Sun Tzu

I was debating this subject with some of my friends. It is in my view that’s the US is at a point the Electoral College should be done away with, relying on popular vote for determining the presidential candidate. We came close to seeing that with the last election.

There argument is that 5 main cities would basically control the outcome of the vote. I see it in terms a glass jar: of the 291,275,494 living in the US the eligible 212,688,715 people each put a vote in for the candidate of their choice. Whomever has the most votes wins. The one aspect I would personally change is that in order to vote a person has to pass the basic test one takes to be a citizen of this country: basic history, political understanding, etc.

With regards to the Electoral College consider what the founding fathers were trying to solve. They faced the difficult question of how to elect a president in a nation that:

• was composed of thirteen large and small States jealous of their own rights and powers and suspicious of any central national government
  
• contained only 4,000,000 people spread up and down a thousand miles of Atlantic seaboard barely connected by transportation or communication (so that national campaigns were impractical even if they had been thought desirable)
  
• believed, under the influence of such British political thinkers as Henry St John Bolingbroke, that political parties were mischievous if not downright evil

How, then, to choose a president without political parties, without national campaigns, and without upsetting the carefully designed balance between the presidency and the Congress on one hand and between the States and the federal government on the other?

The Constitutional Convention considered several possible methods of selecting a president.

• One idea was to have the Congress choose the president. This idea was rejected, however, because some felt that making such a choice would be too divisive an issue and leave too many hard feelings in the Congress. Others felt that such a procedure would invite unseemly political bargaining, corruption, and perhaps even interference from foreign powers. Still others felt that such an arrangement would upset the balance of power between the legislative and executive branches of the federal government.
  
• A second idea was to have the State legislatures select the president. This idea, too, was rejected out of fears that a president so beholden to the State legislatures might permit them to erode federal authority and thus undermine the whole idea of a federation.
  
• A third idea was to have the president elected by a direct popular vote. Direct election was rejected not because the Framers of the Constitution doubted public intelligence but rather because they feared that without sufficient information about candidates from outside their State, people would naturally vote for a "favorite son" from their own State or region. At worst, no president would emerge with a popular majority sufficient to govern the whole country. At best, the choice of president would always be decided by the largest, most populous States with little regard for the smaller ones.
  
• Finally, a so-called "Committee of Eleven" in the Constitutional Convention proposed an indirect election of the president through a College of Electors.

Should the electorial college stay or be discontinued?

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

BBtB

It should be discontinued but most people do not realize how hard that will be. I think if they started now they could have have a system in place by 2008 though. The thing about the popular vote is untill recently it was completly impossible. We do not have an accurate way to measure every single vote. (For examples of this see the 2000 election)


Sun Tzu: BTW that orange is IMPOSSIBLE to read with sandstorm.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

sykosystem

Since representing individual cities fairly regardless of how many people are in them has nothing to do with democracy, there is absolutely no reason to keep the electoral college. "One person, one vote" means just that. People are important in democracy, and if there is less diversity of opinion in a big city, so be it - those people need to be represented fairly.

The_Dude

trash the shit.

it's unfair. cuz of it, we dont have a democratically elected leader (so, what's the term for bush?)

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

George W Bush

I dont see anything wrong with the way things are.

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Liquor Dealer

I think you might call him a Republican elected leader! You might call him the President of the United States! You can also call him the next President of the United States! Or you can just call him George.

The Electoral College out lived it usefulness long ago. Modern communication has eliminated any need whatsoever for it. I don't understand the problems some see in eliminating it (other than ammending the Constitution) - all that would have to be changed is to eliminate the two words "electors for" the candidate and put the candidate's name on the ballot. It would be really nice if there were someway to eliminated the time differences or voting hours between the East Coast and Hawaii - or at least between the East and West Coasts. Maybe the networks learned a lesson on predicting final outcomes - that might help.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Sensei

The Electoral College is ridiculous. I'm a Politcal Science major and my professors, along with most others, think it's outdated. Other countries laugh at how a Daddy's Boy, monkey-eared, dumbass can become the 43d President of the United States while receiving fewer votes than his closest competitor.

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Slacking off with style since 1981.

reconmike

We do not live in a democracy, we live in a republic.
The mob does not rule here.
Take a look at this map, it is the vote by counties, I think the electorial college worked just as our founding fathers intended.



So the mass concentration of urban, welfare loving people can decide how this country is run. I really hope not, keep it the way it is.

