Muslims call for the death of English school teacher... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 11-30-2007, 10:50 AM

I am sure this news has spread outside of the UK... these people DO NOT represent Islam, but they do represent a growing trend within Islam.

In my opinion this unlawful imprisonment of a British citizen should be treated as a hostile act - and an appropriate military response should be being prepared if she is not released immediately.

The 15 day sentence was obviously some kind of a deal... but we should not deal with these people and legitimise their insanity. No admission of guilt, not one day's imprisonment, is acceptable in this case.

Quote:

Crowds of people have marched in Sudan's capital Khartoum to call for a tougher sentence for a British teacher imprisoned for insulting religion.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, was jailed for 15 days on Thursday after allowing children in her class to name a teddy bear Muhammad.

Some reports said protesters had called for her to be shot. Her lawyer said she was later moved for her own safety.

Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed is on his way to Sudan to push for her release.

Lord Ahmed, who is being accompanied by the Conservatives' Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, expects to meet President Omar al-Bashir and possibly the chief justice. He is travelling at the invitation of the Sudanese government.

'Kill her'

The Foreign Office said Mrs Gibbons had been visited again by consular staff on Friday and that she was "well", but it could not confirm where she was being held.

A spokeswoman said: "We are pursuing diplomatic contacts with the Sudanese government, we are continuing to do so and will throughout the weekend both in London and Khartoum.

"We are continuing to search for a swift resolution of this issue."

The Foreign Office said it had been in touch with Lord Ahmed about his trip to Sudan but added that it was a private visit.

The BBC's Adam Mynott in Khartoum said Mrs Gibbons was initially held in a women's prison, but was later moved to a secret location following the protests.

What we have here is a case of cultural misunderstandings
Ali Alhadithi
Federation of Student Islamic Societies

Reaction to verdict
Sudan's 'harsh' prisons
Send us your comments

The marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient.

The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks.

Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out.

According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".

One demonstrator told reporters that it was unacceptable to take a toy and call it Muhammad.

"We can't accept it from anybody. Even if they can do that in Europe, they cannot do it here in Sudan. We ask our rulers and judges to review what they have said. Fifteen days is not enough."

Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration.

The Foreign Office said it was seeking more details about the protest.

'Strongest terms'

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has been in touch with Mrs Gibbons' family for a second time, speaking to a close relative of the teacher.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband has expressed "in the strongest terms" the UK's concern at her detention.

He said there were no plans to issue advice to British nationals living and working in Sudan in the light of the trouble, but diplomatic staff were keeping "a close eye" on the situation.

Gillian Gibbons
Mrs Gibbons allowed her class to name the teddy bear Muhammad

Naming as Muhammad
Respecting feelings abroad
Bloggers condemn Sudan

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, said he could not "see any justification" for the sentence, calling it an "absurdly disproportionate response" to a "minor cultural faux pas".

The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (Fosis), which represents more than 90,000 Muslim students in the UK and Ireland, said it was "deeply concerned" at what was a "gravely disproportionate" verdict.

The federation's president, Ali Alhadithi, said: "What we have here is a case of cultural misunderstandings, and the delicacies of the matter demonstrate that it was not the intention of Gillian Gibbons to imply any offence against Islam or Muslims.

"We hope that the Sudanese authorities will take immediate action to secure a safe release for Gillian Gibbons."

In September, Mrs Gibbons allowed her class of primary school pupils to name the teddy bear Muhammad as part of a study of animals and their habitats.

The court heard that she was arrested on Sunday after another member of staff at Unity High School complained to the Ministry of Education.

loquitur · 11-30-2007, 10:54 AM

"military response"? are you daft? over a schoolteacher? I never would have picked you to be trigger-happy. Seems to me that the days of "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" are long dead.

Ustwo · 11-30-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I am sure this news has spread outside of the UK... these people DO NOT represent Islam, but they do represent a growing trend within Islam.

At what point does this trend represent Islam?

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

At what point does this trend represent Islam?

It represents religion. Singling out Islam because it happens to be in it's dark ages isn't really fair. There was a time that this would have happened in Christianity or Judaism.

Frosstbyte · 11-30-2007, 12:32 PM

I was going to post this article, but I'm having a hard time formulating coherently how poorly I understand what's happened.

The worst this could possibly be construed as being is a cultural misunderstanding. There was no suggestion that they were treating the bear as any sort of idol. There was no suggestion that it meant or was supposed to refer to the prophet in any way besides sharing a name. Why is it ok to name your snot-nosed brat Mohammed but not a teddy bear? If the name is sacred and can't be used, why can people name their kids after him without recourse?

I didn't understand the degree of uproar over the cartoon whenever that happened, but I can appreciate why people would be offended by a cartoon mocking someone or something they believe is sacred. This uproar is simply outside any remote boundary of what should be considered a human thought process. It's utter insanity and beyond terrifying that people could reach this level of frenzy from something so totally insignificant.

I know relatively little about the Muslim faith, but if everything in that faith is 100% true, I'm sure these people would be pretty surprised what the afterlife would hold for them if they killed her for her "sin."

Skutch · 11-30-2007, 12:38 PM

I once knew a cat named Hitler.

