How Will "They Stand Up", So We can "Stand Down", If we kill them without consequence - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 12-15-2007, 01:10 PM

Do not misunderstand me....our military is "broken", because our president is a war criminal...I believe that the rest of this dysfunction follows from the president's decision to wage <a href="http://forums.abcnews.go.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ABCPolitics&tid=220424">aggressive war</a>

I am doing this thread because I've made a commitment to stay shocked, instead of numb. I think that the most shocking thing is the solidarity of this brutal murderer's fellow Marines, and the officers involved in his court martial.

They seem to be examples in their CIC's image. The question for us is, what to do about our CIC and his phoney, illegal war....as the fallout from it continues. Would impeachment slow this degradation down, at all?

Is there any semblance of "the mission", left? Iraqis must be too horrified by our military "justice", while 19,000 of them are imprisoned by our troops in Iraq, indefinitely and without hearings to answer charges against them, for the most part. This young Marine's "ordeal" was expedited, from crime to release in last than a year.

I weep for Iraqis, my country, and for our troops.

Quote:

http://northcountytimes.com/articles...9112_14_07.prt
Marine gets no time, ordered discharged for killing Iraqi army private

By: MARK WALKER - Staff Writer

CAMP PENDLETON -- Convicted on Thursday of negligent homicide for killing an Iraqi army private, Delano Holmes left a Camp Pendleton courtroom Friday afternoon a free man.

Holmes, 22, was the beneficiary of a light sentence handed down by a military jury, the second time in five months that a panel of Pendleton Marines allowed a defendant convicted in a homicide case to walk away with nothing more than time served. Holmes was held while the trial was pending.

The jury ordered the Marine reservist reduced in rank from lance corporal to private and given a bad conduct discharge for the stabbing death of Pvt. Munther Jasem Muhammed Hassin, a man he shared guard duty with at Camp Fallujah, Iraq, on Dec. 31, 2006.

Holmes killed Hassin that morning in what prosecutors contended was a rage, stabbing the Iraqi 17 times, slashing him another 26 times and nearly slicing the man's nose from his face.

In arguing for a five- to seven-year sentence, Maj. Christopher Shaw told the panel Friday morning that Holmes has not shown any remorse for killing a coalition partner and has never expressed any public regret.

"The accused does not care," Shaw said during his sentencing argument. "He has chosen to show no remorse and offered no apology."

Shaw also described Holmes as a "brutal killer."

When the sentenced was rendered after about two hours of deliberation, one of the prosecutors, Capt. Brent Miner, turned toward the base courtroom gallery and mouthed the word "Wow."

Jurors left the courtroom immediately after the sentencing and did not speak with reporters. Nor did prosecutors, who routinely refuse to discuss pending or completed cases.

Holmes, who did not testify during the trial but did deliver a rambling address during the sentencing phase, contended through his attorneys that he killed the Iraqi in self-defense, fearing the much shorter and lighter man was going to kill him.

During his tear-filled remarks late Thursday afternoon, he pleaded for leniency, saying he was a Christian who had escaped poverty and a life as a foster child to join the Marine Corps to serve his country.

A series of men Holmes had served with in Iraq had testified that he was a solid Marine. Each said they would gladly serve with him again.

In July, a jury of Marines allowed another enlisted man, Cpl. Trent Thomas, to walk free after convicting him of conspiracy to commit premeditated murder and kidnapping in the April 2006 death of a retired Iraqi policeman.

Thomas was one of eight Camp Pendleton troops who took part in the incident. Only one, the squad leader, Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins III, remains behind bars, sentenced to 15 years.

Thomas could have been sentenced to life in prison. Holmes could have been sentenced to eight years behind bars. In each case, their juries decided the time they had already spent behind bars, 14 months for Thomas and 10 months for Holmes, was sufficient punishment.

Gary Solis, a former Marine judge and prosecutor and a recognized scholar in military law, said the Thomas and Holmes cases are the latest examples of military juries showing leniency to fellow troops when the victim is a foreigner.

"Are we at a place where the jury is not willing to convict a young Marine when it involves an incident involving a non-American?" Solis asked.

The decision in the Holmes case is not that surprising, he added.

"The Marines and all services have a sympathy for the accused, particularly when the defendants have not committed an outrageously malicious crime," he said.

One of Holmes' four attorneys, Capt. Ray Slabbekorn, asked the jury to go easy on Holmes.

"One time, he feared for his life in a combat outpost and made a decision," Slabbekorn said. "That doesn't define this Marine."

Slabbekorn also argued that Holmes has remorse.

"He has. You can see that. He can barely hold himself together," he said. "This case is already a tragedy."

The jury could have convicted Holmes of unpremeditated murder but instead chose the lesser offense of negligent homicide. It also convicted him of lying to investigators for giving a false version of the events that led to Hassin's death.

Holmes told investigators the fight broke out after he slapped a lit cigarette out of the much smaller Iraqi man's hands, fearing it would expose the men to possible sniper attack. Before lighting the cigarette, the Iraqi had used an illuminated cell phone, Holmes claimed in statements to investigators.

