Obama the perfect candidate? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ratbastid · 01-13-2008, 06:12 AM

I'll say it again--NASA is a red herring. And I'm a BIG space nerd. In sixth grade I could just about tell you the name of every major system on the Shuttle, okay? I'm into this stuff and I WANT US aerospace to lead the world. But unless we fix our education system and our economy, before long we'll be unable to afford solid rocket fuel to launch our fancy shiny new orbiters. NASA just CAN'T be a priority right now, not with the other things we're facing as a nation.

josh, your point is well taken about our space program as a point of pride and inspiration. God knows it was for me, as a kid. But it's just Maslow's Heirarchy (that's right, I went there). Basic needs need to be dealt with before things like self-actualization and pride. And our basic needs--economy, infrastructure, education--have been left to fall completely apart by our current war-obsessed administration, and something needs to be done about them before we're a third world country.

joshbaumgartner · 01-13-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'll say it again--NASA is a red herring. And I'm a BIG space nerd. In sixth grade I could just about tell you the name of every major system on the Shuttle, okay? I'm into this stuff and I WANT US aerospace to lead the world. But unless we fix our education system and our economy, before long we'll be unable to afford solid rocket fuel to launch our fancy shiny new orbiters. NASA just CAN'T be a priority right now, not with the other things we're facing as a nation.

josh, your point is well taken about our space program as a point of pride and inspiration. God knows it was for me, as a kid. But it's just Maslow's Heirarchy (that's right, I went there). Basic needs need to be dealt with before things like self-actualization and pride. And our basic needs--economy, infrastructure, education--have been left to fall completely apart by our current war-obsessed administration, and something needs to be done about them before we're a third world country.

I do understand that all too well. It is hard to sell someone on a space exploration project when they aren't able to get their kid into the doctor, they are commuting on a crumbling infrastructure, can hardly afford to fill their tank, and are not sure when their job will be shipped overseas.

Ending our excessive spending on war is the key, not stripping things like NASA. We are reaching towards $700 billion in war spending while NASA is at $16 billion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu 2:2-6 (~500BC)

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with prolonged warfare.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

Now I'm sure the Administration is thinking this is 'soooo pre-9/11', but it still holds true.

Ustwo · 01-13-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner

I do understand that all too well. It is hard to sell someone on a space exploration project when they aren't able to get their kid into the doctor, they are commuting on a crumbling infrastructure, can hardly afford to fill their tank, and are not sure when their job will be shipped overseas.

Melodramatic overstatement.

This is not the average voter, average democrat voter, or even average socialist voter.

This is a pile of buzzwords and 'issues' put into a warm mass in order to make a point that doesn't really exist.

Oddly I didn't see the bread lines as I drove past the shanty town in my H2, but I had to avoid those sick children dying in the street so I might not have been paying much attention, its hard enough with the pot holes

ratbastid · 01-13-2008, 07:46 PM

Just because the road between your nice middle-class house and your nice dental office is lined with flowers, Ustwo, don't make the mistake of thinking the American Dream is working out for everybody.

Willravel · 01-13-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Melodramatic overstatement.

This is not the average voter, average democrat voter, or even average socialist voter.

The median income in the US for 2006: $48,000 per year. 12.7% of all households fell below the federal poverty threshold and the bottom 20% earned less than $23,202. So you think NONE of those in the lower 20% vote?

I probably earn less than you. I make more than most people my age.

supersix2 · 01-13-2008, 09:27 PM

Wow, this is ridiculous, I can't believe how many people go for this leftist rhetoric about starving sick kids who can't get a good education. Is there poor people in this country? Yes. Is it the governments responsibility to give handouts to every single one of them in the hopes that they will change their lives drastically and actually improve? No.

The problem with all these little social programs is that they don't actually do anything to boost people's place in society. Why is this? Because most of the people who rely on these programs are beyond help. They need to help themselves before any government entity can help them. I'm frankly sick of wasting money are resources on them. I'm also sick of wasting money, resources and lives on a pointless and futile war. Finally, I'm sick of wasting time, money, and resources on short sighted "band-aid" fixes to our major problems. The kind of leadership we need is one who will actually set long term goals to fix our problems. You want to improve education in this country? Hire good competent teachers and pay them accordingly, offer actual incentives when they perform like any other job in this country. You want to cut down on carbon emissions and have affordable energy for the masses? Actually fund alternative energy research seriously even if it means cutting out other crap. Our goal should be clean and cheap energy nationwide. You want to help the poor? Crack down on company's who hire illegal immigrants that could be possibly taking the jobs from Americans. Stop outsourcing jobs to other countries. Giving people government checks does not get them out of poverty level jobs and opportunity does.

You can't expect the government to do anything for you, directly. The most direct assistance I've ever gotten from the government is some federal student loans and hell I even have to pay that back with interest. I rely on the government for the passive benefits roads, police, fire fighters, and national security among many others. I don't understand why so many people were either brought up or came to believe the government should do anything more for you. You want healthcare? Get a job that offers it like most people in this country do. You want a retirement fund? Start saving your own damn money. You want money for food, clothes, and entertainment? Get a job. Quit bleeding this country of money. It's selfish to think the government owes you anything directly.

joshbaumgartner · 01-13-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Melodramatic overstatement.

This is not the average voter, average democrat voter, or even average socialist voter.

This is a pile of buzzwords and 'issues' put into a warm mass in order to make a point that doesn't really exist.

Oddly I didn't see the bread lines as I drove past the shanty town in my H2, but I had to avoid those sick children dying in the street so I might not have been paying much attention, its hard enough with the pot holes

Oh Ustwo, you wound me. I might have painted a bit of a picture there, but no harm in that when each bit of it is a very real concern for a very significant number of Americans. And besides, I wasn't even passing judgment on whether it's a valid set of concerns or not, just that when so many Americans do believe it, it is harder to sell them on space programs.

host · 01-13-2008, 11:50 PM

There is no "leftist rhetoric", only the denial of orthodontists wearing rose colored glasses and those blindly loyal to failed Reaganomics:

I am sooooo tired of reading clueless posts on this forum, posted with such confidence, I really, really am tired of it. The Reagan era propaganda about welfare queens in cadillacs and people who don't want to work and only want a government handout and you resent it, and you're not going to permit the government to tax your hard earned money, and blah, blah, blah. Ten thousand people, so far, and it ain't over till the 18th, and a much higher number in the same region than last year for another nearby, new Walmart job Opportunity, waiting in line, in person, hoping to get a below poverty level wage job with an employer with one of the shitiest reputations in the country.

Will you do your homework, before you post, so you don't embarass yourselves, or will you make an effort to study before you post?

The top ten percent control 70 percent of total US wealth, the next 40 percent control 27-1/2 percent, and half this pathetic, fucked country, the "land of opportuntiy in your sparkling deluded, sunshine filled eyes, controls just 2-1/2 percent of total US wealth, and many of those 150 million have a negative net worth, and the equity stake in the homes of the bottom 90 percent is their largest asset, and it is bleeding out.

That is it, that is the story of the US, you can post like it's something else, that it isn't true, keep your car windows rolled up, stay in your bubble, and vote republican....

Consider that the Atlanta region is one of the fastest growing in the US...4 million in 2000, over 5 million residents now. Imagine the conditions of "have nots" in rust belt metropolitan areas, plagued with high heating fuel bills and declining job opportunities:

$10.65 X 40 hrs. X 50 weeks= $21,300.00

Quote:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...ollo_0111.html
10,000 hopefuls keep eyes open for Wal-Mart job

By HELENA OLIVIERO
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 01/11/08
<img src="http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/77/74/image_6474776.jpg">

For the fourth consecutive day, people waited in long lines Thursday for a shot at a job at a new Wal-Mart in DeKalb County, pushing the total number of applicants beyond 10,000.

That's four times the entire population of Avondale Estates, the community next to the planned Memorial Drive store.
Joey Ivansco/AJC
(ENLARGE)
P***** R***** (front) was in line with about 75 people outside the St. Philip AME Church in Decatur before 9 a.m. Thursday to apply for a job at the new Wal-Mart at the old Avondale Mall.

HOW TO APPLY
Must apply in person at St. Philip AME Church, 240 Candler Road, Atlanta. 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Monday through Friday until Jan. 18.

