Illegal Flag Vs. Destruction of Private Property - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

archetypal fool · 10-03-2007, 07:48 PM

Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:

A Veteran from Reno, Nev. has hit headlines after he took matters into his own hands yesterday and tore down a Mexican flag that was being illegally flown above a U.S. flag at a local business.

Local news station krnv News 4 had received calls yesterday afternoon from angry residents complaining about the Mexican flag. When the station sent a reporter to investigate the Veteran took the opportunity to make a statement in front of the cameras.

The man commented "I'm Jim Brossert and I took this flag down in honor of my country with a knife from the United States army. I'm a veteran, I am not going to see this done to my country. if they want to fight us, then they need to be men, and they need to come and fight us, but I want somebody to fight me for this flag. They're not going to get it back."

The hispanic store owner who witnessed the incident would not make comment on camera but told krnv over the phone that he was flying the flag as a mark of solidarity to the hispanic community. Pro-immigration protests have been ongoing in the area all weekend after raids were conducted by authorities in the area last week.

The store owner said he is an American citizen and did not know what he was doing was against the law. However, according to federal law it is illegal to fly any flag above the U.S. flag, and if flying more than one they must be on separate poles and be of an equal size.

The Reno police department has told krnv that Brossert will faces charges for theft if the store owner files a police report of what happened.

Similar incidents have previously been reported in Maywood, CA., Tucson, Arizona, and Jupiter, Florida.

I don't like this in any way - but from what I hear (err...read from comments on Digg.com) this man has support - a lot of support from people who not only agree with what he did, but demand that more such actions be taken by force, without regard for private property. I can appreciate nationalism and patriotism, but I don't think what the veteran did was called for. Furthermore, I'm more than a little disappointed that so many people have been energized by his actions. For starters, the business owner is a citizen, but people still used this case as a means to further their own prejudice against immigrants (or so I assume from the Digg comments). He was ignorant of a law which has never been enforced and forwhich you can't be prosecuted for disobeying (and to be honest, I had no idea such a law existed either - I've never heard it mentioned and I've never felt the urge to dive into Title 4 of the United States Code). The only reason the owner did what he did was to show solidarity to his Latin American community and be proud of his heritage. The veteran not only damaged private property, but has refused to return it. He did what he did in full spectacle of the public, so as to ensue outrage for the perceived act of disrespect for the American flag.

So, then, the question: How does the TFP community feel about this? Was the veteran correct in what he did? Was the store owner disrespectful of the nation which he is a citizen of?

ubertuber · 10-03-2007, 07:57 PM

It's kind of a silly law, but it's a law nonetheless.

However, that doesn't make vigilanteism cool. It's not. He should have called the cops.

Cynthetiq · 10-03-2007, 08:07 PM

But the cops aren't going to arrest someone for flying the flag improperly... seriously what would the police do?

I think that it is unfortunate that people have to take such bold steps to prove a point because just calling the local officials won't garner much action. Although there was a gas station owner who flew 100s of flags, and that did get the rankles of the local government up. Some other obscure law...

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-03-2007, 09:13 PM

Ignorance of the law is no pass. At the same time I don't equate flying flags as anything felonious or to be worried about.

I don't know I think the general TFP statement will obviously be the old man is some cranked out uber conservative neo-con nationalist facist (insert big word and psychological profile word here). Maybe he is.

I imagine this has a lot to do with the illegal immigration issue. I don't knock some old school veteran getting pissed when he sees his flag being insulted: remember he clearly knew whats what in the situation, even giving the store owner the benefit of the doubt.

I don't get it, mainly how the TFP responds. People here are so quick to get down on the conservative type if they don't see problems or respond to outrage with certain issues. I don't see what makes this guy so wrong, or other Americans who hold the same beliefs. I mostly wish that the moral/political relativism went both ways sometimes.

Also its funny, the headline "Veteran removes ILLEGAL Mexican flag".

People in this country are allowed to make citizens arrest as far as I rememer. Since nothing was being done grossly criminal, I really see nothing wrong, so long as the old guy didn't threaten people directly with the knife while removing. Let him pay some joke ass fee, I think it is a matter of principle.

scout · 10-04-2007, 01:59 AM

Throughout history thousands of people have died keeping old Glory flying high and proud and above all else. No wonder the old veteran was so disgusted. It's very possible he has witnessed people die while trying to keep that flag flying high. To see your flag flying underneath another should horrify every single American.

