11-14-2007, 12:41 PM | #1 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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Comparing Ron Paul to the "Serious" Candidates
A while back, I did a thread here about the career and political views of Huey P. Long. No one responded. History says that Roosevelt was the prime populist mover of the 30's. The SSA.gov history pages say otherwise.
What is it that makes a politician "mainstream"? What is it that makes people view themselves as "centrists", middle of the road? Is it necessary for a "serious" candidate for US president to have been right, on major issues on his resume, much of the time, once in a while, or doesn't matter? Could it be that the majority of likely US voters are actaully of "unhinged", and incoherent sentiments? I'm suspecting it's so. My question is whether the major part of the US electorate is so "glued to the center", that the 2008 presidential candidates who are widely viewed as the "serious" ones, are actually the unglued "nut cases" bought off by corporate interests, and the candidates who have a more reliable view and, in hindsight, track record, are viewed as the extremists? Are we where we are....divided right down the middle, federal finances shattered, freedoms under threat, and involved in endless, bankrupting and grinding war, because of the electorate's support of the "centrist" candidates, and those who have been elected in the past, were and are people who are not centrists, at all? Could it be that the centrist electorate and the media, all of the opinion that they perceive "reason" and measured solutions, are not at all reasonable...that they actually promote and push nutcases to the top? Quote:
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11-14-2007, 02:05 PM | #2 (permalink) |
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
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So wait, what is your discussion point again? I've read your whole post twice and I can't determine what comparison you're making. You don't actually mention Ron Paul except in your title and your second article fragment.
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11-15-2007, 12:31 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
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Would obsessing about, or shilling with "September 11th", be grounds to disqualify a presidential candidate?
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I touched on Clinton's shortcomings in the OP opinion piece, Obama can be accused of excessive corporate sponsorship and a shady residential real estate purchase, Rudy seems to be tainted by his sponsorship of Kerik and his 9/11 obsession, and his neocon advisory council, and the rest who receive press coverage have some of the deficiencies described above. Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and even with his much maligned haricut, John Edwards, all seem to be the candidates not "on the fringe". |
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11-15-2007, 03:40 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I think the problem rests with the press choosing our "mainstream" candidates by the amount of coverage they alot to the field. Who are they to decide a candidate's "electability" and then rave about Rudy and mock Ron Paul? To answer my own question, "they" are owned by corporations that profit from war.
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11-15-2007, 04:03 PM | #5 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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11-15-2007, 04:12 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I would hope that Canada still has a free press.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-15-2007, 05:44 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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11-15-2007, 07:09 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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Regardless of that, is it not the media's job to examine and explore the candidates? To both report their activities as objectively as possible as well as editorialize with opinions? It seems to me this is the function of the press in thriving democracy. To complain about the media without first recognizing this can be problematic. I would argue that media consolidation and a shift in general from "hard news" to "entertaining news" has resulted in a general drop in quality of the coverage on offer. That said, another part of the equation in a thriving democracy is an active citizenry. If the media is not doing their job satisfactorily there are other sources of information. The Internet offers an abundance of choice and diversity. It follows that if citizens are to remain engaged and informed that they need to seek this information out and in this day and age, it is getting more and more complicated. I think relying on the "media" as the problem is a bit of a crutch. As for the OP, I would argue that any candidate who ignores the reality of the threat of terrorism is an idiot who should not be elected. Conversely, anyone who appears to use that same threat as a one issue is showing their limitations as a candidate that can see the big picture. Any candidate needs to be able to fully address a plethora of issues.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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11-16-2007, 05:43 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Their positions on many issues, other than the Iraq war and bringing the troops home asap, are out of the mainstream. Unlike Paul, most Americans do not want to end Social Security and Medicare. Nor do they want a Medicare-type program for all citizens to replace their employer-based health care program like Kucinich. Most Americans do not want an end to many (most?) federal programs like Paul or an expansion of such programs like Kucinich....examples, most Americans do not want to eliminate federal aid for college education (Paul), but they also dont want a program to provide free full-day, full-calendar year prekindergarten education for every 3-5 year old in the country (Kucinich). Most Americans dont want an end to unemployment compensation (Paul) nor do they want a guaranteed government job for all able-bodied unemployed (Kucinich). Most Americans dont support shutting down the EPA and leaving environmental protection to industry self-regulation (Paul) nor do they support the concept of clean and safe water as a "right" that takes federal regulation far beyond the current level (Kucinich). Most Americans may want to restore America's image around the world, but dont believe the US can end wars and civil