He said he used his bayonet to stab Hassin because he believed the Iraqi was reaching for an AK-47 and would shoot him.

In closing arguments Wednesday, prosecutor Capt. Brett Miner rejected Holmes' version, saying it made no sense and pointing out the Marine is nearly a foot taller and 65 pounds heavier than the Iraqi.

Oceanside's Don Greenlaw, a retired Marine captain who frequently writes letters of support for troops accused of killing Iraqis and frequently visits men in the brig, said he does not believe Holmes should be kicked out of the service.

"This young Marine was over there protecting all of us ... and what he did, he did in self-defense," he said. "Why should he show remorse? He did nothing wrong."

During the trial, witnesses testified that when Hassin's fellow Iraqi army soldiers learned he had been killed and saw his body, they became highly agitated. One Marine who was at the guard station shortly after the incident testified he feared a fight was brewing until the Iraqis were ordered out of the area.

dksuddeth · 12-15-2007, 02:22 PM

Host, while your shock, anger, frustration, and even rage may be warranted in this case, you're not a military person and I don't believe you fully understand just what the command structure entails.

Quote:

Thomas was one of eight Camp Pendleton troops who took part in the incident. Only one, the squad leader, Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins III, remains behind bars, sentenced to 15 years.

This is the main person responsible. He was the highest ranking, the one in command. It is his responsibility and he failed. Do the others deserve jail time? In a civilian world, yes indeed. In the military world? apparently not, but do not be fooled by his being released. This individuals Bad Conduct Discharge will follow him the rest of his life. It's the equivalent of having a felony muder conviction on his record. He's lost the right to keep and bear arms, the right to vote, and every time he applies for a job, he's going to have that show up on his background check. This individual will never get a job that makes more than 35k a year, unless it's working for someone he knows well..

Tusko · 12-15-2007, 06:26 PM

murderer in a company of killers

scout · 12-15-2007, 07:02 PM

It's pretty easy to sit here in our easy chairs and read some news report that lumps someone's view of what happened in a few paragraphs isn't it. What if the Iraqi was marking their position for insurgents or a sniper attack. What if that was you sitting over there at a checkpoint with your life on the line and someone was lighting a smoke or talking on a lighted cell phone? Would you be so forgiving? What if the whole squad was killed instead of the one lone Iraqi who endangered them all by being a dumbass? No doubt then there would be yet another post to long to read with 47 5 year old links questioning it's legality, about how bad this war is and how it's killing a whole generation of US soldiers. Their damned if they do and damned if they don't. It's pretty damn easy to convict someone if you've never been in their shoes or faced the same dangers thousands of miles from home.

fastom · 12-15-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

This individual will never get a job that makes more than 35k a year, unless it's working for someone he knows well..

Unless he lies about his military record in which case he could become President

highthief · 12-15-2007, 07:19 PM

The guy is an obvious nut case - it's amazing how many people will give a guy a pass because he's in the armed forces.

Ustwo · 12-15-2007, 07:36 PM

host I think its infinitely amusing that you blame Bush directly for this.

Other than that, you weren't there, you have no clue, you have only a very short story to base your opinion on and with it you condem an entire army and the entire effort.

Bravo, nice leap.

host · 12-15-2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Host, while your shock, anger, frustration, and even rage may be warranted in this case, you're not a military person and I don't believe you fully understand just what the command structure entails.

This is the main person responsible. He was the highest ranking, the one in command. It is his responsibility and he failed. Do the others deserve jail time? In a civilian world, yes indeed. In the military world? apparently not, but do not be fooled by his being released. This individuals Bad Conduct Discharge will follow him the rest of his life. It's the equivalent of having a felony muder conviction on his record. He's lost the right to keep and bear arms, the right to vote, and every time he applies for a job, he's going to have that show up on his background check. This individual will never get a job that makes more than 35k a year, unless it's working for someone he knows well..

dksuddeth, you make a good point about my knowledge of command structure, and another in noting that the ranking member of the murderer's detail at the time of the murder, received a much harsher sentence for this crime....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

host I think its infinitely amusing that you blame Bush directly for this.

Other than that, you weren't there, you have no clue, you have only a very short story to base your opinion on and with it you condem an entire army and the entire effort.

Bravo, nice leap.

Actually, no "leap" at all. It is well established in the prosecution of those who wage avoidable aggressive war, as president Bush seems to have done in Iraq:

<i>"It is against such a background that these defendants now
ask this Tribunal to say that they are not guilty of planning,
executing, or conspiring to commit this long list of crimes
and wrongs. They stand before the record of this trial as
bloodstained Gloucester stood by the body of his slain King.
He begged of the widow, as they beg of you: «Say I slew them
not.» And the Queen replied, «Then say they were not slain.
But dead they are. . . .» If you were to say of these men that
they are not guilty, it would be as true to say there has been
no war, there are no slain, there has been no crime.</i>

-Chief US Nuremberg Prosecutor Robert H. Jackson, in his closing argument at the Nuremberg trial of surviving third reich leaders

Ustwo, you have an opportunity to persuade me that Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq was not "the supreme international crime", the "crime of aggressive war".