Frosstbyte · 11-30-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It represents religion. Singling out Islam because it happens to be in it's dark ages isn't really fair. There was a time that this would have happened in Christianity or Judaism.

Of course it's fair. What's unfair about it? Why is a discrete group of people acting like an ignorant barbarians excusable because other groups of people acted like ignorant barbarians hundreds of years ago?

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

Of course it's fair. What's unfair about it? Why is a discrete group of people acting like an ignorant barbarians excusable because other groups of people acted like ignorant barbarians hundreds of years ago?

It unfair to set Islam apart in having extreme elements that behave horribly in the name of their religion, of course. All religions have had extremists. If you line up the timelines of Christianity and Islam, they're about in the middle of their dark ages.

roachboy · 11-30-2007, 12:50 PM

first off, this situation in the sudan self-evidently is not indicative of islam in anything like a general sense, simply because muhammed is an extraordinarily common first name across most arabic-speaking countries where islam is a dominant religion--INCLUDING the sudan.
so ANY attempt to make this about something more than the bizarre-o situation that confronts this woman in the sudan is ludicrous.
and it is even more ludicrous that i--or anyone else--should feel the need to even say as much.
you'd think it self-evident.

it is obviously about the fact that this very common first name was interpreted by one of gillian gibbon's CO-WORKERS (i capitalize this because it amazes me) as blasphemous because the name was given BY THE STUDENTS OF HER CLASS to a teddy bear...(this tidbit about the co-worker is in today's guardian)

there's a ton that i do not understand that happened between the lodging of some complaint to the present situation, and so i'm not even going to try to say anything about it.

what is even more baffling is that this whole ridiculous affair is being used for political purposes. that you can see a rationale behind, i guess: i mean it's not as though the sudanese government has not come under a ton of pressure from the international "community" for the civil war in general and over allegations of its support for militias in darfur.

but still...sheesh...

Frosstbyte · 11-30-2007, 12:57 PM

The world of the Dark Ages and the world today really couldn't be more different, particularly with respect to access to information which is what caused the Dark Ages in the first place. Falling literacy rates and the loss of the collected knowledge of Rome with the end of the Roman Empire?

The tools are there, which they emphatically weren't during the Dark Age (well, they were, ironically, in the Middle East, but taking a multi-year voyage to learn in the Middle East was a lot harder than connecting to the internet).

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

The world of the Dark Ages and the world today really couldn't be more different, particularly with respect to access to information which is what caused the Dark Ages in the first place. Falling literacy rates and the loss of the collected knowledge of Rome with the end of the Roman Empire?

Arguing just to argue, eh? Mkay.

The several hundred years following the fall of an empire? Check.
War torn? Check.
Rule by radical religious people? Check.
Ultra powerful church? Check.
Impoverished? Check.
Peasant/farmer militias? Check
Crusades? Check.

Rekna · 11-30-2007, 01:17 PM

Is it really a growing trend? Or is it just that the small minority that is calling for her execution is getting better at using the media along with the fact that our media thrives on stories like this to make money?

I don't think we should militarily respond to this as the incident itself leaves a huge black eye on the fundies that are railing against this woman. The more things like this happen the faster the mainstream islamics will come out against this sort of thing.

Now I'm all for using diplomatic means to get this woman out of there ASAP. Also charitable organizations in that country should threaten to pull out immediately. Let's see how the country does without international support.

Strange Famous · 11-30-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It represents religion. Singling out Islam because it happens to be in it's dark ages isn't really fair. There was a time that this would have happened in Christianity or Judaism.

Yeah, but our Spanish Inquisition was some time ago.

Women in The Kingdom are being thrown in jail because they are rape victims right now.

There are lunatics in every religion... in Islam, the lunatics are starting to take charge... thats the issue.

roachboy · 11-30-2007, 02:28 PM

wouldn't it be more accurate to say that in the sudan, a very problematic regime is in power?
and that this particular situation is but one--and not a terribly significant one--example of this?
i say not terribly significant because, well, there's darfur. there's been a civil war. who the hell knows how many people have been massacred in these contexts?
that a nice school teacher from england is in jail because she let her class name a teddy bear muhammed is surreal, but it doesnt demonstrate anything--AT ALL---about islam in general.

and why would you advocate military action over this?
i dont remember seeing anything from you (or anyone else here, really) arguing that darfur was a massive human rights disaster that required international intervention?
the "community" almost addressed this question a couple years ago, but dodged it by deciding that darfur was "genocide-like" or "genocide-ish" but not genocide because that would have required action.

nothing about that: outrage about this.
i really do not understand your priorities, where they lay, what they are.

and i'm in no way condoning what is happening to this poor woman.
i just dont understand why her situation is more important than that of hundreds of thousands of human beings in darfur. for example.

please dont make me speculate as to why that is.
i really dont want to go down that route.

Strange Famous · 11-30-2007, 02:43 PM

She will be released this weekend anyway Ive been hearing.

By all means we should interfered over Darfur. With strong protective force.

By all means I would send in a warship and I would send my troops to take her out of prison... by peaceful means if possible.... and by killing anyone who tried to prevent it if necessary.

