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Old 11-14-2007, 12:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Comparing Ron Paul to the "Serious" Candidates

A while back, I did a thread here about the career and political views of Huey P. Long. No one responded. History says that Roosevelt was the prime populist mover of the 30's. The SSA.gov history pages say otherwise.

What is it that makes a politician "mainstream"? What is it that makes people view themselves as "centrists", middle of the road? Is it necessary for a "serious" candidate for US president to have been right, on major issues on his resume, much of the time, once in a while, or doesn't matter?

Could it be that the majority of likely US voters are actaully of "unhinged", and incoherent sentiments? I'm suspecting it's so.

My question is whether the major part of the US electorate is so "glued to the center", that the 2008 presidential candidates who are widely viewed as the "serious" ones, are actually the unglued "nut cases" bought off by corporate interests, and the candidates who have a more reliable view and, in hindsight, track record, are viewed as the extremists?

Are we where we are....divided right down the middle, federal finances shattered, freedoms under threat, and involved in endless, bankrupting and grinding war, because of the electorate's support of the "centrist" candidates, and those who have been elected in the past, were and are people who are not centrists, at all? Could it be that the centrist electorate and the media, all of the opinion that they perceive "reason" and measured solutions, are not at all reasonable...that they actually promote and push nutcases to the top?

Quote:
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c...extremists.php

....The trouble, though, is that on top of his out-of-the-mainstream views, Paul is also a huge weirdo who seems a bit crazy. Rebecca Traister made some <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/05/kucinich/">similar points</a> about Dennis Kucinich. The difficulty is that in a country as big as the United States, it's easy for a set of views to simultaneously be very unpopular and also be supported by millions of people, but out of those millions of people the folks who decide to enter electoral politics in order to take on a principled, "no compromise with the electorate" approach are going to be the eccentrics. More normal, well-adjusted people with extremist views are going to prefer to do something less frustrated and isolating with their lives.

As a result, views like Kucinich's social democracy and Paul's libertarianism wind up represented by eccentric politicians, which winds up making their views seem weirder than they deserve to be.
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...aul/index.html
Monday November 12, 2007 14:31 EST
Ron Paul distortions and smears

......" A "principled conservative" is someone who aggressively objects to the radicalism of the neocons and the Bush/Cheney assault on our constitution and embraces a conservative political ideology. That's what Ron Paul is, and it's hardly a surprise that he holds many views anathema to most liberals. That hardly makes him a "fruitcake."

<h3>Hillary Clinton supported the invasion of a sovereign country that had not attacked us and could not attack us -- as did some of the commentators now aggressively questioning Ron Paul's mental health or, at least, his "seriousness." She supported the occupation of that country for years -- until it became politically unpalatable. That war has killed hundreds of thousands of people at least and wreaked untold havoc on our country. Are those who supported that war extremist, or big weirdos, or fruitcakes?

Or how about her recent support for Joe Lieberman's Iran warmongering amendment, or her desire to criminalize flag burning, or her vow to strongly consider an attack on Iran if they obtain nuclear weapons? Is all of that sane, normal, and serious?

And I read every day that corporations and their lobbyists are the bane of our country, responsible for most of its ills. What does it say about her that her campaign is fueled in large part by support from exactly those factions? Are she and all of her supporters nonetheless squarely within the realm of the sane and normal?</h3> And none of this is to say anything of the Giulianis and Podhoretzs and Romneys and Krauthammers and Kristols with ideas so extreme and dangerous, yet still deemed "serious."

That isn't to say that nobody can ever be deemed extremist or even crazy. But I've heard Ron Paul speak many times now. There are a lot of views he espouses that I don't share. But he is a medical doctor and it shows; whatever else is true about him, he advocates his policies in a rational, substantive, and coherent way -- at least as thoughtful and critical as any other political figure on the national scene, if not more so. As the anti-Paul New York Sun noted today, Paul has been downright prescient for a long time in warning about the severe devaluation of the dollar.

And -- as the above-cited efforts to compel Congress to actually adhere to the Constitution demonstrate -- few people have been as vigorous in defense of Constitutional principles as those principles have been mangled and trampled upon by this administration while most of our establishment stood by meekly. That's just true.

Paul's efforts in that regard may be "odd" in the sense that virtually nobody else seemed to care all that much about systematic unconstitutional actions, but that hardly makes him a "weirdo." Sometimes -- as the debate over the Iraq War should have demonstrated once and for all -- the actual "fruitcake" positions are the ones that are held by the people who are welcome in our most respectable institutions and magazines, both conservative and liberal.

* * * * * *

This whole concept of singling out and labelling as "weirdos" and "fruitcakes" political figures because they espouse views that are held only by a small number of people is nothing more than an attempt to discredit someone without having to do the work to engage their arguments. It's actually a tactic right out of the seventh grade cafeteria. It's just a slothful mechanism for enforcing norms.

Under the right circumstances, enforcement of norms might have some utility. Where things are going relatively well, and the country has a healthy political dialogue, perhaps there isn't much of a need to expand the scope of ideas that we consider "normal." Having all the people whose views fit comfortably in the mainstream stigmatize as "fruitcakes" all those whose views are outside of the mainstream might, under those happy circumstances, bear little cost.

But our country isn't doing all that well right now. Our political dialogue isn't really vibrant or healthy. It seems rather self-evident that it is preferable to enlarge the scope of ideas that we consider and to expand the debates that we engage. The "norms" that have prevailed over the last six years have led the country quite astray and are in need of fundamental re-examination, at the very least. That a political figure (or pundit) clings loyally to prevailing norms isn't exactly evidence of their worth, let alone their mental health. The contrary proposition might actually be more plausible.

There is something disorienting about watching the same people who cheered much of this on, or who will enthusiastically support for President a candidate who enabled and cheered much of it on, trying to constrict debate by labeling as "weirdos" and "fruitcakes" those who have most aggressively opposed it all. As the debates of 2002 should have proved rather conclusively, the arguments that are deemed to be the province of the weirdos and losers may actually be the ideas that are right. They at least deserve an honest airing, especially in a presidential campaign with as much at stake as this one. .......

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Old 11-14-2007, 02:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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So wait, what is your discussion point again? I've read your whole post twice and I can't determine what comparison you're making. You don't actually mention Ron Paul except in your title and your second article fragment.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Would obsessing about, or shilling with "September 11th", be grounds to disqualify a presidential candidate?

Quote:
11.15.07 -- 11:12AM // <a href="http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/058951.php">link</a>
Really That Many Times?

A number of you who watched our Rudy Giuliani 9/11 commercial spoof in yesterday's episode of TPMtv have written in to ask, "Did you re-use any of those Giuliani 9/11 moments for effect? Were there any repeats? Or was every single clip a unique Rudy milking 9/11 moment?"

Well, don't tell him I told you this. But TPMtv producer/editor Ben Craw was actually kind of hurt that the question was even asked. Because, yes, every clip is unique. I actually handcuffed Ben to his editing chair and told him I didn't want to see him again until he came back with the montage of Rudy's moments trying to exploit 9/11 all the way to the White House.

Anyhow, by the time Ben was done putting the thing together he was pretty much fried. So even he didn't know how many individual clips were used.

So check it out if you missed it yesterday. And if you're a good counter, try to figure out how many individual clips are included ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ7-3M-YrdA
<h3>Can anyone post the name of a "leading" 2008 presidential candidate who is not a lunatic, a blatant hypocrite, or "bought off" by corporate donors, or "in bed" with religious fundamentalists?</h3>

I touched on Clinton's shortcomings in the OP opinion piece, Obama can be accused of excessive corporate sponsorship and a shady residential real estate purchase, Rudy seems to be tainted by his sponsorship of Kerik and his 9/11 obsession, and his neocon advisory council, and the rest who receive press coverage have some of the deficiencies described above.

Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and even with his much maligned haricut, John Edwards, all seem to be the candidates not "on the fringe".
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Can anyone post the name of a "leading" 2008 presidential candidate who is not a lunatic, a blatant hypocrite, or "bought off" by corporate donors, or "in bed" with religious fundamentalists?
I believe John Edwards might fit that characterization, if "leading" includes the top three or four of each party.