conflict around the world through a Department of Peace (Kucinich) nor do they want the US to remove itself from participation as a partner in the international community (Paul). Consider most Americans like Goldilocks.......the Ron Paul bed is too hard for most Americans (the federal government is too big and intrusive and acting unconstitutionally).....the Dennis Kucinich bed is too soft (an expanded federal government is the solution to all social and economic ills in the country). ....the current bed is just right for most...they just want new clean sheets (a more efficient and less wasteful and corrupt federal government that is more responsive to the people and less responsive to special interests). host...where I agree with you is in regard to the obscene level of special interest funding of campaigns of the other candidates....2008 will be the first $billion election. That issue needs to be addressed through serious campaign reform, Congressional ethics reform and a greater emphasis on government accountability, but dont confuse that with the extreme positions of Paul and Kucinich.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-16-2007 at 06:32 AM.. |
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11-16-2007, 02:19 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Ustwo, do you have a point of some kind?
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-16-2007, 02:55 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Elphaba, the press is still free to write what they wish, there is no censorship per se. That said, I can agree that with media consolidation there has been a lessening of the diversity of voice in the "mainstream" media.
However, I think it is safe to say that the media was never "objective" as such. The news sections were (and to a large extent still are) relatively objective in their reporting (the bias has always come through in what they choose to write about). The editorial sections have always been biased, that's their raison d'etre. The big difference is that with increasing media consolidation, you end up with fewer points of view. With the shift from the written word to the moving image, we have gone from indepth coverage to surface reading. All of that said, the onus is still on the citizen to do their legwork. To spend time researching their candidates. This means finding more than one source of information. And in this day and age, even with media consolidation, there are many, many alternative sources of information. There is no excuse, other than a lack of interest, for not doing your research. The onus is on the citizen.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
11-16-2007, 03:31 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I was very impressed with Kucinich in the last debate, especially his comment about voting on the Patriot Act. For me, Paul and Kucinich are the only serious candidates.
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11-16-2007, 04:40 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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But I am confused that you consider Kucinich a serious candidate when most of his domestic proposals and agenda are built around an expansive role of the federal government that you consider unconstitutional. Care to explain the contradiction in your thinking?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-16-2007 at 04:42 PM.. |
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11-16-2007, 05:30 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Besides, Paul and Kucinich, all I can see are bought and paid for lie to your face politicians. I'd rather have a candidate who at least has a concern for me and is doing everything in their power to help me even if I don't agree with how they are going about it. Even though he'd implement socialist polices, the country would be way better off since he'd get us out of Iraq and foreign entaglemens, and repeal the post 9/11 anti-terror laws. Next to Paul, I don't see any other candidate running who'd I'd rather see as President (maybe Gravel in their too, is he even running still?)
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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11-16-2007, 06:02 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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So after Paul, you would rather see someone as president who you strongly believe would be acting illegally based on your reading of the Constitution rather than someone you think is "bought and paid for".
Sorry, but IMO, that says alot about your commitment to your interpretation of the Constitution.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
11-16-2007, 06:24 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I guess I could support someone who is bought and paid for and follow an illegal view of the constitution, or I can vote for someone who isn't bought and paid for and is at least trying to act in the best intrest of the constitution and the American people.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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11-16-2007, 06:31 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I guess thats the difference between us...I could never support or vote for someone like Ron Paul because of his misguided interpretation of the Constitution and his core beliefs that are so counter to mine. I also dont consider politicians anti-American simply because I dont share their political views or their interpretation of the Constitution or because they make use of the legal campaign financing structure that I happen to disagree with. Now I'm curious.....which of the Democratic candidates are "anti-American"?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-16-2007 at 07:19 PM.. |
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11-16-2007, 06:39 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I am far more critical of our electorate than you might think. It is not only lack of interest in educating oneself in important issues, but a profound laziness of thought that is fed by our current entertainment based media. Which brings us back into agreement, once again.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-16-2007, 08:18 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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11-16-2007, 10:21 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich are most certainly fringe candidates. I've voiced my complaints about Paul in the thread about him a few weeks ago, and to select a few issues I have with Kucinich, I'll go with his ultra-restrictive and unconstitutional gun control views, and his support of slavery reparations.