This attack against one women, as insignificant as it may be in human terms compared to Darfur, is an attack against the dignity of our nation. It should not be tolerated.

roachboy · 11-30-2007, 03:00 PM

how is this an attack?

it was a bizarre legal case...

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

There are lunatics in every religion... in Islam, the lunatics are starting to take charge... thats the issue.

Islam today is better than it was 10 years ago. The idea that "the lunatics are starting to take charge" seems somewhat dated. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is much less radical than his predecessors.

djtestudo · 11-30-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Arguing just to argue, eh? Mkay.

The several hundred years following the fall of an empire? Check.
War torn? Check.
Rule by radical religious people? Check.
Ultra powerful church? Check.
Impoverished? Check.
Peasant/farmer militias? Check
Crusades? Check.

I actually completely agree with you on the timeline. Islam was founded ~650 years after Christianity, and this kind of stuff was happening in Europe in the 1300s.

However, one thing we need to remember is that the world itself is completely different. Back then, you could go through a regional religious transformation and not have it effect the greater world community very much (outside of the occasional crusade). Now, with the way the world as a whole is connected, the problems there create major problems elsewhere.

We really can't afford to wait them out for the next hundred-plus years, because by then it could be too late for not millions, but billions.

I don't know what CAN be done, but something HAS to be done.

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

I actually completely agree with you on the timeline. Islam was founded ~650 years after Christianity, and this kind of stuff was happening in Europe in the 1300s.

However, one thing we need to remember is that the world itself is completely different. Back then, you could go through a regional religious transformation and not have it effect the greater world community very much (outside of the occasional crusade). Now, with the way the world as a whole is connected, the problems there create major problems elsewhere.

We really can't afford to wait them out for the next hundred-plus years, because by then it could be too late for not millions, but billions.

I don't know what CAN be done, but something HAS to be done.

I agree with this completely. My point was simply that singling out Islam really doesn't make sense. Frankly, I believe that the world would be better off if extreme religious fundamentalism and zealotism was treated for what it is: mental illness. Considering that the west is no longer in the dark ages, I'd say that in the interest of self preservation we should be taking action to bring peace and prosperity to the region. Imagine the dark ages had there been enough resources and less fighting.

Ustwo · 11-30-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I agree with this completely. My point was simply that singling out Islam really doesn't make sense. Frankly, I believe that the world would be better off if extreme religious fundamentalism and zealotism was treated for what it is: mental illness. Considering that the west is no longer in the dark ages, I'd say that in the interest of self preservation we should be taking action to bring peace and prosperity to the region. Imagine the dark ages had there been enough resources and less fighting.

We single out Islam because they are the problem.

Past problems really don't matter at this point, and we have a bit of apples and oranges.

I once felt this was the 'normal' progression to some sort of civilized state for Islam, but the world is different enough these days that you can't use ignorance and superstition as a cause like you could even 200 years ago.

In the crusades the first place you saw a Muslim would be either in the occupied cities or at the point of your/his sword.

These guys are using the internet to post videos of murders and many of the terrorist types have lived in the West.

Privative ignorance is not an excuse, its a death cult with a culture of hate from birth that is to blame.

And while for some reason the Crusades are constantly used as we 'well we were just as bad' the Crusades would never have happened it if weren't for prior Islamic military expansion which they had been trying to (and almost successfully) to conquerer Europe for years. Its not like we just decided 'hey lets kill those non-Christians'.

After all its Istanbul not Constantinople for a reason.

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

We single out Islam because they are the problem.

Look in the highest office in our nation and tell me Islam is your and my problem more than, say, Christianity. Bush is blatantly messianic. How often does he use "evil" where "criminal" would be more correct. How often does he invoke the name of god in his explanation of foreign policies that happen to coincide with the interest of the country which currently houses Jerusalem? You're an atheist just like me; you should be able to have some perspective on this.

Ustwo · 11-30-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Look in the highest office in our nation and tell me Islam is your and my problem more than, say, Christianity. Bush is blatantly messianic. How often does he use "evil" where "criminal" would be more correct. How often does he invoke the name of god in his explanation of foreign policies that happen to coincide with the interest of the country which currently houses Jerusalem? You're an atheist just like me; you should be able to have some perspective on this.

Over use of religious language = bad.

Teaching your children that they should blow themselves up in a suicide attack as religious martyrs = superduper bad.

roachboy · 11-30-2007, 06:49 PM

jesus christ, this is depressing.

there's an article here:

http://www.unhcr.org/publ/RSDCOI/3ae6a6b914.html

that actually talks about the sudan, its very particular form of government, its curious organization and ideology.
it's a bit outdated--it seems to have been written around 2001--but it took about 30 seconds to find and abuot 5 minutes to read and gives enough background information to shortcircuit this idiotic "something must be done about islam" line that keeps cropping up here.

think about it: if you're going to talk about this situation IN THE SUDAN, dont you think it reasonable to talk about the sudan?

and such articles are easy to pile up---it just requires a *little bit* of research---nothing stressful i'm sure you can do it. it will take you less time that it will to write another rehash of the huntington "thesis."

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Over use of religious language = bad.

Teaching your children that they should blow themselves up in a suicide attack as religious martyrs = superduper bad.

