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Old 01-15-2008, 06:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How do you feel about mandatory health insurance?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080115/..._healthcare_dc

Is it similar to mandatory car insurance?

I understand the concept and how it should work, but will it work on a federal/national level, or should it be state by state? (My car insurance is much cheaper in Ohio than in New Jersey/California. But they are trying to get laws passed that would allow them to buy from different states then they currently live in. Would the same thing happen here, where people move or travel and go from state to state frequently? How do you prevent the quality from being less in smaller states with fewer people?)

Do you feel that there is any incentive for doctors/insurance companies to lower prices because everyone has to pay now?

Will this increase demand for doctors because of the 'I'm spending all this money, I better get something for it' attitude?

How will this effect immigrants (legal one would have to get it, so I'm talking about illegal ones here) and visitors to this country with no health care coverage?

How are really sick people covered by this plan (do they have to pay more?)

What would be covered by this health care insurance, is it just like we have today in the US (are there strict limits as to what is covered, or can you pay for better coverage)?

Do you think this would work better than a single government (or a non-profit) run health insurance company/agency?

Do they healthy people still need to pay for people who choose to be unhealthy, or should there be tests and lifestyle factors that determine the rate you pay based on how likely you will need medical assistance?
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You can choose not to drive if you don't want to pay for car insurance. You can't choose not to breathe or live.

I had a discussion with my wife a few years ago. We pay a bloody fortune for health insurance, probably 4 times what it would cost us to just pay for the doctors when we need them. But she refused to let me cancel the insurance and take the risk. Fact is, though, that if everyone refused to buy health insurance the cost of all medical stuff would go down. People behave differntly when they pay for something themselves than when they perceive someone else is paying for it. So - I would PROHIBIT third party payments for health care other than true insurance, for catastrophic events. Everything else, pay from your pocket, cut out the insurance companies and watch the prices come down. Yes, there would need to be some adjustments for certain chronic conditions but overall, this would be the single biggest step we could take to bring down the cost of health care.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have always been more of a proponent of sliding scale (based on income, family size, etc) health care, that would have a minimum level and eventually a maximum. While 10% of someone's $25,000 annual income may not seem much to some, 10% of someone's $1,000,000 annual income is quite a bit for the same service. So they should have a maximum pay where the sliding scale tops out at.

I think healthy people should have certain incentives, like safe drivers. However, that poses a serious potential problem. If I am sick and I don't want my health care premiums to go up, I don't see a doctor.... but if those problems get worse and I went from bronchitis where some antibiotics and Albuterol would have cleared it up relatively cheap to now having pneumonia and it costing the insurance and myself a lot more, was staying away worth it?

I really like a sliding scale, where no one except the financial department knows how much you are paying and there is no mention of insurance at all. That way the hospital doctors will do what they need to do, not what is covered and the bare minimum.

Now, if you want insurance to supplement what you would have to pay... I think that something would eventually appear in the market for people to buy.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Mandatory employer-provided health care is not a solution to the problem we face.

The driving factor behind the health care issue is cost. Cost cannot be reduced so long as we insist on centering our care finances on a bloated insurance industry that only spends 40-60% of what we pay into it on our health care. The insurance industry is grossly inefficient by any measure, and making purchase of insurance mandatory will not give them any incentive to become more efficient--quite the opposite.

Employer-provided health care is a relic of the past and puts our companies at disadvantage when facing competition in the global markets. Enforcing it through making it mandatory or making such a system the center-piece of a health care solution is not a real solution. Costs will continue to hobble us, no matter how we hide them.

Make no mistake, health-care benefits are not a gift from your employer. They are your employer spending your wages on insurance. Granted, there are some tax implications because they are not technically wages, but the fact is that is YOUR money being spent on those benefits. Those premiums are coming out of YOUR pocket.

Opposite to making insurance companies a mandatory part of the equation, I support making them a purely optional part of the equation. How? By having a universal comprehensive single-payer system to ensure basic health care needs for all people. That way if you want to go above and beyond this level, you can opt into an insurance program to defer costs. Insurance companies will no longer have the sword of Damocles to hang over consumers, since having insurance will no longer mean risking one's basic health, but instead be a merely voluntary item for those seeking more costly optional benefits.

Single-payer universal comprehensive health care:

- Employers are not hobbled by the cost and administration of health insurance programs.

- Elimination of the Insurance Industry black hole (savings of as much 4% of our GNP off the top)

- End of most current labor disputes (most strikes in the last decade have centered on health benefits)

- Drastic reduction in personal bankruptcies (more than 50% currently are direct result of medical bills)

- Vast improvement in national health rates due to coverage extension to all Americans.

Mandatory employer-provided coverage (or individually-provided for that matter) will not achieve any of the above benefits.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Location: bedford, tx
why did the government make seat belts mandatory?

It wasn't to 'save lives', it was to save money for the insurance industry.

Same reason for making auto insurance mandatory, it was to create wealth for the insurance industry.

mandatory health insurance is only going to create more wealth for yet another insurance industry.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:36 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Once the decision is made that everyone must be provided health care, I don't see how keeping the insurance companies in the loop can be cost effective. Wouldn't they just be middlemen taking in profits that could be spent to provide better care?

As far as controlling costs, I think loquitur has a good point. As long as people with insurance do not care what the overall cost is there will be no competitive reason for providers to lower prices.

I read recently that the average person now gets 14 prescriptions a year. I don't think I have had that many in my life. We are becoming a nation of drug users and the doctors are our suppliers. I wonder just how many of these pills are really necessary.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
You can choose not to drive if you don't want to pay for car insurance. You can't choose not to breathe or live.
QFT. Unfortunately one cannot equate private auto insurance with private health insurance. Not to get off on too much of a tangent, but this is a big part of why I support universal healthcare: you can't choose not to live or breathe.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
you can't choose not to live or breathe.
I beg to differ. one most certainly can choose whether to breathe or not, live or not.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
I beg to differ. one most certainly can choose whether to breathe or not, live or not.
For most people suicide isn't a reasonable alternative to having health insurance.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well, Willravel, per my earlier post, I think you CAN live without health insurance. Health CARE you need. Health INSURANCE you probably don't, except for real unexpected events, i.e. true insurance - not third-party payment schemes.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
For most people suicide isn't a reasonable alternative to having health insurance.
*puts fingergun to temple, cocks thumb* I'll do it, motherfucker! I'll DO IT!

...

Why can't the US just "get with it" like Canada / Europe? I'll take their brand of mediocrity over ours any day.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
Well, Willravel, per my earlier post, I think you CAN live without health insurance. Health CARE you need. Health INSURANCE you probably don't, except for real unexpected events, i.e. true insurance - not third-party payment schemes.
I didn't choose my words as well as I should have. I did mean healthCARE.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I didn't choose my words as well as I should have. I did mean healthCARE.
It's okay, pumpkin.
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I think the insurance pricing has more to do with ridiculous law suits and such, that is the shit that drives up the premiums.

Also oral health and dentistry is ridiculous. Are you telling me that $20 worth of metal in my mouth and a few 20 minute check ups annually were worth thousands of dollars to correct my janky teeth? The government would be smart to regulate the shit rather than making it mandatory.
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I think the insurance pricing has more to do with ridiculous law suits and such, that is the shit that drives up the premiums.

Also oral health and dentistry is ridiculous. Are you telling me that $20 worth of metal in my mouth and a few 20 minute check ups annually were worth thousands of dollars to correct my janky teeth? The government would be smart to regulate the shit rather than making it mandatory.
Mojo, I am close to starting a thread that is designed to spark curiousity as to why some of the opinions of posters here bear an uncanny resemblance to the opinions that the nine foundations who are listed as primary funders of the manhattan institute, and almost every other conservative think tank and opinion distributing "presence", in the US today, pay huge amounts of money to promote so widely.

I also want to examine why it is that other posters here almost never offer opinions "in synch" with those financially backed by Coors, Koch, Olin, Scaife, et al, foundations. I think it is more than a coincidence, don't you?

Let us examine who the leading critic of medical malpractice litigation, and malpractice plaintiff attorneys is, and where his funding comes from. Wouldn't you expect it to come largely from medical malpractice insurers and medical practitioners who pay the insurance premiums? I would, but that is not where Walter Olson's funding is coming from, is it?

Note how often manhattan institute "fellow", Walter Olson's name appears on the lsit here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_re...ted_references

Examine the funding....from just nine "grantors" to the manhattan institute, at the next two links:
http://www.mediatransparency.org/rec...ecipientID=198

http://www.corpreform.com/2003/11/the_manhattan_i.html

Walter Olson maintains several websites, designed to dominate the position that you embrace, Mojo....

Here's Walter Olson, in an article in a 2004 TFP post, cited by Ustwo, just the other day:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=130156&page=2 (in post #47 )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=43067

I forgot that trolling liberals got it locked


http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=43067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo

..Yet as my Manhattan Institute colleague Walter Olson has documented in the Wall Street Journal and on his website overlawyered.com, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, in a comprehensive study released last year, determined that delivery problems were not to blame for cerebral palsy in the "vast majority" of cases. Cerebral palsy is instead typically caused by factors beyond the doctor's control, such as maternal thyroid problems, genetic abnormalities, or prenatal infection. The ACOG report was peer reviewed and endorsed by, among others, the Centers for Disease Control and the United Cerebral Palsy Research and Education Foundation.

Of course, Edwards's own cases may have been legitimate, but given jurors' difficulty in making scientific determinations and the trial bar's record in this area, there is certainly reason to be suspicious. Why then, in an era in which candidates are so subject to public scrutiny, has Edwards been given such a pass?...
In the states that have capped or legislated interference in malpractice lawsuits, the record indicates premium charges for practitioners, did not decline, compared to premiums in unregulated states:

Quote:
http://www.boston.com/business/globe...awsuit_awards/
Rising doctors' premiums not due to lawsuit awards
Study suggests insurers raise rates to make up for investment declines
By Liz Kowalczyk, Globe Staff | June 1, 2005

Re-igniting the medical malpractice overhaul debate, a new study by Dartmouth College researchers suggests that huge jury awards and financial settlements for injured patients have not caused the explosive increase in doctors' insurance premiums.

The researchers said a more likely explanation for the escalation is that malpractice insurance companies have raised doctors' premiums to compensate for falling investment returns.