For the store owner so say he didn't know it was illegal is bullshit. No doubt he had to have received at least a few calls from citizens informing him if they took the time to call the police. If he was truly an American citizen then the thought of another flag flying above his adopted country's flag should horrify him too.

It's not ok to burn our flag. It's not ok to fly another above it. At the very minimum to do either is showing a huge disrespect for all our men and women that who have given their life to keep it flying. I personally feel it's a treasonous act to fly another flag above the Stars and Stripes and should be punishable as such.

MrTia · 10-04-2007, 02:29 AM

i dont get it. should everyone in every country freak out if they see their flag flying under someone else's flag? or is the USA the only country that merits always having their flag on top? and if you believe so, are you really that befuddled when this right-wing fad has made America so deeply unpopular all around the world?

it seems to me like if you really love your country and are secure with your national identity, you'd understand that the USA is a country in a nation of countries and wouldn't feel the need to demand that the USA invariably dominate other countries, even if it's just in a symbolic way like this.

Bill O'Rights · 10-04-2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archetypal fool

He did what he did in full spectacle of the public, so as to ensue outrage for the perceived act of disrespect for the American flag.

Perceived? There was nothing perceived about it. It was a flagrant act of disrespect. I might even go so far as to say that it is a spit in your face insult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by archetypal fool

I've never heard it mentioned and I've never felt the urge to dive into Title 4 of the United States Code.

I see. Do they no longer teach civics in school? These were things that I knew by the third grade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by archetypal fool

For starters, the business owner is a citizen, but people still used this case as a means to further their own prejudice against immigrants .

Whoa there. This has absolutely not one damn thing to do with immigration. This has to do with the flag of a foreign nation given the position of superiority over the flag of a sovereign nation, on that nation's own soil. There was a time when that would have constituted an act of war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTia

i dont get it. should everyone in every country freak out if they see their flag flying under someone else's flag?

I would think that when it happens upon their own soil...yes, everyone in every country probably should freak out.

fresnelly · 10-04-2007, 05:02 AM

Did he approach the store owner in a civil manner before taking down the flag?

kramus · 10-04-2007, 05:12 AM

Flying a flag is a great responsibility. I don't know what the U.S. regulations are, but there are some definite rules about how to display the Canadian flag and it is reasonable to assume that some of these rules are common among nations. First, of course, is as BOR and others mention, is that the flag of the sovereign nation has pride of place. Always. There are others, such as the flag must be kept in good condition - i.e. it is disrespectful and even illegal to fly a tattered and worn flag (unless you are in desperate circumstances, such as when there are bullets flying). You are not supposed to fly a Canadian flag during extreme weather conditions or at night. No doubt there are others.
This storeowner can show solidarity towards his fellow Hispanics by flying a flag. His mistake was in flying it improperly, and quite probably, in the face of repeated requests to correct his display. Some personal rights are over-ridden from time to time. I won't equate a veteran removing a flag to a person smashing a car window to save an animal during a hot day, but there are some parallels. If the veteran is left alone, and someone supplies the storeowner with another flag which he flys properly, then the whole situation will resolve quietly.

MrTia · 10-04-2007, 05:24 AM

^that's fair, but it always seems like some folks take this stuff way too seriously. like how people freak out over all these trumped up stories of demonstrators burning the flag. they're pinheads to do that but to fly into a rage over it gives them too much credit and attention.

it's a SYMBOL, yanno? what's important is preserving the freedoms it represents.

archetypal fool · 10-04-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Perceived? There was nothing perceived about it. It was a flagrant act of disrespect. I might even go so far as to say that it is a spit in your face insult.

I'm having trouble seeing why this is such an outrageous act, when a multitude of companies purposefully put the flag on their merchandise for their profit and their own advance - bumper stickers, decals, license plates- from the very same section of the US code, this too is illegal. Why aren't people up in arms about that?

Damn it I gave to go. I'll finish later.

MrTia · 10-04-2007, 06:04 AM

didn't abby hoffman spark outrage back in the 60s wearing a suit made out of an american flag? and now we have...

Click for picture

appears the rules have changed, yeah?