I think the problem rests with the press choosing our "mainstream" candidates by the amount of coverage they alot to the field. Who are they to decide a candidate's "electability" and then rave about Rudy and mock Ron Paul? To answer my own question, "they" are owned by corporations that profit from war.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
I think the problem rests with the press choosing our "mainstream" candidates by the amount of coverage they alot to the field. Who are they to decide a candidate's "electability" and then rave about Rudy and mock Ron Paul? To answer my own question, "they" are owned by corporations that profit from war.
Is that not a function of a free press?
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
Is that not a function of a free press?
Whoa...I guess I need to know what you think a "free" press means, because the US press is owned by those who have a big stake in who gets elected.

I would hope that Canada still has a free press.
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Whoa...I guess I need to know what you think a "free" press means, because the US press is owned by those who have a big stake in who gets elected.
Don't forget controlled by the Jews, thats the next line in that kind of reasoning.
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Whoa...I guess I need to know what you think a "free" press means, because the US press is owned by those who have a big stake in who gets elected.

I would hope that Canada still has a free press.
I would suspect that that is a different question, whether the press is "free" or not.

Regardless of that, is it not the media's job to examine and explore the candidates? To both report their activities as objectively as possible as well as editorialize with opinions?

It seems to me this is the function of the press in thriving democracy. To complain about the media without first recognizing this can be problematic. I would argue that media consolidation and a shift in general from "hard news" to "entertaining news" has resulted in a general drop in quality of the coverage on offer.

That said, another part of the equation in a thriving democracy is an active citizenry. If the media is not doing their job satisfactorily there are other sources of information. The Internet offers an abundance of choice and diversity. It follows that if citizens are to remain engaged and informed that they need to seek this information out and in this day and age, it is getting more and more complicated.

I think relying on the "media" as the problem is a bit of a crutch.

As for the OP, I would argue that any candidate who ignores the reality of the threat of terrorism is an idiot who should not be elected. Conversely, anyone who appears to use that same threat as a one issue is showing their limitations as a candidate that can see the big picture.

Any candidate needs to be able to fully address a plethora of issues.
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:43 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by host
Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and even with his much maligned haricut, John Edwards, all seem to be the candidates not "on the fringe".
host......Paul and Kucinich are absolutely "on the fringe" and not simply as a result of lack of funding or media exposure.

Their positions on many issues, other than the Iraq war and bringing the troops home asap, are out of the mainstream.

Unlike Paul, most Americans do not want to end Social Security and Medicare. Nor do they want a Medicare-type program for all citizens to replace their employer-based health care program like Kucinich.

Most Americans do not want an end to many (most?) federal programs like Paul or an expansion of such programs like Kucinich....examples, most Americans do not want to eliminate federal aid for college education (Paul), but they also dont want a program to provide free full-day, full-calendar year prekindergarten education for every 3-5 year old in the country (Kucinich). Most Americans dont want an end to unemployment compensation (Paul) nor do they want a guaranteed government job for all able-bodied unemployed (Kucinich).

Most Americans dont support shutting down the EPA and leaving environmental protection to industry self-regulation (Paul) nor do they support the concept of clean and safe water as a "right" that takes federal regulation far beyond the current level (Kucinich).

Most Americans may want to restore America's image around the world, but dont believe the US can end wars and civil conflict around the world through a Department of Peace (Kucinich) nor do they want the US to remove itself from participation as a partner in the international community (Paul).

Consider most Americans like Goldilocks.......the Ron Paul bed is too hard for most Americans (the federal government is too big and intrusive and acting unconstitutionally).....the Dennis Kucinich bed is too soft (an expanded federal government is the solution to all social and economic ills in the country). ....the current bed is just right for most...they just want new clean sheets (a more efficient and less wasteful and corrupt federal government that is more responsive to the people and less responsive to special interests).

host...where I agree with you is in regard to the obscene level of special interest funding of campaigns of the other candidates....2008 will be the first $billion election. That issue needs to be addressed through serious campaign reform, Congressional ethics reform and a greater emphasis on government accountability, but dont confuse that with the extreme positions of Paul and Kucinich.
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Old 11-16-2007, 02:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
I would suspect that that is a different question, whether the press is "free" or not.

Regardless of that, is it not the media's job to examine and explore the candidates? To both report their activities as objectively as possible as well as editorialize with opinions?
This is exactly my point in that we are not getting objective reporting of the political candidates. As you said yourself, our news has become commercialized and is no longer provided for the public good but with corporate interests in mind. Please tell me what is "free" of outside influence about that?

Ustwo, do you have a point of some kind?
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Old 11-16-2007, 02:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Elphaba, the press is still free to write what they wish, there is no censorship per se. That said, I can agree that with media consolidation there has been a lessening of the diversity of voice in the "mainstream" media.

However, I think it is safe to say that the media was never "objective" as such. The news sections were (and to a large extent still are) relatively objective in their reporting (the bias has always come through in what they choose to write about). The editorial sections have always been biased, that's their raison d'etre.

The big difference is that with increasing media consolidation, you end up with fewer points of view. With the shift from the written word to the moving image, we have gone from indepth coverage to surface reading.

All of that said, the onus is still on the citizen to do their legwork. To spend time researching their candidates. This means finding more than one source of information. And in this day and age, even with media consolidation, there are many, many alternative sources of information. There is no excuse, other than a lack of interest, for not doing your research.

The onus is on the citizen.
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Old 11-16-2007, 03:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I was very impressed with Kucinich in the last debate, especially his comment about voting on the Patriot Act. For me, Paul and Kucinich are the only serious candidates.
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Old 11-16-2007, 04:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by samcol
I was very impressed with Kucinich in the last debate, especially his comment about voting on the Patriot Act. For me, Paul and Kucinich are the only serious candidates.
I agree that both Paul and Kucinich are right on the Patriot Act.

But I am confused that you consider Kucinich a serious candidate when most of his domestic proposals and agenda are built around an expansive role of the federal government that you consider unconstitutional.

Care to explain the contradiction in your thinking?
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
I agree that both Paul and Kucinich are right on the Patriot Act.

But I am confused that you consider Kucinich a serious candidate when most of his domestic proposals and agenda are built around an expansive role of the federal government that you consider unconstitutional.

Care to explain the contradiction in your thinking?
Although I disagree with many of Kucinich's positions, I sense his genuine concern for the country. He puts his money where his mouth is. One of the few Democrats running who voted against the war and patriot act and is pushing through impeachment despite oposition from his own party. I can respect that despite his solutions to problems, which is where I support Paul over him.

Besides, Paul and Kucinich, all I can see are bought and paid for lie to your face politicians. I'd rather have a candidate who at least has a concern for me and is doing everything in their power to help me even if I don't agree with how they are going about it. Even though he'd implement socialist polices, the country would be way better off since he'd get us out of Iraq and foreign entaglemens, and repeal the post 9/11 anti-terror laws.

Next to Paul, I don't see any other candidate running who'd I'd rather see as President (maybe Gravel in their too, is he even running still?)
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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So after Paul, you would rather see someone as president who you strongly believe would be acting illegally based on your reading of the Constitution rather than someone you think is "bought and paid for".

Sorry, but IMO, that says alot about your commitment to your interpretation of the Constitution.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
So after Paul, you would rather see someone as president who you strongly believe would be acting illegally based on your reading of the Constitution rather than someone you think is "bought and paid for".

Sorry, but IMO, that says alot about your commitment to your interpretation of the Constitution.
please... I actually acknowledge that I like a liberal for president, and you slam me that he doesn't support my view of the constitution. I mean honestly, I would much rather have Paul, but which other constitution hating, anti-american, fake anti-war liberal would you rather me support?

I guess I could support someone who is bought and paid for and follow an illegal view of the constitution, or I can vote for someone who isn't bought and paid for and is at least trying to act in the best intrest of the constitution and the American people.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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please... I actually acknowledge that I like a liberal for president, and you slam me that he doesn't support my view of the constitution. I mean honestly, I would much rather have Paul, but which other constitution hating, anti-american, fake anti-war liberal would you rather me support?