All you have to do is detail what portion(s) of Sec'ty of State Colin Powell's February, 2003 UN presentation, justifying military invasion of Iraq and "regime change", were accurate and rose to a level justifying the immediate threat described by Powell, Bush, cheney, and Rumsfeld, that required attacking Iraq asap. I'll point you here:

Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030205-1.html
For Immediate Release
February 5, 2003

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell Addresses the U.N. Security Council....

....Zarqawi's activities are not confined to this small corner of north east Iraq. He traveled to Baghdad in May 2002 for medical

treatment, staying in the capital of Iraq for two months while he recuperated to fight another day....

Is it reasonable to believe, as you do, that it was just Bush's and Powell's "bad luck" that every significant Iraqi "threat" touted by Powell and Bush in Feb., 2003, turned out not to rise to a level justifying military invasion...WMD, mobile (trailer mounted) bio-weapons labs, Iraqi government "relations" with al-Zarqawi and al-Qaeda, or is it reasonable to believe that Bush authorized and participated in an agenda of aggressive war against Iraq?

<h3>If it is as it looks, the crime of aggressive war is the foundation and catalyst for all the crimes that followed, including the murder described in the thread's OP....</h3>

I know, I know....I'm jumping way ahead of you. I've figured out that Bush has committed the ultimate crime against humanity, and <h3>I want his still snowballing chain of crimes that are an outgrowth of his aggressive war, to stop.</h3> You think you're entitled to the luxury of denying all of the criminality that Bush has set us on a course to, but the Bush administration initiated offenses to humanity still continue, uninterrupted, and in the OP article is described but one of a number and variety too large and too horrible to fully grasp, even if one is disposed to try.

Quote:

http://www.icrc.ch/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JQ2X
Nuremberg and Tokyo International Tribunals...

....Article 6 of the Charter of the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal established the legal basis for trying individuals accused of the following acts:

— Crimes against peace : the planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties [17], agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing.

— War crimes : violations of the laws and customs of war. A list follows with, inter alia, murder, ill-treatment or deportation into slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, the killing of hostages, the plunder of public or private property, the wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

— Crimes against humanity : murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhuman acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated [18].

As far as jurisdiction ratione personae is concerned, <h3>it covered “leaders, organisers, instigators and accomplices” who had taken part in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit any of those crimes:</h3> all of them were considered for “all acts performed by any persons in the execution of such plan”.

Quote:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...7/ai_n12564576
Saudi scholars urge Iraqis to back holy war against troops
Chicago Sun-Times, Nov 7, 2004 by DONNA ABU-NASR

BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Prominent Saudi religious scholars urged Iraqis to support militants waging holy war against the U.S.-led coalition forces as American troops prepared Saturday for a major assault on the insurgent hotbed of Fallujah.
Advertisement

The 26 Saudi scholars and preachers said in an open letter to the Iraqi people that their appeal was prompted by "the extraordinary situation through which the Iraqis are passing, which calls for unity and exchange of views." The letter was posted on the Internet.

<h3>"At no time in history has a whole people been violated . . . by propaganda that's been proved false,"</h3> Sheik Awad al-Qarni, one of the scholars, told Al-Arabiya TV.

"The U.S. forces are still destroying towns on the heads of their people and killing women and children. <h3>What's going on in Iraq is a result of the big crime of America's occupation of Iraq."</h3>

In their letter, the scholars stressed that armed attacks by militant Iraqi groups on U.S. troops and their allies in Iraq represent "legitimate" resistance.

The scholars were careful to direct their appeal to Iraqis only and stayed away from issuing a Muslim-wide call for holy war. They also identified the military as the target.

Saudi officials did not comment. AP

12-15-2007, 07:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
scout Psycho	It's pretty easy to sit here in our easy chairs and read some news report that lumps someone's view of what happened in a few paragraphs isn't it. What if the Iraqi was marking their position for insurgents or a sniper attack. What if that was you sitting over there at a checkpoint with your life on the line and someone was lighting a smoke or talking on a lighted cell phone? Would you be so forgiving? What if the whole squad was killed instead of the one lone Iraqi who endangered them all by being a dumbass? No doubt then there would be yet another post to long to read with 47 5 year old links questioning it's legality, about how bad this war is and how it's killing a whole generation of US soldiers. Their damned if they do and damned if they don't. It's pretty damn easy to convict someone if you've never been in their shoes or faced the same dangers thousands of miles from home. Last edited by scout; 12-15-2007 at 07:15 PM..

12-15-2007, 07:19 PM	#6 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	The guy is an obvious nut case - it's amazing how many people will give a guy a pass because he's in the armed forces. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

12-15-2007, 07:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	host I think its infinitely amusing that you blame Bush directly for this. Other than that, you weren't there, you have no clue, you have only a very short story to base your opinion on and with it you condem an entire army and the entire effort. Bravo, nice leap. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-15-2007, 06:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tusko Psycho	murderer in a company of killers