Racnad · 10-04-2007, 07:15 AM

I'm no neo-con, but for some reason I have moderately strong feelings about the the proper way to handle & display flags, as well as saying the Pledge of Allegence (although I do leave out the "under God" phrase, which wasn't added until the 1950s). For example, there's a contraversy in the fairly liberal town I live in whether the city council should recite the Pledge of Allegence. I believe they should, just to make the point that right-wingers shouldn't have a monopoly on patriotism.

But back to the topic: If he had reported this crime to the police, would they have done anything? I suspect that many police departments would not consider flag issues to be worth their time. Did he destroy the Mexican flag, or does he still have it? If he has it, he should return it. If he destroyed it, then he should re-imburse the shop owner for the replacement cost. No other penalty.

And speaking of flags, I do NOT support laws against flag burning. If someone steals a flag and burns it, they can be charged with theft or vandalism. If they burn their own flag in a manner that does not violate laws against unsafe fires, that is covered by the First Ammendment.

archetypal fool · 10-04-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Perceived? There was nothing perceived about it. It was a flagrant act of disrespect. I might even go so far as to say that it is a spit in your face insult.

I'm having trouble seeing why this is such an outrageous act, when a multitude of companies purposefully put the flag on their merchandise for their profit and their own advance - bumper stickers, decals, license plates - just to feed off of the current political atmosphere. From the very same section of the US code, this too is illegal, and I consider it many times worse. Why aren't people up in arms about that?

I say the disrespect was perceived because the man was ignorant of the law. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean he meant to say "fuck you" to America - I think had he known what he was symbolizing he wouldn't have done what he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I see. Do they no longer teach civics in school? These were things that I knew by the third grade.

I never remember learning that. Then again, in the 3rd grade I was an idiot. Curriculum also differ depending on location. Maybe if they taught it in high school, the law would be more popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Whoa there. This has absolutely not one damn thing to do with immigration. This has to do with the flag of a foreign nation given the position of superiority over the flag of a sovereign nation, on that nation's own soil. There was a time when that would have constituted an act of war.

I know that this isn't solely a race thing. I was just pointing out an observation from the reaction over at Digg. That community is dumb anyways - I should've left that part out.

I would think that when it happens upon their own soil...yes, everyone in every country probably should freak out.[/QUOTE]

Cynthetiq · 10-04-2007, 08:47 AM

Since some people won't know what the code is that you are talking abotu

Quote:

Originally Posted by United States Code

United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag click to show

I for one don't disagree. I have very strong feelings about how my flag is treated. I however cannot be bothered too much by other people's right to be an asshole and be disrespectful to the flag.

I was taught in school and in scouts to have extreme reverence for the flag and what it stands.

Willravel · 10-04-2007, 08:50 AM

As has been said, vigilantism is against the law. The shop was wrong for breaking the law, and the vet was wrong for breaking the law. Both parties are at fault.

That said, I don't really have strong feelings about either side of this. The law in question is a bit nationalist, so I don't really personally care if it was done except that you don't just break a law you disagree with. You change the law. Likewise, I don't really care that this vet decided that this inoffensive thing was so amazingly horrible that he couldn't press 3 numbers on a phone. It wasn't a Vietnamese flag made out of human skin. It was jut a Mexican flag, the flag of our friendly neighbors. He acted like an idiot.

BTW, why would it matter if he was a vet? Does the flag somehow mean more to him because of that fact? Or was it just sensationalism?

Also, TFPers are generally a lot smarter than Diggers.

BigBaldRon · 10-04-2007, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

As has been said, vigilantism is against the law. The shop was wrong for breaking the law, and the vet was wrong for breaking the law. Both parties are at fault.

While this is true, the man who tore down the flag readily admitted to his crime and had no problem with people knowing who he was and why he did it. The store owner claims ignorance, and wouldn't be interviewed (which is his right) to explain his side of this situation to possibly curtail some of the hot emotions coming from the situation.

Quote:

That said, I don't really have strong feelings about either side of this. The law in question is a bit nationalist, so I don't really personally care if it was done except that you don't just break a law you disagree with. You change the law.

Absolutely correct. Don't like a law, contact your local representatives about changing it.

Quote:

Likewise, I don't really care that this vet decided that this inoffensive thing was so amazingly horrible that he couldn't press 3 numbers on a phone.