I'm sure someone as intelligent as you has wondered how much of our current involvement in the ME may have to do with theism.

Teaching your children that they should blow themselves up in a suicide attack as religious martyrs = superduper bad.

Being directly responsible the the deaths of over 1m people since 2003 because Jesus said so = way worse than suicide bombers.

Edit: RB, that's a good article. I hope everyone reads it.

djtestudo · 11-30-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

jesus christ, this is depressing.

there's an article here:

http://www.unhcr.org/publ/RSDCOI/3ae6a6b914.html

that actually talks about the sudan, its very particular form of government, its curious organization and ideology.
it's a bit outdated--it seems to have been written around 2001--but it took about 30 seconds to find and abuot 5 minutes to read and gives enough background information to shortcircuit this idiotic "something must be done about islam" line that keeps cropping up here.

think about it: if you're going to talk about this situation IN THE SUDAN, dont you think it reasonable to talk about the sudan?

and such articles are easy to pile up---it just requires a *little bit* of research---nothing stressful i'm sure you can do it. it will take you less time that it will to write another rehash of the huntington "thesis."

Roach, pretend for a minute that I know nothing about religion, economics, or world geopolitics, and just tell me what the hell is going on.

Baraka_Guru · 11-30-2007, 07:46 PM

In a nutshell: fundamentalism, nationalism, reformation?

roachboy · 11-30-2007, 07:54 PM

i cant pretend to know in much detail, and i have to go in any event, but i bit this background section from the linked article and paste it here.

what's happening seems in general terms consistent with this, yes?

very strange regime.
i'm kinda curious about it now, actually.

Quote:

2. THE INTELLECTUAL FOUNDATIONS OF THE SUDANESE ISLAMIST REGIME[1]

Western views of Islamist movements tend to be simplified and monolithical. Broadly speaking they are regarded either as belonging to an "Iranian" model or to an "Algerian" one. A fiercely religious state in one case, a madly violent insurgent group in another. The Sudanese Islamist movement is neither. It is a well-organized political movement with a large number of satellite organizations (women's groups, professional associations, press groups and so on) largely patterned on the organizational structure of the old-style communist parties. It has existed for fifty years under a variety of names and has finally reached power after protracted political struggle.

It started as al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun (the Moslem Brothers) in the 1940s and 1950s, became al-Jebha al-Mithaq al-Islamiya (the Islamic Charter Front) in 1964 after the fall of the Abboud dictatorship, existed clandestinely during the Nimeiry years without a name, turned into al-Jebha al-Qaumiya al-Islamiya (the National Islamic Front) after Nimeiry's fall in 1985, dissolved itself during the 1989 coup d'état (which it had organized) and was recently (January 1996) reborn in the form of a "national" single party with the name of Mutammar al-Watani (Patriotic Congress - PC). This development has been possible because of a fundamental characteristic: in spite of its chameleon-like quality and many names the movement has held to an unswerving view of its ultimate goal - the creation of a modernized version of an Islamic State. All the while, as it turned and twisted into many different tactical positions, the Sudanese Islamic Movement has kept a clear view of what it was aiming at and never seemed to be overly concerned about moving practically in the opposite direction from its goal, as long as the goal itself remained clear.

How can this goal be defined and how does it articulate with day-to-day tactics? The Sudanese Islamist Movement is a direct heir to the original movement of the Moslem Brotherhood, created in the 1920s in Egypt by Hassan al-Banna. But very quickly, during the Abboud dictatorship of the 1950s, the Sudanese branch of the Movement started to distinguish itself both by its willingness to adopt modernist ideas and by its extremely realistic approach to practical politics. This meant two complementary things: firstly, in philosophical terms, a practical reopening of the doors of ijtihad,[2] and secondly, in political terms, an acknowledgement of modern realities. But it would be a mistake to see this resolute practice of ijtihad as some kind of "revisionist theology" leading to a modernist approach through the abhorred process of bida'a (innovation). The ijtihad advocated by the Sudanese Islamist movement is adaptive: it intends to change in order the better to preserve and its goal is an Islamic State ruled by shari'a, even if the practical modalities of that Islamic State have to be slightly different from the practice of the Caliphate. In other words, the Sudanese Islamist Movement aims at a conservative revolution, much in the same way as the Fascist movements of the 1920s and 1930s were aiming at a revolutionary re-arrangement of conservative ideas through the promotion of l'Impero Novo (the New Empire) or of the Volksgemeinschaft (National Community).

The key concept of the Sudanese Islamists is the concept of tawhid which, in the sense used by al-Turabi, can be translated by "unity of purpose". For Turabi, religious worship is not limited to the essentials of Islam (the five daily prayers, zakat and so on). As this world is only a transition to the Hereafter, any act, including all kinds of worldly endeavours, can be seen as religiously meaningful. Thus anything is potentially religious if seen in the right light, if useful to the cause of Islam. This articulates with the notion of ketman (mental reservation) common in Islam. If a Moslem is faced with overwhelming force by the kuffar (unbelievers) he can lie, he can violate all the dictums of Islam, he can do anything as long as it is done with a mental ketman in which he says silently to himself: "this act is done for the good of Islam, bismi'llah er-Rahman er-Rahim [in the name of God the Merciful and the Misericordious]". This has led to the development of a form of Islamic casuistry, called Fiqh ad-Darura (the legal rules of necessity), not unlike the moral and political philosophy developed by the order of the Jesuits in Europe during the Counter-Reformation. Within such an intellectual framework the basic principle of Aristotelian logic, i.e. non-contradiction, does not apply. We have here a system of Islamic dialectics where elements do not exist by themselves and in themselves but only within a continuum where structures change and permute, where tactics is all and where principle is nothing, so long as the tactics can all be subsumed under the heading of a general goal, namely the Islamic State.