The Dartmouth economists studied actual payments made to patients between 1991 and 2003, the results of which were published yesterday in the journal Health Affairs. Some previous studies have examined jury awards, which often are reduced after trial to comply with doctors' insurance coverage maximums or because the plaintiff settles for less money to avoid an appeal. Researchers found that payments grew an average of 4 percent annually during the years covered by the study, or 52 percent overall since 1991, but only 1.6 percent a year since 2000. The increases are roughly equivalent to the overall rise in healthcare costs, said Amitabh Chandra, lead author and an assistant professor of economics at the New Hampshire college.....
2006 was a good year for investors, so....
Quote:
http://depts.washington.edu/asaccp/p...70_6_6_7.shtml

....In summary, 2006 will be remembered as a stable year for medical liability insurance for most anesthesiologists, whereas the cost of driving to work is escalating!...
The reason that malpractice litigation is demonized, and the demonization is paid for by the nine foundations is about removing a stream of money that interferes with what the nine foundations funding goals are actually about, why they would foot the bill that Insureres and Doctors would logically be paying, if this was about furthering a legitimate argument that would lead to a populist result,,,,lower medical care costs for the masses:
Quote:
http://www.commonwealinstitute.org/r.../Section1.html
.....The Funding Behind the Right-Wing Movement Organizations

Right-wing organizations in this network all receive major general operating support, project grants and coordinated strategic guidance from a core group of interlocking, ultra-conservative foundations that has been working for nearly thirty years to alter public attitudes and move the national agenda to the right. This core group of right-wing foundations includes the Scaife, Castle Rock (endowed by the Adolph Coors Foundation in 1993), Bradley, Olin and Koch foundations. (See Appendix 4)

"Five foundations stand out from the rest: the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the Koch Family foundations, the John M. Olin Foundation, the Scaife Family foundations and the Adolph Coors Foundation. Each has helped fund a range of far-right programs, including some of the most politically charged work of the last several years."

- "Buying a Movement," People for the American Way Foundation[6]

These foundations are associated with the extreme right of the political spectrum. The Bradley Foundation's money comes from Harry[*] Bradley, a member of the John Birch Society.[7] The Coors Foundation previously financed the John Birch Society.[8] The Koch Foundations were founded by Charles and David Koch, sons of Fred Koch, founder of the John Birch Society. David Koch, the 1980 Libertarian Party Vice Presidential candidate, funds many libertarian organizations, and is co-founder of the libertarian Cato Institute.[9] William Simon of the Olin Foundation was a member of the secretive Christian-Right <h3>Council for National Policy</h3>, and chairman of an organization set up by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church.[10] Richard Mellon Scaife and his foundations were the primary funders of the anti-Clinton efforts of the 1990s, which included funding the vitriolic magazine, American Spectator.[11] As for today's John Birch Society, it is currently engaged in a "Get US Out!" (of the UN) campaign, a philosophy reflected across the right-wing movement.[12]

<h3>There are now over 500 organizations, of which Heritage Foundation is the most influential, all receiving funding from this core group.</h3> A 1999 study, $1 Billion for Ideas: Conservative Think Tanks in the 1990s,[13] shows how well-funded these organizations are. The study found that the top 20 of these organizations spent over $1 billion on their ideological campaign in the 1990s, not only on tort reform, but on a number of other issues they are advancing....
Mojo, if,
Quote:
....I think the insurance pricing has more to do with ridiculous law suits and such, that is the shit that drives up the premiums. .....
....were the primary influence on the high cost of medical insurance and medical care, don't you think there would be a populist movement rising, from the rising number of uninsured and by increaingly burdened purchasers.... the employers providing medical benefits?

Every opinion the foundations listed above, pay for, are opinions with no populist support, because....they are anti populist....they have to be subsidized and distributed by entities cosmetically altered to appear to be populist, scholarly, authorative, trustworthy...just like.....the pentagon, ala Rendon and "the Lincoln Group", and the "Bloggers Roundtable" !

Quote:
http://www.policycounsel.org/18856/3...ession*id*val*

Grover Norquist - president, Americans for Tax Reform; president, Americans Against a National Sales Tax/VAT; national leader of the "No New Taxes" pledge for political candidates; economist and chief speechwriter, U.S. Chamber of Commerce 1983-84; economic advisor to Jonas Savimbi, UNITA; B.A. Harvard College 1974-78; Harvard Business School 1979-1981, M.B.A.


.....It has been estimated that 75 percent of the American left is government-funded, federal, state and local. When you look at who goes to their meetings, when you look at who goes to their conventions, you're talking about government workers, you're talking about labor union leadership, you're talking about coercive union dues, you're talking about the tort lawyers, the trial lawyers, who now match the labor unions in many states as the major funding source for the Democratic party.


When you have tort reform, step-by-step, a little tort reform here and a little there, in each of the fifty states, every time you do that you puncture a hole in the fundraising efforts of the Democratic Party. Every time you have a new start-up company that's non-union--and jobs are created in new companies--you reduce the flow of cash to the Democratic party.

Now, while I'm projecting a future that's cheerful and where we're doing well, let me make it very clear that we are going to have betrayals, we are going to have setbacks, we are going to have compromises. We have a weak Senate, we don't have every member of the House hard-core. But even with all of those problems, I suggest that we are methodically moving forward and crushing the left.

Even if we get sold out and get the miserable Legal Services Corporation cut 40 percent instead of eliminated, as it should be, this is what it means. It is the equivalent loss to the left as if the Democrats had come and stood in front of the Heritage Building, burned it down, shot everybody inside, walked down the street, done the same thing to the Cato Institute, then gone down to American Enterprise Institute and burned that as well, and done all that three times. That's the loss of resources which results from simply cutting Legal Services Corporation, which funds left-wing lawyers, by 40 percent.

No, we didn't get everything we wanted. I'm very unhappy we didn't kill Legal Services the first day. But if I were on the left watching those resources, in effect, go up in smoke, I would be more distraught.

I suggest that there are four fronts that the Republicans are moving forward on, in going after the left. And these are the same four fronts that also destroyed the Soviet Union......

This address was delivered to the Board of Governors of the Council for National Policy in September, 1995 in Nashville, Tennessee.....
Mojo and Ustwo, I have no ambition or hope of influencing either of you. If I can influence some who read your posts, spur them to be curious about whether your opinions are of populist origins...voters inclined to vote in their own self interests, or whether they are part of an agenda obsessively promoted by an ultra conservative, extremely wealthy, christian evangelical directed and financed (CNP) "section" of the respublican party, I think it will improve the tone and the discussion in the threads.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I don't want anything to be mandatory that isn't about safety.

if this comes to fruitition next thing that's going to be demanded is mandatory retirement benefits.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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we need to get rid of health insurance and provide universal health care without the insurers. All they are is a middle man taking way to much of the pie.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
So, are you telling me that I am misinformed Host? Some super elite council of rich white men subsidize and perpetuate a notion that frivilious law suits are the cause that drive up insurance premiums, and it is completely unfounded and false? It's merely a vast conspiracy? I'll believe you, but besides one line referring how in 06' malpractice suits evened out, which does not at all address how they spiked the several years before that, the only other thing your post touched on was these evil white men and their connections, also they fund groups sympathetic their causes .

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4968&type=0
Quote:
Limiting Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice

The past few years have seen a sharp increase in premiums for medical malpractice liability insurance, which health care professionals buy to protect themselves from the costs of being sued (see Figure 1). On average, premiums for all physicians nationwide rose by 15 percent between 2000 and 2002--nearly twice as fast as total health care spending per person. The increases during that period were even more dramatic for certain specialties: 22 percent for obstetricians/gynecologists and 33 percent for internists and general surgeons.
Quote:
The available evidence suggests that premiums have risen both because insurance companies have faced increased costs to pay claims (from growth in malpractice awards) and because of reduced income from their investments and short-term factors in the insurance market. Some observers fear that rising malpractice premiums will cause physicians to stop practicing medicine, thus reducing the availability of health care in some parts of the country.
Quote:
Payments of claims are the most significant costs that malpractice insurers face, accounting for about two-thirds of their total costs. The average payment for a malpractice claim has risen fairly steadily since 1986, from about $95,000 in that year to $320,000 in 2002 (see Figure 2). That increase represents an annual growth rate of nearly 8 percent--more than twice the general rate of inflation.
Quote:
Although the cost per successful claim has increased, the rate of such claims has remained relatively constant. Each year, about 15 malpractice claims are filed for every 100 physicians, and about 30 percent of those claims result in an insurance payment.(5)

The other one-third of malpractice insurers' costs comprise legal costs for policyholders who are sued and underwriting and administrative expenses. Those types of costs have also increased. Like claims payments, legal-defense costs grew by about 8 percent annually during the 1986-2002 period, from around $8,000 per claim to more than $27,000.(6) In addition, the many malpractice insurers who buy reinsurance to protect themselves from large losses have seen that part of their underwriting costs rise significantly over the past decade.
Interesting it wasn't an increase in claims, it was an increase in damages...

BUt I'm sure I'm offbase on this, it's probably has nothing to do with anything.
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Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-17-2008 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Mojo please see the following news articles on insurance premiums and lawsuits:


http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/

Quote:
The Medical Malpractice MythForget tort reform. The Democrats have a better diagnosis.
By Ezra Klein
Posted Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 6:20 AM ET


The Republican answer to runaway health-care spending is to cap jury awards in medical malpractice suits. For the fifth time in four years, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist tried and failed to cap awards at $250,000 during his self-proclaimed "Health Care Week" in May. But this time, the Democrats put a better idea on the table.

Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama also want to save on health care. But rather than capping jury awards, they hope to cut the number of medical malpractice cases by reducing medical errors, as they explain in an article in the New England Journal of Medicine. In other words, to the Republicans, suits and payouts are the ill. To the Democrats, the problem is a slew of medical injuries of which the suits are a symptom. The latest evidence shows the Democrats' diagnosis to be right.

The best attempt to synthesize the academic literature on medical malpractice is Tom Baker's The Medical Malpractice Myth, published last November. Baker, a law professor at the University of Connecticut who studies insurance, argues that the hype about medical malpractice suits is "urban legend mixed with the occasional true story, supported by selective references to academic studies." After all, including legal fees, insurance costs, and payouts, the cost of the suits comes to less than one-half of 1 percent of health-care spending. If anything, there are fewer lawsuits than would be expected, and far more injuries than we usually imagine.

