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Banned
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well said.
He probably thinks you're biased or something or maybe wants to discredit you in some way. There is a lot of anti-Christian sentiment on these boards.
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No..there is not. There is a lot of sentiment against "aggressive" religiously motivated activity, primarily in US politics. The constitution has language that PROTECTS government FROM religion. The same aggressively political religious organizations who claim tax exempt status, are attempting to gain political and policy control of the US government.
The mormons have baptized almost all of my ancestors who are recorded in any vital (birth, death, marriage) records, without asking or receiving permission from descendants to do so. I resent it, it is an intrusion, others feel even more strongly that I do:
Quote:
http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online...lds_disag.html
April 11, 2005
Jewish-LDS Disagreement Over Baptism for the Dead Resolved
Jewish leaders met with leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) in Salt Lake City on Sunday and Monday. The topic of the meeting was the practice of LDS church members baptizing deceased Jews in the church's rituals.
The two faith groups made an agreement in 1995 to stop the Latter-day Saints from entering Jewish Holocaust victims' names into genealogy indexes and performing proxy baptisms for them. Jewish leaders claim that the Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and other Holocaust victims, after a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises.
Mormon Church members have long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. (The LDS Church's explanation of this practice can be found here.) Under the practice, most Catholic popes have been proxy baptized, as have historical figures like Genghis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Buddha, according to Helen Radkey, an independent genealogical researcher in Salt Lake City who helped coordinate this week's meeting.
At the end of the two-day meeting, the issue seems resolved. No official agreements have been announced. However, leaders of both sides made comments to the press after the meetings. "The spirit that existed between the Mormon leaders and ourselves was superb, and I am very pleased about it," said Ernest Michel of the Jewish delegation.
The LDS Church admits some Jewish names got into its records against policy, and the two sides have agreed to a committee to keep improper Jewish names out of LDS records.
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Quote:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West...g.the.dead.ap/
Mormons meet with Jews over baptizing Holocaust victims
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 Posted: 1:21 AM EST (0621 GMT)
SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (AP) -- Mormon and Jewish leaders met Tuesday in New York City to discuss the Mormon church's apparent breach of its agreement not to posthumously baptize Holocaust victims and other deceased Jews....
...Mormons believe proxy baptisms give those in the afterlife the option of joining the religion. It's primarily intended to offer salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included.
Baptisms for the dead are performed inside Mormon temples, with a church member immersed in water in place of the deceased person. Names of the deceased are gathered by church members from genealogy records as well as death and governmental documents from around the world.
"For Latter-day Saints, the practice of proxy baptism is a means of expressing love and concern for those who have preceded us. It is a freewill offering," Bills said.
At Tuesday's meeting, Michel met with Mormon leaders Monte Brough and D. Todd Christofferson.
Independent researcher Helen Radkey, who prepared a report for Michel, is certain the agreement has been broken. In her research of the church's extensive genealogical database, she found at least 20,000 Jews -- some of whom died in Nazi concentration camps -- were baptized after they died.
"There shouldn't be one single death camp record in those files," Radkey said.
Radkey has been researching Jews included in the Mormon databases since 1999, when she found Anne Frank and her extended family listed as being baptized.
Also among those baptized posthumously by the church, according to Radkey's research: Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Buddha.....
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Quote:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll...EWS10/60722016
Article published Saturday, July 22, 2006
Mideast conflict studied for links to Bible
How — or whether — the 10-day-old conflict ties in with Bible prophecy is a matter of debate in Toledo and around the globe.
“We’re getting comments from around the world,” said Todd Strandberg of Omaha, who runs the Web site RaptureReady.com. “Most of them are from the United States, but for some reason, Australia is a big one.”
<b>Mr. Strandberg, who is in the Air Force, said he works about eight hours a day, seven days a week, compiling information about the End Times — the days leading up to Earth’s final battle, Armageddon — for his Web site, which has been in operation for 20 years, since the era of dial-up online bulletin boards.</b>
“I try to be practical with everything. My main goal is not to be spectacular or push the conspiracy thing,” Mr. Strandberg said. “But God says he is coming back, so sometime he is coming back.”