It is in this perpective that one needs to see the recent developments in the Sudan which seem at times paradoxical. "Democratic elections" which are neither democratic nor even elections, the signature of a "peace agreement" with allies and not with the enemy, a "political opening" created from the re-assertion of the same old slogans - these "developments" seem to be mere window dressing. But their promoters believe in them, and indeed such bizarre political devices have worked for the Sudanese Islamists in the past. For example during the time between the successful Islamist coup d'état in July 1989 and the end of that year, the National Islamic Front (NIF) leader Hassan al-Turabi was jailed and his party outlawed, when the truth was that the NIF had planned and carried out the coup d'état and Turabi was the brain behind the operation. But it was imperative at the time for the Islamists to avoid or at least to delay a possible counter-move supported by Egypt, whose General Intelligence Service had in fact also prepared a clandestine intervention, so that when Turabi's coup d'état took place there was considerable uncertainty about who was doing what.[3] Thus some almost theatrical arrangements were made, with Turabi being kept in jail during the day and going out secretly at night to attend important meetings. Absolutely improbable statements were released by the new government which denied having anything to do with the NIF. Ridiculous as this may sound it created enough of a doubt to prevent Cairo from undertaking any counter-move and it even fooled some of the country's most seasoned politicians who were jailed together with Turabi, including Mohamed Osman al-Mirghani, the present head of the opposition National Democratic Alliance.[4] With the success of such political antics to their credit, the Islamists in Sudan believe in the power of the will and in the potential success of the improbable. Both depend on the help of God which they feel is behind them. After all even ordinary Sudanese will call their country, with tongue-in-cheek humour, beled al-farhat al-kubra (the land of the great wonders).

Ustwo · 11-30-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

jesus christ, this is depressing.

there's an article here:

http://www.unhcr.org/publ/RSDCOI/3ae6a6b914.html

that actually talks about the sudan, its very particular form of government, its curious organization and ideology.
it's a bit outdated--it seems to have been written around 2001--but it took about 30 seconds to find and abuot 5 minutes to read and gives enough background information to shortcircuit this idiotic "something must be done about islam" line that keeps cropping up here.

think about it: if you're going to talk about this situation IN THE SUDAN, dont you think it reasonable to talk about the sudan?

and such articles are easy to pile up---it just requires a *little bit* of research---nothing stressful i'm sure you can do it. it will take you less time that it will to write another rehash of the huntington "thesis."

If this were a local issue then yes, but either militant Islam is springing up independently in pretty much every location they come in contact with other belief systems, or there is an interconnectedness that allows for generalizations.

Charlatan · 11-30-2007, 08:57 PM

Militant Islam is a direct result of the political and social systems in which they are located.

It's interesting to note that in the Middle Eastern context the increasingly liberal nations are the ones that either never had oil or have run out of oil. The money that oil brings means that despots can remain in power, can limit free speech, keep international trade (beyond oil) to a minimum, buy off imams and political opponents, etc.

I have seen it suggested that as long as these nations can continue to drill for oil they have no need of drill the resources of their people.

There is a massive lack of education, employment and opportunities. When this sort of situation occurs people look for someone to blame. The West is a convenient scapegoat that has been offered up.

matthew330 · 11-30-2007, 10:19 PM

They're just freedom fighters for crying out loud. There is after all a point to blowing their own children up and rallying for the deaths of westerners who allow their children to call a teddy bear Mohammed.

....as Will pointed out, at least they aren't listening to Jesus.

Strange Famous · 11-30-2007, 11:01 PM

except there is The Kingdom

except there is the Taleban

except in Iran a rape victim was executed by the state last year

the common link in is Islamic extremism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

jesus christ, this is depressing.

there's an article here:

http://www.unhcr.org/publ/RSDCOI/3ae6a6b914.html

that actually talks about the sudan, its very particular form of government, its curious organization and ideology.
it's a bit outdated--it seems to have been written around 2001--but it took about 30 seconds to find and abuot 5 minutes to read and gives enough background information to shortcircuit this idiotic "something must be done about islam" line that keeps cropping up here.

think about it: if you're going to talk about this situation IN THE SUDAN, dont you think it reasonable to talk about the sudan?

and such articles are easy to pile up---it just requires a *little bit* of research---nothing stressful i'm sure you can do it. it will take you less time that it will to write another rehash of the huntington "thesis."

Willravel · 11-30-2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

except there is The Kingdom

except there is the Taleban

except in Iran a rape victim was executed by the state last year

the common link in is Islamic extremism.