As proof, Baker marshals an overwhelming array of research. The most impressive and comprehensive study is by the Harvard Medical Practice released in 1990. The Harvard researchers took a huge sample of 31,000 medical records, dating from the mid-1980s, and had them evaluated by practicing doctors and nurses, the professionals most likely to be sympathetic to the demands of the doctor's office and operating room. The records went through multiple rounds of evaluation, and a finding of negligence was made only if two doctors, working independently, separately reached that conclusion. Even with this conservative methodology, the study found that doctors were injuring one out of every 25 patients—and that only 4 percent of these injured patients sued.

The Harvard study stands for a large body of literature. On their own, however, the results don't disprove the Republicans' thesis that many medical malpractice suits are frivolous. Maybe badly injured patients don't sue, while the reflexively litigious clog up the legal system, making tort reform a viable solution. But a new study, released in May, demolishes that possibility. Dr. David Studdert led a team of eight researchers from Harvard School of Public Health, Brigham and Women's Hospital, and the Harvard Risk Management Foundation* who examined 1,452 medical malpractice lawsuits. They found that more than 90 percent of the claims showed evidence of medical injury, which means they weren't frivolous. In 60 percent of these cases, the injury resulted from physician wrongdoing. In a quarter of the claims, the patient died.

When baseless medical malpractice suits were brought, the study further found, the courts efficiently threw them out. Only six of the cases in which the researchers couldn't detect injury received even token compensation. Of those in which an injury resulted from treatment, but evidence of error was uncertain, 145 out of 515 received compensation. Indeed, a bigger problem was that 236* cases were thrown out of court despite evidence of injury and error to patients by physicians. The other approximately 1,050 cases, in the research team's opinion, were decided correctly, with damage awards going to the injured and dismissal foiling the frivolous suits.*

Nor is there evidence to show that the level of jury awards has shot up. A recent RAND study looked at the growth in malpractice awards between 1960 and 1999. "Our results are striking," the research team concluded. "Not only do we show that real average awards have grown by less than real income over the 40 years in our sample, we also find that essentially all of this growth can be explained by changes in observable case characteristics and claimed economic losses."

Which brings us back to the Republicans' and Democrats' divergent approaches. The Obama-Clinton legislation fits well with Studdert's and RAND's findings. It also builds on successful efforts by the nation's anesthesiologists and a few hospitals to reduce their medical malpractice payouts.

Anesthesiologists used to get hit with the most malpractice lawsuits and some of the highest insurance premiums. Then in the late 1980s, the American Society of Anesthesiologists launched a project to analyze every claim ever brought against its members and develop new ways to reduce medical error. By 2002, the specialty had one of the highest safety ratings in the profession, and its average insurance premium plummeted to its 1985 level, bucking nationwide trends. Similarly, feeling embattled by a high rate of malpractice claims, the University of Michigan Medical System in 2002 analyzed all adverse claims and used the data to restructure procedures to guard against error. Since instituting the program, the number of suits has dropped by half, and the university's annual spending on malpractice litigation is down two-thirds. And at the Lexington, Ky., Veterans Affairs Medical Center, a program of early disclosure and settlement of malpractice claims lowered average settlement costs to $15,000, compared with $83,000 for other VA hospitals.

Clinton and Obama would offer federal grants and support to unroll such programs nationwide. And they want to create a national database to track incidents of malpractice and fund research into standards, procedures, and technologies that would prevent future injuries. So, what say you, Bill Frist? Is it time for another Health Care Week?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ce_pubcit.html

Quote:
Report Finds No Link Between Doctors' Premiums and Malpractice Suits






April 21, 2005

Malpractice Insurance

• Malpractice Insurers Inflated Losses, Study Finds
• Report Suggests Malpractice Insurance Price-Gouging
• Report Finds No Link Between Doctors' Premiums and Malpractice Suits
• GE: Malpractice Caps Don't Work
A new report finds no link between doctors' rising insurance premiums and medical malpractice lawsuits filed by injured patients.

At the same time that insurance rates in some areas have been climbing, the number and total value of malpractice payouts to patients have been flat since 1991 and, in fact, show a significant decline since 2001, when the spike in insurance rates began, the Public Citizen study found.

"The hard, factual evidence cannot be any clearer: We have no medical malpractice lawsuit crisis in America," said Joan Claybrook, president of Public Citizen.

"Insurance companies may be padding their bottom lines by jacking up rates on doctors, but it is not because of patients seeking relief for bad medical care through our courts. The true crisis continues to be in inadequate measures for patient safety and incompetent medical care by a small number of physicians," she said.

The data show that from 1990 to 2004, only 5.5 percent of doctors account for 57.3 percent of all malpractice payments. In addition, only 11.4 percent of doctors who have made three or more malpractice payouts have ever been disciplined.

The medical malpractice payment trends report analyzes the most current information from the federal government's National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). The NPDB reports on malpractice payments made on behalf of doctors by malpractice payers, such as insurance companies, state-run insurance funds and self-insured health care providers. Those making malpractice payments are required by federal law to report them to the NPDB.

The NPDB also contains information about disciplinary actions taken against doctors and provides a repository of data that those employing doctors can query for background checks.

In analyzing records from the NPDB, Public Citizen found that:

• The annual number of malpractice payments is down. Despite alarms by doctors and insurers about a "crisis," the number of malpractice payments paid on behalf of doctors - chiefly by their insurance companies - has fallen over the past three years, from 16,682 in 2001 to 14,441 in 2004, a drop of 13.6 percent. The 2004 number is only 5.5 percent higher than the 13,687 payments recorded for 1991. Adjusting for population growth, the number of payments per 100,000 people has fallen from 5.85 to 4.91 from 2001 to 2004, a decline of 16.1 percent. Since 1991, the number of payments per 100,000 people has dropped by 9.2 percent, from 5.41.

• The total value of malpractice payments has been flat since 1991. Total malpractice payments increased from $2.1 billion in 1991 to $4.2 billion in 2004. However, from 1991 to 2004, the inflation-adjusted amount has changed little, rising from $2.1 billion to $2.3 billion - an average annual increase of only 0.8 percent.

• Jury verdicts are not out of control. The median size of payments from judgments appears to have soared, from $125,000 in 1991 to $265,000 in 2004. But adjusted for inflation, the median payment grew from $125,000 in 1991 to $146,100 in 2004 - an average annual increase of only 1.2 percent.

• There has been a 56 percent decline in million-dollar payouts. The incidence of payments of $1 million or more, adjusted for inflation, is down 56 percent from 1991 to 2004, from 2.25 percent of all payments to just 1 percent of all payments. Even during the so-called "crisis" years between 2001 and 2004 when insurance rates were spiking, the incidence of large payments declined 31 percent, from 1.44 percent of payments to 1 percent.

• The incidence of surgical and obstetrics payouts has not increased. Although surgeons and obstetricians complain the loudest about malpractice insurance rate hikes, the incidence of surgical and obstetrics payouts is virtually unchanged from 1991 to 2004. In 1991, 9.5 percent of all payouts were for obstetrics cases; in 2004, the figure was the same. Surgical cases accounted for 25.6 percent of payments in 1991, and 26.1 percent of payouts last year.

• Cases of serious injury to patients continue. Three-quarters of payments for 2004 involved major or significant injuries, or death, and these most severe cases account for 89 percent of the value of payouts made. "Failure to diagnose" cases have grown from 16 percent of payouts in 1991 to 20 percent in 2004, while "improper performance" cases have grown from 10 percent to 15 percent of payouts.

"The evidence shows that the system is working as it should, with minor injuries receiving little compensation and the great bulk of malpractice awards going to cases of major, debilitating injuries - or death," said Frank Clemente, director of Public Citizen's Congress Watch.

"Rather than complain about medical malpractice lawsuits, the medical community should address its own failings and strive aggressively to improve the performance and competency of its doctors and better protect patients. That is the surest way to keep both doctors and patients out of the courtroom."

These are some pretty telling statistics that seem to discount the notion that it is frivolous lawsuits that are causing the premiums to go up and point toward greed being the cause.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:33 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
So, are you telling me that I am misinformed Host? Some super elite council of rich white men subsidize and perpetuate a notion that frivilious law suits are the cause that drive up insurance premiums, and it is completely unfounded and false? It's merely a vast conspiracy? I'll believe you, but besides one line referring how in 06' malpractice suits evened out, which does not at all address how they spiked the several years before that, the only other thing your post touched on was these evil white men and their connections, also they fund groups sympathetic their causes .

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4968&type=0








Interesting it wasn't an increase in claims, it was an increase in damages...

BUt I'm sure I'm offbase on this, it's probably has nothing to do with anything.
Mojo.... I'm not telling you, I am laying it out in front of you, for you to read. I am motivated by the air of certainty I see in the way you assert what you believe to be true. I am showing you the source of your opinions, who finances the dissemination of them, and the political agenda that justifies the "investment", by that small number of extremely wealthy, extremely conservative foundations. Bush and Cheney then read the script, and the entire republican noise machine sings the harmony.

What has either Bush or Cheney been accurate or truthful about?

Quote:
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4098&sequence=0
Congressional Budget Office
Cost Estimate March 10, 2003
H.R. 5
Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003
As ordered reported by the House Committee on Energy and Commerce on March 6, 2003


...Impact on Health Insurance Premiums
The percentage effect of H.R. 5 on overall health insurance premiums would be far smaller than the percentage impact on medical malpractice insurance premiums. Malpractice costs account for a very small fraction of total health care spending; even a very large reduction in malpractice costs would have a relatively small effect on total health plan premiums.....
Quote:
http://www.factcheck.org/article133.html
President Uses Dubious Statistics on Costs of Malpractice Lawsuits
January 29, 2004
Two Congressional agencies dispute findings that caps on damage awards produce big savings in medical costs.
Summary
The President holds out the prospect of major cost savings if Congress will pass a law limiting what injured patients can collect in lawsuits. He wants a cap of $250,000 on any damages for “pain and suffering” and other non-economic damages. His administration projects savings to the entire economy of between $60 billion and $108 billion per year in health-care costs, including $28 billion or more to federal taxpayers.
But both the General Accounting Office and the Congressional Budget Office criticize the 1996 study the Bush administration uses as their main support. These nonpartisan agencies suggest savings – if any – would be relatively small.

