an idealistic world, both parties agree. But they often don't, and I don't know many women who would carry a baby for a man that they no longer want in their life and hand him the baby after nine months.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Infinite_Loser

I'd like to re-iterate my point about "Not having sex if you're unable to deal with the possible consequences".

*Sigh*

But maybe that's expecting too much of people.

Edit: And ignorance should never be an excuse. That really annoys me.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Seaver

Sorry, but this is a moot point. A man can not tell if a woman is on the pill, ANY woman knows if the man is using a condom.

A woman carrying the baby is something we can not create equality in. We can not allow a man to carry a baby, so there's no point in arguing.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Ustwo

I find this thread interesting, and there is really nothing for me to add at this point beyond the solution is to not have sex with women who view abortion as a form of birth control I do want to just point out a bit of a error on this part.

While ovulation is suppressed with breast feeding, and the chances of getting pregnant are greatly reduced, its frequent enough that they will put you on the mini-pill while breast feeding, at least any women I've known who were breast feeding.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I refuse to believe that women are that stupid. The "yes, but what if we're all idiots?" rule can't apply to the law, can it? Can't we hold ourselves to a reasonable standard? Or is it just "he said he'd pull out"?

PonyPotato

If you don't have a vagina of your own, don't make comments regarding whether a woman "knows" if a man is wearing a condom or not. Sometimes (especially if a condom is thin and you were not the one to put it on him/guide him in), you CAN'T tell, and in my experience women are not usually the ones to notice if a condom is coming off or if it has broken. It is not always possible to tell, so please don't make generalized bullshit statements regarding that unless you have the experience/survey results to back it up.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that no child should be brought into the world unless it is wanted, preferably by both parents. If I didn't want to carry a child for whatever reason, I don't believe a court should be able to force me to do so. If a man really wants a child, he should find a woman who is willing to have one with him and raise it properly. I know that this thread is focusing on a "good relationship, consensual sex" point of view, and I feel that in that situation having children should be a mutual decision. Totally. It should be something discussed beforehand, especially if the couple is not using birth control. If either partner is not ready for the responsibility, USE CONTRACEPTIVES. That's what they're made for.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Willravel

Fixed that for you.

PonyPotato

Good job.

I apologize for getting heated, but I'm not a fan of a man telling me what a woman can or cannot feel if he's never had a vagina of his own. Maybe experience with anal (with a man, not a strapon) both with and without a condom would be an acceptable substitute experience.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Willravel

No worries. It's a serious subject.

Plan9

Okay, I'm way off but let's look at the flip side of this issue:

I think the key phrase in the title of this thread is "My Choice."

My choice, my choice... hmm... Pro Choice = Pro Abortion.

Choice means that I don't HAVE to have a mistake-baby (TM), right?

How much does it cost to make a baby, again? However much you spent on dinner, most likely. My favorite theme is how cheap human life is when you really get down to it and put away your mamby-pampy feelings.

The only issue I'm ever concerned with as far as parental rights are related to legal and financial responsibility. I'll slamdunk an unwanted fetus before I ruin my life.

This issue smells like a heap legal mumbo-jumbo. Should I get my partners to sign a waiver before we have sex stating that I am free from responsibility for all unwanted pregnancies despite the use of birth control?

We live in an educated society. Storks don't bring rugrats. No cabbage patch. Women know damn well that my tallywacker squirts baby-maker. They hold the keys to the clubhouse. They have the receptacle. We have the insane poke reflex like a braindead dog. Modern technology like condoms, the female birth control pill, the "morning after" pill... they supersede the old favorite methods like using a fake name, Jack Daniels, blowing it on her stomach, moving to Mexico or a straightened coat hanger.

...

Rights, rights, rights... I got nothing. Legal dominion over biological processes that have been going on for thousands of years.

Can a man tell a woman to keep growing an unwanted child?

Can a man tell a woman to abort an unwanted child?

Sure, it takes two to tango... but only one carries the bastard.

In this case, I feel that possession is 9/10s of the law.

...

I wish good (common) sense won out over horniness.

It still kicks my ass all the time.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Elphaba

As always, Crompsin gets all reality stupid.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

FoolThemAll

Much better to protect the children of both wealthy and poor fathers. But it'd be an improvement nonetheless. Yes, I would really want to go there, but by no means would I want to stop there.

As to the OP:

A system in which women can disregard the rights of the z/e/f - 'I can abort anytime I want to' - but in which men can't, is a terrible system.

A system 'fair' to both women - 'I can abort the responsibilities' - and men - 'You can always abort your responsibilities, it's on you' - is an even worse system.

Consistency here is not necessarily better. Consistency could mean more state-condoned murder. Consistency would only be an improvement if it meant the criminalization of z/e/f abandoment for both sexes.

Otherwise, it's a foolish consistency.

(Needless to say, I don't like Roe.)

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Plan9

And here I thought having kids just because an unwanted fetus is growing inside some woman (with no other good reason like the availability of solid financial support, finishing your education, emotional preparation, or future relationship obligations) and possibly ruining two perfectly normal young lives was foolish.

Who needs money, family, college, or feelings? We have a fetus! IT'S A MIRACLE! Pfft, you know what is a miracle to me? People taking care of themselves.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

PonyPotato

Changing this to "quoted for complete agreement" since referring to this statement as "truth" is "childish."

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Elphaba

Sweet William, when did bullet points become "deeply personal or an appeal to emotion?" I left the outcome an open question for the purpose of continuing the conversation, and not some sort of what..? Attention seeking from something that happened over three decades ago? Nah, honey...I don't come from some sort of regret or victimhood from those long ago days. C'mon, you know me better than that.

It was *only* a personal experience, that holds no current regret or even sadness. There *was* a positive outcome that had nothing to do with abortion. I simply asked you to come up with a positive outcome for a situation of that kind.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Plan9

We all have our fortes. Mine is having no clue as to what you mean by this.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

I didn't mean to say it was intentional. Most logical fallacies are accidents.