And here lies the problem. I don't know you personally, but I think the fact that you found it inoffensive and not worth the actions taken, a bit telling. The guy was in the army. He may or may not have served his nation (meaning me and you) in a battle in a far away land. He may have served his nation (meaning me and you) overseas, miles from his family. He may have served his nation (meaning you and me) by making personal sacrifices, like missing holidays with loved ones, missing birthdays, anniversaries, home cooked meals, perhaps the birth of one of his children, all for the sake of protecting the nation that he unquestionably loves. To say he isn't entitled to a reaction, or to say that his reaction was wrong, just doesn't make sense to me.

The guy seems like the type that would stand up in court and say "hell yes I did this". Not the kind that would say "I didnt know it was illegal" as an excuse.

Quote:

BTW, why would it matter if he was a vet? Does the flag somehow mean more to him because of that fact? Or was it just sensationalism?

It would seem to me that the flag somehow means more to him than it does to you. His status as a Veteran shows that he's a bit more personally invested in his nation than the average citizen.

Quote:

Also, TFPers are generally a lot smarter than Diggers.

True!

Willravel · 10-04-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBaldRon

While this is true, the man who tore down the flag readily admitted to his crime and had no problem with people knowing who he was and why he did it. The store owner claims ignorance, and wouldn't be interviewed (which is his right) to explain his side of this situation to possibly curtail some of the hot emotions coming from the situation.

What I mean to say is ignorance of the law isn't really an excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBaldRon

And here lies the problem. I don't know you personally, but I think the fact that you found it inoffensive and not worth the actions taken, a bit telling. The guy was in the army. He may or may not have served his nation (meaning me and you) in a battle in a far away land. He may have served his nation (meaning me and you) overseas, miles from his family. He may have served his nation (meaning you and me) by making personal sacrifices, like missing holidays with loved ones, missing birthdays, anniversaries, home cooked meals, perhaps the birth of one of his children, all for the sake of protecting the nation that he unquestionably loves. To say he isn't entitled to a reaction, or to say that his reaction was wrong, just doesn't make sense to me.

He's entitled to be pissed, but just because he was in the military doesn't make him a hero. Just because I don't miss Christmas doesn't mean I love my country any less, necessarily. BTW, unless he's a WW2 vet (which would make his feat amazing), he wasn't in a war defending the US from anything. He served political interests, whether he was brave to do so or not. My grandfather used to tell me about Korea before he died and all of the soldiers he knew understood that they weren't fighting for the US. He wasn't entitled to break the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBaldRon

It would seem to me that the flag somehow means more to him than it does to you. His status as a Veteran shows that he's a bit more personally invested in his nation than the average citizen.

I don't know if it's quite that simple. I don't want to get too much into a tangent, but leave us say that what's tantamount to flag worship signifies an individual is willing to suspend reason in favor of belief. The flag, in and of itself, is a piece of cloth. It's like any other symbol in that it can be used in certain ways and can mean different things to different people. I think dedication to the flag, though, makes no sense. It's nationalistic grandstanding, which again makes no sense. In my opinion, I've done far more in my 24 years for the US than he may have done as a soldier. Soldiers follow policy. Protesters and politically active people change policy. But, again, it's all a matter of perspective.

So, no, 'the flag' doesn't mean anything more to him than me. It just means something different. To me it represents positives like the revolutionary war and the Constitution, and it also represents negatives like mindless dedication to the state. It represents some ideals to me personally, but more importantly I recognize that because it means so many different things to different people it's harder to define a standard of dedication.

Had I seen the flag up there, I might have simply told the shop owner that he or she was breaking the law, and while I understood they didn't mean disrespect necessarily, laws are laws. If they didn't take it down after that? I don't really care. I think they have as much a right to be here as I do, so it's no big deal.

LazyBoy · 10-04-2007, 09:45 AM

I hate to say it....but if he wants to fly the Mexican flag above the American flag, I say he needs to take an American flag back with him to Mexico.