Beginning Monday, after virtually no advertising or any signs, the throngs of hopeful applicants continued to pour into a church converted into a job processing center — all vying for only 350 to 400 available jobs, according to Wal-Mart officials.

The job-seeking frenzy may be a peek into a larger economic picture. A report from the U.S. Labor Department last week indicated a surprising plunge in job creation by private employers in November, with new jobs far below the level needed to keep pace with population growth.

Christine Roberts, a 39-year-old married mother of six, is hoping to get a job at the Wal-Mart deli. Roberts, who has long worked as a nursing assistant in Sandy Springs, wants a job closer to her Decatur home. At the Memorial Drive store, "I could walk to work," she said Thursday after filling out her application.

Wal-Mart has long declined to reveal starting salaries at the store, but reports that the average hourly wage for regular full-time associates is $10.65 an hour.

Kamal Oliver, an employment and training analyst with DeKalb Workforce Development, a county organization that helped facilitate Wal-Mart's job fair this week, said the turnout dwarfed the numbers of job hunters who applied for a job last year at the Wal-Mart on Chamblee Tucker Road in north DeKalb County.

"This says to me that a lot of people are looking for work," he said.

Quote:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...nts-usat_x.htm
Updated 11/22/2005 1:47 AM

Job losses, plant closings cut broad path
By Chris Woodyard and Jenny Clevstrom, USA TODAY
General Motors (GM) eventually will reduce its costs by closing nine big plants in the USA and Canada that manufacture vehicles and components, but the 30,000 job cuts GM plans will hurt some of the communities where the plants are located.

..Age didn't matter. The plant at Doraville, Ga., had been in production since 1947, while the production line that will close in Spring Hill, Tenn., has been operating since only 1990....

...Doraville, Ga. The suburban Atlanta plant, employing 3,076, was running at only 64% capacity last year. It manufactures GM's new line of minivans, including the Saturn Relay and Chevrolet Uplander. GM doesn't advertise the fact, but those vans always were intended as temporary place holders until a thoroughly redesigned line of minivans was ready.

"We are disappointed, but we are not surprised," says Vernon Jones, chief executive of DeKalb County, Ga.

Because the plant doesn't close until 2008, he says there will be time for new employers to take GM's place, and the site could be valuable to other companies.

The Atlanta area expects job gains of more than 20,000 each of the next few years, says Jennifer Zeller of the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce......

Quote:

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=86666
Hapeville Ford Plant Closing

Elaine Reyes Reports

(AP) A Ford Taurus station wagon passes the Atlanta Ford Assembly Plant in a Hapeville, Ga. file photo from Dec. 2, 2005.

Web Editor: Minnie Bridgers
Last Modified: 10/28/2006 9:44:04 AM

The Ford plant in Hapeville is shutting down.

Friday, the last Ford Taurus will roll off the line, and with it, the plant will close. Of 2,000 workers, more than half have already taken a buy-out offer. Another 300 workers will keep their Ford jobs at other plants.

After 18 years here, Durand Finch is headed to Kentucky.

“It’s dying,” Finch said. “But we got plants all over, so you have to transfer and go for what you know."

Kersey is still hoping for one of those slots.

“Right now, that's kind of up in the air,” Kersey said. “We're waiting for some final decisions to be made."

After ten years on the job, Sherry Warth says she doesn't know what's next.

“Who knows what the future's going to hold,” said Warth. “Hopefully, it's going to work out, since I have kids to support."

Friday marks the end of a job here, but many say it's also the end of friendships -- 20 years working side-by-side.

“It’s going to be real sad here for the rest of the week, but we're going to deeply miss each other,” Warth said. “That's what I'm going to miss most -- the people."

The Hapeville plant is one of 14 Ford plants scheduled to close by 2012.

On the map, the new Walmart is near the last "A" in Atlanta, Hapeville is near Hartsfeld-Jackson aiport, and Doraville is just above Peachtree-Dekalb airport.
<img src="http://www.n-georgia.com/atlantamapG.gif">

Sun Tzu · 01-14-2008, 03:39 AM

Ill be honest, and this is very short sighted, the fact he is a democrat immediately turned me off to anything he said, I need to relook my position especially as weird as this election is turning out to be.

Surely this would not turn out to be a bad season of 24... ?

supersix2 · 01-14-2008, 02:46 PM

Well it seems that with the coming Florida primaries, Obama has changed his tune on the space program. Seems a little early in the election to start flip flopping on issues...

Jinn · 01-14-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

There is no "leftist rhetoric", only the denial of orthodontists wearing rose colored glasses and those blindly loyal to failed Reaganomics:

I am sooooo tired of reading clueless posts on this forum, posted with such confidence, I really, really am tired of it. The Reagan era propaganda about welfare queens in cadillacs and people who don't want to work and only want a government handout and you resent it, and you're not going to permit the government to tax your hard earned money, and blah, blah, blah. Ten thousand people, so far, and it ain't over till the 18th, and a much higher number in the same region than last year for another nearby, new Walmart job Opportunity, waiting in line, in person, hoping to get a below poverty level wage job with an employer with one of the shitiest reputations in the country.

Will you do your homework, before you post, so you don't embarass yourselves, or will you make an effort to study before you post?

The top ten percent control 70 percent of total US wealth, the next 40 percent control 27-1/2 percent, and half this pathetic, fucked country, the "land of opportuntiy in your sparkling deluded, sunshine filled eyes, controls just 2-1/2 percent of total US wealth, and many of those 150 million have a negative net worth, and the equity stake in the homes of the bottom 90 percent is their largest asset, and it is bleeding out.

Host - this was all you, not quotes, and it was awesome. I agree almost entirely. The tiny bit I don't agree with is your belief that this is simply ignorance. There are many people who simply do not care about their fellow humans. It could be the top 1% which controlled 99% of all wealth, and they wouldn't give a flying fuck if they were in the top 1%. No matter how many facts you throw at them, their "ignorance" is not ignorance, but a simple lack of empathy.

Ustwo · 01-14-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Host - this was all you, not quotes, and it was awesome. I agree almost entirely. The tiny bit I don't agree with is your belief that this is simply ignorance. There are many people who simply do not care about their fellow humans. It could be the top 1% which controlled 99% of all wealth, and they wouldn't give a flying fuck if they were in the top 1%. No matter how many facts you throw at them, their "ignorance" is not ignorance, but a simple lack of empathy.

Or some of us think that even if that top 1% wealth were 'liberated' aka stolen from those people, after a VERY short period of time things would be worse as there would be less major investment and that money would be spent and gone.

Its like killing all the cattle, you get to feast for a short time and then you starve because there are no new ones.

I have plenty of empathy for my fellow man, what I don't have on is blinders that the wealthy are evil or even uncaring.

What I see is a bunch of 'get even with'em' thought where if I can't be rich neither should anyone else. Jealousy and malice of those who would rather bitch then produce.

Quote:

Will you do your homework, before you post, so you don't embarass yourselves, or will you make an effort to study before you post?

Hey host I'm hiring, 16 an hour starting, do you have any experience in dentistry or running a front desk? I only had 20 applicants and only 10 came for interviews.

There is no revolution coming host, sorry to burst your bubble.

Rather than post anecdotal stuff as if it means anything as 'homework' lets get to it...

Quote:

THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION: DECEMBER 2007

The unemployment rate rose to 5.0 percent in December, while nonfarm payroll
employment was essentially unchanged (+18,000), the Bureau of Labor Statistics of
the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Job growth in several service-pro-
viding industries, including professional and technical services, health care, and
food services, was largely offset by job losses in construction and manufacturing.
Average hourly earnings rose by 7 cents, or 0.4 percent.

5% unemployment for December 2007, why don't YOU do your homework, and post something relevant before getting insulting about embarrassing oneself. Your condescending tone is getting old.

supersix2 · 01-14-2008, 04:04 PM

Its funny, I am nor have I never been in the top 1%. My parents combined never pulled in more than 100k / year until I was going away to college. They saved up a reasonable amount of money to send me but I still had to take out over 80k in student loans.