Analysis
In a speech in Little Rock, Arkansas on Jan. 26 the President said, “One of the major cost drivers in the delivery of health care are these junk and frivolous lawsuits.” He said rising malpractice insurance premiums and needless medical procedures ordered up out of fear of lawsuits cost federal taxpayers “at least” $28 billion a year in added costs to government medical programs. Bush’s Department of Health and Human Services claims total savings – public and private – of as much as $108 billion a year. ....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/ask/20040204.html
Welcome to "Ask the White House" -- an online interactive forum where you can submit questions to Administration officials and friends of the White House. Visit the "Ask the White House" archives to read other discussions with White House officials.

Doug Badger
Senior Health Policy Advisor
Biography

February 4, 2004


Emily, from Nahunt, MA writes:
Why did President Bush say Tuesday that medical malpractice lawsuits were one of the major cost drivers in the delivery of health care when a recent Congressional Budget Office study found that malpractice costs account for less than 2 percent of health care spending?

Doug Badger
Hi Emily

Great question. Medical malpractice is driving up the cost of care for everyone and driving good doctors out of the medical profession.

While some academic studies have found that the cost of “defensive medicines” – the tests and procedures that your doctor in order to avoid lawsuits – are higher than 2 percent, this is still an awful lot of money.

We spent $1.6 trillion on health care in 2002. Two percent of that is around $32 billion per year. Those are pretty substantial savings.

The President believes that we’ve got to get rid of “junk lawsuits” and move to a system where victims of bad care are properly compensated.
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jul19.html
Cheney Urges Cap on Malpractice Awards
Proposal Aims to Improve Health Care
By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 20, 2004; Page A06


....An analysis by the Congressional Budget Office said the malpractice bill would benefit physicians and the government but would reduce private health insurance premiums a scant 0.4 percent.

"The Bush administration largely gets it backwards," said Columbia University law professor and physician William M. Sage. "They say health care is expensive because of lawsuits. I say lawsuits are expensive because of our health care system."......
This malpractice insurer admitted the insignifigance of payouts from "frivilous lawsuits" or jury awards, as a total percentage of it's payouts:
Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n12946587
Insurer questions impact of lawsuit caps on medical malpractice
Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City), Mar 11, 2005 by Janice Francis-Smith

...But such reforms do help insurance companies stay in business, and that's good for everybody in the long run, said the insurer's spokesman. What's more, lawsuit reform isn't the only way to tame rising premiums, he said.

Shortly following the passage of lawsuit reforms in Texas in 2003, the Medical Protective Co., a unit of GE Insurance Solutions, applied for a 19 percent rate increase. The company explained its reasoning in a letter and memo addressed to the Texas Department of Insurance.

According to the filing, three of the major provisions of Texas' lawsuit reform package - capping non-economic damages, reducing the interest rate on pre- and post-judgment interest, and periodic payment of future damages exceeding $100,000 - were estimated to save the insurer less than 3 percent of total losses paid for 2004.

Non-economic damages are a small percentage of total losses, reads the memo. Capping non-economic damages will show loss savings of 1 percent.

A copy of Medical Protective's filing from 2003 was obtained by the California-based nonprofit organization the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights, which promoted the documents as evidence that caps on non-economic damages do not affect insurance premiums.

John Novaria, spokesman for GE Insurance Solutions, said to take the filing out of context misrepresents the facts.

After Proposition 13 was passed in Texas, in late 2003, we were asked by the Texas Department of Insurance to basically tell how much impact a cap would have on loss savings, not necessarily on premiums, said Novaria. If we're asked a couple of weeks after this thing passes to make this sort of a determination, where is the data?

Our position is that caps on non-economic damages can be effective, but reforms such as this really have to stand the test of time, said Novaria. It has to work its way through the courts, through legal challenges, and sometimes it may be years before you start seeing insurers rolling back their premiums and charging less, because it's going to take so long for any kind of litigation to make its way through court....
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...801490_pf.html
Calculating Malpractice Claims
Study by Consumers Group Suggests Insurers Set Premiums Based on Market, Not Their Losses

By Dean Starkman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 29, 2005; D01

The insurance industry has long argued that huge losses from malpractice suits -- now running more than $7 billion a year -- have forced it to hike malpractice premiums, which more than doubled last year in some cities and for some specialties.

But a new study by a consumer group shows that losses reported to state regulators -- the figures often cited by the industry -- were much larger than losses actually paid during a nine-year period.

The study, by the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights, a Santa Monica, Calif., advocacy group, found that from 1986 to 1994 the industry reported to regulators losses of $39.6 billion but actually paid only $26.7 billion, 31 percent less. The losses were overstated in each of the nine years.

The study examined a period that ended a decade ago to compare losses insurers reported to regulators as "incurred" with the amount actually paid after malpractice claims had made their way through the court system -- a process that can take nine or 10 years. By that measure, 1994 is the most recent year for which industry-wide data were available.

What insurers initially report to regulators as "losses" actually are only estimates of what claims will cost once they are settled. Insurers don't pay every claim or loss they report, since some turn out to have no merit and others are more or less expensive than first believed. That is particularly true for claims involving litigation, which can take a long time and be hard to predict. But insurers use those estimates to help set premiums for the coming year. So prices can go up, even if the losses eventually turn out to be smaller
.   click to show 
<h3>After California instituted "tort reform", and medical malpractice insurance rates rose more than 400 percent in the subsequent 13 years, a 20% insurance premium rollback ended the trend of dramatic rate increases:</h3>
Quote:
www.cga.ct.gov/2004/rpt/2004-R-0591.htm
July 29, 2004
2004-R-0591

CALIFORNIA MEDICAL MALPRACTICE PREMIUMS


By: Janet L. Kaminski, Associate Legislative Attorney


You asked how California’s 1975 Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act affected medical liability premiums.

SUMMARY

In 1975, California enacted the Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act (MICRA), which limits non-economic damage awards in medical malpractice cases to $ 250,000 and limits attorneys’ fees in such cases. The law reduced defendants’ payments to plaintiffs by nearly 30% and plaintiff’s net recoveries by 15%, according to a recently released study by the RAND Corporation. The study did not address the impact of MICRA on insurance premiums.

California medical malpractice premiums increased significantly during the first 13 years operating under MICRA, based on data from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC). Then, in 1988, California voters approved Proposition 103, which implemented a one-year rate freeze, a rate rollback of 20%, and “prior approval” rate regulation. During the following 13 years, medical malpractice premiums stabilized and, overall, declined 2%. California premiums also tracked closely with national trends for years after MICRA was enacted, but diverged after Proposition 103 was adopted. (See Figures 1 and 2 below, prepared by the Foundation for Taxpayer & Consumer Rights using NAIC data. )

Figure 1:
<img src="http://www.cga.ct.gov/2004/images/2004-R-0591-1.gif">

Figure 2:
<img src="http://www.cga.ct.gov/2004/images/2004-R-0591-2.gif">

“PRIOR APPROVAL” RATE REGULATION

As a result of Proposition 103, the California insurance commissioner must approve property and casualty (including medical malpractice) insurance rates prior to their use (Cal. Ins. Code § 1861. 01(c)). Insurers must file a complete rate application with the commissioner (Cal. Ins. Code § 1861. 05(b)). The commissioner has 14 days to determine if the application is complete. If complete, he must then provide public notice of the application within 10 days of the determination (Cal. Ins. Code § 1861. 05(c) and 10 CCR § 2648. 2).

The rate application is considered approved 60 days after public notice is made, unless:

• a consumer requests a hearing within 45 days of the public notice and the commissioner grants the request, or he denies the request and gives his reasons in writing;

• the commissioner decides to hold a hearing on his own motion; or

• the proposed rate is more than 15% of the current rate for commercial lines (7% for personal lines) and the commissioner receives a timely request for a hearing (Cal. Ins. Code § 1861. 05(d)).

Regardless, a rate application is considered approved 180 days after the commissioner receives it unless the commissioner disapproves the application after a hearing, or special circumstances exist. Pursuant to Cal. Ins. Code § 1861. 05(d), special circumstances include the following:

• a hearing is started during the 180-day period, in which case the filing takes effect at the end of the 180-day period or 60 days after the hearing, whichever is longer, unless disapproved prior to that date;

• the rate application is the subject of judicial proceedings, in which case the commissioner will have no less than 30 days after the proceedings to approve or disapprove the application; and

• the hearing is continued in accordance with California Government Code § 11524, in which case the filing takes effect at the end of the 180-day period or 100 days after the case is submitted for continuance, whichever is later, unless disapproved prior to that date. ....

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...13/ai_11799235

Insurers vow to fight order to repay policyholders - order of the California Department of Insurance to comply with the rate rollback provision of Proposition 103
Los Angeles Business Journal, Oct 21, 1991 by David Tobenkin
Claim move would drastically slash their profitability

Los Angeles-based insurers vowed to challenge California Department of Insurance orders issued last week requiring them to return millions of dollars to policyholders under the rate rollback provision of Proposition 103.....

.....Insurers have the right to appeal their ordered refunds through administrative hearings with Insurance Department officials. Many observers, however, expect insurers to launch a new round of litigation which is expected to tie up the refunds for years even if it fails to overturn it.

One thing in the insurance commissioner's favor, however, is his ability to deny insurance companies rate increases. Unlike his predecessor, Garamendi has approved no rate increases since taking office in January and said he will not do so until refunds are paid.

Garamendi also said he would continue to charge 10 percent annual interest on unpaid sums, and urged customers to write in and put pressure on their insurance companies to pay them refunds.

"We have reached the turning point in the fight to implement Prop. 103 -- a point from which there will be no retreat," said Garamendi. "To the millions of Californians who have waited over 1,000 days for their rebates from one of these 14 companies: now that you know how much you're owned, let them know how fast you want it."

Bitterli said that he believes that Garamendi was confronted with two alternatives in the effort to obtain insurer refunds: offer low rates in an attempt to persuade insurers to settle, or push for the maximum possible rollback and risk having the rollbacks tied up in the courts for further years. He chose the latter.

<h3>Garamendi enjoyed his first success in getting insurers to comply on Oct. 9, when NORCAL Mutual Insurance Co., a physician-owned malpractice mutual, became the first insurance company to voluntarily agree to return $19.9 million to policyholders.</h3>

Garamendi noted that under regulations which were later repealed at Garamendi's behest, an administrative law judge recommended a 5 percent rollback for insurer SAFECO and no rollback at all for CSAA insurance company. Under Garamendi's new regulations, SAFECO had a $110 million rollback instead of $17.5 million and CSAA, $157 million instead of nothing.

Last edited by host; 01-17-2008 at 11:35 AM..
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm happy with it.

The more mandatory benefits you have as a society - the less mandatory policing you'll need later on, to keep the poor in their place.

That's one take on it anyways.
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
So, are you telling me that I am misinformed Host? Some super elite council of rich white men subsidize and perpetuate a notion that frivilious law suits are the cause that drive up insurance premiums, and it is completely unfounded and false? It's merely a vast conspiracy? I'll believe you, but besides one line referring how in 06' malpractice suits evened out, which does not at all address how they spiked the several years before that, the only other thing your post touched on was these evil white men and their connections, also they fund groups sympathetic their causes .

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4968&type=0

Interesting it wasn't an increase in claims, it was an increase in damages...

BUt I'm sure I'm offbase on this, it's probably has nothing to do with anything.
There is little evidence that the cost of malpractice insurance has an impact on total cost of health care. In fact, the impact is minimal.

From the CBO study:
Quote:
Evidence from the states indicates that premiums for malpractice insurance are lower when tort liability is restricted than they would be otherwise. But even large savings in premiums can have only a small direct impact on health care spending--private or governmental--because malpractice costs account for less than 2 percent of that spending.(3) Advocates or opponents cite other possible effects of limiting tort liability, such as reducing the extent to which physicians practice "defensive medicine" by conducting excessive procedures; preventing widespread problems of access to health care; or conversely, increasing medical injuries. However, evidence for those other effects is weak or inconclusive
A survey this week found that 2 out of 3 Americans support mandatory health insurance.

IMO, in the short term, employer-based programs may still be the most practical, with tax (and other) incentives to small businesses to provide basic coverage to all employees.

In the longer term, single payer may be the most cost-effective solution.
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Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2008 at 04:11 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't understand. Will mandatory health insurance just raise the overall price of health insurance for all? Would it mean that the insurance companies can then set any price they like, knowing that we, have to purchase it because it is mandatory?
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Location: Greater Boston area
the only thing i see coming out of mandatory health insurance is another over-bloated government entity that will suck even more money out of my pockets.
the general population is the only one to point fingers at about the spiraling cost of healthcare. generally speaking we are fat and lazy. poor diets and a lack of exercise. everyone looking for a pill to cure everything.
the problem isnt going to go away till the root causes are addressed.
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotzlid
the only thing i see coming out of mandatory health insurance is another over-bloated government entity that will suck even more money out of my pockets.
the general population is the only one to point fingers at about the spiraling cost of healthcare. generally speaking we are fat and lazy. poor diets and a lack of exercise. everyone looking for a pill to cure everything.
the problem isnt going to go away till the root causes are addressed.
More money than you realize, to the tune of $ billions/year, is now being sucked out of your pocket in the form of higher premiums for your health care and higher taxes to cover the medical costs of the uninsured.
What additional costs are created by the uninsured population?
* The United States spends nearly $100 billion per year to provide uninsured residents with health services, often for preventable diseases or diseases that physicians could treat more efficiently with earlier diagnosis.
* Hospitals provide about $34 billion worth of uncompensated care a year.
* Another $37 billion is paid by private and public payers for health services for the uninsured and $26 billion is paid out-of-pocket by those who lack coverage.
* The uninsured are 30 to 50 percent more likely to be hospitalized for an avoidable condition, with the average cost of an avoidable hospital stayed estimated to be about $3,300.
* The increasing reliance of the uninsured on the emergency department has serious economic implications, since the cost of treating patients is higher in the emergency department than in other outpatient clinics and medical practices.

Getting Everyone Covered will Save Lives and Money
The impacts of going uninsured are clear and severe. Many uninsured individuals postpone needed medical care which results in increased mortality and billions of dollars lost in productivity and increased expenses to the health care system. There also exists a significant sense of vulnerability to the potential loss of health insurance which is shared by tens of millions of other Americans who have managed to retain coverage.

Every American should have health care coverage, participation should be mandatory, and everyone should have basic benefits.

National Coalition on Health Care (feel free to evaluate the credibility and objectivity of the source)
Mandatory health insurance does not necessarily mean a bloated government entity, particularly in a transition period with a reliance on employer based health insurance. The federal government is the largest employer in the country and government workers have a choice between numerous plans from Care First (blue cross/blue shield) to various HMOs and PPos and other options. There is no government bureaucracy. A health pool for those small employers who currently do not provide coverage come be administered in a similar manner. An expanded SCHIP program, administered by the states, not a federal bureaucracy, could cover other working poor.

Health care costs will be more manageable when we are all not paying for the uninsured who are presently working w/o insurance, when there is a greater emphasis on educating consumers on the cost effectiveness of preventive rather than remedial treatment, and when the entire system is overhauled to be more technology driven.
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Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2008 at 07:35 PM.. Reason: added NCHC data
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Location: Greater Boston area
Quote:
Mandatory health insurance does not necessarily mean a bloated government entity, particularly in a transition period with a reliance on employer based health insurance. The federal government is the largest employer in the country and government workers have a choice between numerous plans from Care First (blue cross/blue shield) to various HMOs and PPos and other options. There is no government bureaucracy. A health pool for those small employers who currently do not provide coverage come be administered in a similar manner. An expanded SCHIP program, administered by the states, not a federal bureaucracy, could cover other working poor.
and who is going to monitor and regulate this to assure people arent getting ripped off in one way or another? this would be a scam artists paradise with millions of people buying into a required program. i dont see how something of this scale can be pulled off without government oversight.
small businesses banding together to help defray the cost is an excellent idea. maybe offering tax incentives will prompt a majority of them to comply, but again, who is going to check and make sure they are complying?

Quote:
Health care costs will be more manageable when we are all not paying for the uninsured who are presently working w/o insurance, when there is a greater emphasis on educating consumers on the cost effectiveness of preventive rather than remedial treatment, and when the entire system is overhauled to be more technology driven.
i agree 100% with that. i just dont believe having the government saying "everyone has to have health insurance now" is going to solve the problems.
there are too many unhealthy individuals in this country with too few hospitals, physicians and nurses to care for them.
to me this sounds like the typical American obsession with quick fixes. lets not ID the root causes and fix those. lets throw a band-aid on it so all the important people can stand in front of the cameras and say "look what i did for you."
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Let's assume we did make it mandatory... how are the homeless going to afford it? What about unemployed or extremely poor people? Who is going to pay when the insurance companies deny coverage because it is a "previous condition"?

The health insurance industry is a bunch of crooks that are fleecing America. The last thing we need to do is give them a government sanction.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:33 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Once you give government that control and they make insurance mandatory, you then give them control over YOUR life.

Surveys will come out saying, "this food causes cancer and costs insurance company millions." Government will ban that food.

It's fucking bullshit to give government so much damned control in our lives. They have enough control and we keep forfeiting rights over to them in the name of "helping" or "public safety".

We are a country that worries more about the petty shit than we do the real problems. Not that health care isn't a problem, it is, but if we make it "mandatory" or we give government too much control it will pendulum over to where the solution is a bigger problem, but we are stuck with it.

Why not put tax money to better use, initiatives to better use by creating jobs, opening true small business loans, give corporations incentives and tax write offs if they offer employees better wages and benefits.

Come on people, let's look for solutions that don't require us giving government more fucking power.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:37 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Why can't the US just "get with it" like Canada / Europe? I'll take their brand of mediocrity over ours any day.
You got the VA if you want that brand of mediocrity.
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Old 01-18-2008, 06:43 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
Let's assume we did make it mandatory... how are the homeless going to afford it? What about unemployed or extremely poor people? Who is going to pay when the insurance companies deny coverage because it is a "previous condition"?

The health insurance industry is a bunch of crooks that are fleecing America. The last thing we need to do is give them a government sanction.
Low-income and the poor already qualify for Medicaid/Medicare. None of the proposals from the Democratic nominees are intended to be permanent fixes, but they all intend to implement stronger regulations to reign in the insurance industry as part of their health care packages.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Once you give government that control and they make insurance mandatory, you then give them control over YOUR life.
The mixed payor health insurance market is failing. The idea of mandatory insurance is a half-measure and imperfect in it's own right, but it's all that's likely to be implementable in the current political climate. The purpose is not to control your life it's to free you of an unnecessary financial burden that's artificially inflated by the profit-motive. Really, it's nice to speak about theoretical solutions abd high ideals, but our nation pays 60-300% more for health care than the universal health care schemes in Europe, Canada, and Japan and 15% of our population isn't even covered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
You got the VA if you want that brand of mediocrity.
I don't usually post in this forum so I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but the VA is a shining example of the efficacy of a government-run, self-contained health care system.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:22 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Location: Back in Ohio
I don't like the idea of having to pay (what happens if I take a year off work and don't make any money? Do I still have to pay, or am I covered by others?)

But I still think that the universal route with different levels of care based on how much you pay and how healthy you are would be a good route. And there needs to be a set of defined procedures that are covered.

I liked this article though.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/e...84257033287107

Quote:
In Socialized Medicine, Everyone Is A Doctor

Health Reform: The British have found a way to shorten those long, annoying waits for care and lower the rising costs of their universal access system. They'll let patients take care of themselves.

The London Telegraph reported Tuesday that the British government has a "plan to save billions of pounds from the NHS budget." But it won't come without enormous pain.

"Instead of going to a hospital or consulting a doctor, patients will be encouraged to carry out 'self-care' as the Department of Health tries to meet Treasury targets to curb spending," the Telegraph explained....
And I do like what Barack said about coming up with a solution and having the meetings be open-door and on C-SPAN if he becomes President.
ASU2003 is offline  
Old 01-19-2008, 01:15 AM   #32 (permalink)
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pan6467's Avatar
 
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0f3n
The mixed payor health insurance market is failing. The idea of mandatory insurance is a half-measure and imperfect in it's own right, but it's all that's likely to be implementable in the current political climate.
So, now we burden those making minimum wage and slightly above, with having to pay outrageous health insurance? How exactly is someone who lives paycheck to paycheck and barely making it going to absorb the cost? Face it Health Insurance coverage will not go down, it will however probably go up because of the new demands on the already broken system.

Tax abatements? Price controls? People will still be paying from already tight budgets. I think this would be economic suicide for them.


Quote:
The purpose is not to control your life it's to free you of an unnecessary financial burden that's artificially inflated by the profit-motive.
I agree the purpose is not to control people's lives, however, it will come to that. We already see war with tobacco, fats, and soon sugar, caffeine, sodas, and so on. The government will blame everything it can for the high costs of medical care and start taxing or banning personal choices on what people want to eat. Or making people exercise because too many people have become "lazy and obese" and it is raising the costs of care.

The problem with giving the government total control, even in the name of helping, is that you open the door for them to take away choices, personal freedoms and rights (excuse me "privileges" because my eating Dorito's, smoking and sitting around the house on my days off are "privileges" not rights... or so they will be defined someday). The sad thing is the government will take away those "privileges" in a heartbeat if they can sell the people a good reason as to why they are. It's no, not, never government's "right" or "duty" to take away any personal choices, rights or freedoms. But it seems people are becoming more and more okay with them doing so and buying into the reasons why it is okay government does.

Quote:
Really, it's nice to speak about theoretical solutions abd high ideals, but our nation pays 60-300% more for health care than the universal health care schemes in Europe, Canada, and Japan and 15% of our population isn't even covered.
None of those countries have the malpractice suits and liability insurances our medical industry has to pay.

So instead of truly working on a way to solve the problem, we'll just have government make people pay for a new expense they won't be able to afford.

I have yet to see or hear one person either here or in real life tell me why a sliding scale system won't work. If you have insurance keep it, use it. If you don't or are maxed out, we have a sliding scale so that you can still get the treatment you need.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:29 AM   #33 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: a little to the right
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Poverty's burden
You're making assumptions. Edwards' and Clinton's plans mandate insurance but introduce increased controls on how insurances behave to counteract exactly what you're talking about. The people who've outlined these proposals are experts in the field, and it's important to remember they're offering workable compromises to a full scale single payor market, which is preferable. They also have the attempt Massachusetts has made to build on.

The 47 million uninsured figure that gets bandied about are not the poor and indigent, these are people who don't qualify for public assistance who cannot afford to buy an individual plan and whose employers don't offer plans.

As for raw price there's several mechanisms at work. The millions of extra payers decreases risk and depresses prices for consumers. The government's leverage in price negotiation depresses prices for consumers and gives the insurance greater leverage in negotiating reimbursement rates with providers.

People who are unable to pay the new lower rate are given waivers/tax breaks/reimbursements, etc.

Quote:
I agree the purpose is not to control people's lives, however, it will come to that.
These type of slippery slope arguments are never convincing because reality never even comes close to the implied consequences. The sentiment behind it resonates with me, I believe we should have the right of self-determination even when that right both harms ourselves and places a greater burden on society. Prohibition's never been an effective policy, and to say more would start a humongous derail, so I'll stop at that. I'd ask you to consider the decades long precedent set by the UK with it's nationalized health care industry or the rest of Europe with their single payor systems. None of them have outlawed the things you're afraid will be outlawed.

Quote:
None of those countries have the malpractice suits and liability insurances our medical industry has to pay.
That's exactly the type of thing found exclusively in our mixed payor market and a reason for higher reimbursement demands from providers.

Quote:
I have yet to see or hear one person either here or in real life tell me why a sliding scale system won't work. If you have insurance keep it, use it. If you don't or are maxed out, we have a sliding scale so that you can still get the treatment you need.
Let me try. First, it doesn't eliminate the profit motive from health care. Yes providers are always going to need compensation for their services, but the health care industry is an unfair market because the demand side is never not going to need their services, so their influence on the market is inherently impaired. As such, insurances and providers are better able to artificially inflate prices. They have no real motivation or pressure to work out a sliding scale that does anything less than demand every penny they can hope to extract. That's why the average bankruptcy has more than $10,000 in medical debt.

Second, it's still an artificial limitation on access. People are dissuaded from seeking preventative care or any care until they absolutely need it, which drives up cost and burden on providers, which is passed on to consumers, not to mention a decrease in quality of life and economic productivity.

Third, the percentage of settled claims for uninsured patients is extremely low. Regardless of the reason for that, it's a reality, and when providers are losing money on the uninsured they're less willing/able to reduce their reimbursement rates from insurance.

Any health care scheme is going to have problems, and mandating privatized insurance is fraught with them, but it's a start, it is an improvement over what we have currently, and given the last 20 years of legislation I believe this is the best that can be done right now.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:02 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
......The problem with giving the government total control, even in the name of helping, is that you open the door for them to take away choices, personal freedoms and rights (excuse me "privileges" because my eating Dorito's, smoking and sitting around the house on my days off are "privileges" not rights... or so they will be defined someday). The sad thing is the government will take away those "privileges" in a heartbeat if they can sell the people a good reason as to why they are. It's no, not, never government's "right" or "duty" to take away any personal choices, rights or freedoms. But it seems people are becoming more and more okay with them doing so and buying into the reasons why it is okay government does.



<h3>None of those countries have the malpractice suits and liability insurances our medical industry has to pay. </h3>

So instead of truly working on a way to solve the problem, we'll just have government make people pay for a new expense they won't be able to afford.

I have yet to see or hear one person either here or in real life tell me why a sliding scale system won't work. If you have insurance keep it, use it. If you don't or are maxed out, we have a sliding scale so that you can still get the treatment you need.
pan, several of us put the time and effort in to share what we've found to convince us that the added costs to medical care and treatment in the US, associated with malpractiice litigation is insignificant, as is the "unnecessary medical tests" as an anticipated defense by medical practitioners, attempting tominimize potential liability, in malpractice suits that haven't happened yet.

<h3>It's all bullshit, pan !!!!</h3> ...paid for by the same f*ckers who paid for the "Harry and Louise ads", in reaction toHillary Clinton's attempt to "reform" healthcare, 15 yeara ago.

Read ASU2003's post, preceding yours;specifically the "Investors BS daily" EDITORIAL that he posted a linked excerpt from, and compare what it stated to what we actually know:

Here is the UK healthcare system, a government managed and financed, "single payer" system, the pride of the British people. Investors BS daily's propagandist must have worked OT, to get this to appear as he so negatively wrote about it:
Quote:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/DH_081585
PM's New Year message to NHS staff
Last modified date: 1 January 2008
2008 marks the year of the sixtieth anniversary of the NHS. At the start of this sixtieth anniversary year, I want to pay tribute

to you - the staff of the NHS.

Over the past 10 years we have invested in health services at record levels. There are now 79,000 more nurses, 30,000 more

hospital doctors, 6,000 more GPs. Where we have seen opportunities to improve the management of health resources we have sought to

carry out the reforms which have made this possible - from new roles for nurses and GPs through to new foundation hospitals with

greater freedoms and improved stewardship of the NHS’s resources.

And in 2008 the NHS is as relevant as it was in 1948. For sixty years now Britain has shown the way to health care not as a

privilege to be paid for but as a fundamental human right. The NHS remains our priority not just because it has been fundamental

to our past, but because a renewed NHS will be even more important to our future and that of our children.

You have responded with improved care and a higher standard of service. Over the past ten years waiting times have been sharply

reduced. 99.9% of people with suspected cancer are now seen by a specialist within two weeks of being referred by their GP, which

is up from 63% in 1997. Over 99% of people with suspected cancer receive their first treatment within a maximum of 31 days of

diagnosis. Cancer mortality rates have fallen over the last 10 years, and an estimated 60,000 lives have been saved. Similarly,

death rates from cardiovascular disease in people aged under 75 years are down in the last 10 years, saving 175,000 lives.

These are your achievements and I want to thank you for them.

Whenever I have visited hospitals, GP surgeries, and health centres across the country people tell me of their huge admiration for

our doctors, our nurses and those who work in our health service. The best of NHS care has always depended on its staff for

innovation, for commitment and for professionalism and we will continue to draw on your ideas and look for ways to empower you.

In 2008 we know that working together there is more to do. The Government’s priorities for the coming year will be to do all we

can to support you as you work to bear down on hospital infections and improve access to care. We have committed additional

investment to MRSA screening and deep cleaning of our wards in order to help you. Achievement of the 18 weeks target by the end

of the year will mean the shortest waiting times since the NHS was established - almost unthinkable just a few years ago.

But 2008 should be more than this as well. I intend for this also to be the year in which we demonstrate beyond a doubt that the

NHS is as vital for our next 60 years as it was for our last - more relevant to our future and the challenges that we face than

ever before. That is why one of my first acts as Prime Minister was to ask the eminent surgeon, Professor Ara Darzi, to conduct a

fundamental review of the NHS,...

...We will describe how we will achieve our shared ambition of an NHS which is more personal and responsive to individual needs.

Personalised not just because patients can get the treatment that they need when and where they want, but because from an early

stage we are all given the information and advice to take greater responsibility for our own health.

We will talk to you about the changes we need to make together to create an NHS which is as good at prevention and keeping us

healthy as it is at the care and the cures we know are there when we need them. An NHS which is able to offer the help and support

that we all need to make healthy choices for ourselves and our families.

We will set out how we can give all those patients who want it, or would benefit from it, far greater control and choice over

their own health and their own healthcare. We need an NHS that gives all of those with long-term or chronic conditions the choice

of greater support, information and advice, <h3>allowing them to play a far more active role in managing their own condition in

partnership with their clinicians.</h3> And even when healthy, we know all of us will benefit from earlier information about

potential health risks and advice on how we can keep ourselves fit and well.....
Quote:
http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article3298374.ece

19 January 2008 01:47 Home > News > Health
NHS 'constitution' urges good health
By Ben Russell, Political Correspondent
Published: 01 January 2008
The nation will be urged to keep itself in trim and avoid getting too fat under a list of patients' responsibilities to be drawn

up as part of the first "constitution" for the National Health Service.

The document being considered by Gordon Brown will urge people to take responsibility for their own health and wellbeing as well

as listing what they can expect from the NHS.

The constitution, heralded by the Prime Minister today in an open letter to NHS staff, will reinforce the Government's commitment

to patient choice, and reiterate pledges on waiting times and access to family doctors and mark a significant shift toward

preventative health care.....

....Mr Brown stressed a new emphasis on preventing health problems, and pledged to give patients "far greater control and choice

over their own health and their health care." He said: "We need an NHS that gives all of those with long-term or chronic

conditions the choice of greater support, information and advice, allowing them to play a far more active role in managing their

own condition in partnership with their clinicians."....



.....But patients will be urged to take control of their own health, with the document stressing the importance of staying

healthy, and avoiding smoking and obesity.

However, senior Government sources insisted the responsibilities in the document would not override the fundamental role of the

NHS in providing care to all on the basis of need.
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/s...189028,00.html
Brown plans constitution for NHS
Press Association
Tuesday January 1, 2008 3:03 AM


....It now looks very likely to form a centrepiece of the review of the NHS currently being carried out by eminent surgeon and

health minister Lord Darzi, due to report later this year, <h3>which has so far focused on plans to extend GP surgeries' opening

hours.</h3>

Making clear that he will not abandon the New Labour programme of health service reform, Mr Brown said that 2008 will see Health

Secretary Alan Johnson <h3>set out a programme of change to deliver "far greater control and choice" for NHS patients over their

own healthcare......</h3>
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7166429.stm
Tuesday, 1 January 2008, 14:09 GMT

PM signals first NHS constitution

Gordon Brown said patients admired NHS doctors and nurses
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has signalled his intention to press ahead with a constitution for the NHS.
It would set out for the first time the rights and responsibilities linked to entitlement to NHS care.

Mr Brown's comments came in a New Year message to NHS staff ahead of the 60th anniversary of the health service.



SEE ALSO
Hospital hygiene 'top priority'
28 Dec 07 | England
Hospital 'fines' for patient harm
13 Dec 07 | Health
Plan to boost cancer patient care
03 Dec 07 | Health
NHS bugs 'due to poor leadership'
25 Oct 07 | Health
NHS review targets GPs and bugs
04 Oct 07 | Health


...He said a constitution - which was first suggested by former PM Tony Blair - would help secure its future for another 60 years.

In a letter to NHS staff, Mr Brown warned of major changes in the health service in the year ahead.

These could be enshrined in a formal NHS constitution, setting out the "rights and responsibilities" linked to entitlement to NHS

care, he added.

Patient guarantees

The idea was first floated in a September 2006 pamphlet by then health minister Andy Burnham.

A constitution would effectively be a bill of rights for patients and is seen as a major reform - comparable to Mr Brown giving

the Bank of England control of interest rates when he was chancellor.

It is being considered as part of Lord Darzi's review of the NHS.

A Department of Health spokesman stressed it would be subject to extensive consultation, adding: "The government has no blueprint

for action."

Mr Brown has rejected a totally independent NHS, saying it must be held to account through Parliament and ministers....



....'Personalised care'

He said plans for 2008 involved tackling hospital infections and improving access to care.


And warning of a major shake-up in the coming year, he said, "We will describe how we will achieve our shared ambition of an NHS

which is more personal and responsive to individual needs.

"Personalised not just because patients can get the treatment that they need when and where they want, but because from an early

stage we are all given the information and advice to take greater responsibility for our own health."

He talked of wanting to create an NHS which is "as good at prevention and keeping us healthy as it is at the care and the cures we

know are there when we need them".

The NHS - the world's first completely free healthcare system - was created by Nye Bevan, then minister for health, on 4 July 1948.
<h3>,,,and, here is anecdotal material about the US system, the "status quo" that Investors BS daily so vigorously defends.It is a system providing government financed healthcare and nursing home care to nearly 90 million people in the US, including almost 8 million veterans and nearly 20 mlllion children, as it OBSESSES over whether the government pays, or whether an auto nsurer, or a workers compensation insurance provider pays,</h3> or maybe former NY state governor Geroge Pataki,
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all
a millionaire who transferrred father's valuable farmland to himself and his brother, a transaction listed as $10, before sending the elderly man to live far away, in a home for indigent former firemen.....


Quote:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...th/010583.html
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
TUESDAY, AUG. 28, 2007, 10:10 A.M. EDT

Household Income Rises, Poverty Rate Declines,
Number of Uninsured Up

...There were 36.5 million people in poverty in 2006, not statistically different from 2005. The number of people without health insurance coverage rose from 44.8 million (15.3 percent) in 2005 to 47 million (15.8 percent) in 2006.

These findings are contained in the Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2006 report [PDF]. The data were compiled from information collected in the 2007 Current Population Survey (CPS) Annual Social and Economic Supplement (ASEC).....

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ce/011077.html
e-mail: <pio@census.gov>
CB07-178
Broadcast Release [PDF]
Detailed data sets
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
WEDNESDAY, DEC. 13, 2007

Doctors and Dentists Account for
27 Percent of $1.6 Trillion in Health Care Revenue
Physician’s offices accounted for $330 billion in revenue in 2006, while the dental profession made up another $87 billion of the $1.6 trillion in revenue of the health care and social assistance sector, according to a U.S. Census Bureau report.

The report, 2006 Service Annual Survey: Health Care and Social Assistance, provides estimates such as revenue and sources of revenue for taxable and tax-exempt offices of physicians, hospitals, nursing care facilities and social assistance services. It covers firms with paid employees.

Health care and social assistance grew 6 percent in 2006, with a 7.1 percent increase the year before.

“The service industries make up about 55 percent of all economic activity in the country,” said Mark Wallace, chief of the Census Bureau’s Service Sector Statistics Division. “At $1.6 trillion in 2006, the health care and social assistance sector continues to play a strong role in the health of the U.S. economy.”

All four subsectors of health care and social services gained revenue from 2005. Revenue in 2006 was $654 billion for hospitals; $647 billion for ambulatory health care services, which includes offices of physicians, dentists and other health practitioners, such as chiropractors and optometrists; $149 billion for nursing and residential care facilities; and $117 billion for social assistance, which includes child and youth services, services for the elderly and community food services.

Other highlights:

Kidney dialysis centers (11.3 percent) and social assistance services for the elderly and persons with disabilities (12 percent) both grew in 2006.
The revenue for taxable employer firms in health care and social assistance sector was almost $779 billion, while tax-exempt employer firms was about $789 billion.
Eighty-eight percent of hospital revenue comes from tax-exempt hospitals, while only 19 percent of the revenue of homes for the elderly comes from tax-exempt firms.
Physician’s offices receive $163 billion of their revenue from health insurance; 34 billion comes directly from the patient.
Medicare makes up 22 percent of physicians’ revenue, and Medicaid another 5 percent.
At hospitals, patient out-of-pocket spending contributes $33 billion as a revenue source, while private health insurance adds $265 billion. Medicare and Medicaid represent $177 billion and $68 billion of revenue, respectively.
Of the $31 billion of revenue for community care facilities for the elderly, $21 billion comes from the patient (equal to $6.77 of every $10), the largest source of revenue in this industry group.
The Service Annual Survey provides data that help measure America's service economy. This particular report focuses on health care and social assistance providers for individuals. Both health care and social assistance are included in this sector because sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the boundaries of these two.
Quote:
http://www.bryaninjurylawyer.com/faq.aspx
I keep getting these letters from my health insurance company asking me questions about my car accident. What does my health insurance have to do with my pending personal injury case?

If you have governmental program health insurance such as Medicare or Medicaid and you have received medical treatment for personal injuries suffered as a result of another’s negligence, Medicare and/or Medicaid must be reimbursed.

With regard to Medicare, federal law mandates a superior lien (a first priority lien that takes precedence over competing liens and your settlement recovery) over personal injury settlements and judgments for conditional medical payments made on behalf of injured claimants. If you have received payment from a third party for medical expenses, Medicare must be reimbursed within 60 days. Medicare liens apply even to your own car insurance, such as PIP (Personal Injury Protection) and UM (Uninsured / Underinsured Motorist Protection) coverage.

If Medicaid has made conditional payment for personal injuries arising out of another’s negligence, Medicaid will have to be reimbursed. The Texas statute regulating Medicaid subrogation (the right of one who has paid an obligation which another should have paid to be indemnified by the other) mandates that by filing, or receiving, medical assistance through the State, the injured person assigns his/her right of recovery from (1) their own personal insurance, (2) other sources, or (3) another person whose negligence or wrongdoing caused the applicant or recipient’s injuries. Like Medicare, Medicaid liens apply to PIP and UM motorist benefits.

If you have private health insurance, such as a plan offered through your employer, your health care insurance carrier will often have subrogation clauses in their contract. These clauses will usually state that the insurer shall be subrogated to all rights of recovery which any insured person may acquire against any negligent person for those injuries in which benefits are provided....


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...on&btnG=Search

Day on Torts: USSC Rules on Medicaid Subrogation CaseUSSC Rules on Medicaid Subrogation Case. The USSC has ruled that a state may not .... North Carolina Workers' Compensation Lawyer & Attorney - Deuterman Law ...
http://www.dayontorts.com/damages-pe...tion-case.html - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Day on Torts: Medicaid Subrogation Right RestrictedThe Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals has limited Medicaid's subrogation .... North Carolina Workers' Compensation Lawyer & Attorney - Deuterman Law Firm ...
http://www.dayontorts.com/damages-me...estricted.html - 44k - Cached - Similar pages
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Kentucky Law Review: Federal: "USSC Rules on Medicaid Subrogation ...USSC Rules on Medicaid Subrogation Case. The USSC has ruled that a state may not enforce ... US Supreme Court · Web Sites · Web/Tech · Workers Compensation ...
http://www.kentuckylawblog.com/2006/...l_ussc_ru.html - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

NASP:: ConferencesM.2.3, Medicare & Medicaid Subrogation And Reimbursement (Health) ... M.4.7, Workers' Compensation Subrogation In Claims Involving Criminal Acts (Workers' ...
https://www.subrogation.org/conferen...gistration.asp
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid#Budget
.....Comparisons with Medicare
Although their names are similar, Medicaid and Medicare are very different programs. Medicare is an entitlement program funded entirely at the federal level.[7] It is a social insurance focusing primarily on the older population. As stated in the CMS website,[8] Medicare is a health insurance program for people age 65 or older, people under age 65 with certain disabilities, and people of all ages with end stage renal disease. The Medicare Program provides a Medicare part A which covers hospital bills, Medicare Part B which covers medical insurance coverage, and Medicare Part D which covers prescription drugs.

Medicaid is not an entitlement program, and it is not solely funded at the federal level. Medicaid is a needs-based social welfare or social protection program rather than a social insurance program. Eligibility is determined by income. States provide up to half of the funding for the Medicaid program. In some states, counties also contribute funds. The main criterion for Medicaid eligibility is limited income and financial resources, a criterion which plays no role in determining Medicare coverage. Medicaid covers a wider range of health care services than Medicare.

Some individuals are eligible for both Medicaid and Medicare (also known as Medicare dual eligibles).[9] <h3>In 2001, about 6.5 million Americans were enrolled in both Medicare and Medicaid.</h3>

Eligibility
Medicaid is a joint federal-state program that provides health insurance coverage to certain categories of low-income individuals, including children, pregnant women, parents of eligible children, seniors and people with disabilities. This program has been created in order to help these groups of low-income individuals with any and/or all of their medical bills. [10] Medicaid helps individuals that have no medical insurance or poor health insurance. While Congress and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services set out the main rules under which Medicaid operates, each state runs its own program. As a result, the eligibility rules differ significantly from state to state, although all states must follow the same basic framework.

Both the federal government and state governments have made changes to the eligibility requirements and restrictions over the years. Most recently, the Deficit Reduction Act (DRA) of 2005 (Pub.L. No. 109-171) significantly changed the rules governing the treatment of asset transfers and homes of nursing home residents. [11] The implementation of these changes will proceed state-by-state over the next few years.

One of the primary requirements for Medicaid eligibility is having a limited income. Medicaid does not pay individuals directly; Medicaid sends benefit payments to health care providers. Medicaid helps individuals that have no medical insurance or poor health insurance. In some states Medicaid beneficiaries are required to pay a small fee (co-payment) for medical services. [12] There are a number of different Medicaid eligibility categories; within each category there are requirements other than income that must be met. These other requirements include but are not limited to age, pregnancy, disabled, blind, old age, income and resources, and being a U.S. citizen or a lawfully admitted immigrant. [13] Special rules exist for those living in a nursing home and disabled children living at home. A child may be covered under Medicaid if she or he is a U.S. citizen or a legal immigrant of the U.S. Regardless if their parent is eligible for Medicaid, a child can still be covered based on their individual status, not their parents. Also if a child lives with someone that is not their parent, they may still be eligible because once again their eligibility is based on their individual status. [14]

The DRA now requires that anyone seeking Medicaid must produce documents to prove that he or she is a United States citizen or resident alien.

Budget
Unlike Medicare, which is solely a federal program, Medicaid is a joint federal-state program. Each state operates its own Medicaid system, but this system must conform to federal guidelines in order for the state to receive matching funds and grants. The federal matching formula is different from state to state, depending on each state's poverty level. The wealthiest states only receive a federal match of 50% while poorer states receive a larger match.

Medicaid funding has become a major budgetary issue for many states over the last few years, with the program, on average, taking up 22% of each state's budget.[15] According to CMS, the Medicaid program provided health care services to more than 46.0 million people in 2001.[16] In 2002, Medicaid enrollees numbered 39.9 million Americans, the largest group being children (18.4 million or 46 percent). It is estimated that 42.9 million Americans will be enrolled in 2004 (19.7 million of them children) at a total cost of $295 billion. Medicaid payments assist nearly 60 percent of all nursing home residents and about 37 percent of all childbirths in the United States.

Medicaid is also the program that provides the largest portion of federal money spent for health care on people living with HIV. Typically, poor people who are HIV positive must progress to AIDS before they can qualify under the "disabled" category. More than half of people living with AIDS are estimated to receive Medicaid payments. Two other programs that provide financial assistance to people living with HIV/AIDS are the Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and the Supplemental Security Income....
Quote:
<a href="http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:SDaep3B7QlAJig.hhs.gov/testimony/docs/2007/030807tmy.pdf+cms+testimony+2007&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us">html link</a> or http://oig.hhs.gov/testimony/docs/2007/030807tmy.pdf
Testimony of: Daniel R. Levinson Inspector General U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
House Committee on Ways and Means Subcommittees on Health and Oversight Hearing: March 8, 2007

Page 7

Medicare Program Size and Complexity

The Medicare program has grown dramatically since its inception in 1965 and now provides comprehensive health care insurance for more than 43 million persons. More than 1 billion fee-for-service claims are processed annually, and Medicare is the largest purchaser of managed care services in the country. Total Medicare expenditures have grown from $206 billion in FY 1996 to over $382 billion in FY 2006. With Medicare’s expansive network of health care activities comes a tremendous responsibility to protect the program’s integrity. In a program as complex as the Medicare program, incorrect payments to providers will occur. OIG has worked extensively with CMS to develop a process to estimate incorrect fee-for-service payments and institute corrective actions to reduce erroneous payments. In 1996, OIG estimated that over $23 billion (about 14 percent of expenditures) in improper payments had been made by the Medicare fee-for-service program. CMS has reported that the estimate of incorrect Medicare fee-for-service payments was reduced to $10.8 billion (4.4 percent of expenditures) in 2006. Although the Medicare program relies on the provider community to submit accurate and appropriate claims for payment, and the vast majority of providers are honest and trustworthy, provider efforts alone are not sufficient to ensure the integrity of the program. OIG’s oversight responsibility plays a key role in protecting scarce programresources and the health and welfare of beneficiaries...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicar...ited_States%29
Administration
The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), a component of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), administers Medicare, Medicaid, the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), and the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA). Along with the Departments of Labor and Treasury, CMS also implements the insurance reform provisions of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). The Social Security Administration is responsible for determining Medicare eligibility and processing premium payments for the Medicare program.

The Chief Actuary of CMS is responsible for providing accounting information and cost-projections to the Medicare Board of Trustees to assist them in assessing the financial health of the program. The Board is required by law to issue annual reports on the financial status of the Medicare Trust Funds, and those reports are required to contain a statement of actuarial opinion by the Chief Actuary.[2][3]

Since the beginning of the Medicare program, CMS has contracted to private companies to assist with administration. These contractors are commonly already in the insurance or health care area. Contracted processes include claims and payment processing, call center services, clinician enrollment, and fraud investigation.


Taxes imposed to finance Medicare
Medicare is partially financed by payroll taxes imposed by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) and the Self-Employment Contributions Act of 1954. In the case of employees, the tax is equal to 2.9% (1.45% withheld from the worker and a matching 1.45% paid by the employer) of the wages, salaries and other compensation in connection with employment. Until December 31, 1993, the law provided a maximum amount of wages, etc., on which the Medicare tax could be imposed each year. Beginning January 1, 1994, the compensation limit was removed. In the case of self-employed individuals, the tax is 2.9% of net earnings from self-employment, and the entire amount is paid by the self-employed individual.


Cost
According to the 2004 "Green Book" of the House Ways and Means Committee, Medicare expenditures from the American government were $256.8 billion in fiscal year 2002. Beneficiary premiums are highly subsidized, and net outlays for the program, accounting for the premiums paid by subscribers, were $230.9 billion.

Medicare spending is growing steadily in both absolute terms and as a percentage of the federal budget. Total Medicare spending reached $440 billion for fiscal year 2007, or 16 percent of all federal spending.
Quote:
http://www1.va.gov/vetdata/docs/4X6_...sharepoint.pdf
Number of Total Enrollees in VA Health Care System (FY 06): 7.9 million

Number of Total Unique Patients Treated (FY 06):5.5 million

FY07 Appropriations (enacted) VHA: $34.5 Billion
Why do only the French, Germans, British, Canadians, etc., get to enjoy living in societies without the oppression that promoters of a military indiustrial complex, like the one enslaving us, claim, through shrill organs like the editorial page of Investors BS Daily, is so f*cking wonderful for all of us, when it clearly only benefits them, and not us?
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:26 AM   #35 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0f3n
I don't usually post in this forum so I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but the VA is a shining example of the efficacy of a government-run, self-contained health care system.
You have obviously never worked at a VA hospital. Gross incompetence is a good description and unless there is a draft only the worst doctors work at the average VA, if you are lucky you will get a good resident, but if they are old and there, god help ya.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:01 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
You have obviously never worked at a VA hospital. Gross incompetence is a good description and unless there is a draft only the worst doctors work at the average VA, if you are lucky you will get a good resident, but if they are old and there, god help ya.
So, Ustwo, are you saying that military veterans in the UK and in Canada, are much more likely to receive more competent physician care than in the US, if all veterans in the three countries, are seeking the same thing, medical care, due to them as a benefit earned in service to their country?
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
Easy Rider
 
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Location: Moscow on the Ohio
Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0f3n
Any health care scheme is going to have problems, and mandating privatized insurance is fraught with them, but it's a start, it is an improvement over what we have currently, and given the last 20 years of legislation I believe this is the best that can be done right now.
You are probably right since many of our representatives would be reluctant to loose the insurance money and many people who have coverage with their employers are content with their low co-pays. Also I suspect that the drug companies are doing great with the current system and would not wish to rock the boat.

However once the decision is made to provide care for everyone then keeping the insurance companies in the loop seems almost like a protection scheme and would rake in billions of dollars which could probably be better spent. The insurance companies seem to be trying to keep costs down by negotiating prices, refusing claims whenever possible and denying coverage to people with existing health problems but costs continue to rise faster than inflation.

The question is will total government control make things any better or do we need the insurance companies to continue their role as the middleman to try and control the prices that health care providers charge..
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
So, Ustwo, are you saying that military veterans in the UK and in Canada, are much more likely to receive more competent physician care than in the US, if all veterans in the three countries, are seeking the same thing, medical care, due to them as a benefit earned in service to their country?
Nice try but since everyone in Canada pays an insane amount of their tax dollars for their 'free' health care, the systems are not comparable as a tit for tat. One is a benefit of service, one is an imposed universal system. As for the quality of the Canadian system vrs the VA, I don't know, I never worked in a Canadian hospital. I do know I'd take my cheaper insurance paid for health care in the US over Canada, but thats because I like private hospitals where they have competition to where you go. I rather doubt their are adds for hospitals in Canada like the US.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:51 PM   #39 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
...everyone in Canada pays an insane amount of their tax dollars for their 'free' health care..
How much exactly? Per income bracket? Now compare that to American private healthcare costs. Huh, we in the US still pay a lot more. Why do you suppose that is? And why did health insurance costs go up 36% between 2000 and 2004? I don't suppose inflation was going at that rate. Actually, the dollar was losing value.

Edit: Ah, found my old link. The US pays $5,711 per capita for healthcare. Canada? About half that at $2,989.

Last edited by Willravel; 01-19-2008 at 07:10 PM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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That chart is misleading and doesn't really mean anything to the average tax payers. I provide health care for my employees and yet that would show up on your chart the same way a tax would on my employees as its just % of GDP.

Quote:
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...tml?cmp=EM8705
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