Except there is Pat Robertson

except there are bombings of abortion clinics

except the KKK and the National Liberation Front of Tripura are officially Christian terrorist organizations

The common link has jack shit to do with Islam. The common link is ignorance. Ignorance and hatred spawn terrorism.

matthew330 · 11-30-2007, 11:48 PM

"radical Christianity is just as threatening as radical Islam in a country like America." - Rosie O'Donnel

I kinda think Rosie was holding back a bit when she said this, but that's not the point. The point is, Will, you obviously agree with her....and that is as ignorant as ignorant can get. Any attempt at comparing Christianity to the OP is so far off base it can only be considered hatred for Christianity.

You're such a terrorist Will, and you don't even know it.

...as an afterthought...read through this thread.

At some point, don't you people think to yourselves there's something wrong with this reaction:

When I hear of 600 people calling publicly for the death of a schoolteacher who was there to teach their children, or an entire geographic area calls for the death of a cartoonist because something offended them...my immediate reaction is to use my years of psychological, sociological, and political training to put it into perspective.

But when I hear about these crazy f'ers knocking on doors trying to tell me about their jahova.....pull out the fucking guillotine.

I won't ask because you've probably been poked in the eye by shards of glass from an exploding abortion clinic, and shot in the knee by a member of the KKK as you were walking by a church, but you seem willing enough to accept that the OP doesn't represent Islam, couldn't you at least give Christianity the same courtesy?

Baraka_Guru · 12-01-2007, 07:28 AM

Wow, this thread is taking a turn for the worse. Are we not prepared to establish the marked differences between following one's religion and carrying it away?

Willravel · 12-01-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

"radical Christianity is just as threatening as radical Islam in a country like America." - Rosie O'Donnel

I kinda think Rosie was holding back a bit when she said this, but that's not the point. The point is, Will, you obviously agree with her....and that is as ignorant as ignorant can get. Any attempt at comparing Christianity to the OP is so far off base it can only be considered hatred for Christianity.

I've never once been ignorant in my life. The reality is that you simply compared me to someone generally viewed to be stupid and didn't speak of any evidence or logical conclusions against anything specific I said. Besides this being a logical fallacy (something common in your posts), it's not even an argument. "You're wrong." is generally followed by something. Something other than an insult, that is. Do you have something to say, or will it just be baseless insults?

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

You're such a terrorist Will, and you don't even know it.

Baseless insults it is, then. I acquire and spread knowledge whereas religions spreads fear. Maybe you should rethink what terrorism really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

When I hear of 600 people calling publicly for the death of a schoolteacher who was there to teach their children, or an entire geographic area calls for the death of a cartoonist because something offended them...my immediate reaction is to use my years of psychological, sociological, and political training to put it into perspective.

As someone who actually DOES have years of experience and education in the areas if psychology, I feel it necessary to question the validity of your claim as to having training in those fields. You've been posting on TFP even longer than I have, but I've never seen any evidence of such training.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

I won't ask because you've probably been poked in the eye by shards of glass from an exploding abortion clinic, and shot in the knee by a member of the KKK as you were walking by a church, but you seem willing enough to accept that the OP doesn't represent Islam, couldn't you at least give Christianity the same courtesy?

That was of course my point. Just as the KKK and NLFT don't represent Christianity, these isolated incidents don't represent Islam. If you read all my posts in this thread, you should see that was my point from the get go. All religions have extremists in them, which do not represent the whole. To suggest that they do represent the whole is to ignore the fact that such a small percentage is radical. Out of the (estimated) 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, there are only a few thousand who are radical, and most of them live in deeply impoverished and war torn areas.

Strange Famous · 12-01-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Except there is Pat Robertson

except there are bombings of abortion clinics

except the KKK and the National Liberation Front of Tripura are officially Christian terrorist organizations

The common link has jack shit to do with Islam. The common link is ignorance. Ignorance and hatred spawn terrorism.

Pat Robertson is a good example.

Pat Robertson is a powerless lunatic

Usama Bin Laden has millions of followers.

Bin Laden might be a bit more intelligent, but his basic message is just as crazy.

Willravel · 12-01-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Pat Robertson is a good example.

Pat Robertson is a powerless lunatic

Usama Bin Laden has millions of followers.

Bin Laden might be a bit more intelligent, but his basic message is just as crazy.

Pat Robertson has millions of followers. Or do you think the 700 Club has been on the air since 1966 just for fun?

Strange Famous · 12-01-2007, 02:37 PM

I dont think Pat Robertson has organised any major terrorist attacks that kill 1000's of civilians yet.

I never claimed that every religion did not have its extremists and its nutcases.... but this trait in Islam is out of control.

If you dont think that Saudi Arabia is a problem with regards to the treatment of women, I dont understand you.

If you think that there are Christian countries behaving in this way, I dont know them.

Sudan is NOT a one off. The Taleban are not one off's.

I am not claiming that the only villians in this world are Muslims, but Islam has twin problems - the alienation of Islamic youth from the globalised norm, and the growing connection of religion with violence and opression of women in Islam. These are serious.

