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Illegal Immigration
Illegal immigration...
There are at least 12 million people in the United States who are not supposed to be here. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what's to be done about this. While I feel that illegal immigrants are bad for our society, we can't go on a witch hunt and throw them out. Moreover, any politicians who suggest a hard stance on illegal immigration face political suicide in the face of the growing Latino vote. I believe this is true because of the Latino emphasis on family. It seems to me, unfortunately, that the only realistic way to fix this problem is blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants and their families. I think that Latinos would accept a compromise -- amnesty and legal alien status to illegals and their immediate families, in exchange for a wall, and much tougher laws against illegals. Once the illegals were made legal aliens, they would pay an extra tax to pay for their previous time spent as an illegal and the ability to be with their families; of course, they would be getting a pay raise anyway since now they couldn't be paid under minimum wage. This is the only way I see that will work. These 12 million aren't leaving, and we don't have the resources to hunt them down if we wanted to. At least if we did this, yeah, maybe there would be 20 million people instead of 12 million, but illegal immigration would effectively stop after that. We would have passed extremely strict legislation forbidding their employment with extremely harsh penalties and a big wall, all with the Latino approval. Does anyone else have opinions on the topic? Ideas that legislators would sign on to? Ideas that Latinos would agree to? |
To some on here, they are not illegal, they are just undocumented. There is no such thing as an illegal alien and breaking the law to enter our country is a good thing because it's a bad law. [/sarcasm]
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Immigration is a good thing and we need more of it. There is a lot of untapped talent in this world, and this country can give that talent more opportunities to flower than most other countries can.
I'm not thrilled that so much of our immigration is from one place and not thrilled that it's illegal, either. We do need to get better control of our borders. But we certainly do need immigrants; we benefit from their energy and their leavening of the culture. If it was up to me, I'd want immigration from diverse sources (in practice, this would mean, in all likelihood, more Asians and Africans, and fewer Mexicans), with a much better system to welcome people without degrading them. The current system is a disgrace. It's not that I have anything against Mexicans, it's just that they seem to have an unfair advantage as against other potential immigrants because of their proximity. I see no reason we should necessarily want more immigrants from Mexico than from, say, Guatemala or Nepal or Indonesia or Benin. It's more that the Mexicans have luck of the draw because of the accident of geography, and that's a lousy way to set immigration policy. As for the 12 million here illegally - I'd offer a path to normalization, so long as it's not penalty-free. People who have the gumption to seek out opportunity are the kind of people I like to have here, but I don't want to encourage mass lawbreaking, so there has to be some downside to having broken the law and come in illegally. Those who have gone through the process to immigrate legally shouldn't be made to feel like chumps by the country just welcoming in those who didn't follow the rules. Going forward, more LEGAL immigration, get rid of illegal. And more immigration from more places. |
Well, most of y'all know that I have way too much to say on the subject... so I'm going to refrain from participating, for once. However, I do want to point out a few very interesting paragraphs from a piece on illegal immigration (and the notion of "illegality" in American, in general) in Slate. I would be glad to hear people's feedback on this, if you have time to read it...
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christ...this again.
undocumented workers. that the category under discussion. it has little if anything to do with "illegal immigration" it becomes about "illegal immigration" when reverse migration and other such information is left out of what passes for a discussion. but hey---"illegal immigration" works to distract people...it allows for fantasies about being-invaded and snippiness about the reorganization of contemporary capitalism to be directed not at firms, not at capital, but rather at folk who already have restricted rights, who already are exploited, who are hired by firms to perform functions because they'll work cheap and cant easily organize into labor unions. but because in the degenerate political context we continue to endure, wherein neo-liberal horseshit is still confused with a viable socio-economic ideology, capital is understood as a priori good and firms "rational actors" in some mythical "private sphere" of the economy, it follows that folk would not think much about firms who hire undocumented workers, preferring instead to froth on and on about their fictional duplicate in the "illegal immigrant" a reactionary red herring. that's all this "issue" is. |
It really isn't all that big of a deal to me.