Now I have a job making 50k a year as an engineer. I pay over $900 / month in student loans, $650 / month for housing plus utilities, and I have to pay the same high gas prices as everyone. Between income tax and social security I get over $200 of my paycheck taken out weekly, thats 10,400 per year. Between all my bills and straight up living expenses I do manage to save some money at the end of the month for my bank account. By no means am I living extravagantly.

Sure I'm not quite at the poverty limit but if I ever had a large expense come up suddenly I would be fairly cleaned out.

Yet because of my salary I am entitled to no special government benefits and I get taxed so heavily it impacts how much I'm personally able to save for my future. Hell if I had the extra $70 a week that gets taken out from social security I'd be able to save an extra 3000 a year that I could invest and actually do something with. Instead I'm paying for a government program that won't even be around when I would finally get to use its benefits. By the time I retire I will have lost over 120,000 to paying for social security. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Usto its funny you mention that, because I see "Help Wanted" signs on plenty of stores yet there are still poor, homeless people walking around.

joshbaumgartner · 01-15-2008, 11:48 PM

FICA is one of our most regressive taxes. Barack had some interesting things to say on taxes tonight in the debate. Simplification of the tax system and elimination of the imbalances figured in prominently into his talk. This bit is from his official literature:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barack Obama

* Provide a “Making Work Pay” Tax Cut for America's Working Families: The American people work longer and harder than those in any other wealthy nation in the world. But their hours are getting longer and their wages aren't getting any higher. In addition they are being squeezed by rising health care, education and energy costs. Rather than relieving the burden on working families, the current administration has provided tax cut after tax cut to the wealthiest Americans and enacted tax breaks for the most well-connected corporations. Barack Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they deserve. Obama will create a new “Making Work Pay” tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. This refundable income tax credit will provide direct relief to American families who face the regressive payroll tax system. It will offset the payroll tax on the first $8,100 of their earnings while still preserving the important principle of a dedicated revenue source for Social Security. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. The tax credit will also provide relief to self-employed small business owners who struggle to pay both the employee and employer portion of the payroll tax. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit offsets some of this self-employment tax as well.

* Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Owning a home is the culmination of the American dream for so many Americans. The tax code is supposed to encourage home ownership with a mortgage interest deduction, but it goes only to people who itemize their tax deductions. Like so much in our tax code, this tilts the scales toward the well-off. The current mortgage interest deduction excludes nearly two-thirds of Americans who do not itemize their taxes. Barack Obama will ensure that anyone with a mortgage, not just the well-off, can take advantage of this tax incentive for homeownership by creating a universal mortgage credit. This 10 percent credit will benefit an additional 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year. Non-itemizers will be eligible for this refundable credit, which will provide the average recipient with approximately $500 per year in tax savings. This tax credit will also help homeowners deal with the uncertain state of the housing market today.

* Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit: In the Illinois State Senate, Obama led the successful effort to create the $100 million Illinois Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). As president, Obama will reward work by increasing the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increasing the benefit available to parents who support their children through child support payments, increasing the benefit for families with three or more children and reducing the EITC marriage penalty which hurts low-income families. Under the Obama plan, full-time workers making minimum wage would get an EITC benefit up to $555, more than three times greater than the $175 benefit they get today. If the workers are responsibly supporting their children on child support, the Obama plan would give those workers a benefit of $1,110. The Obama plan would also increase the EITC benefit for those families that are most likely to be in poverty &endash; families with three or more children.

* Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less Than $50,000:

Since the New Deal we've had a basic understanding in America: If you work hard and pay into the system, you've earned the right to a secure retirement. But too many seniors aren't getting that security, even though they've held up their end of the bargain. Lower and middle income seniors are struggling as their expenses on health and energy skyrocket while their incomes do not keep pace. This strain has been greater since 1993, when taxes on social security benefits were raised. Millions of seniors saw their net benefits go down.

Seniors also had to take on the added strain – and sometimes cost – of filing a complicated tax return. And after going through all of these complicated calculations, many seniors find that they owe little or no tax, meaning that all of the hassle was for naught.

Barack Obama will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This will eliminate any income tax for nearly seven million seniors at a savings of roughly $1,400 each year. For many seniors, this will eliminate the need to hire a tax preparer, resulting in even larger savings.

* Enable Millions of Americans to Complete Tax Returns in 5 Minutes: The tax code has become too complicated. Too many Americans have to pay for expert advice to fill out long forms and comply with complex requirements. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimated in 2004 that it took more than 28 hours for an individual to complete his/her tax filing, and that half of the taxpayers filing the “easy” forms ended up paying a tax preparer to do it for them. Barack Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than 5 minutes. Currently, the IRS receives Americans' financial information directly from employers and banks. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses this information to give taxpayers the option of a pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return to the IRS or online. This will eliminate the need for Americans to hire expensive tax preparers and to gather information that the federal government already has on file. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.

* Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Barack Obama will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university. And by making the tax credit fully refundable, Obama's credit will help low-income families that need it the most. Obama will also ensure that the tax credit is available to families at the time of enrollment by using prior year's tax data to deliver the credit at the time that tuition is due, rather than a year or more later when tax returns are filed.

* Expand the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit: The Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit provides too little relief to families that struggle to afford child care expenses. Currently the credit only covers up to 35 percent of the first $3,000 of child care expenses a family incurs for one child and the first $6,000 for a family with two or more children. And the credit is not refundable, which means that upper-income families disproportionately benefit while families who make under $50,000 a year receive less than a third of the tax credit. Barack Obama will reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable and allowing low-income families to receive up to a 50 percent credit for their child care expenses. Coupled with Obama's “Making Work Pay” tax credit, this proposal will help put more money directly in the pockets of hardworking low and middle-income parents.

Some of these address the 'incentive to work' issue, and I do think that a lot of this is good stuff. Not a total fix of the system by a long shot, but some good ideas.

Ustwo · 01-16-2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner

Some of these address the 'incentive to work' issue, and I do think that a lot of this is good stuff. Not a total fix of the system by a long shot, but some good ideas.

Sounds like he is spending a lot of money and promoting creeping socialism. Once the people paying taxes are no longer a majority of the voters (and its already close if I recall) you can kiss anything resembling fiscal responsibility or 'fairness' goodbye.

The problem with taxes is not enough people pay them. If everyone who voted had to pay at least 10% in taxes you would see a far better more responsible government. I'd also move tax day to voting day, there is a reason its on the other side of the calender.

Sun Tzu · 01-16-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supersix2

Well it seems that with the coming Florida primaries, Obama has changed his tune on the space program. Seems a little early in the election to start flip flopping on issues...

What was/is his tune on the space program?

flstf · 01-16-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner

FICA is one of our most regressive taxes. Barack had some interesting things to say on taxes tonight in the debate. Simplification of the tax system and elimination of the imbalances figured in prominently into his talk. This bit is from his official literature:

Some of these address the 'incentive to work' issue, and I do think that a lot of this is good stuff. Not a total fix of the system by a long shot, but some good ideas.

Without commenting on the merits of each proposal, it seems to me that these will add hundreds of pages to the thousands of pages already in the tax code and add additional complication to tax filing. Each deduction/credit listed will probably require more tax forms to determine eligiblity etc..

It seems to me that the best way to make tax filing simpler is to eliminate deductions and loopholes not add more. Maybe something that could be printed on a postcard like (income = X then taxes = Y) with no deductions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The problem with taxes is not enough people pay them. If everyone who voted had to pay at least 10% in taxes you would see a far better more responsible government. I'd also move tax day to voting day, there is a reason its on the other side of the calender.

I think many poor and middle class people pay way more than 10% (indirectly) even if they pay little income tax because of the embedded taxes in goods and services. Probably the best way to reduce taxes for them would be to eliminate corporate taxes which are added to the cost of everything they buy.

Ustwo · 01-16-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I think many poor and middle class people pay way more than 10% (indirectly) even if they pay little income tax because of the embedded taxes in goods and services. Probably the best way to reduce taxes for them would be to eliminate corporate taxes which are added to the cost of everything they buy.

True, but its out of sigh out of mind. The only 'tax' you see in the price is the local sales tax. Hell if you could just see how much the price of something was due to all the taxes to get it to you, you would see a big change right there.

ratbastid · 01-16-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If everyone who voted had to pay at least 10% in taxes you would see a far better more responsible government.