I know quite a few Muslims, and this not a problem that the liberal side of Islam ignores or brushes off... its pretty funny that the Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the Sudanese people, and it is only middle class white liberals who are defending them and claiming the school teacher should be punished for "cultural insensitivity"

In the American internment camp where they hold Muslims without charge or protection of international or national law (Guatanamo Bay?) - one of the "tortures" that they use against Muslims is to urinate on a copy of the Qu'ran in their presence. This badly effects the prisoner, and causes utter outrage in Islamic countries.

I know many religious Christians. I cant imagine anyone particularly being anguished if someone urinated on a Bible.

Willravel · 12-01-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I dont think Pat Robertson has organised any major terrorist attacks that kill 1000's of civilians yet.

That's because his followers don't live in an impoverished, war torn region. If you remove war and poverty from the Middle East, you remove the bite of radical fundamentalism. That's my point.

Strange Famous · 12-01-2007, 02:45 PM

Saudi has more oil than anyone (other than maybe the Russian empire - depending on where you draw the lines of that empire), and is by far the most volatile and extreme in terms of STATE religion (as well as the feelings of the working class)

11-30-2007, 12:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	first off, this situation in the sudan self-evidently is not indicative of islam in anything like a general sense, simply because muhammed is an extraordinarily common first name across most arabic-speaking countries where islam is a dominant religion--INCLUDING the sudan. so ANY attempt to make this about something more than the bizarre-o situation that confronts this woman in the sudan is ludicrous. and it is even more ludicrous that i--or anyone else--should feel the need to even say as much. you'd think it self-evident. it is obviously about the fact that this very common first name was interpreted by one of gillian gibbon's CO-WORKERS (i capitalize this because it amazes me) as blasphemous because the name was given BY THE STUDENTS OF HER CLASS to a teddy bear...(this tidbit about the co-worker is in today's guardian) there's a ton that i do not understand that happened between the lodging of some complaint to the present situation, and so i'm not even going to try to say anything about it. what is even more baffling is that this whole ridiculous affair is being used for political purposes. that you can see a rationale behind, i guess: i mean it's not as though the sudanese government has not come under a ton of pressure from the international "community" for the civil war in general and over allegations of its support for militias in darfur. but still...sheesh... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-30-2007 at 12:52 PM..

11-30-2007, 12:57 PM	#10 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	The world of the Dark Ages and the world today really couldn't be more different, particularly with respect to access to information which is what caused the Dark Ages in the first place. Falling literacy rates and the loss of the collected knowledge of Rome with the end of the Roman Empire? The tools are there, which they emphatically weren't during the Dark Age (well, they were, ironically, in the Middle East, but taking a multi-year voyage to learn in the Middle East was a lot harder than connecting to the internet). Last edited by Frosstbyte; 11-30-2007 at 01:00 PM..

11-30-2007, 02:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	wouldn't it be more accurate to say that in the sudan, a very problematic regime is in power? and that this particular situation is but one--and not a terribly significant one--example of this? i say not terribly significant because, well, there's darfur. there's been a civil war. who the hell knows how many people have been massacred in these contexts? that a nice school teacher from england is in jail because she let her class name a teddy bear muhammed is surreal, but it doesnt demonstrate anything--AT ALL---about islam in general. and why would you advocate military action over this? i dont remember seeing anything from you (or anyone else here, really) arguing that darfur was a massive human rights disaster that required international intervention? the "community" almost addressed this question a couple years ago, but dodged it by deciding that darfur was "genocide-like" or "genocide-ish" but not genocide because that would have required action. nothing about that: outrage about this. i really do not understand your priorities, where they lay, what they are. and i'm in no way condoning what is happening to this poor woman. i just dont understand why her situation is more important than that of hundreds of thousands of human beings in darfur. for example. please dont make me speculate as to why that is. i really dont want to go down that route. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-30-2007 at 02:32 PM..

11-30-2007, 02:43 PM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	She will be released this weekend anyway Ive been hearing. By all means we should interfered over Darfur. With strong protective force. By all means I would send in a warship and I would send my troops to take her out of prison... by peaceful means if possible.... and by killing anyone who tried to prevent it if necessary. This attack against one women, as insignificant as it may be in human terms compared to Darfur, is an attack against the dignity of our nation. It should not be tolerated. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-30-2007, 03:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how is this an attack? it was a bizarre legal case... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-30-2007, 10:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	"military response"? are you daft? over a schoolteacher? I never would have picked you to be trigger-happy. Seems to me that the days of "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" are long dead.

11-30-2007, 12:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	I was going to post this article, but I'm having a hard time formulating coherently how poorly I understand what's happened. The worst this could possibly be construed as being is a cultural misunderstanding. There was no suggestion that they were treating the bear as any sort of idol. There was no suggestion that it meant or was supposed to refer to the prophet in any way besides sharing a name. Why is it ok to name your snot-nosed brat Mohammed but not a teddy bear? If the name is sacred and can't be used, why can people name their kids after him without recourse? I didn't understand the degree of uproar over the cartoon whenever that happened, but I can appreciate why people would be offended by a cartoon mocking someone or something they believe is sacred. This uproar is simply outside any remote boundary of what should be considered a human thought process. It's utter insanity and beyond terrifying that people could reach this level of frenzy from something so totally insignificant. I know relatively little about the Muslim faith, but if everything in that faith is 100% true, I'm sure these people would be pretty surprised what the afterlife would hold for them if they killed her for her "sin."