I guess I could support someone who is bought and paid for and follow an illegal view of the constitution, or I can vote for someone who isn't bought and paid for and is at least trying to act in the best intrest of the constitution and the American people.
hey...i think its cool that you could support (or vote for) a liberal/progressive (socialist to some) who would violate your core constitutional values. And its great that you believe that Kucinich is "trying to act in the best interest of the Constitution and the American people" with proposals like free year-round day care for all 3-5 yr olds in the country and a government job for all unemployed adults.

I guess thats the difference between us...I could never support or vote for someone like Ron Paul because of his misguided interpretation of the Constitution and his core beliefs that are so counter to mine.

I also dont consider politicians anti-American simply because I dont share their political views or their interpretation of the Constitution or because they make use of the legal campaign financing structure that I happen to disagree with.

Now I'm curious.....which of the Democratic candidates are "anti-American"?
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
Elphaba, the press is still free to write what they wish, there is no censorship per se. That said, I can agree that with media consolidation there has been a lessening of the diversity of voice in the "mainstream" media.

However, I think it is safe to say that the media was never "objective" as such. The news sections were (and to a large extent still are) relatively objective in their reporting (the bias has always come through in what they choose to write about). The editorial sections have always been biased, that's their raison d'etre.

The big difference is that with increasing media consolidation, you end up with fewer points of view. With the shift from the written word to the moving image, we have gone from indepth coverage to surface reading.

All of that said, the onus is still on the citizen to do their legwork. To spend time researching their candidates. This means finding more than one source of information. And in this day and age, even with media consolidation, there are many, many alternative sources of information. There is no excuse, other than a lack of interest, for not doing your research.

The onus is on the citizen.
I don't see where we are in any disagreement except perhaps the extent to which it appears that you are blaming the voter. Better minds than ours have insisted that a well informed citizenry is critical to a thriving democracy. I ask you to what extent is it reasonable for the average citizen to cull through the tsunami of information (good and bad) that currently exists, and somehow come up with an informed decision? Very few people are willing to make that investment in time and we are fortunate to find a few of them in this forum. In contrast, we also have a lack of interest in anything that intrudes upon one's worldview.

I am far more critical of our electorate than you might think. It is not only lack of interest in educating oneself in important issues, but a profound laziness of thought that is fed by our current entertainment based media. Which brings us back into agreement, once again.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
hey...i think its cool that you could support (or vote for) a liberal/progressive (socialist to some) who would violate your core constitutional values. And its great that you believe that Kucinich is "trying to act in the best interest of the Constitution and the American people" with proposals like free year-round day care for all 3-5 yr olds in the country and a government job for all unemployed adults.

I guess thats the difference between us...I could never support or vote for someone like Ron Paul because of his misguided interpretation of the Constitution and his core beliefs that are so counter to mine.

I also dont consider politicians anti-American simply because I dont share their political views or their interpretation of the Constitution or because they make use of the legal campaign financing structure that I happen to disagree with.

Now I'm curious.....which of the Democratic candidates are "anti-American"?
Any of them that don't support ending the Iraq war and the post 9/11 security bills (through funding or direct withdrawl), namely anyone besides Kucinich, Paul, and Gravel.
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich are most certainly fringe candidates. I've voiced my complaints about Paul in the thread about him a few weeks ago, and to select a few issues I have with Kucinich, I'll go with his ultra-restrictive and unconstitutional gun control views, and his support of slavery reparations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
I believe John Edwards might fit that characterization, if "leading" includes the top three or four of each party.
Edwards supports gay rights right up to the point that they want to get married. It doesn't matter if you allow civil unions with the same rights as marriage, refusing to allow gay marriage is relegating them to a lower class and saying that they aren't good enough to deserve the same label as straight people.

Edwards claims to be in favor of lowering greenhouse gas emissions but is opposed to further development of nuclear power, the only safe and viable technology that can reduce greenhouse gas emissions in energy production to zero.

Edwards claims to support the constitution while supporting a renewal of the 1994 assault weapons ban, a law that blatantly violates the constitution and did nothing to prevent violent crime or gun crime.

He fails my test for hypocrisy.
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Edwards supports gay rights right up to the point that they want to get married. It doesn't matter if you allow civil unions with the same rights as marriage, refusing to allow gay marriage is relegating them to a lower class and saying that they aren't good enough to deserve the same label as straight people.

Edwards claims to be in favor of lowering greenhouse gas emissions but is opposed to further development of nuclear power, the only safe and viable technology that can reduce greenhouse gas emissions in energy production to zero.

Edwards claims to support the constitution while supporting a renewal of the 1994 assault weapons ban, a law that blatantly violates the constitution and did nothing to prevent violent crime or gun crime.

He fails my test for hypocrisy.
You and I view Edwards' positions from different perspectives.

Edwards has publically stated in the gay issues debate that he would not impose his beliefs regarding gay marriage on others. He is honest in his personal belief without imposing that belief on others. Where is the hypocrisy?

We have a poor record in nuclear energy development and we have yet to solve the nuclear waste issue. That is a huge downside among our choices of alternative energy, and I find no hypocrisy in weighing the pros and cons of each.

Reasonable people can agree that the Constitution says nothing about private citizens owning assault weapons. The debate about what the right to "bear arms" means in today's environment, provides more heat than light. Ultimately, it will not matter what I or anyone else thinks about the matter because only the Supreme Court can interpret the Constitution. I don't see the contradiction in Edwards' position that you perceive.
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Any of them that don't support ending the Iraq war and the post 9/11 security bills (through funding or direct withdrawl), namely anyone besides Kucinich, Paul, and Gravel.
You once again prove my point that Ron Paul supporters are single-issue voters.
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elphaba

I am far more critical of our electorate than you might think. It is not only lack of interest in educating oneself in important issues, but a profound laziness of thought that is fed by our current entertainment based media. Which brings us back into agreement, once again.
I have to wonder if the news media is worse today than it has been in the past or if today's "worse" is just this era's particular flavour of media.

An informed citizenry is key. A free press is key.

Legally we in the West have a free press. I would argue that spin, bias, etc. have always been a factor and that any instances we see of it today are either a) due to there just being more of it (i.e. more choice of information = more chance for spin) or b) our citizenry is increasingly media savvy and therefore better able to spot the spin or counter-spin.

As for informed citizenry. I think we agree that people are disengaged. Do we know that people were ever engaged? I can well imagine that in the early days of democracy in the West, or the early days of America, when the populations were much lower that being engaged was an easier thing. But the fact is, people are busy dealing with life. They don't necessarily like or care who does what as long as they have a relatively "good life".

Being informed or even well-informed takes a lot of effort. Effort that many are not willing to make OR do not have the time to make.
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rlbond86
You once again prove my point that Ron Paul supporters are single-issue voters.
Would it be an overly broad generalization to point out that Ron Paul opponents love to make overly broad generalizations about Ron Paul supporters?
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Old 11-18-2007, 07:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
I have to wonder if the news media is worse today than it has been in the past or if today's "worse" is just this era's particular flavour of media.

An informed citizenry is key. A free press is key.

Legally we in the West have a free press. I would argue that spin, bias, etc. have always been a factor and that any instances we see of it today are either a) due to there just being more of it (i.e. more choice of information = more chance for spin) or b) our citizenry is increasingly media savvy and therefore better able to spot the spin or counter-spin.

As for informed citizenry. I think we agree that people are disengaged. Do we know that people were ever engaged? I can well imagine that in the early days of democracy in the West, or the early days of America, when the populations were much lower that being engaged was an easier thing. But the fact is, people are busy dealing with life. They don't necessarily like or care who does what as long as they have a relatively "good life".

Being informed or even well-informed takes a lot of effort. Effort that many are not willing to make OR do not have the time to make.
Charlatan, there once was a time when the "most trusted man in America" was a television network nightly news caster:
Quote:
http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/histo...kite_1968.html
WALTER CRONKITE'S "WE ARE MIRED IN STALEMATE" BROADCAST, FEBRUARY 27, 1968



Tonight, back in more familiar surroundings in New York, we'd like to sum up our findings in Vietnam, an analysis that must be speculative, personal, subjective. Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities? I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did we. The referees of history may make it a draw. Another standoff may be coming in the big battles expected south of the Demilitarized Zone. Khesanh could well fall, with a terrible loss in American lives, prestige and morale, and this is a tragedy of our stubbornness there; but the bastion no longer is a key to the rest of the northern regions, and it is doubtful that the American forces can be defeated across the breadth of the DMZ with any substantial loss of ground. Another standoff. On the political front, past performance gives no confidence that the Vietnamese government can cope with its problems, now compounded by the attack on the cities. It may not fall, it may hold on, but it probably won't show the dynamic qualities demanded of this young nation. Another standoff.