Viva la USA

-Will

roachboy · 10-04-2007, 10:08 AM

personally, i dont care about the flag issue at all.
it means almost nothing to me, and i find the fetishism of it to be bizarre.
but i understand where it comes from and generally do not find myself motivated to comment too much about the opinions of others on this simply because i dont see anything constructive coming of it.
it hardly seems worth the trouble.
people get all pissy. that's nice. go for it.
i really dont care.

that said, i think that comrade brossert's action was idiotic---because i have no sympathy at all with the jingo-politics that apparently lay behind it. of course, he is free to engage in this action and following my own arguments in other threads about the right to political protest, i dont think he should be prosecuted for it. but as i find nationalism to be a form of collective mental disorder, i have no sympathy for the politics he espouses.

but who knows, maybe this cat decided that staging a little agitprop might be a good career move. maybe he wants to get a conservative talkradio gig and figured this kind of thing worked for ollie north...

JohnBua · 10-04-2007, 11:19 AM

I think people should have boycotted the store. Nothing shows a message like interfering with your inflow of money.

MrTia · 10-04-2007, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

personally, i dont care about the flag issue at all.
it means almost nothing to me, and i find the fetishism of it to be bizarre. ..

dittoes, bob. :P

nonplussed · 10-04-2007, 12:04 PM

I agree with Mr. Tia and Roachboy. It's hard to think of anything sillier that getting all worked up over a piece of cloth.

If flying that Mexican flag over the US flag isn't an example of political speech then what is? And what is more important to our core values as a country than protecting political speech? Certainly not the deification of a piece of colored cloth.

ubertuber · 10-04-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonplussed

If flying that Mexican flag over the US flag isn't an example of political speech then what is? And what is more important to our core values as a country than protecting political speech? Certainly not the deification of a piece of colored cloth.

Now THAT'S an interesting angle I hadn't thought of. I wonder how that reasoning would fare in court.

Jetée · 10-04-2007, 04:06 PM

Icons and symbols of freedom seem to be taken too close to heart that it ensures that we end up losing that freedom we so proudly hail.

Reformation is direly needed before this country careens off this rickety track we have since boarded.

Elphaba · 10-04-2007, 05:41 PM

Seriously, what the fuck is happening to our country? A Norwegian flag is flown above a US flag down the road from me. I don't see the flocking of indignant neighbors and media over that positioning of those flags.

Let's be real here. This is about skin color and nothing more.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-04-2007, 05:44 PM

Yes because we all know Norwegian illegal immigration is a serious problem facing this country.

Willravel · 10-04-2007, 05:45 PM

Maybe you can tell me what the Mexican flag has to do with Vietnam or whatever war this guy is a vet of.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-04-2007, 05:48 PM

Maybe that this store owner was breaking the flag creedo and law of a sovereign nation? This old timer obviously knew the code and it po'd him. Perhaps he has a little bit too much love for old glory.

Elphaba · 10-04-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Yes because we all know Norwegian illegal immigration is a serious problem facing this country.

"WAS" would be true if you cared to read anything regarding the history of immigration to the US. Add Germans, Irish, and so many other "white" countries during periods of oppression.

Mojo, I know you have more intelligence than to persue this red herring.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-04-2007, 09:03 PM

How about you enlighten me then about the true immigration of white europeans to America?

The fact is it is those immigrants who built this nation into what it is were the Micks, wops, Crouts, and Polocks. It is so false to even attempt to compare any European immigrant from the 19th century through the early 20th century to what Illegal mexican immigration today.

The Mexicans are doing the same thing as the aforementioned white euros, seeking better fortune, but guess what the laws currently in place are so radically different and codified that yes their illegal immigration is the biggest source in this country, it is a problem, and all of it comes from south of the border.

Different times and way different context.

Willravel · 10-04-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Different times and way different context.

Why did you bring it up then?

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-04-2007, 09:17 PM

Because there aren't 10-20 million people from Norway here illegally for one?

Willravel · 10-04-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Because there aren't 10-20 million people from Norway here illegally for one?

Different times and way different context.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-04-2007, 09:50 PM

Ummm no. Said legislation that makes the 10-20 Mexicans illegal now were put in place as a result of the European exodus. Tamny Hall and the Civil War worked out great for the US as a result of the Irish, nothing illegal about how they got here. They made their way through Ellis Island or whatever port by and large. Different times different context.

dksuddeth · 10-05-2007, 02:31 AM

you don't fly a foreign flag over an american flag, period. I'd have cut it down also.

Racnad · 10-05-2007, 06:48 AM

You don't fly foreign flags over the American Flag while in America for the same reason you don't come onto TFP and respond to posts with obsentity-laden rants instead of intelligently disagreeing with them.