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Edwards claims to be in favor of lowering greenhouse gas emissions but is opposed to further development of nuclear power, the only safe and viable technology that can reduce greenhouse gas emissions in energy production to zero. Edwards claims to support the constitution while supporting a renewal of the 1994 assault weapons ban, a law that blatantly violates the constitution and did nothing to prevent violent crime or gun crime. He fails my test for hypocrisy. |
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11-17-2007, 04:08 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Edwards has publically stated in the gay issues debate that he would not impose his beliefs regarding gay marriage on others. He is honest in his personal belief without imposing that belief on others. Where is the hypocrisy? We have a poor record in nuclear energy development and we have yet to solve the nuclear waste issue. That is a huge downside among our choices of alternative energy, and I find no hypocrisy in weighing the pros and cons of each. Reasonable people can agree that the Constitution says nothing about private citizens owning assault weapons. The debate about what the right to "bear arms" means in today's environment, provides more heat than light. Ultimately, it will not matter what I or anyone else thinks about the matter because only the Supreme Court can interpret the Constitution. I don't see the contradiction in Edwards' position that you perceive.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-18-2007, 05:33 PM | #22 (permalink) | |
Insane
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11-18-2007, 06:30 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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An informed citizenry is key. A free press is key. Legally we in the West have a free press. I would argue that spin, bias, etc. have always been a factor and that any instances we see of it today are either a) due to there just being more of it (i.e. more choice of information = more chance for spin) or b) our citizenry is increasingly media savvy and therefore better able to spot the spin or counter-spin. As for informed citizenry. I think we agree that people are disengaged. Do we know that people were ever engaged? I can well imagine that in the early days of democracy in the West, or the early days of America, when the populations were much lower that being engaged was an easier thing. But the fact is, people are busy dealing with life. They don't necessarily like or care who does what as long as they have a relatively "good life". Being informed or even well-informed takes a lot of effort. Effort that many are not willing to make OR do not have the time to make.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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11-18-2007, 06:42 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: In transit
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Remember, wherever you go... there you are. |
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11-18-2007, 07:27 PM | #25 (permalink) | |||||
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11-18-2007, 08:09 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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When any president trusts a news caster for his opinion, we got issues on many levels, and thats any president, past or future.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-18-2007, 09:31 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Was Cronkite good at what he did? Yes. Was Murrow good at what he did? Yes. I don't know that just because the marketing folks at CBS tell me that someone is "the most trusted man in America" I should believe them. I think this goes right back to what I was saying about our public becoming increasingly media literate. In the past things could be take much more at face value. Today, viewers are more likely to ask questions.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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11-18-2007, 11:11 PM | #28 (permalink) | ||||
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I don't think you appreciate how your POV of "liberal influence" on the outcome of the Vietnam war affects your overall perception of recent American history and of today's political dynamic. Would you mind sharing sources with us that have shaped your "liberals did it" opinion of the outcome of US military involvement in Vietnam? It would help if you have sources of similar stature and responsibility for what went on there, as Macnamara and Westmoreland offer. Quote:
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11-19-2007, 12:11 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Ustwo, just once back up your bull with facts. Not even McNamera agrees with the nonsense you posted here.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-20-2007, 05:04 AM | #30 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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I don't see how you can say that Ustwo's post doesn't stand up to scrutiny? What support should an opinion require?