We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that Hanoi's winter-spring offensive has been forced by the Communist realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer's almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster.

To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations. But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.

This is Walter Cronkite. Good night.



Source: Reporting Vietnam: Part One: American Journalism 1959-1969 (1998), pp. 581-582.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmast...ronkite_w.html
....President Lyndon Johnson listened to Cronkite's verdict with dismay and real sadness. As he famously remarked to an aide, "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost America."...<br>
<center><img src="http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/images/cronkite_w_bio4.jpg"><br>
LBJ watching Cronkite's Vietnam report.</center>

<h3>...and one month after Cronkite's February 27, 1968 broadcast:</h3>

http://www.millercenter.virginia.edu...peechDetail/28
March 31, 1968
President Lyndon Johnson
Remarks on Decision not to Seek Re-Election

<h3>Johnson re-states his offer to the North Vietnamese to begin talks for making peace</h3>, and he discusses the economic problems and solutions in the United States . After urging both Congress and Americans to end their divisions, <h3>the President announces his decision not to seek re-election</h3> so that he may focus on executing his presidential duties instead of partisan politics. ....
Imagine trying to fill Cronkite's shoes? Just as it was tough for Cronkite to fill Murrow's role, it was even a more difficult challenge when it was Dan Rather's turn. All the while, CBS evolved to put ratings, profits, and stock price before news gathering and reporting:
Quote:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/C/...lumbiabroa.htm
COLUMBIA BROADCASTING SYSTEM

U.S. Network

.....Unfortunately, as soon as some of them gained famed at CBS they were lured away by the far richer and more popular NBC.

This was not to be the case with news. Starved for programming Paley initially allowed his network to be used by the likes of the demagogic Father Charles Coughlin. But by 1931, Paley had terminated Coughlin's broadcasts, and under the aegis of former New York Times editor Edward Klauber and ex-United Press reporter Paul White, began building a solid news division.

CBS news did not come of age, however, until Klauber assigned the young Edward R. Murrow to London as director of European talks. On 13 March 1937 at the time of the Anschluss, Murrow teamed with former newspaper foreign correspondent William L. Shirer and a number of others to describe those events in what would become the forerunner of The CBS World News Roundup. Subsequently, during World War II, Murrow assembled a brilliant team of reporters, known collectively as "Murrow's Boys," including Eric Sevareid, Charles Collingwood, Howard K. Smith, Winston Burdett, Richard K. Hottelet, and Larry LeSueur.

In 1948, Paley turned the tables on NBC and signed some of its premier talent such as Jack Benny, Red Skelton, and Burns and Allen. He also stole a march on his rival in what they considered their undisputed realm--technology---when his CBS Research Center, under the direction of the brilliant inventor Peter Goldmark, developed the Long Playing phonograph recording technique and color television.

Even with this success Paley was still loathe to enter television broadcasting. But with prodding from Dr. Frank Stanton, whom he had appointed CBS president in 1946, and his growing awareness of how rapidly television was expanding, Paley began increasing CBS investment in television programming. Indeed with the talent that CBS had taken from NBC and homegrown artists and programming such as I Love Lucy, Ed Sullivan, Arthur Godfrey, and Gunsmoke, CBS dominated the audience rating system for almost twenty years.

The post-war years were hardly an undisturbed triumphal march for CBS. The network found itself dubbed the Communist Broadcasting System by conservatives during the McCarthy era. Nor did it distinguish itself by requiring loyalty oaths of its staff, and hiring a former FBI man as head of a loyalty clearance office. These actions were, however, redeemed to a large extent by Edward R. Murrow's 9 March 1954 See It Now broadcast investigating Senator McCarthy. Unfortunately, Murrow's penchant for controversy tarnished him in the eyes of many CBS executives and shortly thereafter, in 1961, he resigned to head the United States Information Agency.

More and more the news division, which thought of itself as the crown jewel at CBS, found itself subordinate to the entertainment values of the company, a trend highlighted at the end of the 1950s by the quiz show scandals. Indeed Paley, who had taken CBS public in 1937, now seemed to make profits his priority. Perhaps the clearest evidence of this development occurred when Fred Friendly, one of Murrow's closest associates and then CBS News division president, resigned after reruns of I Love Lucy were shown instead of the 1966 Senate hearings on the Vietnam War. ......

..... In violation of his own rule, Paley refused to retire. He did, however, force the 1973 retirement of his logical heir, Frank Stanton. He then installed and quickly forced the resignation of Arthur Taylor, John Backe, and Thomas Wyman as Presidents and chief executive officers of CBS, Inc. Anxiety about the succession at CBS began to threaten the network's independence. Declining ratings left the company vulnerable. The biggest threat came from a takeover bid by cable mogul Ted Turner. To defend itself against a takeover CBS turned to Loew's president, Lawrence Tisch, who soon owned a 25% share in the company and became president and CEO in 1986.

Within a year Tisch's cuts in personnel and budget, and his sale of assets such as the recording, magazines, and publishing divisions had alienated many. Dan Rather, who had succeeded the avuncular Walter Cronkite as the anchor on the CBS Evening News in 1981, wrote a scathing New York Times opinion editorial called "From Murrow to Mediocrity." By 1990, the year of Paley's death, The CBS Evening News, which had led in the ratings for eighteen years under Cronkite, and for a long period under Rather, fell to number three in the rankings.....


Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in678731.shtml
Below are some memorable events in his CBS career:

# 1962: Joins CBS News as chief of the network's Southwest bureau, in Dallas, where it was his job to cover 23 states, Mexico and Central America.

# Nov. 22, 1963: Reports live from the scene of President John F. Kennedy's assassination. Not only was CBS the first network on the scene, but Rather was also the first to report Kennedy had died.

# 1964: Promoted to White House correspondent for CBS News.

# 1965: Sent to Vietnam — at his own request — to cover the war.

# 1966: Returns to the U.S. and resumes his role as White House correspondent.

# 1974: His combative style is captured in a memorable moment while exchanging verbal jabs with President Nixon. First, Rather is booed and applauded when he stands to ask Nixon a question. Mr. Nixon turned the question around: "Are you running for something?" "No, sir, Mr. President," Rather shot back. "Are you?" This angers the White Houses. Several CBS affiliates asked for his resignation.

# 1974: Co-wrote a book about Watergate, "The Palace Guard," which became a best-seller. Another book, "The Camera Never Blinks," was published in 1977.

# 1980: Slips into Afghanistan in disguise following the Soviet invasion. The escapade earns him a nickname: "Gunga Dan."

# March 9, 1981: CBS Evening News anchor Walter Cronkite retires, and Rather takes over.

# 1986: Rather is attacked and badly beaten on Park Avenue by a deranged man later convicted of murdering an NBC stagehand. Rather’s woozy recollection of his attacker’s words, "What’s the frequency, Kenneth?," becomes the title of a song by rock band R.E.M.

# 1987: Rather walks off the CBS Evening News set in anger after the network decided to let the U.S. Open tennis tournament run overtime, cutting into the news broadcast. CBS was left with dead air for six minutes.

# Jan. 25, 1988: In an interview with then-Vice President George H.W. Bush, Rather presses the future president about his involvement in the Iran-Contra affair. A heated exchange follows, with Mr. Bush asking Rather whether he wished to be judged for the tennis walk-off.

# 1990: Is the first American journalist to interview Saddam Hussein after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

# March 31, 1999: Secures an exclusive first sit-down interview with President Clinton following the Lewinsky scandal and his impeachment by the House.

# 2001: Breaks into tears twice while discussing the 9/11 attacks on David Letterman’s late-night show a few days after the tragedy.

# Feb. 24, 2003: Gets the most sought-after interview in the world: an exclusive one-on-one with Saddam Hussein in Baghdad, the first time the Iraqi leader talks with an American journalist since 1991.

# Nov. 23, 2004: Rather announces he will step down March 9, 2005, as anchor of the CBS Evening News.
Quote:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/...s-rather_N.htm
Couric mocks Rather in Web video
By Jake Coyle, Associated Press
NEW YORK — Though battles between news anchors have historically been between rival networks, today's ripest feud is a purely CBS affair: Katie vs. Dan.

The rivalry took a humorous turn Thursday when a video was posted on the Web showing Katie Couric mocking Dan Rather while preparing to anchor a broadcast from Nashville, last week.

A video of Rather had surfaced last month, showing the former CBS Evening News anchor obsessing over his appearance before a remote broadcast — particularly questioning the wearing of an overcoat.

"I'm going to be like Dan Rather on YouTube," joked Couric in her video, alluding to Rather by fiddling with her coat. "Geez, don't you think he deserves a little payback?"

She then added, laughing: "This tart is ready to go!"

Rather, who left CBS News in March 2005 and now works for HDNet, had referred to his successor as "a nice person," but said "the mistake was to try to bring the Today show ethos to the Evening News, and to dumb it down, tart it up in hopes of attracting a younger audience.".....

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...romoid=googlep
Monday, Mar. 23, 1987
Hard Times at a "Can-Do" Network
By Richard Zoglin

The picket line outside the CBS Broadcast Center in Manhattan got an injection of star power last Monday morning. A band of network heavyweights, including Dan Rather, Ed Bradley and Diane Sawyer, showed up to support striking members of the Writers Guild, who walked out two weeks ago over issues of job security. The featured speaker, however, was a less well known correspondent named Ike Pappas, whose current celebrity derives from the fact that he has just lost his job. "I feel very poorly for the people who have to get up every morning and pretend to work for CBS News," he told the crowd. "It's not CBS News anymore."

The debate swirling through the corridors of CBS and the rest of the broadcast world last week was whether Pappas was right. In the most bruising round of layoffs yet at CBS's beleaguered news division, some 230 of 1,200 staffers had been let go, part of an effort to slash $30 million from the news operation's annual budget of nearly $300 million. Among the casualties: three bureaus (Warsaw, Bangkok and Seattle), 14 on-air correspondents (including Law Specialist Fred Graham and Economics Contributor Jane Bryant Quinn) and scores of other employees, ranging from low-paid support staff to veteran producers.

The "Slaughter on 57th Street," as some started calling it, raised an impassioned outcry. New CBS Chief Executive Officer Laurence Tisch roiled staff emotions further when he tried to shift responsibility for the layoffs to News President Howard Stringer. "I never said to Howard, 'We have to cut the budget at the news division,' " he told the New York Times. Stringer was aghast. After a two-hour meeting between the two, Tisch, who had suggested cutting the news budget by up to $60 million, issued a memo admitting that Stringer proposed the cuts only as an alternative to bringing in an outside consultant to do the job.

The cutbacks raised other hackles, both inside and outside the network. Word leaked out last week that a dozen of CBS's high-priced stars, including Rather and Sawyer, had offered to take substantial pay decreases if that would save jobs. But the company refused, arguing that positions had to be eliminated for long-term efficiency. Rather wrote an op-ed page article for the Times, headlined FROM MURROW TO MEDIOCRITY?, in which he condemned the layoffs and worried about a "product that may inevitably fall short of the quality and vision it once possessed." Two Democratic members of a House subcommittee on telecommunications, Dennis Eckart of Ohio and John Bryant of Texas, called for hearings on whether the cost paring at CBS and other networks is in the public
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/bu...%20Corporation
A Tortoise Savors the Lead

By GERALDINE FABRIKANT and BILL CARTER
Published: September 12, 2006

For Leslie Moonves, the chief executive of the CBS Corporation, it was a week to savor.

His decision to make Katie Couric the anchor of the “CBS Evening News” looked like a wildly successful bet, so far at least. On the entertainment side, CBS was set to go into the fall season as the most watched network in prime time.

Success with another, equally fickle audience — Wall Street — endeared him to his boss, Sumner M. Redstone, the 83-year-old mogul who controls both CBS and Viacom. To top it all off, Mr. Moonves watched last week as Mr. Redstone publicly dismissed his archrival, Tom Freston, the Viacom chief executive.

Mr. Moonves is too savvy a political player to show even a hint of schadenfreude over the ouster of Mr. Freston. But in an interview late last week, he allowed himself to gloat a little about CBS’s current status.

“I am like: ‘O.K., bring it on and let the games begin,’ ’’ said the tanned, trim 56-year-old executive. “We are extremely pleased about Katie,” he said, though he was quick to add: “Don’t declare victory. Wait a couple of weeks.”

In a business where “we are changing our tires on a car going 80 miles an hour,” as Mr. Moonves described the treacherous world of broadcast TV, there is little certainty.

Ms. Couric’s initial ratings swamped NBC and ABC, but they could fall back to earth once the novelty of watching the first solo woman news anchor wears thin. If the aging demographics of the “CBS Evening News” do not improve — <h3>the median viewer’s age is just over 60 years old — selling spots to advertisers could grow more difficult.....</h3>

....For several years Mr. Moonves had argued hard for splitting the former Viacom in two, which meant he would gain control over his own set of businesses. Immediately after the split, CBS raised its dividend, and it has increased the dividend twice since. “That makes the stock attractive to mutual funds that have an earnings target,” Richard Bilotti, a Morgan Stanley media analyst, said.

Fredric G. Reynolds, the chief financial officer of CBS, said the company debated whether to increase the dividend or repurchase shares, but decided against a repurchase because it could attract investors like “hedge funds who would come in for the share buyback and then leave.”

That quarterly dividend, now 20 cents a share, also helped reassure investors that CBS was not going to make expensive acquisitions that would dilute earnings, Mr. Bilotti said.

Mr. Moonves has developed one trait that he now shares with his chairman: a fascination with CBS’s stock price.

“It’s like with ratings,” Mr. Moonves said. “But there is a difference. It is overnights every 10 minutes. I look a few times a day. An analyst said you should look at it once a week. That is like saying: ‘Don’t look at your ratings.’ ”

<h3>Mr. Redstone, of course, watches the stock price like a hawk</h3>, and for now, Mr. Moonves’s position seems unassailable.

There are, of course, skeptics. .....

Last edited by host; 11-18-2007 at 08:03 PM..
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Old 11-18-2007, 08:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Charlatan, there once was a time when the "most trusted man in America" was a television network nightly news caster:
There was once a time when Rosanne Bar was the most watched show in America. Walter was a liberal who looked conservative and respectable with a good voice. If he were to start again today he would just be another liberal pundit. Congratulations, to him for helping fuel a retreat which cost a lot of good Vietnamese their lives and subjected them to totalitarianism. Without looking I'm sure he wants the same in Iraq. Hes predictable in his liberalism.

When any president trusts a news caster for his opinion, we got issues on many levels, and thats any president, past or future.
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Charlatan, there once was a time when the "most trusted man in America" was a television network nightly news caster:

Imagine trying to fill Cronkite's shoes? Just as it was tough for Cronkite to fill Murrow's role, it was even a more difficult challenge when it was Dan Rather's turn. All the while, CBS evolved to put ratings, profits, and stock price before news gathering and reporting:
Very clever marketing.

Was Cronkite good at what he did? Yes. Was Murrow good at what he did? Yes.

I don't know that just because the marketing folks at CBS tell me that someone is "the most trusted man in America" I should believe them. I think this goes right back to what I was saying about our public becoming increasingly media literate. In the past things could be take much more at face value. Today, viewers are more likely to ask questions.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
There was once a time when Rosanne Bar was the most watched show in America. Walter was a liberal who looked conservative and respectable with a good voice. If he were to start again today he would just be another liberal pundit. <h3>Congratulations, to him for helping fuel a retreat which cost a lot of good Vietnamese their lives and subjected them to totalitarianism.</h3> Without looking I'm sure he wants the same in Iraq. Hes predictable in his liberalism.

When any president trusts a news caster for his opinion, we got issues on many levels, and thats any president, past or future.
Ustwo, "the record"...I am exposing you to the opinions of the US Secretary of Defense from the earliest, "post US advisors only", period of US military involvement in Vietnam, to past the time of Cronkite's Feb. 27, 1968 opinion dominated telecast, and to the US military commander, Gen. Westmoreland's opinion, and to the opinion of Daniel Ellsberg. Notice that Macnamara shared the opinion in Ellsberg's circa 1967 Pentagon Papers, as early as in 1965. You can't miss it, it's displayed in the boldest type....<h3>does not match your opinion about Cronkite, or about the Vietnam war.</h3>

I don't think you appreciate how your POV of "liberal influence" on the outcome of the Vietnam war affects your overall perception of recent American history and of today's political dynamic.

Would you mind sharing sources with us that have shaped your "liberals did it" opinion of the outcome of US military involvement in Vietnam? It would help if you have sources of similar stature and responsibility for what went on there, as Macnamara and Westmoreland offer.
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...iews/mcnamara/
<i>Robert McNamara was Secretary of Defense during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. He was a key architect of early U.S. policy in Vietnam and supported the U.S. military involvement. But as the war escalated yet failed to bring results, and as resistance to the war mounted at home, McNamara began to push for a negotiated solution. In 1968, after opposing further bombing of North Vietnam, he lost influence in the Johnson administration and left to become president of the World Bank. He was interviewed for this episode of COLD WAR in June 1996.</i>

On the 1963 coup in Saigon:

I believe the U.S. should not have given support to a coup. I think, in hindsight, most would agree with that conclusion. It was not a universal conclusion at the time, by any means.

I think one of the things it showed was that we didn't know either our opponents (in this case the North Vietnamese) or even our allies (in this case the South Vietnamese). I don't think we knew the society; I don't think we knew the leaders; I don't think we knew who was likely to follow [deposed South Vietnamese President] Diem. This was one reason that those who opposed the coup among Kennedy's advisers, one reason they opposed it. They couldn't get any indication of who was likely to follow, or whether the regime would be stable. And of course, what ultimately happened was, the regimes that followed Diem were not stable. It was like a revolving door: prime ministers were going in and out every few months or few weeks, over a period of time. But we as leaders, we as a society, did not properly understand, fully understand, as I suggest, either our allies or our opponents. ...

.... Had Diem lived, I'm inclined to think he would neither have requested nor accepted the introduction of large numbers of U.S. combat forces. He would not have wished to put his nation in a sense under the control of a foreign power, even a friendly foreign power. I think the war would have taken a totally different course. Now that is only speculation, but I think it's an important point, because if I'm correct, it shows we didn't understand even our allies, much less our opponents. And this is one of the major lessons of the conflict. ....

On LBJ and Vietnam:

...We were deeply disturbed, deeply disturbed [by the unstable South Vietnamese government]. And the president, as a politician, was determined to do everything he possibly could to stabilize that government politically. He in effect sent me over there at one time, on one visit with Max Taylor, the Chairman of Joint Chiefs. He said, "I want to see you across that country on TV every day, supporting the President of Vietnam. We have got to stabilize that government." But there are limitations to what external military force can do. <h3>External military force cannot reconstruct a failed state, and Vietnam, during much of that period, was a failed state politically. We didn't recognise it as such.</h3> ... But he was determined to do everything within his power -- economic power, political power, military power -- to stabilize that nation politically. It proved impossible. ....

... Throughout the seven years I was in the Defense Department on Vietnam, the nation was divided. The majority of the people, the press and the Congress, throughout the seven years, up until early 1968, were in favor of preventing the fall of Vietnam, because they believed in the domino theory. And they were prepared to send U.S. troops and carry on U.S. combat operations in Vietnam to prevent that loss. But there was a growing minority, and had the issue actually been debated, it would have torn the Congress apart. And that was one of the reasons why the hawks and doves agreed it shouldn't be debated. ...

On the decision to introduce ground troops in Vietnam:

....The events between January and July [1965] were such that the North Vietnamese were putting additional pressure on South Vietnam. South Vietnam was unable to respond effectively, and it became more and more clear that President Johnson was going to have to choose between losing South Vietnam or trying to save it by introducing U.S. military force and taking over a major part of the combat mission. He chose, rather than lose it, to introduce U.S. combat forces and take over the combat mission....

...McGeorge Bundy and I sent [a memo] to the President, and we said in effect: "Mr President, we're following a course that cannot succeed. We cannot continue solely in providing training and logistical support. We've got to go beyond that, or we have to get out. And we're not certain which of these two alternatives should be pursued. Each should be debated. We're inclined to think we've got to get further in." Unfortunately, the two alternatives were not fully debated, and we slid into further intervention, which ultimately led to 500,000 troops over a period of two or three years. ...

...On U.S. strategy in Vietnam:

...Some of us questioned at the beginning whether [massive bombing] would ever achieve the objective. ... Some believed that the bombing ... would stop, in a sense, the ability of the North to resupply the South. Others believed bombing would not stop that. The record of my testimony before the Congress is clear on that; many of us believed it would be impossible, by bombing, to stop the flow of the small quantity of supplies needed in the South to support the Viet Cong. And I think the record shows the bombing didn't prevent that flow of supplies. Secondly, there were those who believed that the bombing would break the will of the North. Others believed it wouldn't. And it didn't. ...

.....On the war in general:

<h3>This was much more a civil war than a war of aggression</h3>. I'm not arguing that there wasn't an element of aggression in it; I'm not arguing that the Chinese and the Soviets might not have tried to use South Vietnam as a launching pad to knock over the dominoes of Malaysia and Thailand and Indonesia and whatever. But what I am arguing is that the conflict within South Vietnam itself had all of the characteristics of a civil war, and we didn't look upon it as largely a civil war, and we weren't measuring our progress, as one would have in what was largely a civil war. ...

It is said that the military operated with one hand tied behind their backs. To the extent that that refers to a restriction on land invasion by U.S. forces on North Vietnam, that's true. <h3>But today, General Westmoreland, who was the commander in Vietnam at the time, says that while at the time he felt he was constrained, he now understands that that was an effort by the president to prevent the U.S. coming into open military conflict with China and the Soviet Union. And Westmoreland says, "Thank God we avoided that. That was a correct policy at the time."</h3> Could more military pressure have been applied, in the sense of more bombing of the North? In one sense, no. We dropped two or three times as much bombs in North and South Vietnam as were dropped by all Allied Forces throughout World War II against all enemies. It was a tremendous air effort. But there are certain things bombing can't accomplish. They can't break the will of people under certain circumstances. They didn't break the will of the North Vietnamese. And it cannot stop the movement of the small quantities of supplies that were necessary to support the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese forces in the South. They didn't, and it couldn't; and no additional amount of money [or] bombing could have. ...

<h2>As early as December 1965, I reported to the President that I believed there was no more than a one-in-three chance -- at best a one-in-two chance -- that we could achieve our political objectives, i.e. avoiding the loss of South Vietnam, by military means.</h2> And I strongly urged, therefore, [that] we increased our efforts on the political track, that we tried to move to negotiations with the North, to avoid the fall of the dominoes; and that, to stimulate a move toward negotiation, we stop the bombing. This was a very controversial move at the time. And we eventually did: we stopped for a month, in December 1965. It was one of about seven different attempts to move to negotiations, to stop the war to negotiate a solution that would yield a satisfactory outcome for the West, which was simply to avoid the loss of all Southeast Asia.

Those efforts were unsuccessful. I don't know why. I have proposed to Hanoi that ... we engage in examining what I think were missed opportunities for each of us, for them and us, to have avoided the war or to have terminated it earlier, with less loss of life, without any adverse effects on the geopolitical situations of either one of us. I very much hope those discussions will take place. We have much to learn from them that can be applied to the world of today and tomorrow. How to avoid these conflicts is something the human race has to learn. This century will go down as the bloodiest century in all of human history. We'll have lost 160 million people, killed by conflict. Is that what we want in the 21st century? I don't think so. If we want to avoid it, we have to learn from our mistakes in this century. Vietnam was one of those.
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war.../westmoreland/
<i>As commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam from 1964 to 1968, Gen. William Westmoreland oversaw the introduction of ground troops in Vietnam in 1965 and the subsequent buildup of U.S. forces there. He was a key architect of the U.S. military strategy and a consistent advocate for a greater commitment from Washington. In 1968, after asking for more ground troops in response to the Tet Offensive, President Johnson recalled him to Washington to become U.S. Army chief of staff. After support for the war collapsed in Washington, he retired in 1972. He was interviewed for the COLD WAR series in June 1996.</i>

On the introduction of U.S. ground troops in Vietnam in 1965:

....The political structure of South Vietnam was rather shaky at the time, because nobody knew from day to day who was running the country. ... Our mission at that time was to try to bolster the Vietnamese government, the morale of which was in disarray. We were dealing in a geographical area where we'd had very little experience in the past. We were dealing with a political-military situation. It was really quite complex. So what I'm really saying is, as we moved in to help the Vietnamese defend their country and confront the Viet Cong (the Vietnamese communists, controlled from Hanoi), we were in the process of getting acquainted with the terrain, the Vietnamese political apparatus and the Vietnamese army. And it was quite an interesting but challenging time. ...

<h3>I would say the main problem was [with] the Vietnamese society. It didn't seem to be a cohesive operation.</h3> There were factions that were fighting within the South Vietnamese society. ... And it became very clear that Hanoi was in effect strategically running the [Viet Cong] operation. ... This was a type of war that we'd had no experience with before and we were on the learning curve. .....

On fighting a limited war:

Well, that was a major problem. At the outset, the president made the statement that he would not geographically broaden the war, <h3>and that meant that military actions were confined to the territory of South Vietnam.</h3> The enemy was not operating under such restraints, and therefore over the years the border area of Cambodia and Laos were used freely by the enemy.....

....We were winning on the battlefield, but whether we were winning strategically is another matter. But the strategy came from Hanoi and there was little that we could do about it. And the people in Washington -- the Secretary of Defense and [the people in] the White House -- understood [that] from a military standpoint, [our policies involved] a restraint that was inevitably going to prolong the war. I mean, I think this was well-understood, but nevertheless, it was [our] policy, based on the fact that we were not the aggressors. We were not going to be party to enlarging the war. ....

On the Tet Offensive:

.... At that time, I didn't want the enemy to know that I knew what was going to happen. I did know. I made a mistake in not making that known to the American public, because they were caught by surprise and that was a very much of a negative factor.

On the impact of television journalism on the war:

Well, it's the first war that we've ever fought on the television screen and it was the first war that our country ever fought where the media had full reign, [where] they had no restraint. We provided no restraint over the media. I mean, that was a policy by the president, and the enemy exploited it. It was something that plagued me from the very beginning. On the other hand, when I knew the Tet Offensive was coming, I should have made a public statement and maybe gone in front of the TV cameras and made known to the American people that a major offensive action was to take place. I didn't do that because I didn't want the enemy to know that I had access to his plans. ... And in retrospect -- and I've made this statement many times -- that was bad judgment on my part.

On the war in general:

We were succeeding. I mean, when you looked at specifics, this became a war of attrition, [and] we were winning the war of attrition. The price that the enemy was prone to pay greatly exceeded our expectations. ...

I think one has to understand what our objective was. The objective in Washington was to raise the cost of the war from the standpoint of the enemy, to the point that he would come to some negotiated settlement. The attitude of the enemy was not comparable to what our attitude would have been under the circumstances. He was ready, willing and able to pay a far greater price than I would say we Caucasians would.
Quote:
http://archive.salon.com/news/featur...erg/index.html
April 28, 2000 | WASHINGTON -- Daniel Ellsberg is arguably the greatest whistle-blower in American history.

....In 1971, Ellsberg, who had worked as an analyst under Secretary Robert McNamara at the Department of Defense, went public with the Pentagon Papers, a 7,000-page study of America's 30-year involvement in Indochina that led to the Vietnam War. The report, commissioned by the DOD,<h3> revealed government deception, miscalculation and bureaucratic arrogance. Among other things, it revealed that President Lyndon Johnson had been committing infantry to Vietnam while telling the nation that he had no long-range plans for the war. Most damning was the overall impression it gave that the U.S. government did not believe it was possible to win the war.</h3>

By giving the documents to Times correspondent Neil Sheehan, Ellsberg risked spending 115 years in the slammer. Indeed, he would later be charged with espionage, theft and conspiracy. The charges were eventually dropped by a federal judge, who wrote that a pattern of "gross government misconduct" -- including a break-in at Ellsberg's former psychiatrist's office that was linked to the White House -- was so appalling that the administration's retaliatory actions "offend the sense of justice."

The Nixon Justice Department responded quickly and furiously to the Times' publication of the classified documents on June 13, 1971, and just after the third installment was published, it secured a restraining order preventing further installments from being printed. The move surprised few, given the critical view the papers took of the war. .....

<h3>Looking back, what role do you think releasing the Pentagon Papers played in bringing an end to the Vietnam War?</h3>

It panicked Richard Nixon into criminal actions to silence me from revealing information about his secret Vietnam policy. Those criminal actions, when they were discovered in 1973, played a major role in his impeachment proceedings, which led to his resignation. I believe he intended to renew the bombing of North Vietnam in '73 or '74, so I think [the Pentagon Papers] did play a role in shortening our bombing of Vietnam and shortening the war by a few years.

Had he not reacted that way, the effect would not have been great because -- although the release of the papers did have an immediate and very large effect on public attitudes toward the war and their desire to see it end -- it did not directly cause Nixon to give up his hopes of winning or postponing a defeat indefinitely.

The actions that he took to keep me from revealing his secret threats of escalation were known to the people who were caught in the Watergate scandal. And these acts were the cancer on the presidency that led to his downfall.

Last edited by host; 11-18-2007 at 11:18 PM..
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:11 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
There was once a time when Rosanne Bar was the most watched show in America. Walter was a liberal who looked conservative and respectable with a good voice. If he were to start again today he would just be another liberal pundit. Congratulations, to him for helping fuel a retreat which cost a lot of good Vietnamese their lives and subjected them to totalitarianism. Without looking I'm sure he wants the same in Iraq. Hes predictable in his liberalism.

When any president trusts a news caster for his opinion, we got issues on many levels, and thats any president, past or future.
There is not a sentence you posted here that would stand up to scrutiny, but of course you refuse to provide any links that support your claims, being too busy or whatever.

Ustwo, just once back up your bull with facts. Not even McNamera agrees with the nonsense you posted here.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:04 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I don't see how you can say that Ustwo's post doesn't stand up to scrutiny? What support should an opinion require?

Roaeanne was the most watched woman in TV at one time.
Cronkite was at his peak in a radically different time. He was on the air when there were really only three souces of television newsmedia and audiences were in the tens of millions. In today's mediascape he would be just another voice among many and he would be under a lot more scrutiny as these many voices have given us more and varied points of view.

As for Vietnam. I think it's a very safe thing to say that America left Vietnam to totalitarian rule whether or not more or less lives were saved by the US leaving when they did is open for debate. I don't think it's all that cut and dry.

The real question on Vietnam (and Iraq) has to do with why war was needed in the first place and again, this is still a matter of opinion and hindsight. Make no mistake, lessons were learned from Vietnam, they just might not be the lesson you think.

Can you suggest what support Ustwo should supply to support his opinions?
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:15 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I don't see how you can say that Ustwo's post doesn't stand up to scrutiny? What support should an opinion require?

Roaeanne was the most watched woman in TV at one time.
Cronkite was at his peak in a radically different time. He was on the air when there were really only three souces of television newsmedia and audiences were in the tens of millions. In today's mediascape he would be just another voice among many and he would be under a lot more scrutiny as these many voices have given us more and varied points of view.

As for Vietnam. I think it's a very safe thing to say that America left Vietnam to totalitarian rule whether or not more or less lives were saved by the US leaving when they did is open for debate. I don't think it's all that cut and dry.

The real question on Vietnam (and Iraq) has to do with why war was needed in the first place and again, this is still a matter of opinion and hindsight. Make no mistake, lessons were learned from Vietnam, they just might not be the lesson you think.