It's about respecting the environment you're in, and if you don't like it, go somewhere else.

It's not about restricting speech. The Suprime Court has made it clear than while the content of political speech cannot be restricted, the time and manner can. If you feel that Mexico or Canada or some other country does something better than the US, you can write it on a flier or post it on your blog or explain it on TFP.

But don't fly a foreign flag over the US flag.

Cynthetiq · 10-05-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Seriously, what the fuck is happening to our country? A Norwegian flag is flown above a US flag down the road from me. I don't see the flocking of indignant neighbors and media over that positioning of those flags.

Let's be real here. This is about skin color and nothing more.

I don't think so. There was a store run by Jewish people in the Lower East Side. They had put out a flag post 9/11 that over time became tattered shreds of a flag to the point it was unrecognizable. A number of us called and sent letters asking the owner to remove the flag as it was a disgrace. I offered to even replace the flag with a new one from my own pocket including the cost of installing it.

Eventually after a few months the proprietor took the tattered rags down and did not replace the flag.

If you let me know were the norwegian flag is flying above the american flag, I'd be happy to send letters and phone calls to the proprietor. Had I known of this issue I would have sent letters and phone calls as well.

MrTia · 10-05-2007, 07:08 AM

is this acceptable? they seem to be on the same height but the mcdonalds flag is bigger.

roachboy · 10-05-2007, 07:14 AM

i dont know, mrtia: i see two flags next to each other that are redundant. one is a version of the other.

btw i think elphaba is right.

10-03-2007, 07:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	It's kind of a silly law, but it's a law nonetheless. However, that doesn't make vigilanteism cool. It's not. He should have called the cops. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

10-03-2007, 08:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	But the cops aren't going to arrest someone for flying the flag improperly... seriously what would the police do? I think that it is unfortunate that people have to take such bold steps to prove a point because just calling the local officials won't garner much action. Although there was a gas station owner who flew 100s of flags, and that did get the rankles of the local government up. Some other obscure law... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-03-2007, 09:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Ignorance of the law is no pass. At the same time I don't equate flying flags as anything felonious or to be worried about. I don't know I think the general TFP statement will obviously be the old man is some cranked out uber conservative neo-con nationalist facist (insert big word and psychological profile word here). Maybe he is. I imagine this has a lot to do with the illegal immigration issue. I don't knock some old school veteran getting pissed when he sees his flag being insulted: remember he clearly knew whats what in the situation, even giving the store owner the benefit of the doubt. I don't get it, mainly how the TFP responds. People here are so quick to get down on the conservative type if they don't see problems or respond to outrage with certain issues. I don't see what makes this guy so wrong, or other Americans who hold the same beliefs. I mostly wish that the moral/political relativism went both ways sometimes. Also its funny, the headline "Veteran removes ILLEGAL Mexican flag". People in this country are allowed to make citizens arrest as far as I rememer. Since nothing was being done grossly criminal, I really see nothing wrong, so long as the old guy didn't threaten people directly with the knife while removing. Let him pay some joke ass fee, I think it is a matter of principle. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 10-03-2007 at 09:18 PM..

10-04-2007, 05:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	Did he approach the store owner in a civil manner before taking down the flag? __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

10-04-2007, 05:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	Flying a flag is a great responsibility. I don't know what the U.S. regulations are, but there are some definite rules about how to display the Canadian flag and it is reasonable to assume that some of these rules are common among nations. First, of course, is as BOR and others mention, is that the flag of the sovereign nation has pride of place. Always. There are others, such as the flag must be kept in good condition - i.e. it is disrespectful and even illegal to fly a tattered and worn flag (unless you are in desperate circumstances, such as when there are bullets flying). You are not supposed to fly a Canadian flag during extreme weather conditions or at night. No doubt there are others. This storeowner can show solidarity towards his fellow Hispanics by flying a flag. His mistake was in flying it improperly, and quite probably, in the face of repeated requests to correct his display. Some personal rights are over-ridden from time to time. I won't equate a veteran removing a flag to a person smashing a car window to save an animal during a hot day, but there are some parallels. If the veteran is left alone, and someone supplies the storeowner with another flag which he flys properly, then the whole situation will resolve quietly. __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