A few points is how its illegal. How the mexican government is pushing it as apart of public policy and it accounts for way to much of their GDP. I don't like that illegals are draining American tax payer money i.e. public schooling, health care, then obvious issues like border enforcement and prosecution. On the other they are doing horse shit jobs at horse shit wages, anyone who says they are taking American jobs are idiots, unless you like working at Mcdonalds or scrubing floors for a living. On that India and the like would be a real problem for the American work force. Also in so far as the Native Americans are concerned... Venni vetti vicci. |
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The answer is, of course, ridiculously simple.
1.) Build "The Wall". 2.) Line all the "illegals" up against it, and shoot 'em. 3.) Auction their stuff, and profit. Disclaimer for the noobies: I am, of course just kidding. |
First secure the boarders (both of them not just mexico). Then offer a path to citizenship to illegals who are here. This path should involve showing that they are 1) not a criminal (take finger prints, look at records, etc), 2) involve paying fines that are income based (that way not only those with money can go down this path), 3) that they can contribute to society by being sponsored by an employer. There would have to be provisions in this plan which would extend to people who are dependent on those described in the first 3 points, ie children, parents, disabled, etc.
Really we need to figure out where the problems lie. And it is my feeling that it doesn't lie in just 1 spot. Our immigration policy is to strict thus good immigrants can't get here and our border security is non-existent. What won't help is fear mongering on illegals, making them felons, or throwing them in jail. They are here because they are trying to live the American dream. Most of these people are simply want what our forefathers wanted when they moved here "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" If we provide a path for them to do this legally many of them will take this path and those that don't we can come down on harder, if we had better security then it would be much harder for them to get here illegally. The key is to make this path in such a way that it is fair to everyone. |
i'd rather get rid of this guy than mexicans down the street hanging drywall anyday:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29.../294811361.jpg that said, i'd be careful about saying that the 'latino' vote will get up in arms about closing down the mexican border. i know several people from other latin/central/south american countries that would love the junk out of that. i will also say that our current situation did not arise accidentally; this way our shit work gets done and we don't even really have to think about it. it's like a whole different group...or class...or, i don't know...caste can do it for us!!! |
Most people focus on conditions in the U.S. driving illegal immigration, but ignore external causes. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are here because the economy in their home country is in the shitter. Aid packages that include low-interest loans for starting small businesses have already had success in several countries, including Mexico. Unfortunately, these are poorly funded and really need government assistance to have and effect at the national level. Combining these loans with education and training in how to set up a business, along with changing local laws and reducing corruption to encourage entrepreneurship can drastically improve conditions in poor countries. This also has the advantage of being a permaent solution, and as such will probably cost far less than any "solution" that focuses mainly on acting within American borders.
If you remove the source of the problem, the problem itself will probably go away on its own. |
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It would be very unfair to those who abide by our laws to grant amnesty or allow illegals to get in front of the line for citizenship. |
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This country will be destroyed the day we begin acting like the self-destructive policies of Great Britain and France in regards to immigration. The nation was built on immigration, and it continues to be the best and worst of America.
TBH I like the Mexicans better than the natives most days. And for all the throwing around of the word illegal - do you have any idea how many things you do on a daily basis that are illegal? Come on now. Nobody points their finger at you and says jesus h christ malcolm your tail light is out, you're a goddamn illegal. Holy Mother of God, you just went 5 over the speed limit and changed lanes during passage through an intersection, you're a goddamn illegal. I know for a fact that my direct ancestors who landed in Massachusetts during the 1600s had no papers, no right to come here, I'm not about to turn around and deny honest people the means to support their families. They're just looking for work, they don't want a free ride any more than you do. If it hadn't been for our economic policies (here's to you, Milton Friedman) ravaging the finest Latin American countries financially, repeatedly over the past 50 years they might not even be coming up here for work. |
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I was talking with a Mexican friend of mine (she's an associate professor at a large American research university) the other day, and she told me that when she went to a yoga class last week, she was parking her car and nearly got side-swiped by some woman gunning through the parking lot. My friend parked her car, got out, and the woman had parked her car directly behind my friend, rolled down the window, and said, "I should call the cops on you, you look like an illegal." :oogle: My friend said, "Excuse me, what does an "illegal" look like?" The woman replies, "You." My friend called her a racist bitch and walked off to the yoga studio, lol. The woman circled the yoga studio four times, waiting for my friend to emerge (she was watching from the window), but she never did. The whole event shook her up for several days. WOW. And this was in Texas, btw. Now, you tell ME who the bigger asshole is, eh? :rolleyes: |
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Whatever the solution is, I don't want to live behind a wall any more than I want to live in a society that condones torture. These things say more about our national character than our protestations of liberty, democracy, and even our media. We were built on better ideals than that, and we inherited better ideals than that. I'd like to think that we can preserve and even enhance those ideals.
There has to be a way to live that doesn't involve compromises of basic moral character. |
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anyone who doesnt speak Iriquois is not supposed to be there.
These things just are beyond my capacity to comment on really. But it is a common trait amongst immigrants (such as all european white Americans) - to want to shut the gate as soon as they are inside and secure. |
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I'll trade you :thumbsup: |
the category of "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is a mode of structuring racism, yes. whether it is in itself racist is not obvious---that it can blur into racism in for many people is also obvious, but they add the racism (and so are responsible for it)--what the categories seem to me mostly to be about though is the same kind of odious nonsense that the notion of "terrorist" is about--enabling a distinction us/them inside/outside to be drawn.
so metaphorically, it is already about putting up gates around the community "we" inhabit. that the category is based on fundamentally false premises seems not to disturb folk who find it reassuring to imagine themselves walling themselves off from "contamination" by the big scary bad Other. that the stats which seem to support such nonsense are self-evidently partial seems also not to bother people. maybe it's too much work to think about it, and much easier to simply combine "illegal alien" with the illusion that the united states is so fabulous that everyone on earth wants to come in and stay in, and will set up shop on your lawn unless you ward them off with one of your many many guns. the fact that this is nothing more than a narcisstic circle jerk is not fun. being paranoid is fun. its the amurican way these days. |
Immigrant work generates positive national income because their work is more productive (same work for less pay). Because of their lack of training due to poor economies and education in their home countries so they take the shitty jobs. How many white people do you suppose pick grapes in the Visalia area of California? You can find good work for low pay in agriculture, landscaping, construction, and restaurants because of them.
Honestly? I hope the anti-immigrant people succeed and have to pay $7 for an apple and $30 for a bag of raisins just so they understand how they benefited from the work of migrants. |
Where does the illegal's don't pay taxes come from? That is utter BS. Some of them don't but then again some citizens don't pay taxes either. Tell me how does an illegal avoid paying sales tax, car taxes, gas taxes, etc? How about the illegals that use false SS numbers. They pay income tax and SS but don't file for a return...... They do pay taxes.... sure some work under the table and that is different. Perhaps if we gave them an easy way to pay taxes and not have to work under the table....
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By the way, I know a shitload of illegal immigrants, and they all pay taxes. Not just to the IRS, but all the stuff we pay tax on in our daily lives, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol.. You've assembled a bunch of straw men and convinced yourself you have an army. Open your eyes for once. Fact is this country cannot exist without illegal immigration right now, nor anytime in the future. Now you tell me how to deal with that. Furthermore there is a massive illegal population of eastern europeans in the northeast united states and chinese in the west, but you NEVER hear people talk about how evil they are, and how they need to be deported. This could be construed as veiled racism. Fuck it man, this is what America is all about. Starting over, and working your way to wealth from nothing. You're honestly going to take that away from impoverished third worlders? What the hell is wrong with you. |
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The real issue is the illegal part, not the immigrant part. The US is 99% immigrants on the right time line. I don't care if we're being overrun by purple Martians... as long as they immigrate legally. |
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There are places in California and Florida where schools aren't even taught in English. That is wrong -- these children won't have a way to succeed outside their communities. Now I'm all for people seeking a legal way into this country. But you can't just let everyone in -- you CAN'T. Meanwhile, if your illegal friends were offered a green card, legal rights, and a path to citizenship, would they accept? They even can take their immediate family along! They'd have to be crazy not to want that. Most illegals do not have car insurance or a driver's license. This is bad news too. That means if I get hit by an illegal then I have to file for a hit-and-run in most cases, and the roads are not getting safer. Personally I am glad that some states are starting to offer illegal aliens the ability to be insured. Good for those states. But for now, this is still another argument about illegal aliens. If we could stop illegal immigration almost completely, just think how many more legal aliens we could admit; those people who do not want to break the law but desperately want to live here. Did you ever think of that? Next time you disagree with someone, attack the statement, not the person. For someone on the TFP for so long, I would expect you to know better. |
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Hmm, any ideas that legislators and Latino immigrants would agree to… hmm: Amnesty for some and miniature American flags for others.