Man, I want to talk to your accountant. If I only paid 10% in taxes, I'd be one HAPPY DUDE. I'm self-employed, so I "pay twice", but even just the income tax withholding portion of my taxes is well over 10%.

According to the most recent figures I could google (2003), this was the percentage-of-income that the various quintiles are taxed:

Top fifth of earners: 19 percent
Next fifth of earners: 17 percent
Middle fifth of earners: 16 percent
Next fifth of earners: 14 percent
Bottom fifth of earners: 18 percent

Honestly? That's about progressive enough for me. I guess I'd like to see some more relief for the bottom fifth, but they're the majority recipients of government benefits, so maybe it all evens out.

Willravel · 01-16-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Man, I want to talk to your accountant.

He's probably in jail. Or representing Wesley Snipes.

Ustwo · 01-16-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Man, I want to talk to your accountant. If I only paid 10% in taxes, I'd be one HAPPY DUDE. I'm self-employed, so I "pay twice", but even just the income tax withholding portion of my taxes is well over 10%.

According to the most recent figures I could google (2003), this was the percentage-of-income that the various quintiles are taxed:

Top fifth of earners: 19 percent
Next fifth of earners: 17 percent
Middle fifth of earners: 16 percent
Next fifth of earners: 14 percent
Bottom fifth of earners: 18 percent

Honestly? That's about progressive enough for me. I guess I'd like to see some more relief for the bottom fifth, but they're the majority recipients of government benefits, so maybe it all evens out.

Without seeing how they get those numbers, they are meaningless, care to share the source?

Edit: Just looking at pure federal tax rates the numbers don't add up so I'd REALLY like to see that source.

ratbastid · 01-16-2008, 01:27 PM

I found that here: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh012703.shtml

It was the result of very quick googling, I don't necessarily vouch for that data or claim to have done exhaustive research, and I admit that when I saw those figures, I didn't spend much time with the rest of the article. The article at that URL is citing another article in the New York Times (do try to contain your eye-rolling) by economist Daniel Altman, and the cited author seems surprised about those figures.

So, grain of salt, I guess, but that's the first time I'd seen it broken down like that, and I'd be very interested in a comparison of like figures (though probably in another thread).

flstf · 01-16-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I found that here: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh012703.shtml

It was the result of very quick googling, I don't necessarily vouch for that data or claim to have done exhaustive research, and I admit that when I saw those figures, I didn't spend much time with the rest of the article. The article at that URL is citing another article in the New York Times (do try to contain your eye-rolling) by economist Daniel Altman, and the cited author seems surprised about those figures.

So, grain of salt, I guess, but that's the first time I'd seen it broken down like that, and I'd be very interested in a comparison of like figures (though probably in another thread).

I think the percentage for the middle, second and bottom income groups would be more than 50% when you consider all the embedded taxes they pay since the majority of their income is spent on goods and services with little left over.

Byrnison · 01-16-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

...So, grain of salt, I guess, but that's the first time I'd seen it broken down like that, and I'd be very interested in a comparison of like figures (though probably in another thread).

I would be interested in a comparison as well, as I found This article at the Tax Foundation site, which is listed as one of the sources in the chart above. It has much different numbers as to total taxes paid for Fed/State/Local per quintile. Specifically on page 42:

So the question is how these disparate charts came to be, and which is closer to truth? You're right though, it should probably be started in another thread, sorry for the minor threadjack.

joshbaumgartner · 01-16-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

It seems to me that the best way to make tax filing simpler is to eliminate deductions and loopholes not add more. Maybe something that could be printed on a postcard like (income = X then taxes = Y) with no deductions.

Well on that point we are in complete agreement. I am in favor of a simple income tax that is universal and single-schedule. That is there are no loopholes/credits/shelters/etc. All income is eligible and treated the same, no matter how it is earned (wages, cap gains, inherited, won the lottery, whatever). Any two adults that form a household may divide their total income across the two of them. All other forms of taxation, including special-purpose taxes (FICA), specific-item taxes (gasoline, tobacco), tolls, and user fees, should be eliminated entirely.

If this were adopted, any American could with a simple hand-held calculator (some of you smarter folks in your head), based on their income, figure out the exact cost to them (not a guestimate based on averages) of any bit of government spending.

Of course it means nowhere to hide for those who want to enact spending while hiding the burden from voters.

host · 01-17-2008, 01:30 AM

In addition to my objections to Obama on the grounds that he openly commits to plans to increase the size of and spending on the US military, if he is elected, and his lack of experience and the smell of his Resco real estate deal, his recent statement here,

Quote:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...UzMWE4YjI1MmE=
Thursday, January 17, 2008

Obama Praising Reagan? [Mark Hemingway]

At an editorial meeting with the Reno Gazette, Obama speaks about Reagan:

I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times.I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/ronald-reagan
(You can watch the full video: <a href="http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026">here</a> -- the Reagan quote comes in around the 18:50 mark)

The next time you pay at the pump,or think about how easily (unhesitantly)we blundered into Iraq, and how much it has cost us, when you think about treasury debt that has mushroomed from $5.65 trillion in Oct., 2000. to $9.2 trillion, <a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np">this month</a>, when you think about the suburban lifestyle buildout of the last 27 years, the lack of investment in passenger rail and other mass transit infrastructure, and in alternative energy development, the near total dependence on petroleum fueled transpost, and our $850 billion annual trade deficit,aggravated by our daily consumption, with just six percent of world population...of 25 percent of the world'sdaily petroleum output, half of it imported...<h3>ask yourself....am I better off today because, in 1980, the majority of voters turned toward the escape of the Reagan "happy talk", and away from the challenges, hard truths, and proposed solutions in the Carter malaise speech:</h3> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/...ps_crisis.html

Please read it, it's not that lengthy. Our problems are much greater now than when president Carter gave that speech, in 1979. Did Reagan improve or further aggravate any of the challenges and problems that Carter described, or did he lead the country away from confronting and solving them. Optimism is inspirational, compelling....nobody is attracted to an alarmist. Optimism is also infectious, escapist.

Vote for somebody, who at long last, wants to confront and mitigate, as best as can be done, after so many years of denial and neglect, and with so few financial resources and future viability, compared to just seven years ago. Vote for someone with faith in good, accountable government, in government's ability to improve equitable distribution of wealth, political power, and justice. That candidate won't be the most compelling or agreeable speaker, The one who makes you feel like a moth being drawn to a flame will sound and look most compelling. He'll make you feel good.

Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15304689/page/3/
Oct. 22, 2006

SEN. OBAMA:

.....But I think, when I think about great presidents, I think about those who transform how we think about ourselves as a country in fundamental ways so that, that, at the end of their tenure, we have looked and said to ours—that’s who we are. And, and our, our—and for me at least, that means that we have a more expansive view of our democracy, that we’ve included more people into the bounty of this country. And, you know, there are circumstances in which, I would argue, Ronald Reagan was a very successful president, even though I did not agree with him on many issues, partly because at the end of his presidency, people, I think, said, “You know what? We can regain our greatness. Individual responsibility and personal responsibility are important.” And they transformed the culture and not simply promoted one or two particular issues.......

......MR. RUSSERT: You’ve been a United States senator less than two years, you don’t have any executive experience. Are you ready to be president?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I’m not sure anybody is ready to be president before they’re president. You know, ultimately, I trust the judgment of the American people that, in, in any election, they sort it through. And that’s, you know, we have a long and rigorous process, and, you know, should I decide to run, if I ever did decide to run, I’m confident that I’d be run through the paces pretty good, including on MEET THE PRESS........

......and in the past, <h3>indicate that Obama is pandering or he is ignorant about history.</h3> Reagan campaigned on "Vietnam was a noble war", and on a platform of class and ethnic division that appealed to a constituency engaged in an sometimes painful but neccessary and constructive introspection about US foreign and military policy, race relations, and domestic energy consumption and pursuit of alternate energy development. Reagan's message was, "you know what? you don't have to go through any of that, let us close our eyes and concentrate on how great we truly are, and let "the free market" and blind, patriotic "white pride" transport us to a "city on a hill"....and nothing changed no lessons about foreign or military or energy policy were learned, and racewas used as a "wedge" to demonize the least powerful (cadillac driving welfare queens...)... and US treasury debt swelled from $1 trilliion to $2.5 trillion, at then end of eight years of Reagan. Instead of energy independence commitments and legislation launched after Carter's "Malaise" speech, synfuels research was cronyized and dismantled, and solar energy devlopment, financed via government/industry partnerships and grants/tax credits, was sold off....the entire fledging industry, to the petro-corps.

...but we felt great again, militarism was, and is good again, and Gulf war I, and later, Iraq and Afghanistan, were "noble wars", too....and the liberals and the mainstream news media were still forcing the military to fight with one hand tied behind it's back. Oil is $100/bbl. we have no national alternative energy plan, we're vulnerable to the whims of hostile governments of oil exporters in the M.E. , and in our own hemisphere, and the US treasury seems on a deficit spending path to bankruptcy, and the oil price aggravated trade deficit drives the purchasing power of our currency ever downward.

Patriotic Americans are incredulous, that, in such a great country (did I mention that we're at a crisis condition, as far as foreign oil dependence, and it looks like the trade and treasury deficits may drive the dollar to zero value?) some universities resist rebuilding the ROTC buildings their alumni,nearly 40 years ago, as students, burned to the ground?

If you read <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E0DD1730F93AA25752C0A962958260">the determination of Iran Contra prosecutor</a>, Lawrence Walsh, it is clear that Reagan's greatest "gift" was to make the wrongdoing, incompetence, and coverup of the last seven years at the white house, even a possibility. Reagan's Iran/Contra lawbreaking and contempt of congress and towards special prosecutor Walsh and his investigation, was Nixonesque, without the acountability and shame. He ushered in a new era of the unaccountable and shameless executive. After the special prosecutor statute was unleashed to harass Clinton for eight full years, the challenges to it, begun in the Reagan administation as an attack against Lawrence Walsh, was not renewed.

Trickle down, Reagonomics still influences the growing wealth inequity, and the "concession", made by the wealthies....a 30 percent capital gains tax ratein exchange for 1986 "tax reform" which heavily reduced their earned income taxation, and with the wealthiest enjoying an even larger percentage of total capital gains, is just 15 percent today, even less on real estate profits realized on sales of high dollar priced residences.....and Obama admires those "changes", and "change agent", Reagan.

Welcome to 1962, Barak....that is where Mr. Reagan led us back to, not forward.

dc_dux · 01-17-2008, 08:13 PM

For better or worse, Obama is the highest rated Democrat on the God-o-Meter

http://blog.beliefnet.com/godometer/

dc_dux · 01-18-2008, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

In addition to my objections to Obama on the grounds that he openly commits to plans to increase the size of and spending on the US military, if he is elected, and his lack of experience and the smell of his Resco real estate deal, his recent statement here.

I support a strong (but not aggressively proactive) military as well and it will require reinvestment after the debacle in Iraq. But Obama also supports reinvestment in social and other domestic programs and a pay-as-you-go principle, so I dont see spending on defense being out of line.

I also agree with his comment about Reagan being a transformational president. He did not express support for Reagan policy's, simply a recognition that Reagan was able to inspire many Democrats in the electorate to cross party lines (Reagan Democrats). Obama was suggesting that his candidacy can do the same with moderate Republicans (the few remaining) and Independents and I agree, but perhaps it would have come across as less arrogant (or self-confident) if a surrogate had made that comparison.

The real estate deal does not bother me at all. There is nothing there.

pr0f3n · 01-21-2008, 01:09 AM

Barack Obama spoke at Ebenezer Baptist Church today. edit: Full recording at the bottom of the page under heading "Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), Campaign Event in Atlanta, GA"
Full text:

Quote:

The Scripture tells us that when Joshua and the Israelites arrived at the gates of Jericho, they could not enter. The walls of the city were too steep for any one person to climb; too strong to be taken down with brute force. And so they sat for days, unable to pass on through.

But God had a plan for his people. He told them to stand together and march together around the city, and on the seventh day he told them that when they heard the sound of the ram’s horn, they should speak with one voice. And at the chosen hour, when the horn sounded and a chorus of voices cried out together, the mighty walls of Jericho came tumbling down.

There are many lessons to take from this passage, just as there are many lessons to take from this day, just as there are many memories that fill the space of this church. As I was thinking about which ones we need to remember at this hour, my mind went back to the very beginning of the modern Civil Rights Era.

Because before Memphis and the mountaintop; before the bridge in Selma and the march on Washington; before Birmingham and the beatings; the fire hoses and the loss of those four little girls; before there was King the icon and his magnificent dream, there was King the young preacher and a people who found themselves suffering under the yolk of oppression.

And on the eve of the bus boycotts in Montgomery, at a time when many were still doubtful about the possibilities of change, a time when those in the black community mistrusted themselves, and at times mistrusted each other, King inspired with words not of anger, but of an urgency that still speaks to us today:

“Unity is the great need of the hour” is what King said. Unity is how we shall overcome.

What Dr. King understood is that if just one person chose to walk instead of ride the bus, those walls of oppression would not be moved. But maybe if a few more walked, the foundation might start to shake. If a few more women were willing to do what Rosa Parks had done, maybe the cracks would start to show. If teenagers took freedom rides from North to South, maybe a few bricks would come loose. Maybe if white folks marched because they had come to understand that their freedom too was at stake in the impending battle, the wall would begin to sway. And if enough Americans were awakened to the injustice; if they joined together, North and South, rich and poor, Christian and Jew, then perhaps that wall would come tumbling down, and justice would flow like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.

Unity is the great need of the hour – the great need of this hour. Not because it sounds pleasant or because it makes us feel good, but because it’s the only way we can overcome the essential deficit that exists in this country.

I’m not talking about a budget deficit. I’m not talking about a trade deficit. I’m not talking about a deficit of good ideas or new plans.

I’m talking about a moral deficit. I’m talking about an empathy deficit. I’m taking about an inability to recognize ourselves in one another; to understand that we are our brother’s keeper; we are our sister’s keeper; that, in the words of Dr. King, we are all tied together in a single garment of destiny.

We have an empathy deficit when we’re still sending our children down corridors of shame – schools in the forgotten corners of America where the color of your skin still affects the content of your education.

We have a deficit when CEOs are making more in ten minutes than some workers make in ten months; when families lose their homes so that lenders make a profit; when mothers can’t afford a doctor when their children get sick.

We have a deficit in this country when there is Scooter Libby justice for some and Jena justice for others; when our children see nooses hanging from a schoolyard tree today, in the present, in the twenty-first century.

We have a deficit when homeless veterans sleep on the streets of our cities; when innocents are slaughtered in the deserts of Darfur; when young Americans serve tour after tour of duty in a war that should’ve never been authorized and never been waged.

And we have a deficit when it takes a breach in our levees to reveal a breach in our compassion; when it takes a terrible storm to reveal the hungry that God calls on us to feed; the sick He calls on us to care for; the least of these He commands that we treat as our own.

So we have a deficit to close. We have walls – barriers to justice and equality – that must come down. And to do this, we know that unity is the great need of this hour.

Unfortunately, all too often when we talk about unity in this country, we’ve come to believe that it can be purchased on the cheap. We’ve come to believe that racial reconciliation can come easily – that it’s just a matter of a few ignorant people trapped in the prejudices of the past, and that if the demagogues and those who exploit our racial divisions will simply go away, then all our problems would be solved.

All too often, we seek to ignore the profound institutional barriers that stand in the way of ensuring opportunity for all children, or decent jobs for all people, or health care for those who are sick. We long for unity, but are unwilling to pay the price.

But of course, true unity cannot be so easily won. It starts with a change in attitudes – a broadening of our minds, and a broadening of our hearts.

It’s not easy to stand in somebody else’s shoes. It’s not easy to see past our differences. We’ve all encountered this in our own lives. But what makes it even more difficult is that we have a politics in this country that seeks to drive us apart – that puts up walls between us.

We are told that those who differ from us on a few things are different from us on all things; that our problems are the fault of those who don’t think like us or look like us or come from where we do. The welfare queen is taking our tax money. The immigrant is taking our jobs. The believer condemns the non-believer as immoral, and the non-believer chides the believer as intolerant.

For most of this country’s history, we in the African American community have been at the receiving end of man’s inhumanity to man. And all of us understand intimately the insidious role that race still sometimes plays – on the job, in the schools, in our health care system and in our criminal justice system.

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity.

Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation.

So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scapegoating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others – all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face – war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late.

Because if Dr. King could love his jailor; if he could call on the faithful who once sat where you do to forgive those who set dogs and fire hoses upon them, then surely we can look past what divides us in our time, and bind up our wounds, and erase the empathy deficit that exists in our hearts.

But if changing our hearts and minds is the first critical step, we cannot stop there. It is not enough to bemoan the plight of poor children in this country and remain unwilling to push our elected officials to provide the resources to fix our schools. It is not enough to decry the disparities of health care and yet allow the insurance companies and the drug companies to block much-needed reforms. It is not enough for us to abhor the costs of a misguided war, and yet allow ourselves to be driven by a politics of fear that sees the threat of attack as way to scare up votes instead of a call to come together around a common effort.

The Scripture tells us that we are judged not just by word, but by deed. And if we are to truly bring about the unity that is so crucial in this time, we must find it within ourselves to act on what we know; to understand that living up to this country’s ideals and its possibilities will require great effort and resources; sacrifice and stamina.

And that is what is at stake in the great political debate we are having today. The changes that are needed are not just a matter of tinkering at the edges, and they will not come if politicians simply tell us what we want to hear. All of us will be called upon to make some sacrifice. None of us will be exempt from responsibility. We will have to fight to fix our schools, but we will also have to challenge ourselves to be better parents. We will have to confront the biases in our criminal justice system, but we will also have to acknowledge the deep-seated violence that still resides in our own communities and marshal the will to break its grip.

That is how we will bring about the change we seek. That is how Dr. King led this country through the wilderness. He did it with words – words that he spoke not just to the children of slaves, but the children of slave owners. Words that inspired not just black but also white; not just the Christian but the Jew; not just the Southerner but also the Northerner.

He led with words, but he also led with deeds. He also led by example. He led by marching and going to jail and suffering threats and being away from his family. He led by taking a stand against a war, knowing full well that it would diminish his popularity. He led by challenging our economic structures, understanding that it would cause discomfort. Dr. King understood that unity cannot be won on the cheap; that we would have to earn it through great effort and determination.

That is the unity – the hard-earned unity – that we need right now. It is that effort, and that determination, that can transform blind optimism into hope – the hope to imagine, and work for, and fight for what seemed impossible before.

The stories that give me such hope don’t happen in the spotlight. They don’t happen on the presidential stage. They happen in the quiet corners of our lives. They happen in the moments we least expect. Let me give you an example of one of those stories.

There is a young, 23-year-old white woman named Ashley Baia who organizes for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She’s been working to organize a mostly African American community since the beginning of this campaign, and the other day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that’s when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.

She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.

So Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they’re supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who’s been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he’s there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, “I am here because of Ashley.”

By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

But it is where we begin. It is why the walls in that room began to crack and shake.

And if they can shake in that room, they can shake in Atlanta.

And if they can shake in Atlanta, they can shake in Georgia.

And if they can shake in Georgia, they can shake all across America. And if enough of our voices join together; we can bring those walls tumbling down. The walls of Jericho can finally come tumbling down. That is our hope – but only if we pray together, and work together, and march together.

Brothers and sisters, we cannot walk alone.

In the struggle for peace and justice, we cannot walk alone.

In the struggle for opportunity and equality, we cannot walk alone

In the struggle to heal this nation and repair this world, we cannot walk alone.

So I ask you to walk with me, and march with me, and join your voice with mine, and together we will sing the song that tears down the walls that divide us, and lift up an America that is truly indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all. May God bless the memory of the great pastor of this church, and may God bless the United States of America.

Jinn · 02-04-2008, 08:51 AM

New video about Obama, "Yes we Can" by will.i.am

I realize that it's definitely propaganda, but I like it a lot considering the OP ("Obama the perfect candidate")?

It seems like the support for him is going up exponentially every day.

Polar · 02-05-2008, 01:40 PM

It comes down to this...

As long as you listen only to his rhetoric and ignore his voting record and lack of leadership experience, Obama is indeed the perfect candidate.

pr0f3n · 02-05-2008, 02:16 PM

As long as you ignore his extensive legislative record and pretend being the spouse of a governor and president counts as leadership experience, I can see your point of view.

Jinn · 03-17-2008, 12:50 PM

Another video I came across called "Barack Obama and Tolerance Fatigue" which I think was particularly telling:

The speaker is from illdoctrine.com, and he's got some very cool videos on his site too, if you're tempted to check it out.

robot_parade · 03-17-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'll say it again--NASA is a red herring. And I'm a BIG space nerd. In sixth grade I could just about tell you the name of every major system on the Shuttle, okay? I'm into this stuff and I WANT US aerospace to lead the world. But unless we fix our education system and our economy, before long we'll be unable to afford solid rocket fuel to launch our fancy shiny new orbiters. NASA just CAN'T be a priority right now, not with the other things we're facing as a nation.

josh, your point is well taken about our space program as a point of pride and inspiration. God knows it was for me, as a kid. But it's just Maslow's Heirarchy (that's right, I went there). Basic needs need to be dealt with before things like self-actualization and pride. And our basic needs--economy, infrastructure, education--have been left to fall completely apart by our current war-obsessed administration, and something needs to be done about them before we're a third world country.

I understand what you're saying, and to some point, I agree. However:

o You're *never* going to fix all of the problems 'back here on Earth'. There will always be things we could spend money on.

o The 'spend money here at home first' argument seems to always be brought up whenever you talk about NASA's budget, but almost never when talking about other expenditures.

NASA's annual budget is about 17 billion dollars. that's a lot. The budget for the US military is about 430 billion dollars. That's not counting most of the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our military budget is bigger than the rest of the world's. The rest of the world *combined*. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a military. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the best military in the world.

Not to mention the fact that NASA does *real science* that not only has long-term benefits (we're eventually going to have to move off this ball of dirt), but short-term practical benefits. Ask Google if you don't believe me.

It's like investing - you take care of your immediate needs, but you also invest for the medium and long term. Yes we have to take care of our immediate needs, but we also have to take care of the long term, and NASA is a part of that.

Now, OTOH, dollar for dollar, robotic missions are a much bigger payoff than manned missions. They aren't as sexy, but it costs a hell of a lot to support a man in space. We should definitely have a manned space program (we're going to have to learn to live up there sooner or later), but the robotic programs should get their due.

Jinn · 03-18-2008, 11:07 AM

An interesting set of facts that I just found in Barack's wikpiedia entry-- I had no idea he had so many awards and recognitions:

An October 2005 article in the British journal New Statesman listed Obama as one of "10 people who could change the world," the only politician included on the list. In 2005 and again in 2007, Time magazine named him one of "the world's most influential people." During his first three years in the U.S. Senate, Obama received Honorary Doctorates of Law from Knox College (2005),University of Massachusetts Boston (2006), Northwestern University (2006), Xavier University of Louisiana (2006), Southern New Hampshire University (2007), and Howard University (2007). The audiobook edition of Dreams from My Father earned Obama the Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album in 2006. He won the award a second time in 2008 for the spoken word edition of The Audacity of Hope. A school in Obama's father's hometown, which the senator visited on his 2006 Kenya trip, was renamed the "Senator Barack Obama Primary School."

host · 03-18-2008, 11:16 AM

This is starting to seem too much like the Ron Paul thread, more like an admiration society than a political discussion thread.

This is a big, very wealthy country with many, many talented well educated people. The republican and two democratice presidential frontrunners all strike me as very flawed, controversial individuals.

Obama's Rezko relationship and financial "arrangements" with Rezko, along with his advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel, do not impress me.

I see a growing sentiment on this forum that is much more emotionally than detail driven, in favor of Obama, coming from people who I usually am in agreement with. My advice is to slow down. Take Obama and Clinton with a grain of salt, and much reluctance. Be resigned to one of them winning the november election, not creaming your jeans over the sheer possibility.

Just my two cents.

Jinn · 03-18-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Obama's Rezko relationship and financial "arrangements" with Rezko, along with his advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel, do not impress me.

I don't count Rezko's association as anything but conserative slander alike with Wright's association, as a away to attack a man through his associates' behavior.

But the "advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel" I'd like to see. Got a link?

ratbastid · 03-18-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

But the "advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel" I'd like to see. Got a link?

I don't know where he got the 90,000 military increase business, but I believe by "advocacy of preemptive military strikes", host is refering to Obama's statement that if Bin Laden is conclusively proven to be in Pakistan, and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take action to capture him, that we should. He said, "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."

In certain conservative quarters, it was claimed that Obama wants to invade Pakistan, which he didn't say.

host · 03-18-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I don't count Rezko's association as anything but conserative slander alike with Wright's association, as a away to attack a man through his associates' behavior.

But the "advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel" I'd like to see. Got a link?

I did a thread here on this...criticizing the stances of all three democratic candidates, at that time in the campaign:

Barak is quoted from an article attributed to him, published 9 months ago in the CFR magazine. It's in the second to last quote box in this OP:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ip+barak+obama

Quote:

From the second page of Obama's CFR magazine article, in the last two paragraphs:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/200707...eadership.html

....We must use this moment both to rebuild our military and to prepare it for the missions of the future. . . . We should expand our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to the army and 27,000 marines. . . .

I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened.....

There were replies defending Obama for wanting to "rebuild our worn out military". He wants to withdraw our troops from Iraq, ASAP. Most will come home, some will be reassigned to duty in Afghanistan. I am not at all clear as to how a plan to add 92,000 ground troops to the current existing forces would "rebuild" our military. Wouldn't that be accomplished by bringing 90,000 of the troops now in Iraq home to rest and recover, and by shipping some of their equipment back to the US be overhauled, repaired, and maintained, and by replacing what is not returned or is beyond repair?

Wouldn't the costs of increasing the size of the ground force by 92,000, nearly 20 percent more, along with the costs of rebuilding the worn out physical plant and for caring for the returning troops, trigger even higher, fixed costs of the military, i.e., a permanently escalating budget?

And the idea of

Quote:

.....to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened..........

Didn't we always have a policy against preemptive use of force, because it avoided situations like invading a country that was found not to have WMD or WMD programs, and was not the "imminent threat" to our national security that we were assured that it was?

ratbastid · 03-26-2008, 02:55 PM

I saw Obama in person today. It was quite an experience. He's pretty good on the screen, but he's DAMN good in person.

We got there right at the time they said they were opening the doors, 11:00 am, and there was already a line LITERALLY half a mile long. It went across the atrium of the auditorium, across the front of the major sports arena next door, and down the next street. We walked back up the line to get to the end of it.. and it just kept GOING. It was amazing. I was pretty damn proud of my home town to see that kind of turnout. There was some consternation, half a mile back the line, about everyone with a ticket getting in, but by the time we got seated there were probably 200 or 300 seats left.
The auditorium, which seats about 2500, was packed, and there were several hundred people in an overflow area watching on closed-circuit TV.

It was a "town hall meeting"-style event. He started with some remarks ("I'm not going to make a long speech... and you KNOW I can make a long speech...") and then took questions. His speech was largely about health care and the economy. He touched on Iraq and, since this is a college town, his education policy. It wasn't anything that people who've been following his campaign don't already know, but it was interesting to hear it all in one piece rather than as a series of sound bytes.

What was remarkable about this speech was the way he handled his opponents. He attacked McCain directly for his economy speech yesterday--the one where he basically said that the government shouldn't be in the business of bailing out companies or homeowners. But when it came to Clinton, he was VERY respectful. He complimented her on her intelligence and competency, and pointed to differences in their policy. A MARKEDLY different tone than the one Hillary strikes when talking about him, and a big part of why I'm interested in him as our president.

Then he took questions, which I felt were largely fairly uninteresting, or which asked things he'd already answered in his speech. A couple of exceptions: a student at a small private baptist college, who says he gets a lot of grief for his vocal support of Obama, asked him to expand on the impact of his faith on his leadership and positions. Obama replied that he is a christian--by which he means that he believes that Christ died for his sins, and that through His grace, he can reach everlasting life. He went on to say that his belief in Christianity means that he is to respect people of every faith, including people of no faith. He said his late mother was not a religious person, but was one of the best, kindest people he's ever known, and he's sure she's in heaven. He said that all people, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, nonbeliever, whatever, are God's children. Standing ovation.

Another man asked about Obama's energy policy--particularly where he stands on alternatives to gas-burning automobiles as our nation's primary mode of transport. Obama replied that a big part of his energy policy includes working with US automakers to build environmentally friendly and sustainable vehicles. He likened it to the Apollo Program or the Manhattan Project. He said it's crucial for our economy AND our foreign policy that we break our dependence on oil, and Detroit is the place to do that.

He concluded by thanking us for our support, and urging us to get everybody we know registered to vote ("your mom, your dad.... your cousin Pookie... get Ray-Ray registered, you know..."). He said, and I paraphrase, "I'm not a perfect man, and I won't be a perfect president. But with the American people at my back, there's nothing we can't accomplish together. I promise to always tell you the truth. I promise to always tell you what I think. I promise to listen to you when we disagree--and we will disagree. I promise to take your voice and your story and your fight to Washington, and I promise that together we'll bring the change we want to see." Standing ovation.

From my balcony seat, I then watched him step down off the stage and shake hands with the LARGE crush of people on the main floor. I watch the man LITERALLY kiss a baby, for pete's sake!

Pretty incredible afternoon.

01-14-2008, 03:39 AM	#49 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Ill be honest, and this is very short sighted, the fact he is a democrat immediately turned me off to anything he said, I need to relook my position especially as weird as this election is turning out to be. Surely this would not turn out to be a bad season of 24... ? __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

01-17-2008, 08:13 PM	#67 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	For better or worse, Obama is the highest rated Democrat on the God-o-Meter http://blog.beliefnet.com/godometer/ __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

02-04-2008, 08:51 AM	#70 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	New video about Obama, "Yes we Can" by will.i.am I realize that it's definitely propaganda, but I like it a lot considering the OP ("Obama the perfect candidate")? It seems like the support for him is going up exponentially every day. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

02-05-2008, 02:16 PM	#72 (permalink)
pr0f3n Crazy Location: a little to the right	As long as you ignore his extensive legislative record and pretend being the spouse of a governor and president counts as leadership experience, I can see your point of view. __________________ In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Friedrich Nietzsche

03-17-2008, 12:50 PM	#73 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Another video I came across called "Barack Obama and Tolerance Fatigue" which I think was particularly telling: The speaker is from illdoctrine.com, and he's got some very cool videos on his site too, if you're tempted to check it out. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

01-13-2008, 06:12 AM	#41 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I'll say it again--NASA is a red herring. And I'm a BIG space nerd. In sixth grade I could just about tell you the name of every major system on the Shuttle, okay? I'm into this stuff and I WANT US aerospace to lead the world. But unless we fix our education system and our economy, before long we'll be unable to afford solid rocket fuel to launch our fancy shiny new orbiters. NASA just CAN'T be a priority right now, not with the other things we're facing as a nation. josh, your point is well taken about our space program as a point of pride and inspiration. God knows it was for me, as a kid. But it's just Maslow's Heirarchy (that's right, I went there). Basic needs need to be dealt with before things like self-actualization and pride. And our basic needs--economy, infrastructure, education--have been left to fall completely apart by our current war-obsessed administration, and something needs to be done about them before we're a third world country.

01-13-2008, 07:46 PM	#44 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Just because the road between your nice middle-class house and your nice dental office is lined with flowers, Ustwo, don't make the mistake of thinking the American Dream is working out for everybody.