Roaeanne was the most watched woman in TV at one time. Cronkite was at his peak in a radically different time. He was on the air when there were really only three souces of television newsmedia and audiences were in the tens of millions. In today's mediascape he would be just another voice among many and he would be under a lot more scrutiny as these many voices have given us more and varied points of view. As for Vietnam. I think it's a very safe thing to say that America left Vietnam to totalitarian rule whether or not more or less lives were saved by the US leaving when they did is open for debate. I don't think it's all that cut and dry. The real question on Vietnam (and Iraq) has to do with why war was needed in the first place and again, this is still a matter of opinion and hindsight. Make no mistake, lessons were learned from Vietnam, they just might not be the lesson you think. Can you suggest what support Ustwo should supply to support his opinions?
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
11-20-2007, 11:15 AM | #31 (permalink) | |||||
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<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108864">Vietnam:Reagan's "Noble War", The Left forced the US to fight with one hand tied,Or? </a> Here is Ustwo's entire response to my argument and it's supporting articles/opinions, in that thread: Quote:
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WWII was fought and wrapped up in 45 months...Dec., 1941, to Aug., 1945 Ustwo refuses to accept that the US government lied to the American people about it's own conclusion of prospects for a military solution in Vietnam, and he refuses to debate it, but he keeps coming back, posting shit like this, all the same. Last edited by host; 11-20-2007 at 11:21 AM.. |
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11-20-2007, 01:44 PM | #32 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Of pristine language never quite obscene. With posts so deep and with cites Who contain quite a pungent bite Truth they show me for such a sham They never contain needless spam And while I sit here in my chair Agents of shadow scuttle everywhere While I pacify the simple folk Who shall never be shaken from our yolk. So you can rant and you can rave Shadow men like me shall never cave But when the revolution draws near Black helicopter swiftly shall appear And our plan shall be fulfilled A flat tax and people who pay their bills Now this kettles plan is laid bare Normal men need not despair TFP should be fun Not a bully pulpit for anyone So I leave you with this rhyme Not set in any time You have your views, I have mine I hope you feel good, I feel fine.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-20-2007, 03:02 PM | #33 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Ustwo....you're a better poet that policy analyst!
But thats just my opinion. To blame the media for what the principal architect of the Vietnam war (McNamara) admitted was a failed policy from the start, is certainly a stretch, to say the least.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
11-20-2007, 03:53 PM | #35 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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When the left does the same to Iraq, it won't be the result of any one man, but the culmination of many. Quote:
Some day I'll figure out how left brained people seem to relax and have more fun than right brained people. Really this truly baffles me as based on how they self describe I figure it should be the other way.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-20-2007, 04:13 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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The invasion should never have occurred in the manner in which it did. The Bush administration entered Iraq without a Gulf War 1 coalition. There was arguably a good reason to take out Saddam and doing this was going to be easy. It was what comes after Saddam that they need support to pull off. Regardless of the reasons for going in (anything from oil to building a stable democracy in the middle east) Iraq has been one giant fuck up of monumental proportion whether or not the so-called left decides to pull out or not.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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11-20-2007, 04:19 PM | #37 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The same applies to press coverage in Iraq. Would you prefer the press to ignore the virtual ethnic cleansing in many neighborhoods in Baghdad? The fleeing of millions of the Iraqi middle class to avoid the sectarian violence? The killing of civiilans by US troops and private security forces? The lack of basic resources like water and electricity for much of the country? The corruption of the new Iraqi government? The role of the Shiite militias in that government? The total lack of any progress in political reconciliation? Should the role of the press in war time be restricted to supporting the policy of its government....right or wrong?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-20-2007 at 07:35 PM.. |
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11-20-2007, 06:39 PM | #38 (permalink) | |||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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We've got a nation of 27 million people under our direct and indirect control, we need to make good on our promises. Not keeping them would be a true monumental fuck up.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-20-2007, 07:42 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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How can it be saved and won by a continued US occupation? (leaving aside the bullshit blah blah about what liberals would say about it if a democrat wins the WH). We made good on our promise....we got rid of Saddam.. Now its up to the Iraqis and its hard to be optimistic. How does our further presence bring the Iraqi government closer to political reconciliation? How much progress have they made in the last year on the 18 political/economic benchmarks?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-20-2007 at 08:09 PM.. |
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11-21-2007, 02:44 PM | #40 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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