11-30-2007, 12:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	I once knew a cat named Hitler.

11-30-2007, 01:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Is it really a growing trend? Or is it just that the small minority that is calling for her execution is getting better at using the media along with the fact that our media thrives on stories like this to make money? I don't think we should militarily respond to this as the incident itself leaves a huge black eye on the fundies that are railing against this woman. The more things like this happen the faster the mainstream islamics will come out against this sort of thing. Now I'm all for using diplomatic means to get this woman out of there ASAP. Also charitable organizations in that country should threaten to pull out immediately. Let's see how the country does without international support.

11-30-2007, 06:49 PM	#23 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	jesus christ, this is depressing. there's an article here: http://www.unhcr.org/publ/RSDCOI/3ae6a6b914.html that actually talks about the sudan, its very particular form of government, its curious organization and ideology. it's a bit outdated--it seems to have been written around 2001--but it took about 30 seconds to find and abuot 5 minutes to read and gives enough background information to shortcircuit this idiotic "something must be done about islam" line that keeps cropping up here. think about it: if you're going to talk about this situation IN THE SUDAN, dont you think it reasonable to talk about the sudan? and such articles are easy to pile up---it just requires a little bit of research---nothing stressful i'm sure you can do it. it will take you less time that it will to write another rehash of the huntington "thesis." __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-30-2007, 07:46 PM	#26 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	In a nutshell: fundamentalism, nationalism, reformation? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

11-30-2007, 08:57 PM	#29 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Militant Islam is a direct result of the political and social systems in which they are located. It's interesting to note that in the Middle Eastern context the increasingly liberal nations are the ones that either never had oil or have run out of oil. The money that oil brings means that despots can remain in power, can limit free speech, keep international trade (beyond oil) to a minimum, buy off imams and political opponents, etc. I have seen it suggested that as long as these nations can continue to drill for oil they have no need of drill the resources of their people. There is a massive lack of education, employment and opportunities. When this sort of situation occurs people look for someone to blame. The West is a convenient scapegoat that has been offered up. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-30-2007, 10:19 PM	#30 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	They're just freedom fighters for crying out loud. There is after all a point to blowing their own children up and rallying for the deaths of westerners who allow their children to call a teddy bear Mohammed. ....as Will pointed out, at least they aren't listening to Jesus.

11-30-2007, 11:48 PM	#33 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	"radical Christianity is just as threatening as radical Islam in a country like America." - Rosie O'Donnel I kinda think Rosie was holding back a bit when she said this, but that's not the point. The point is, Will, you obviously agree with her....and that is as ignorant as ignorant can get. Any attempt at comparing Christianity to the OP is so far off base it can only be considered hatred for Christianity. You're such a terrorist Will, and you don't even know it. ...as an afterthought...read through this thread. At some point, don't you people think to yourselves there's something wrong with this reaction: When I hear of 600 people calling publicly for the death of a schoolteacher who was there to teach their children, or an entire geographic area calls for the death of a cartoonist because something offended them...my immediate reaction is to use my years of psychological, sociological, and political training to put it into perspective. But when I hear about these crazy f'ers knocking on doors trying to tell me about their jahova.....pull out the fucking guillotine. I won't ask because you've probably been poked in the eye by shards of glass from an exploding abortion clinic, and shot in the knee by a member of the KKK as you were walking by a church, but you seem willing enough to accept that the OP doesn't represent Islam, couldn't you at least give Christianity the same courtesy? Last edited by matthew330; 12-01-2007 at 12:04 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

12-01-2007, 07:28 AM	#34 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Wow, this thread is taking a turn for the worse. Are we not prepared to establish the marked differences between following one's religion and carrying it away? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

12-01-2007, 02:37 PM	#38 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I dont think Pat Robertson has organised any major terrorist attacks that kill 1000's of civilians yet. I never claimed that every religion did not have its extremists and its nutcases.... but this trait in Islam is out of control. If you dont think that Saudi Arabia is a problem with regards to the treatment of women, I dont understand you. If you think that there are Christian countries behaving in this way, I dont know them. Sudan is NOT a one off. The Taleban are not one off's. I am not claiming that the only villians in this world are Muslims, but Islam has twin problems - the alienation of Islamic youth from the globalised norm, and the growing connection of religion with violence and opression of women in Islam. These are serious. I know quite a few Muslims, and this not a problem that the liberal side of Islam ignores or brushes off... its pretty funny that the Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the Sudanese people, and it is only middle class white liberals who are defending them and claiming the school teacher should be punished for "cultural insensitivity" In the American internment camp where they hold Muslims without charge or protection of international or national law (Guatanamo Bay?) - one of the "tortures" that they use against Muslims is to urinate on a copy of the Qu'ran in their presence. This badly effects the prisoner, and causes utter outrage in Islamic countries. I know many religious Christians. I cant imagine anyone particularly being anguished if someone urinated on a Bible. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-01-2007, 02:45 PM	#40 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Saudi has more oil than anyone (other than maybe the Russian empire - depending on where you draw the lines of that empire), and is by far the most volatile and extreme in terms of STATE religion (as well as the feelings of the working class) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas