10-12-2007, 08:44 AM | #1 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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turkey, armenia, iraq yikes.
ok so this is a curious turn of events.
for a few weeks now, turkey has been massing its military (strange alliteration) on the northern border of iraq, claiming that the kurdish pkk has been launching attacks into turkey from iraq. this build up has been happening for some time now, but up to this point the turkish government has been persuaded by the americans not to go beyond a buildup. but--again (important for what follows) this is not something that is just now, all of a sudden, starting to happen. on wednesday (i think) the house foreign relations committee passed a resolution that declared the 1915 turkish massacres of its armenian populations to have been genocide. ==== if you dont know the backstory, here is a page on the armenian genocide (framed as such) http://www.armenian-genocide.org/ and here a bbc article on the general turkish position concerning 1915: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6386625.stm caveat--the english language web-presence on this issue is heavily oriented around 1915 as genocide. i dont read turkish--if anyone has links to sites that represent the turkish position better than the bbc article, please post as it stands, i find this position a bit incomprehensible) ================== the other complexity: relations between turkey and the kurdish population: here is a short summary, from a blog (i know, i know...) http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=vi...&language_id=1 ================================ anyway, on wednesday the house frc passes a largely symbolic resolution declaring 1915 to have been genocide. the turkish government flips its shit. here's an nyt article over the flap itself: Quote:
and here a guardian article from this morning that outlines the linkages between this resolution and the situation on the northern border of iraq: Quote:
got it? personally, my initial (and still dominant) response has been "wtf?" the situation is kinda insane now. now the bush people opposed the hfc action because they were afraid that it'd get linked to the situation on the northern border--and in this--and i am feel almost dirty saying it--they were right. but: a. the ottoman action against its armenian population seems to me to hve been clearly genocidal---but turkey is not the ottoman empire---the ottomans lost in world war 1 (therefore genocide becomes an operative category) while turkey has not lost a war lately (therefore "ethnic cleansing" or some other equally repellent term)--because it seems that genocide is only genocide if the folk who carry it out lost a war (think the us extermination of the native american population--what do you call that?) but this is equally true, and has been, for a long time. b. because this resolution passed, turkey withdrew its ambassador from the us...so the americans have for the time being lost their ability t pressure turkey to not do anything and now turkey is doing the saber rattle thing, invoking bushworld's foundational discourse of "terrorism" to justify military action against the kurds in northern iraq. this could become very ugly very quickly. i cant help but think that the hfc was kinda irresponsible to pass this resolution at this particular moment. but even this is not so easy, because i endorse the contents of the resolution. i am bewildered---beyond that really---by turkey's response, which seems completely out of whack with the situation at hand. but it is also clear that the government of turkey IS this offended AND that they have been sort of waiting for the chance to do something against kurdistan. this puts the americans in a truly bad position. what happens if this goes past dick waving? the americans end up fighting turkey to defend the kurds in a country it invaded? what do you make of this chaos?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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10-12-2007, 09:10 AM | #2 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Our chaos is spilling over? I can't say I'm surprised. As for the genocide, it happened and denying it is rather horrible, but you're right in that a government that's long since passed was responsible, not the turks specifically.
The US thinks that Turkey is thinking about getting directly involved and is threatened because we're already losing and it's already chaos in most regions. If Turkey starts hoping across the border to shit on the Kurds who can't keep to themselves, then it will potentially get all the worse still. The realty, as I see it, though, is that Turkey is local, well organized, and is familiar with the type of desert warfare that we weren't prepared for. Instead of antagonizing them, we should be asking them for help. |
10-12-2007, 09:11 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Crazy, I know?
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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10-12-2007, 03:25 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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Quote:
this is an interesting twist...
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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10-12-2007, 07:05 PM | #5 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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I've posted several times about this "problem", in the past year:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...rk#post2121495 Quote:
Several background articles in this post: (#29) http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...rk#post2184138 Quote:
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IMO, the timing of the US resolution on Turks committing genocide, could not be worse. The Turks are in total denial, but the US fails to appreciate the delicate political balance today in Turkey. Both the religiousized government and it's opposing military leaders have increasing, equal incentive to appear tough on the Kurdish threat, before the court of opinion of non-Kurdish Turks, and...with the Turks' extreme attitude of denial on the Armenian issue, our congress pours gasoline on the fire. Turkey was our best hope for relations with a secular Muslim, westernized country. The Turks knew that the US did not take it's concerns seriously enough when the US aligned itself with the Kurds in nothern Iraq, and then unilaterally destroyed Saddam's government without enough consideration of the consequences....for the Turks.... of an Iraq in disarray. The real damage was caused by removing the regional stabilization effected by Saddam's regime, and the only palatable way to execute an Armenian genocide resolution, would have been after a native American genocide resolution..... Last edited by host; 10-12-2007 at 07:10 PM.. |
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10-12-2007, 08:06 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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host, I have been trying to understand why this pointless position was brought to a vote today. These things don't happen without some cause or intent in mind, but I can't make any sense of it.
Turkey is an important ally in the region, but it is also threatening the Iraqi border. My "follow the money" cynacism tells me that the US is willing to give up an important ally, if Kurdish oil wells might be at risk. Your thoughts?
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
10-13-2007, 01:00 AM | #7 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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Good, detailed background, here, Elphalba....my friend has impressed upon me that Turkey regards Kirkuk as a part of Turkey because of claims from the days when it was part of the Ottoman Empire that dissolved with the Turkish defeat in WWI, the large Kirkuk ethnic Turk population, and the large oil deposits are an added incentive...Kirkuk is south of the Kurd controlled area of Northern iraq....it's location probably makes it impossible that it will ever be reunited with Turkey.... Quote:
....but the Turks and Kurds have been an ongoing problem.... Quote:
http://goturkey.turizm.gov.tr/BelgeG...C077A9979C33C4 Report from German magazine on the background of the US legislative committee vote: Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Deukmejian |
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10-13-2007, 07:01 AM | #8 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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Why doesn't the UN/Turkey/Iran/China or whatever country pass some resolution saying that the US committed genocide against the Indians/Native Americans 200 years ago. They probably don't even need to go back 20 years to find examples of us committing genocide. Hell, I wouldn't even support a resolution saying that Germany committed genocide against Jewish people. It happened 60 years ago. It is past history, you can't change it. WHY DON"T THEY DEAL WITH WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW? It's not like there isn't any genocide going on in Sudan, Myamar, or Iraq... |
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10-17-2007, 10:11 PM | #10 (permalink) |
is awesome!
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Regarding the Turkish troops massing at the border: the U.S. needs to show a little more backbone here. Iraqi Kurds don't seem to hold much sway with the central government and even if they did, any deployment of the Iraqi army would be indistinguishable from U.S. forces (same uniforms, equipment, officers etc.). The U.S. should make clear that any incursion into Northern Iraq will not be tolerated and will result in Turkey being immediately expelled from NATO. Having two NATO countries in open conflict would undermine the premise of that treaty and make it meaningless. Turkey sees the Iraqi Kurds as being in a weak position and they think the U.S. forces are stretched too thin to retaliate. They're in a position to make an opportunistic land grab in Northern Iraq. On the other hand the Kurdish separatist PKK is almost certainly using Kurd-controlled Northern Iraq as a launching pad for terrorist attacks. It's a conundrum.
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10-19-2007, 06:33 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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10-19-2007, 07:25 AM | #12 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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the story at this point:
so the turkish legislature took this opportunity to approve military incursions into northern iraq, but didnt attach a particular timetable to it. diplomatic contact between the us and turkey seems to me ongoing, but not via the usual channels so far as i know--i havent seen anything about the turkish ambassador to the united states coming back to the states. meanwhile, support for the resolution passed a week ago by the house foreign relations committee appears to be collapsing. the pkk claim (article bit above) that they have moved or are moving their bases of operations into turkey remains out there, floating in space. meanwhile, in northern iraq: Quote:
and this from todays ny times offers a more geopolitically oriented take on the situation as it currently stands: Quote:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 10-19-2007 at 07:31 AM.. |
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10-20-2007, 08:11 AM | #14 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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things are becoming curiouser and curiouser.
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but they arent exactly waiting around: Quote:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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10-20-2007, 08:28 AM | #15 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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All this reminds me of post-genocidal Rwanda and it's conflict with Zaire.
The international response to genocide is haphazard at best and the tap-dance of denial by genocidal entities is revoltingly perverse. Sorry I don't have anything of substance to offer to this thread, but to me it's just another example of how the real world takes on the frivolity of bad drama to the lethal detriment of people who just want to do important things like eat and get out of bed in the morning. it make you sick - yez, it does.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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armenia, iraq, turkey, yikes |
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