The latest round of fighting in the Middle East is being closely watched for any signs of Syrian involvement — a step that some feel will lead to the destruction of its capital city, Damascus, as described by two Bible prophets.
http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html
Rapture Index 156
Net Change +1
Updated Jul 24, 2006
Record High 182 Record Low 57
24 Sept 01 12 Dec 93
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In the thread from which the following was posted, this poll resulted in 25 members voting:
<i>Does voting potential of rapture believers drive U.S. environmental & foreign policy?</i>
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/poll.ph...ts&pollid=1541
Not at all......<b>8 votes</b>
It is just a coincidence.......<b>2 votes</b>
Yes, but not to the extent outlined in the OP......<b>8 votes</b>
Christian fundamentalists have gained control of U.S. policy.......<b>17 votes</b>
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Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...7&postcount=15
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Originally Posted by powerclown
According to you, Israel, JINSA and the Jews run American foreign policy.
Now you're saying the fundamentalist Christians run American foreign policy.
Not a big religion guy, are you host?
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powerclown, I've read posts on this forum where you have engaged roachboy, and....even me, in detailed, "back 'n forth" discussion. Later, I learned on the page, linked below, that you and I don't speak the same language:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=97588&page=3
I'm trying to figure out what the fuck is behind what I see as going "terribly wrong" in my country, powerclown. By posting here, I'm sharing what I've found.....kind of thinking "out loud".....displaying some things that shape "what I think I know..." I probably don't know as much as most other people.
If you don't want to participate in a discussion with me, that's fine, but please don't come here and post like you did above.....
It isn't me who is posting "on the fringe" ideas, powerclown. The president has the "on the fringe" title locked up....his appointments demonstrate that he owns that distinction. We're closer to six years into this freakish Bush era, than we are to five, and there's enough of a track record showing, to support my point:
Remember the first man appointed by Bush, before he picked Jerry Bremer, to run the Provisional Authority in post invasion Iraq? It was JINSA Jake Garner:
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...arner.profile/
Garner seeks to reprise his success
By Patrick Cooper
CNN
Monday, May 19, 2003 Posted: 11:11 AM EDT (1511 GMT)
(CNN) -- Retired U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Jay Garner has returned to the Pentagon, but the timing of his return to Iraq is yet to be determined.
Garner is eventually to become the "interim transitional civil administrator" of Iraq -- a title as carefully worded as any.
Now biding his time in Kuwait, he is set to take on the tenuous diplomatic role of transitioning Iraq to a new civilian government.
........One wildcard issue will be Garner's signing of an October 2000 statement blaming Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority for ongoing violence in Israel.
<b>Dozens of retired American military officers signed the statement, produced in conjunction with the Washington-based Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. Garner also earlier attended a JINSA-led trip to Israel.</b>
Although Iraq and Israel historically have been hostile JINSA issued a statement in late March defending Garner's trip:
"The idea that 10 days in the company of JINSA, traveling in a democratic and friendly country, would fundamentally alter his understanding of the requirements of American policy in Iraq is ludicrous and highly offensive."
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Quote:
http://afa.gazette.com/fullstory.php?id=4838
Visitors board says bias complex (04/09/05)
AFA religious training modeled
By PAM ZUBECK THE GAZETTE
Religious bias will continue to pose challenges for the Air Force Academy because it's an issue society as a whole is struggling to resolve, the head of an oversight board said Friday.
"Society right now is going through a real debate," said James Gilmore, Virginia's former governor. "I'm just warning you this is going to be more difficult than you think it is.".....
.....Diverse religious beliefs should be accommodated when possible, he said, although the mission always comes first.
<h3>"Evangelical Christians do not check their religion at the door," Gilmore said. "I think that is not understood in American society,</h3> and as a result we're seeing a lot of condemnation of evangelical Christians because they are seen to be aggressively asserting themselves, and when it's in a governmental context, it's seen as an impingement on people."
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<b>Does this seem like a guy who should have been promoted to a 3 star and put in charge of "defense for intelligence and warfighting support"? Do you think that Rumsfeld promoted and transfered Gen. Boykin without input from Cheney or Bush?</b>
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http://blog.washingtonpost.com/early...anizes_ag.html
And then there's probably the longest-serving officer in one assignment in bureaucratic history: Lt. Gen. William G. (“Jerry”) Boykin. He has deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and warfighting support since July 23, 2003. Maybe Boykin is indispensable, maybe he is so good at his job that Rumsfeld can't stand to let him go.
More likely, Rumsfeld can't stand the battle that would ensue if he nominated the famous Boykin, known for his religious devotion (he was once a vociferous speaker on the Christian circuit) for another job or another star.
In other words, it's perfectly okay to keep Boykin in his job for three years -- a military eternity -- to avoid political trouble and oversight. When it comes to actually fighting the war -- if any of these generals and admirals can actually be labeled fighting -- on the other hand, year long or shorter assignments seem perfectly routine. What a way to run a railroad.
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Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/po...rint&position=
August 20, 2004
General Said to Be Faulted Over Speeches
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
ASHINGTON, Aug. 19 (AP) - A Pentagon investigation has concluded that a senior intelligence officer violated regulations by failing to make it clear that he was not acting in an official capacity when, in speaking at churches, he cast the war on terrorism in religious terms, a Defense Department official said Thursday.
In most instances the officer, Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, was wearing his Army uniform.
The inquiry, by the Defense Department's deputy inspector general, found that General Boykin, deputy under secretary of defense for intelligence, had also violated Pentagon rules by failing to obtain advance clearance for his remarks, which gained wide publicity through news reports last fall.
In one appearance, according to those reports, General Boykin told a religious group in Oregon that Islamic extremists hated the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christians.''
Discussing a 1993 battle by American soldiers against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, he told an audience: "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."
He also declared in one of his speeches that the enemy in the antiterrorism fight was Satan and that God had put President Bush in the White House.
The report on the Boykin investigation has not been publicly released. Its findings were described Thursday by a senior Pentagon official familiar with its conclusions.
The report says that in considering possible action against the general, the Army should take into account that he consulted military lawyers in advance about the propriety of making the speeches and was not advised against doing so.
The Washington Post, which reported the conclusion of the investigation on Thursday, said <b>the inquiry had determined that General Boykin discussed his involvement in the war on terrorism at 23 religious-oriented events beginning in January 2002 and that he wore his uniform while speaking at all but two. He spoke mostly at Baptist or Pentecostal churches.</b>
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Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in643650.shtml
The Holy Warrior
General Called a Religious Fanatic Finally Speaks Out
Sept. 15, 2004
<b>.......But President Bush received so much heat about Boykin from Muslim leaders that even he took a shot at the general: “Gen. Boykin’s comments don’t reflect the administration’s comments. … He doesn’t reflect my point of view.”
</b>
“That was a painful moment, but I put it in perspective,” said Boykin of Mr. Bush’s comments. “What the president heard was what was portrayed in the media. The president didn’t hear my presentation.”
Boykin tried to end the controversy by asking for an investigation by the Pentagon’s inspector general. Ten months later, the investigation concluded that he had violated department regulations by failing to clear his comments in advance.
The secretary of the Army is expected to issue Boykin a letter of concern, which amounts to nothing more than a mild slap on the wrist. That closes the investigation, <b>but doesn't address the central question of whether a senior officer, wearing his uniform, should speak so openly about his faith.</b> And that leaves the controversy right back to where it began when this self-described holy roller took to the pulpit.
Why did he start speaking to church groups? “I was asked to come and talk to Americans, many of which had their sons and daughters mobilized and involved in this war,” says Boykin. “So my purpose was to be an encouragement to Americans while we were at war.”
In churches all across the country, Boykin told riveting stories of how God sustains Americans in battle. “Before we launched that first mission, we all prayed 'God go with us. God keep your hands on us,'” said Boykin in one speech.
He tells the congregation that when he was a young captain, <b>God actually spoke to him, telling him to join the Army’s elite Delta Force: “There are times when God speaks to you in an audible voice. He spoke to me that morning because I said, ‘Satan is gathering his forces.’ He said, ‘Yes, son, but so am I.’ And I knew I was to be there.”</b>
Boykin has been on the front lines of the battle against radical Muslims for a quarter of a century, ever since Islamic revolutionaries seized the U.S. embassy in Tehran and took Americans hostage. He was one of the Delta Force commandos who went in to rescue them. The mission ended in failure on a remote desert airstrip when a helicopter ran into a transport plane full of soldiers.
“It was a huge ball of fire. They could not survive,” recalls Boykin.
It was a disaster military, but in Boykin’s telling, it was also a miracle: “That aircraft was going to explode any moment. But as I prayed in the name of Jesus, the door of that aircraft opened and through those flames came 45 men running just as hard as they could.”
That’s not just a war story that gets better with each retelling. It’s exactly what happened...........