Can you suggest what support Ustwo should supply to support his opinions?
C'mon Charlatan, it's obvious that Elphaba was reacting to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
....Congratulations, to him for helping fuel a retreat....
14 months ago, I presented my usual...a thoroughly supported argument that made the case that it was not "liberals" who were responsible for the decision to withdraw the US military from Vietnam, or for the effectiveness of it's strategy:
<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108864">Vietnam:Reagan's "Noble War", The Left forced the US to fight with one hand tied,Or? </a>

Here is Ustwo's entire response to my argument and it's supporting articles/opinions, in that thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
The nobel goal in Vietnam was to save people from the 'joy' of communism.

It failed with tragic results after the US pull out.

Quote:
Reagan made a speech to the American Legion convention, pandering for the military vote.
A poll conducted late last year by the Military Times found that 57 percent of those surveyed consider themselves Republican, while 13 percent identified with the Democrats. Among the officer corps the numbers were different. Nearly 66 percent of officers considered themselves Republican compared with 9 percent Democratic. Nearly 30 percent of those surveyed by the Military Times declined to answer the questions or said they were independent.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5964655/

Republicans don't need to pander to get the military vote, this isn't a draft army, these are volunteers, you won't find many Democrats. Its even worse for the democrats if you look at the national guard and the reserves.

Don't forget it was the Democrats who did their best to get military votes thrown out in 2000, they didn't do that because the military votes Democrat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
host if there were not odd rules of conduct.....why did we not invade North Vietnam in the first place? The answer is obvious, but shows a difference between Iraq and Vietnam right there.
....and now, he comes back with the same ole shit. It's wearing, boring, propagandist, and Elphaba called him on it. Cronkite was a journalist, not an anti war movement leader. President Johnson knew that. Cronkite played no part in any US "retreat". It wasz five full years after Cronkite's Feb. 27, 1968 telecast, that the US graound forces ceased an active "on the ground" role in Vietnam, in Jan. 1973. US combat air support continued even after that.

WWII was fought and wrapped up in 45 months...Dec., 1941, to Aug., 1945

Ustwo refuses to accept that the US government lied to the American people about it's own conclusion of prospects for a military solution in Vietnam, and he refuses to debate it, but he keeps coming back, posting shit like this, all the same.

Last edited by host; 11-20-2007 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:44 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
....and now, he comes back with the same ole shit. It's wearing, boring, propagandist,
Oh pot how I have missed thee with your negro sheen.
Of pristine language never quite obscene.
With posts so deep and with cites
Who contain quite a pungent bite
Truth they show me for such a sham
They never contain needless spam
And while I sit here in my chair
Agents of shadow scuttle everywhere
While I pacify the simple folk
Who shall never be shaken from our yolk.
So you can rant and you can rave
Shadow men like me shall never cave
But when the revolution draws near
Black helicopter swiftly shall appear
And our plan shall be fulfilled
A flat tax and people who pay their bills
Now this kettles plan is laid bare
Normal men need not despair

TFP should be fun
Not a bully pulpit for anyone
So I leave you with this rhyme
Not set in any time
You have your views, I have mine
I hope you feel good, I feel fine.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:02 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Ustwo....you're a better poet that policy analyst!

But thats just my opinion. To blame the media for what the principal architect of the Vietnam war (McNamara) admitted was a failed policy from the start, is certainly a stretch, to say the least.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I wonder if multiple threadjacks and thinly veiled mockery could also be considered "spam?"
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:53 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
But thats just my opinion. To blame the media for what the principal architect of the Vietnam war (McNamara) admitted was a failed policy from the start, is certainly a stretch, to say the least.
I did not place sole blame for the failure on Vietnam on the press, they played their part, but you are correct in that it was a poor policy to start with.

When the left does the same to Iraq, it won't be the result of any one man, but the culmination of many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
I wonder if multiple threadjacks and thinly veiled mockery could also be considered "spam?"
You could use some fun in your life I think.

Some day I'll figure out how left brained people seem to relax and have more fun than right brained people. Really this truly baffles me as based on how they self describe I figure it should be the other way.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
When the left does the same to Iraq, it won't be the result of any one man, but the culmination of many.
You see this is where you fall off for me. You are correct in the resulting failure of Iraq will not be the fault of just one person. However, that fault lies in the absence of a sound plan for solving the issue of Iraq in the first place.

The invasion should never have occurred in the manner in which it did. The Bush administration entered Iraq without a Gulf War 1 coalition. There was arguably a good reason to take out Saddam and doing this was going to be easy. It was what comes after Saddam that they need support to pull off.

Regardless of the reasons for going in (anything from oil to building a stable democracy in the middle east) Iraq has been one giant fuck up of monumental proportion whether or not the so-called left decides to pull out or not.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:19 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I did not place sole blame for the failure on Vietnam on the press, they played their part, but you are correct in that it was a poor policy to start with.

When the left does the same to Iraq, it won't be the result of any one man, but the culmination of many.
So you're blaming the liberal press in part for doing their job of reporting on the day-to-day cost of american lives in vietnam in pursuit of what you agree was a failed policy. What would you have preferred the press to do? How many more names would you have liked to see on the Wall in pursuit of a policy that had little likelihood of success?

The same applies to press coverage in Iraq. Would you prefer the press to ignore the virtual ethnic cleansing in many neighborhoods in Baghdad? The fleeing of millions of the Iraqi middle class to avoid the sectarian violence? The killing of civiilans by US troops and private security forces? The lack of basic resources like water and electricity for much of the country? The corruption of the new Iraqi government? The role of the Shiite militias in that government? The total lack of any progress in political reconciliation?

Should the role of the press in war time be restricted to supporting the policy of its government....right or wrong?
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
You see this is where you fall off for me. You are correct in the resulting failure of Iraq will not be the fault of just one person. However, that fault lies in the absence of a sound plan for solving the issue of Iraq in the first place.
What would be a sound plan? I'd say the mistake was going in as liberators rather than conqueror's but hindsight and all.

Quote:
The invasion should never have occurred in the manner in which it did. The Bush administration entered Iraq without a Gulf War 1 coalition. There was arguably a good reason to take out Saddam and doing this was going to be easy. It was what comes after Saddam that they need support to pull off.
It would have been great to have more help, but they were too busy writing contracts with Saddam.

Quote:
Regardless of the reasons for going in (anything from oil to building a stable democracy in the middle east) Iraq has been one giant fuck up of monumental proportion whether or not the so-called left decides to pull out or not..
How many nations have been invaded and fundamentally transformed without issue and so LITTLE loss of life. I think you fail to see the big picture here in that sure there have been a LOT of mistakes in Iraq, but its not as colossal a fuck up as you imply here. It can be saved and won, in fact I expect as soon as a democrat gets elected president we will start to see 'good things' stories from Iraq. New schools, new hope, blah blah. Really the way to make this a monumental fuck up is to throw up our hands and 'honorable redeploy' like so many on this board think is a good idea.

We've got a nation of 27 million people under our direct and indirect control, we need to make good on our promises. Not keeping them would be a true monumental fuck up.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:42 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
.... but its not as colossal a fuck up as you imply here. It can be saved and won, in fact I expect as soon as a democrat gets elected president we will start to see 'good things' stories from Iraq. New schools, new hope, blah blah. Really the way to make this a monumental fuck up is to throw up our hands and 'honorable redeploy' like so many on this board think is a good idea.

We've got a nation of 27 million people under our direct and indirect control, we need to make good on our promises. Not keeping them would be a true monumental fuck up.
Not a colossal fuck up? Only if you ignore the ethnic cleansing, the 2+ million refugees, the killing of tens of thousands in sectarian violence as well as the killing of civilians by US troops and private security forces, the rising disease among children as a result of lack of basic resources, the corruption of the new Iraqi government, the influence of the extremist Shiite militias in the new Iraqi police and military ...oh wait, you did ignore all that.

How can it be saved and won by a continued US occupation? (leaving aside the bullshit blah blah about what liberals would say about it if a democrat wins the WH). We made good on our promise....we got rid of Saddam.. Now its up to the Iraqis and its hard to be optimistic.

How does our further presence bring the Iraqi government closer to political reconciliation? How much progress have they made in the last year on the 18 political/economic benchmarks?
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:44 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
You could use some fun in your life I think.

Some day I'll figure out how left brained people seem to relax and have more fun than right brained people. Really this truly baffles me as based on how they self describe I figure it should be the other way.
Another threadjack and more mockery? You have an odd sense of what is "fun" that I don't share.
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