10-04-2007, 01:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Throughout history thousands of people have died keeping old Glory flying high and proud and above all else. No wonder the old veteran was so disgusted. It's very possible he has witnessed people die while trying to keep that flag flying high. To see your flag flying underneath another should horrify every single American. For the store owner so say he didn't know it was illegal is bullshit. No doubt he had to have received at least a few calls from citizens informing him if they took the time to call the police. If he was truly an American citizen then the thought of another flag flying above his adopted country's flag should horrify him too. It's not ok to burn our flag. It's not ok to fly another above it. At the very minimum to do either is showing a huge disrespect for all our men and women that who have given their life to keep it flying. I personally feel it's a treasonous act to fly another flag above the Stars and Stripes and should be punishable as such.

10-04-2007, 02:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
MrTia Tilted	i dont get it. should everyone in every country freak out if they see their flag flying under someone else's flag? or is the USA the only country that merits always having their flag on top? and if you believe so, are you really that befuddled when this right-wing fad has made America so deeply unpopular all around the world? it seems to me like if you really love your country and are secure with your national identity, you'd understand that the USA is a country in a nation of countries and wouldn't feel the need to demand that the USA invariably dominate other countries, even if it's just in a symbolic way like this.

10-04-2007, 05:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
MrTia Tilted	^that's fair, but it always seems like some folks take this stuff way too seriously. like how people freak out over all these trumped up stories of demonstrators burning the flag. they're pinheads to do that but to fly into a rage over it gives them too much credit and attention. it's a SYMBOL, yanno? what's important is preserving the freedoms it represents.

10-04-2007, 06:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
MrTia Tilted	didn't abby hoffman spark outrage back in the 60s wearing a suit made out of an american flag? and now we have... Click for picture appears the rules have changed, yeah? Last edited by ubertuber; 10-04-2007 at 07:06 PM.. Reason: no underagers on TFP

10-04-2007, 07:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
Racnad Crazy Location: Washington State	I'm no neo-con, but for some reason I have moderately strong feelings about the the proper way to handle & display flags, as well as saying the Pledge of Allegence (although I do leave out the "under God" phrase, which wasn't added until the 1950s). For example, there's a contraversy in the fairly liberal town I live in whether the city council should recite the Pledge of Allegence. I believe they should, just to make the point that right-wingers shouldn't have a monopoly on patriotism. But back to the topic: If he had reported this crime to the police, would they have done anything? I suspect that many police departments would not consider flag issues to be worth their time. Did he destroy the Mexican flag, or does he still have it? If he has it, he should return it. If he destroyed it, then he should re-imburse the shop owner for the replacement cost. No other penalty. And speaking of flags, I do NOT support laws against flag burning. If someone steals a flag and burns it, they can be charged with theft or vandalism. If they burn their own flag in a manner that does not violate laws against unsafe fires, that is covered by the First Ammendment.

10-04-2007, 08:50 AM	#16 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	As has been said, vigilantism is against the law. The shop was wrong for breaking the law, and the vet was wrong for breaking the law. Both parties are at fault. That said, I don't really have strong feelings about either side of this. The law in question is a bit nationalist, so I don't really personally care if it was done except that you don't just break a law you disagree with. You change the law. Likewise, I don't really care that this vet decided that this inoffensive thing was so amazingly horrible that he couldn't press 3 numbers on a phone. It wasn't a Vietnamese flag made out of human skin. It was jut a Mexican flag, the flag of our friendly neighbors. He acted like an idiot. BTW, why would it matter if he was a vet? Does the flag somehow mean more to him because of that fact? Or was it just sensationalism? Also, TFPers are generally a lot smarter than Diggers.

10-04-2007, 09:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
LazyBoy Insane Location: Memphis Area	I hate to say it....but if he wants to fly the Mexican flag above the American flag, I say he needs to take an American flag back with him to Mexico. Viva la USA -Will __________________ Life is nothing, everything.....and something in between...