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Do the following news reports concerning the Air Force academy describe events and a climate that seems "normal" in one of the three most prestigious military academies in the world?
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...051201740.html
Air Force Removes Chaplain From Post
Officer Decried Evangelicals' Influence
By T.R. Reid
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 13, 2005; Page A04
DENVER, May 12 -- An Air Force chaplain who complained that evangelical Christians were trying to "subvert the system" by winning converts among cadets at the Air Force Academy was removed from administrative duties last week, just as the Pentagon began an in-depth study of alleged religious intolerance among cadets and commanders at the school.
"They fired me," said Capt. MeLinda Morton, a Lutheran minister who was removed as executive officer of the chaplain unit on May 4. "They said I should be angry about these outside groups who reported on the strident evangelicalism at the academy. The problem is, I agreed with those reports."....
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Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062200598.html
Intolerance Found at Air Force Academy
Military Report Criticizes Religious Climate but Does Not Cite Overt Bias
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 23, 2005; Page A02
........He said his group, which visited the academy over four days in early May, was there to "take the pulse" of the religious climate, not to investigate wrongdoing.
Examples of questionable behavior highlighted in the report included the school's head football coach hanging a "Team Jesus" banner in the locker room in November 2004; the academy's commandant sending out a schoolwide message on the National Day of Prayer and encouraging cadets to use the "J for Jesus" hand signal; and senior school personnel signing on to a Christian advertisement citing scripture in the base newspaper.
Also detailed in the report was an incident in February 2004, when cadets reported their peers had placed fliers on the more than 4,000 place settings at the cadet dining facility and in other common areas promoting the film "The Passion of the Christ."
"Cadets felt they were being proselytized and pressured to see the movie," the report said. "Jewish cadets told the team they encountered anti-Semitic comments that they believe 'The Passion of The Christ' flyer event inspired."
Cadets also reported being harassed for not taking part in voluntary prayer meetings during basic training and being labeled as instead taking part in the "Heathen Flight" back to dorms for time to relax.
The concerns about religious intolerance arose during earlier investigations of complaints that sexual harassment was common on the campus but were ignored by school administrators. The teams studying the academy heard stories of favoritism toward evangelical cadets and faculty members and allegations of discrimination against others...........
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powerclown, if none of the above causes you concern, if you thought that it was "normal" for the POTUS and nearly the entire republican congressional membership of the house and the senate to converge on Washington in a rare weekend session to pass and sign a bill into law that attempted to remove the custodial, marital rights of one man to decide what was best medically for his wife who was for a decade in a chronic vegetative state, if the fact that both VP Cheney and John Bolton were affiliated with JINSA, not to mention the roster of PNAC and it's influence in the Pentagon, seems out of the ordinary, consider this:
Quote:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/042...n,53582,1.html
The Jesus Landing Pad
Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move
by Rick Perlstein
May 18th, 2004 10:00 AM
It was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists........Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.
But now we know.
"Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.
The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.
Abrams attempted to assuage their concerns by stating that "the Gaza Strip had no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."
Three weeks after the confab, <b>President George W. Bush reversed long-standing U.S. policy, endorsing Israeli sovereignty over parts of the West Bank in exchange for Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.....</b>
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The "problem" is not with Romney. It is not with any religion or religious sect, per se. It is about the co-opting of the republican party, the US military, and US foreign and domestic policy, by members of some relgious groups or sects who do NOT "leave their religious beliefs, at the door", when they "politic". It is all part of one agenda, pursuing political power to achieve religious beliefs based controlling authority.
The founding fathers feared that very thing happening. The UK, for example, has an official church, the Anglican church, and the British monarch is the titular head of that church, and of the secular government.
That is part of the "garbage" that our founders fought a revolutionary war to escape from, just as their forefathers had escaped from the UK, 150 years earlier to be free from.
Romney is just one of virtually all republican party presidential candidates, who do not seem committed to seperation of church and state. To be taken seriously by all of us, the two major political parties and all of the candidates who run for office under the "banners" of those parties, must be committed to protecting government from the creeping influence and agenda of religion, any and all religion.
Any lesser sentiments or vigilance violates the oath taken to "preserve and protect the constitution". If that is being "anti-christian" or "anti-mormon", so be it....but it is not anti-American !
Last edited by host; 12-13-2007 at 10:43 PM..
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12-12-2007, 12:46 AM