01-13-2008, 09:27 PM	#46 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	Wow, this is ridiculous, I can't believe how many people go for this leftist rhetoric about starving sick kids who can't get a good education. Is there poor people in this country? Yes. Is it the governments responsibility to give handouts to every single one of them in the hopes that they will change their lives drastically and actually improve? No. The problem with all these little social programs is that they don't actually do anything to boost people's place in society. Why is this? Because most of the people who rely on these programs are beyond help. They need to help themselves before any government entity can help them. I'm frankly sick of wasting money are resources on them. I'm also sick of wasting money, resources and lives on a pointless and futile war. Finally, I'm sick of wasting time, money, and resources on short sighted "band-aid" fixes to our major problems. The kind of leadership we need is one who will actually set long term goals to fix our problems. You want to improve education in this country? Hire good competent teachers and pay them accordingly, offer actual incentives when they perform like any other job in this country. You want to cut down on carbon emissions and have affordable energy for the masses? Actually fund alternative energy research seriously even if it means cutting out other crap. Our goal should be clean and cheap energy nationwide. You want to help the poor? Crack down on company's who hire illegal immigrants that could be possibly taking the jobs from Americans. Stop outsourcing jobs to other countries. Giving people government checks does not get them out of poverty level jobs and opportunity does. You can't expect the government to do anything for you, directly. The most direct assistance I've ever gotten from the government is some federal student loans and hell I even have to pay that back with interest. I rely on the government for the passive benefits roads, police, fire fighters, and national security among many others. I don't understand why so many people were either brought up or came to believe the government should do anything more for you. You want healthcare? Get a job that offers it like most people in this country do. You want a retirement fund? Start saving your own damn money. You want money for food, clothes, and entertainment? Get a job. Quit bleeding this country of money. It's selfish to think the government owes you anything directly.

01-14-2008, 02:46 PM	#50 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	Well it seems that with the coming Florida primaries, Obama has changed his tune on the space program. Seems a little early in the election to start flip flopping on issues...

01-14-2008, 04:04 PM	#53 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	Its funny, I am nor have I never been in the top 1%. My parents combined never pulled in more than 100k / year until I was going away to college. They saved up a reasonable amount of money to send me but I still had to take out over 80k in student loans. Now I have a job making 50k a year as an engineer. I pay over $900 / month in student loans, $650 / month for housing plus utilities, and I have to pay the same high gas prices as everyone. Between income tax and social security I get over $200 of my paycheck taken out weekly, thats 10,400 per year. Between all my bills and straight up living expenses I do manage to save some money at the end of the month for my bank account. By no means am I living extravagantly. Sure I'm not quite at the poverty limit but if I ever had a large expense come up suddenly I would be fairly cleaned out. Yet because of my salary I am entitled to no special government benefits and I get taxed so heavily it impacts how much I'm personally able to save for my future. Hell if I had the extra $70 a week that gets taken out from social security I'd be able to save an extra 3000 a year that I could invest and actually do something with. Instead I'm paying for a government program that won't even be around when I would finally get to use its benefits. By the time I retire I will have lost over 120,000 to paying for social security. Doesn't make much sense to me. Usto its funny you mention that, because I see "Help Wanted" signs on plenty of stores yet there are still poor, homeless people walking around.

01-16-2008, 01:27 PM	#62 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I found that here: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh012703.shtml It was the result of very quick googling, I don't necessarily vouch for that data or claim to have done exhaustive research, and I admit that when I saw those figures, I didn't spend much time with the rest of the article. The article at that URL is citing another article in the New York Times (do try to contain your eye-rolling) by economist Daniel Altman, and the cited author seems surprised about those figures. So, grain of salt, I guess, but that's the first time I'd seen it broken down like that, and I'd be very interested in a comparison of like figures (though probably in another thread).

02-05-2008, 01:40 PM	#71 (permalink)
Polar Upright	It comes down to this... As long as you listen only to his rhetoric and ignore his voting record and lack of leadership experience, Obama is indeed the perfect candidate.

03-18-2008, 11:07 AM	#75 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	An interesting set of facts that I just found in Barack's wikpiedia entry-- I had no idea he had so many awards and recognitions: An October 2005 article in the British journal New Statesman listed Obama as one of "10 people who could change the world," the only politician included on the list. In 2005 and again in 2007, Time magazine named him one of "the world's most influential people." During his first three years in the U.S. Senate, Obama received Honorary Doctorates of Law from Knox College (2005),University of Massachusetts Boston (2006), Northwestern University (2006), Xavier University of Louisiana (2006), Southern New Hampshire University (2007), and Howard University (2007). The audiobook edition of Dreams from My Father earned Obama the Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album in 2006. He won the award a second time in 2008 for the spoken word edition of The Audacity of Hope. A school in Obama's father's hometown, which the senator visited on his 2006 Kenya trip, was renamed the "Senator Barack Obama Primary School." __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-18-2008, 11:16 AM	#76 (permalink)
host Banned	This is starting to seem too much like the Ron Paul thread, more like an admiration society than a political discussion thread. This is a big, very wealthy country with many, many talented well educated people. The republican and two democratice presidential frontrunners all strike me as very flawed, controversial individuals. Obama's Rezko relationship and financial "arrangements" with Rezko, along with his advocacy of preemptive military strikes and increasing the US military ground forces by 90,000 personnel, do not impress me. I see a growing sentiment on this forum that is much more emotionally than detail driven, in favor of Obama, coming from people who I usually am in agreement with. My advice is to slow down. Take Obama and Clinton with a grain of salt, and much reluctance. Be resigned to one of them winning the november election, not creaming your jeans over the sheer possibility. Just my two cents.

03-26-2008, 02:55 PM	#80 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I saw Obama in person today. It was quite an experience. He's pretty good on the screen, but he's DAMN good in person. We got there right at the time they said they were opening the doors, 11:00 am, and there was already a line LITERALLY half a mile long. It went across the atrium of the auditorium, across the front of the major sports arena next door, and down the next street. We walked back up the line to get to the end of it.. and it just kept GOING. It was amazing. I was pretty damn proud of my home town to see that kind of turnout. There was some consternation, half a mile back the line, about everyone with a ticket getting in, but by the time we got seated there were probably 200 or 300 seats left. The auditorium, which seats about 2500, was packed, and there were several hundred people in an overflow area watching on closed-circuit TV. It was a "town hall meeting"-style event. He started with some remarks ("I'm not going to make a long speech... and you KNOW I can make a long speech...") and then took questions. His speech was largely about health care and the economy. He touched on Iraq and, since this is a college town, his education policy. It wasn't anything that people who've been following his campaign don't already know, but it was interesting to hear it all in one piece rather than as a series of sound bytes. What was remarkable about this speech was the way he handled his opponents. He attacked McCain directly for his economy speech yesterday--the one where he basically said that the government shouldn't be in the business of bailing out companies or homeowners. But when it came to Clinton, he was VERY respectful. He complimented her on her intelligence and competency, and pointed to differences in their policy. A MARKEDLY different tone than the one Hillary strikes when talking about him, and a big part of why I'm interested in him as our president. Then he took questions, which I felt were largely fairly uninteresting, or which asked things he'd already answered in his speech. A couple of exceptions: a student at a small private baptist college, who says he gets a lot of grief for his vocal support of Obama, asked him to expand on the impact of his faith on his leadership and positions. Obama replied that he is a christian--by which he means that he believes that Christ died for his sins, and that through His grace, he can reach everlasting life. He went on to say that his belief in Christianity means that he is to respect people of every faith, including people of no faith. He said his late mother was not a religious person, but was one of the best, kindest people he's ever known, and he's sure she's in heaven. He said that all people, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, nonbeliever, whatever, are God's children. Standing ovation. Another man asked about Obama's energy policy--particularly where he stands on alternatives to gas-burning automobiles as our nation's primary mode of transport. Obama replied that a big part of his energy policy includes working with US automakers to build environmentally friendly and sustainable vehicles. He likened it to the Apollo Program or the Manhattan Project. He said it's crucial for our economy AND our foreign policy that we break our dependence on oil, and Detroit is the place to do that. He concluded by thanking us for our support, and urging us to get everybody we know registered to vote ("your mom, your dad.... your cousin Pookie... get Ray-Ray registered, you know..."). He said, and I paraphrase, "I'm not a perfect man, and I won't be a perfect president. But with the American people at my back, there's nothing we can't accomplish together. I promise to always tell you the truth. I promise to always tell you what I think. I promise to listen to you when we disagree--and we will disagree. I promise to take your voice and your story and your fight to Washington, and I promise that together we'll bring the change we want to see." Standing ovation. From my balcony seat, I then watched him step down off the stage and shake hands with the LARGE crush of people on the main floor. I watch the man LITERALLY kiss a baby, for pete's sake! Pretty incredible afternoon.