10-04-2007, 10:08 AM	#20 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	personally, i dont care about the flag issue at all. it means almost nothing to me, and i find the fetishism of it to be bizarre. but i understand where it comes from and generally do not find myself motivated to comment too much about the opinions of others on this simply because i dont see anything constructive coming of it. it hardly seems worth the trouble. people get all pissy. that's nice. go for it. i really dont care. that said, i think that comrade brossert's action was idiotic---because i have no sympathy at all with the jingo-politics that apparently lay behind it. of course, he is free to engage in this action and following my own arguments in other threads about the right to political protest, i dont think he should be prosecuted for it. but as i find nationalism to be a form of collective mental disorder, i have no sympathy for the politics he espouses. but who knows, maybe this cat decided that staging a little agitprop might be a good career move. maybe he wants to get a conservative talkradio gig and figured this kind of thing worked for ollie north... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-04-2007, 11:19 AM	#21 (permalink)
JohnBua Banned	I think people should have boycotted the store. Nothing shows a message like interfering with your inflow of money.

10-04-2007, 12:04 PM	#23 (permalink)
nonplussed Tilted	I agree with Mr. Tia and Roachboy. It's hard to think of anything sillier that getting all worked up over a piece of cloth. If flying that Mexican flag over the US flag isn't an example of political speech then what is? And what is more important to our core values as a country than protecting political speech? Certainly not the deification of a piece of colored cloth.

10-04-2007, 04:06 PM	#25 (permalink)
Jetée The Reforms Location: Rarely, if ever, here or there, but always in transition	Icons and symbols of freedom seem to be taken too close to heart that it ensures that we end up losing that freedom we so proudly hail. Reformation is direly needed before this country careens off this rickety track we have since boarded. __________________ As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves. —Mohandas K. Gandhi

10-04-2007, 05:41 PM	#26 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Seriously, what the fuck is happening to our country? A Norwegian flag is flown above a US flag down the road from me. I don't see the flocking of indignant neighbors and media over that positioning of those flags. Let's be real here. This is about skin color and nothing more. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

10-04-2007, 05:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Yes because we all know Norwegian illegal immigration is a serious problem facing this country. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-04-2007, 05:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Maybe you can tell me what the Mexican flag has to do with Vietnam or whatever war this guy is a vet of.

10-04-2007, 05:48 PM	#29 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Maybe that this store owner was breaking the flag creedo and law of a sovereign nation? This old timer obviously knew the code and it po'd him. Perhaps he has a little bit too much love for old glory. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-04-2007, 09:03 PM	#31 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	How about you enlighten me then about the true immigration of white europeans to America? The fact is it is those immigrants who built this nation into what it is were the Micks, wops, Crouts, and Polocks. It is so false to even attempt to compare any European immigrant from the 19th century through the early 20th century to what Illegal mexican immigration today. The Mexicans are doing the same thing as the aforementioned white euros, seeking better fortune, but guess what the laws currently in place are so radically different and codified that yes their illegal immigration is the biggest source in this country, it is a problem, and all of it comes from south of the border. Different times and way different context. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 10-04-2007 at 09:16 PM..

10-04-2007, 09:17 PM	#33 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Because there aren't 10-20 million people from Norway here illegally for one? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-04-2007, 09:50 PM	#35 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Ummm no. Said legislation that makes the 10-20 Mexicans illegal now were put in place as a result of the European exodus. Tamny Hall and the Civil War worked out great for the US as a result of the Irish, nothing illegal about how they got here. They made their way through Ellis Island or whatever port by and large. Different times different context. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-05-2007, 02:31 AM	#36 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	you don't fly a foreign flag over an american flag, period. I'd have cut it down also. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

10-05-2007, 06:48 AM	#37 (permalink)
Racnad Crazy Location: Washington State	You don't fly foreign flags over the American Flag while in America for the same reason you don't come onto TFP and respond to posts with obsentity-laden rants instead of intelligently disagreeing with them. It's about respecting the environment you're in, and if you don't like it, go somewhere else. It's not about restricting speech. The Suprime Court has made it clear than while the content of political speech cannot be restricted, the time and manner can. If you feel that Mexico or Canada or some other country does something better than the US, you can write it on a flier or post it on your blog or explain it on TFP. But don't fly a foreign flag over the US flag.

10-05-2007, 07:08 AM	#39 (permalink)
MrTia Tilted	is this acceptable? they seem to be on the same height but the mcdonalds flag is bigger. __________________ The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity. -- Bruce Lee

10-05-2007, 07:14 AM	#40 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i dont know, mrtia: i see two flags next to each other that are redundant. one is a version of the other. btw i think elphaba is right. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite