tecoyah

This post is a copy of something I just wrote in GD...but I would like opinions:

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

highthief

I'm all for limiting the length of replies to X-number of words.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

dc_dux

Its clear to me that there are many here who would rather attack the messenger (host) than respond to the message in his substantive posts.

Charges of "elitism" and overreacting in an emotional breakdown to the opinions of others is hardly constructive.

Neither is an immature expression of pride in "poking the cage."

So the proposed solution is to restrict a member's manner of contributing to the forum.

Nope...not for me.

I'm all for leaving the forum completely.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

Sounds like "dumbing it down", to me....and it both vindicates and further encourages the practitioners of the art of the "drive by, one liner". It's a biiiigggg INTERNET.....so, we are fortunate to have the opportunity to live in a time of unprecedented "information availability at our fingertips".

Even with that opportunity, we observe that a sizeable portion of the posters on the politics thread eschew obtaining their sources of information from the established "news media", from sources of original quotes, and from webpages as relevant and unequivocal as "whitehouse.gov".

Instead, they obtain the information that "helps" them to "know what they know", from websites that "filter" the news of the day, "for" them.

A half hour review of existing threads on the politics forum, tecoyah, will leave anyone who samples the content of the actual "discussion" agreeing that those posters who regularly disagree with my opinions, for example, more often than not, refuse to post links to webpages supporting their key points.

The reason I think this is so, is because, although they continue to obtain their opinion shaping information from the same websites they are in the habit of obtaining it from, they are increasingly reluctant to admit it. Could it be because linked quotes of the POTUS, the VP, or their press secretary, from pages at whitehouse.gov, trump linked quotes from "news articles" from frontpagemag.com, or from Rev. Moon's washingtontimes.com?

We live in an age with unprecedented "info at our fingertips", yes! We also live, because of this, in a time with unprecedented risk of confusion. The best example I can come up with is here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=20

PLEASE give it a read. The post documents the "ridiculousness" of this:
<h3>Considering the "seemingly" savvy, "bi-partisan", political "insiders", named in the two "articles", are attempting to pass Bloomberg, who has said and done the following, as a "unifier", a bipartisan "standard bearer":</h3>

I think, in a time when a neocon like Michael Bloomberg, a man who has amassed a $5 billion personal fortune on Wall Street, a man who switched from being a lifelong democrat, in 2000, to position himself to "buy", with $70 million from his personal fortune, the republican nomination for mayor of NYC, who spent even more of his money to achieve reelection, and who has recently switched again, from republican to independent party affiliation, to better "position" himself for a possible 2008 presidentail run, can be "foisted" on the rest of us, by experienced former holders of high elected office, who should effing KNOW BETTER......as a "unifier", the "solution" for "improving" the politics forum at TFP, is most definitely NOT what you are proposing.

Complicated political times, an unprecedented plethora of available information, and my example of the above group of "esteemed bi-partisan" luminaries, attempting to preserve the political "status quo", by giving us the neocon "unity" candidate, Bloomberg, and the response here at TFP is to LIMIT, drastically, it sounds like, what each of us, can in the future, include in a post on a politics forum thread.

dksuddeth

Bloomberg is anything BUT a neocon. The person is almost as pure a dictator as guliani was when he was mayor. There is nothing conservative about either of them.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

highthief

I don't see it as "attacking" - in the original thread tecoyah references, nonsensical illustrates how links and quotes from articles should be handled (i.e., like a research paper) - if you turn a paper into a professor or write professionally, you use select quotes and informations from articles to support your position, you don't quote the entire New York Times article.

This demonstrates that you understand and have researched your material, rather than simply demonstrating your ability to use the quote feature.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

host

Considering what I've posted here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=20

Bloomberg's support for the war in Iraq, linking it to the 9/11 attacks, his position on Wolfowitz, etc., the content of his own 2002 speech at the UN, if he isn't a neocon, and he is a suitable "Unitary" candidate, I'll stop posting at TFP politics.

You have offered nothing to support your argument that Bloomberg, when it comes to foreign policy, civil liberties, the war "on terror", and the war in Iraq, has taken centrist positions.

I'm all for limiting replies to a minimum length of 500 characters to cut down on "one line" "drive by" posts that add nothing to the discussion, and are often distracting, OT, troll or baiting posts.

Why not be content with the existing moderation and posting rules, since there is no disagreement that the TFP politics forum is already one of the better ones?

There has already been a forum wide change that increases the length of posts. Formerly, the same author was permitted to post consecutive posts in the same thread, in the same day. For more than a year now, consecutive post attempts, "auto merge", into one, combined post.

dksuddeth

host, nothing against what you have posted, but bloomberg, just like guliani, will pander to any crowd for a vote. 9/11 this, iraq war that, blah blah blah. He's new york city mayor, a city that had to directly deal with the 9/11 attacks. He's using it to woo his local constituency, garner general republican support, and will flip flop as soon as it's vote count efficient for him.
In other words, he may be acting like a neo con for the most part now, but he will change those spots the second he finds himself in a position that he doesn't need to be a neocon.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

The_Jazz

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

highthief

I think you'll find there is (based upon the threads we have seen here recently) disagreement about the overall merits of TFP politics. Having civilized discourse among interested parties about same is the intelligent thing to do.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

roachboy

there are no particular problems i can see with making constraints that apply to a particular thread are there?
so if you want to do it, do it.
the only way you'll know if it works or is interesting is to do it.

there's also no particular problem with folk not playing in the thread because of the constraints.

so the only question really is whether folk would agree to either play by the constraints or not post to the thread.
for this game to work, there has to be an understanding that if you want to post to the thread, but what you're going to do breaks the constraint,. you can't post.
otherwise, this idea will only open space for new and improved pissiness about whether a constraint has or has not been broken. which seems dumb. so this would have to be a rule---if you break the constraint, your post cannot happen in that thread.
start another thread if you're feeling really inspired on the issue--this is how the principle of clinamen (the rule that you can break the rule) can apply. but within a thread that defines its topic and its rules, don't break constraint.


past that, i'm not sure why there is a meta-discussion: why not just experiment with the idea and see what happens.

personally, i like constraints like "you cannot use the letter e after this sentence." or "your post must be written as alexandrines"--you know, something that takes work to do. procedures, like. they can be far more complicated and far more work than anything you have seen on this forum up to this point. ever hear of OuLiPo? if you haven't, you really have no idea how complicated these games can get.

i kinda like the idea.
so let's see, shall we?

why doesn't someone float a thread with some constraints?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Ustwo

It couldn't hurt and might be good.

The only real pitfall is that such a format is work. Its been a long time since I did an organized debate of any kind, but to do it properly it required effort.

TFP itself is generally recreation for I'd assume most of us.

Such a structured debate, hell I wouldn't even mind a real debate moderator directing answers and questions, maybe be interesting, but it would require a concentrated effort by the parties at hand.

I personally would not volunteer to be part of it, not at this point in time, but I would be interested in reading from those who would.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

host

I started a constrained thread. I chose a topic that most are familiar with, and are predicted to have an opinion about. It is constrained....confined to the posting of opinion only, with no outside posted links, quotes, or references allowed.

In terms of equalizing the quality, relevance and weight of each individual poster's opinion, I think that this is the way to go. Let us see how well it works.