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There are places in the midwest where schools are taught in German..... ohh no how could they!!
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Now, do any of you give a shit about that? I doubt it. I'd like to ask you, why not? Why don't you care about all the people I could be killing with my reckless driving every day, why aren't you calling for my arrest or deportation? I don't deserve to be an American citizen. I'm a danger to those around me. There are undocumented immigrants who drive more legally than I do. So why not call for more enforcement of illegal drivers and get me kicked out before I kill someone? After all, being illegal is BAD. VERY BAD. I am a bad person for driving illegally, and I must be punished. I'm truly interested in your answers. |
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Status is about money... more appropriately... the government taking it from us in the form of taxes to fund various systems. I don't think that I should pay for illegal immigrant kids to go to school as well as my own. You really can't use the excuse that you're a shitty driver to defend illegal aliens. |
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I'd gladly pay 3x the amount I'm paying for vegetables if it meant that our system was working without paying subminimum wages to illegals. Legality is a totally black or white area in statutory law. Enforcement of said laws, however, is not. Illegal means a whole lot in the US. Ever dealt with the court system? :) |
Let's stop putting out the strawman that they don't pay taxes! It is a complete lie. Most illegals have a fake SS number, or have overstayed there visa and have a real SS number.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1e10ruben.html Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in549153.shtml Quote:
Do Illegals pay consumer taxes? Yes Do Illegals pay property taxes? Yes (if they own property) Do Illegals pay SS tax? Some do (if they are not working under the table) Do Illegals who are working under the table pay SS? Some do Illegals pay SS and medicaid but don't qualify for them! They pay consumer taxes which in many cases are the primary fund for education. I would bet there is more money lost due to unpaid taxes each year from US citizens working under the table than illegal immigrants. |
Ummm who gives a crap if they pay taxes or not.
I love my magical mexicans that come and cut my lawn once a week. They are brown gifts from heaven who do a job I really hate to do. But again so what..... If the system is such that we have over 10 MILLION people in this country illegally the system is broken at some fundamental level. Either the concept is wrong, or the enforcement is poor. I think it should be obvious in this case its both. So rather than responding in the typical cliched ways think about what aspect is important to you and defend that one. Me, I'm for the guest worker concept. This will be of course opposed by the 'they took our jorbs' people, as well as the 'man the us is all immigrants man, whats your right to say man.', but I'll live with that. |
I think everyone starts to panic when the life raft gets full.
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Perhaps what we should instead be saying is that these are Under-Enforced Illegal Immigrants, to get the point across. Because that IS the point... that America does its piddly best to "enforce" these immigration laws, but certainly not what is in our full capability to do, because it's not in our best economic and political interests to "enforce" these things. Here it is again: Quote:
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Bush, Gore, and Kerry all did spots in Spanish, and it wasn't to tell them to stop coming over illegally. |
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if the "problem" is undocumented workers in this thread, how does this "issue" of a spanish-speaking voting bloc enter the picture?
so far as i can tell, it's non-sequitor. |
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First there are cases of illegals voting, but lets pass that for now. Do these people have friends, family, and the like who are legal? Are not some of the current legals former illegals? Why is it whenever we try to crack down on illegal aliens, so many legal hispanics protest it? |
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They might pay taxes, but they don't celebrate halloween. Now that's sad.
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i did think it through, ustwo, and i dont follow any of your connections.
you assume that there is a continuity between undocumented worker flows and flows of people who take up permanent residency--that's not been demonstrated and setting it up is nothing more or less than trying to slide the category of "illegal immigration" in by a back door--and makes no sense asa linkage that you could take for granted without any supporting information unless you are operating with "illegal immigration" as the way you organize information. i dont think the category is accurate, so these connections require demonstration. demonstrations put on by spanish-speaking organizations against issues that effect undocumented workers can happen for any number of reasons--the fact that they happen is not enough to link undocumented workers to permanant residents. for example, a demo could be mounted because policies directed against undocumented workers often subject other folk to racist behaviors--which is one of the points of abaya's story above. the problem there is the extent to which the category "illegal immigration" structures ambient racism in the states. it says nothing about the extent to which these populations are connected--except in the imaginations of those who think about this sort of thing through fucked up categories like "illegal immigration" so the problem is that the notion of illegal immigration is the problem. that there are cases of "illegals voting" is irrelevant here. so i agree with you that it's a good issue to leave aside. |
rb, it is relevant in that exactly the opposite of what Ustwo asserts is an ancillary problem, is closer to the truth. The DOJ was subverted to devote huge resources to ferret out a partsinized "bogeyman", organized "illegal voting", that does not exist.
It is dark comedy, watching people vote for politicians who are committed, along with the people who vote for them, to the idea that government "cannot do anything right". They are on record as having an entrenched belief that government is only effective in areas where their perceived interests and concerns lie. Why do they spend so much more money, compared to prior office holders who were committed to making government work better, then, on government that they don't believe in and are indifferent to the continuation or improvement of, even as they furiously partisanize it to here to fore unexperienced extremes? They would not cotton to promoting generals who do not believe that the military can be an effective force, but they enthusiastically support the notion of people "running" the government who want to loot it as they dismantle it and make it look as if it is grossly incompetent in it's downward spiral that they've championed. |
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I've always contributed to these illegal immigration topics in the past – some of you know my story. Evey time this topic comes up, you have your two groups: Those who want a way to grant amnesty to illegal immigrant already here, be it point-system, additional taxes, etc; and you have those who want to deport them all under the blanket assumption that they are a drain on society simply because of the label of “illegal”. To those who place themselves in the latter category, I've always asked the following question, which has never been answered by anyone in this category: If you were in the shoes of an illegal immigrant, would you not do the exact same thing? Really, try it. If you had a wife and kid, and your country didn't allow you the opportunity to support them, but you saw that you could get into the US, work for meager wages and send them back to feed you family, would you not choose this [illegal] action in lou of letting them starve to death? I hate to quote myself, but I think I made myself more clear in a <a href=”http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=119181”>previous thread</a>: Quote:
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I'm not defending a broken system but pointing out the flaws in the arguments to deport all the illegal immigrants posted by the xenophobes. The system is broken on both sides and I posted earlier what I believe a good solution is. The number one thing is we have to treat people with respect.
It is my belief that the greatest human trait is empathy, people who can put themselves into others positions and see things from their point of view. I ask any of you who are anti immigrants to ask yourself. If you were born in a poor and corrupt nation, were taught the importance of family way more than it is in the US, and your family (parents, grandparents, wife, children, etc) were practically starving, and you had a chance to give them a better life by sneaking into another country where you would work jobs that the other country didn't want to work. Would you not go? Or would you not at least feel pride for those who did? I wish every person in America would vote only after seeing the issues from all points of view and not just the a strictly liberal or conservative view. |
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There are no jobs that legal residents "don't want to work", only jobs filled with demand from willing, underbidding illegals: Feds raided this New Bedford, Ma. defense contractor's factory and found 350 heavily exploited illegal workers: http://www.projo.com/news/content/pr....25f7a41d.html Local, legal residents then lined up at the factory to seek jobs replacing the illegal workers: Quote:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/...ed.htm#Georgia If you work for tips at, say a Waffle House anywhere in Georgia, (and there are probably several thousand, who do....) the recent minimum wage increase for non-tipped workers does not benefit you. Your base wage is still $2.13 per hour, the same it was in 1997. How much do you think a server can make per hour, in tips in a low priced menu environment? Do you suspect that, without the pool of competing, low cost labor, Georgia's legislature would find it neccessary to raise the tipped employee minimum wage to, say, where it is in Nevada, a state with no tip offset, where restaurant waitstaff make minimum wage, $5.85/hr now, or $3.72/hr more than in Georgia. If many illegal workers were fortune 500 CEO's and CFO's, willing to work for a third of what American executives receive in compensation, how long do you think it would take for a "crack down" on the illegals? It is generous of you to concede higher paying job opportunities to illegal workers, opportuinities that are not yours to concede, and do not hurt you. Why do you think Mr. Bush supports an easy, non-punitive immigration policy? It is because it benefits his "base", handsomely. Their businesses profit nicely from a cheap compliant immigrant labor pool, and there is a ready pool of cheap domestic help available to make their living that much more pleasant. I don't enjoy domestic help in my home, do you? Where would you ever get the idea that it is appropriate to give away the employment opportunities at market driven wages, of the least affluent Americans, rather than advocate for enforcing laws that would not artificially increase that labor pool and dilute wages and benefits, compared to conditions if the law was enforced? Remember when this problem gained traffic. Reagan era amnesty for illegal workers was followed by a broken, 1986 commitment for the strict immigration law enforcement that accompanied the amnesty legislation. I have to hold my nose to post the following opinion, but it is informative: Quote:
My advice is to leave this issue to Bush and his party, for now. If the presidency changes hands next year, there will be an opportunity for "reform" that will put the interests of the least wealthiest 20 percent of American workers first, instead of the interests of the top 5 percent, and the perceived interests of the illegal aliens "who only come here looking for work to try to better themselves". Understand that your advocacy for them makes the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans the winners, the least 20 percent legal US residents the losers, and continues to lure the most ambitious and impatient young foreigners into the US. Strict enforcement of existing laws and realistic penalties levied against employers who hire and profit from illegals, would remove the incentive for illegal workers to be here. Deportation would not be necessary if illegals could not find or keep jobs because of their status. |
I'm a bit late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents. My proposed system is one in which everyone lines up, gets checked against databases of wanted criminals and known terrorists, and once we find they're not on the list they get a green card, a social security number, and can start working, paying taxes, and getting the same benefits as everyone else. If they're here illegally, they can have 3 months to get everything in order and get in line with everyone else. The only restriction is how quickly the paperwork can be processed. If you're caught being here illegally under such a liberal system, you're out for a few years. If you're caught again, you're out for good.
Anyone who completes a college degree in the US should automatically be given citizenship as a way to draw in a diverse crowd of college students and make sure that people who come here to learn can stay here and contribute to the economy. Quote:
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Your amnesty is only a portion of the total effect of your proposal. The net effect, after all of the relatives of the predominantly young now illegal laborers you are extending amnesty to, also are admitted as permanent US residents, is a shitload of low skilled, working age folks. <h3>As your amnesty progresses towards implementation, additional millions will find their way here in an attempt to qualify.</h3> All of them, pressing against the hopes for higher wages and better employment opportunities of the legal residents. All of them, affecting only the lowest sector of employment, pushing down the wage rates of only that sector...the sector absolutely least able to absorb such an economic setback, a wealth and opportunity redistribution. Who benefits, why, the wealthiest among us, of course. As usual, it's "tough shit" for the least of us. Good plan, such an expression of largess, with the meager opportunities for wealth accumulation, of the legal population with the least. We communicate a policy where laws that are intended to maintain the same justice and opportunity for all who follow the law, and for those who break it, does not apply if you're fortunate enough to be an illegal immigrant, or Scooter Libby. What does an amnesty communicate to those who followed procedure, waited in line, were separated by immigration restricitions from loved ones for long periods, who applied, were turned down, and then reapplied, and those who have been permanently separated due to denial of visa applications, if those who break the law, are given what you propose? At the least, employers of illegals who profited handsomely between the spread on what they paid these workers, compared to what they charged for products and services (did new homes built by cheap illegal immigrant labor, result in cheaper prices passed on to consumers, than if higher priced legal laborers were hired?), will be rewarded for their lawbreaking or plain selfish greed. At most, changes in the law will hand them a new class of captive, low priced labor, kept docile and compliant by employer "sponsorship" provisions. A lot to ignore, to arrive at such magnanimity, as you, and so many others have, if you think about it? |
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MrSelfDestruct rounds it all out with his posted preference for tax "reform" that is regressive for the bottom half of the country's household, and is "only fair" to the wealthiest. Here's how some of the wealthiest got that way. They encouraged lax immigration enforcement and then "mined" the bodies that slipped in, cutting wages for the folks who had fought to achieve a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, and then turning them out when it suited them. You have the luxury of "feeling", instead of examining. Why not give a green card to the illegal worker after you give him amnesty, and to his aunt and first cousins, because they are his dependents, part of his household in Mexico. Since there is no indication that your sympathies are with anyone but the illegals, consider that the illegals have priced American residents out of the jobs that they've taken: Quote:
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Sheesh ! I'm not a radical. My father was a career labor relations lawyer, he represented management in contract negotiations, but he believed in respecting workers right to organize. I've been a union shop steward, and I've also been a business owner. I see almost no posted perspectives, on these threads that is fair or sustainable, or cognizant of today's economic conditions, as far as support for labor or for more equitable wealth distribution. All I see are folks who supported politicians who told them that government is ineffective, it doesn't work....but there they were, wanting to run it, and make gains for themselves and their cronies, as they ran the government they mismanaged, into the ground. Now, a number of you want to elect the most fervent, anti "big government" candidate for president, because, he's honest. He still hates government. Why would you want to elect him to run it? You wouldn't hire a football coach who didn't believe coaching players, and you wouldn't want a general who didn't believe that a military force could be organized and managed to be effective and efficient. <h3>We have a huge and growing trend of wealth imbalance, and the solution...do away with progressive income taxes, and legalize a huge pool of docile, illegal workers who work for much less than the American residents. Way to go !!</h3> I do not see coherent sets of ideas posted in this forum, and the ones that are posted are supported by links to, what????? |
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Yes, there are some people who will get away with what they've done. But, it would be possible to stop illegal immigration COMPLETELY after offering amnesty, all with the support of the pro-illegal immigrant demographic. You are complaining that it's not fair, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. There's not a way to eliminate all the problems that illegal workers has created. Can you do better? |
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Make it so the risk isn't worth it anymore. they cross our borders illegally for job opportunities. Eliminate the reason they come here illegally. I have a friend who has lived in the US illegally for 15 years. He's been employed here the entire time. He just returned after a trip back to his home country, his first in 11 years. To leave here, he simply went to the airport in the US and flew non-stop to his home city. To return to the US, he had to hire a "coyote" to get him across the border, and once across, he had to hire "underground" van transportation to a northern west coast city. He was too concerned about immigration enforcement to take a bus or a train to back here in the east, so he borrowed money from a sister living legally in the US, to pay the exorbitant fee of the same, underground van service, for the privilege of sitting for 4 days in a windowless cargo van, packed with other illegals, as it dropped them off in cities one at a time, all across the US. He had the misfortune of being the last to be dropped off. My solution? Make it as hard of a task to hire an illegal alien, in addition to the risk of stiff penalties if you're caught employing them, as it was for my friend to return to his home of 15 years. Now, they're doing it right out in the open. The easiest part of my friend's return was finding a job. I don't want to see my friend forced by our government to return to his home country. He'll leave on his own if he can't find someone to look the other way at the questionable documentation he provides to a US employer to obtain a job. He is unhappy here, and it isn't the poverty at home that brings him here. He's here because Americans are willing to employ him, even though he does not have the legal right to work, or even be, in the US. It was inconvenient for my friend to come back here, security is much tighter than it was 11 years ago, when he last returned to the US. The US employers have not begun to be harrassed by authorities for what they have been doing....let's inconvenience them, by enforcing the laws. Huge numbers of illegals were employed by home builders during the recent housing boom. The high profile builder with a national presence, simply hired "subs" who employed the illegals. Federal, state and local govenment has made a practice of doing the same thing. Bears used to be a much bigger menace in high traffic areas in some national parks, than they are today. Securing access to food sources, education to promote public awareness, and fining those who still fed the bears, anyway, drastically reduced the bears incentive to forage in popullated areas instead of hunting and foraging in the wild. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I'm not comparing illegal aliens to bears. I am pointing out how stopping the incentive to intrude will drastically reduce the intrusion. |
If anyone within the United States should "hate" illegal immigration, it's blacks as they're the ones who are immediately hurt by the influx of illegals (Job wise). No one else should have any real argument against illegal immigration, as they help the overall economy far more than they hurt it.
*Goes back to being a silent observer* |
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http://www.masslive.com/news/republi...mmigrants.html http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/2006/...he-us-economy/ But anyways, I found your marching orders ... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/9/74030/4379 (man I feel dirty now) But when you want to come mow my lawn, let me know. |
Its common sense that they add a lot on to the gdp because they do more work for less money. That's incredibly valuable.
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I wonder what the reaction would be from our white collar workers if we allowed an influx of illegals that cut their wages and benefits in half? Would we be talking about the advantages of lower prices for those of us still able to make a decent wage? Maybe that is the next step, after all it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to do most of the paper shuffling jobs in corporate America. Lower wages = lower prices + higher profits, what could possibly go wrong? |
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Now, the problem we are talking about here are unskilled workers, the bottom of the labor food chain, being replaced by mexicans. Lets not beat around the bush and say its illegal immigrants, its Mexicans mostly. They work hard, generally show up for work, and stay out of trouble. Not all of course, but having worked in food service for several years while in school, despite having half the kitchen staff being mexicans of unknown legality, the problem employees tended to be the non-mexicans, mostly for theft or not showing up for work. With the "Everyone is special" mentality the last few generations have had, few are willing to do what amounts to a lowskill dirty job for any sane amount of pay. They might have no viable job skills, but work at McDonalds, do yard work, pick crops? Not me man! Whats interesting is just how many these legals and illegals I've known who have made SOMETHING of themselves. Minimal state assistance, and yet they created their own American dreams from hard work. I have to wonder if thats perhaps what scares some members of the left. Where did this 'nationalism' come from on the left where suddenly they are worried about US citizens? Could it be that America still works, and it doesn't require a pile of socialist programs to work for even the 'lowest' members of the economic food chain? Perhaps these people are an embarrassment to some mindsets of the left where it shows their socialist programs are unneeded to succeed in America. They then wrap their arguments in an almost jingoistic reactionary veneer of protecting American jobs. My only desire is to keep it fair competition wise. Thats why I support a guest worker system where paying under the table (aka tax free) can be lessoned and VERY stiff fines for those using illegals to avoid taxation. Take out the taxes and I can hire an illegal for less while paying him MORE than I would a citizen which isn't fair competition. |
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not that THEY were illegal, but the point is basically the same. The government promoting an outside source of cheaper labor for specific industries. |
Ustwo,
I have mixed feelings about all this. I have worked in Mexico and here with high tech Mexicans who are very good at their jobs and very hard working. Before I retired and moved I was good friends with several and spent a lot of time with them and their families. I guess one of the reasons I disagree with allowing uncontrolled illegal immigration is observing what happens in the rural area in which I now live. There are a lot of blue collar type jobs here and wages have taken a hit from illegal competition. A friend of mine in the roofing/painting business claims he is forced to hire illegals because his competitors do and otherwise his bids would be too high. He also claims that the Mexicans he hires do great work and do not hesitate to work long hours and weekends unlike the locals he hires and work for much less money and do not insist on benefits. Unlike locals he hires they are genuinely glad to have a job and will go overboard to keep it. What are we to do with the local blue collar types when their wages and benefits are reduced this way. Not everyone can be a professional and improve their job outlook. I spent 30 years as an Engineer and I wonder how I would have handled being told that I now have to work for much less with no benefits because of an illegal labor pool. When I was young I worked for a summer or two as a laborer on construction sites and would not wish this back breaking work for anyone but there are people who need this type of work. It seems unfair to allow an illegal immigation policy that makes wages even lower for them and discourages employers from giving any benefits. Quote:
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He worked harder than everyone else around him (combined), was very happy with wages that are low by American standards but high by Honduran standards, and is embarking on what looks to be a very promising career as an owner of a landscaping company. Had he been chased out by Minutemen or turned in to INS, none of this could have happened. Opportunities like those he's taken advantage of here in the US simply don't exist in Honduras, and I can't imagine anyone saying that he doesn't deserve the same opportunities as me simply because he had the misfortune of being born outside of the US. He does deserve them, and I respect him for taking full advantage of them. I support immigration reform because the only way Juan-Carlos could become an American was by breaking the law. Ideally, I'd like open boarders, but if a system was put in place that didn't make it nearly impossible to get into the US, I think it'd be a good start. |
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