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KillerYoda

Looks like a job for:

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Sparhawk

I don't see the problem with the Parliamentary system (aside from republicans currently controlling the legislature, of course).

I suppose my favorite part of it is Questions and Answers for the prime minister.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

reconmike

wow 5th grade humor, good answer.

spin the wheel Vanna

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Sparhawk

Since this thread's getting hijacked anyway, technically Vanna just pushes the little tiles, she never has to do anything physically demanding, like spinning the wheel.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

reconmike

I am terribly sorry, I lost track of my silly ass game shows.

I should have said,
top 3 answers to why liberals like to whine.....survey says......

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The_Dude

it's one person, one vote.

how come your vote counts more than mine?? dont you think that's unfair?

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

The_Dude

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
[B]I think you might call him a Republican elected leader!

correction - he was not elected into office, at least not by the people

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

KillerYoda

In the spirit of our hijacked thread...
You know, Ray Combs, one of the hosts of Family Feud, hung himself. Some of the more rabid conservatives should follow suit.

As far as the actual topic, the electoral college works when all the votes are actually counted.

__________________
"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

reconmike

I happen to live in a state that is blue on this map, my vote only counted to close the gap for my fellow hard working repubs. Between the non-working, welfare living, bus them to the polls junkies that voted for more of my tax dollars.

What I am saying is these people should not have more of a say than the people who happen to feed america.

Did you look at the map? Cities should not rule this country.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

The_Dude

so, only republicans are hard working?? haha, that's a generalization 10x.


and you're saying that "non-working, welfare living, bus them to the polls " should not be allowed to vote, but should be governed according to your vote? they're 2nd class citizens?

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

reconmike

If I have to pay to feed able body people who refuse to work because welfare is easier, than YES they are second class citizens,
and should not be able to vote.

I wish I could vote to do less and get money for nothing.
But I am not happy living off others.
the world doesnt owe me squat.

Back to the map, the highest areas of public assitance happen to be blue.
Would you care to elaborate as to why this is?

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

The_Dude

where exactly did u get the map from, i'd like to look.

and are you saying that everyone who receives a welfare check is too lazy to work?? again you're generalizing.

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Phaenx

I hear your vote counts more if you vote with a buddy.

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Sun Tzu

Whoa; another interesting poll would be if anyone thinks another US civil war could ever erupt again.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

rogue49

Nope.
I don't think so.
I like the fact that each state has a say in the matter.

People forget the FACT that this nation is made up of 50 states.
All with their own unique laws, character, agendas & needs.
If you got rid of the EC then you would have CA & NY dominating the rest of the country.
That's where politics would be focused, that's where the money would flow.
Everything else would be ignored.

Keep it the way it is, everyone gets their say
and the future president needs to pay attention to everyone,
and work for their vote.

Peetster

The United States was never intended to be a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic. It was also never intended to be one person, one vote. Only those with a vested interest in the continued success of the Republic could vote, and that ususally meant the head of each household. I think that people on welfare should not have a voice in determining the future of a government they are dependant on for income.

Macheath

But aren't the people who feed America also on welfare?

Sparhawk

Yes, but they call it 'subsidized farming'.

And single-family farms are very quickly disappearing across the country

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

geep

So it's the big business farms against the money laundering welfare recipients, eh?

I think the Electoral College provides a balance unforeseen by our forefathers. It is the great equalizer of American Politics. Throughout this thread there is no mention of the second leg of our awkward beast- the Congress. They are elected by popular vote and provide a check against the Presidency. Just because the vote didn't fall in your favor doesn't mean you have to change the rules of the game.

The_Dude

i still havent recevied a good answer to my question

how come your vote counts more than mine?

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Liquor Dealer

And what percent - generally, would you assume, of those that receive welfare checks, would take a job of any kind under any circumstance? I have several people a day come into my place asking for work! I have offered to hire several of them - you should see the shock go across their face when that happens - they don't want a job but have to apply to keep their dole coming.

I don't have any figures but I'd bet you big bucks that 80% of those on welfare would't get off their lazy butts and go to work for anyone. Check out the numbers who are claiming and drawing unemployment - then check out the help wanted pages in your local newspaper - then tell me there's a problem. When the legitimate help wanted ads are all gone - then we'll talk about unemployment.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Sparhawk

Oh yeah, Congress. Funny how we all forgot about them. Maybe it's because they're starting to look more and more like these:

<img src="http://oha.ci.alexandria.va.us/archaeology/images/ar-rubber-stamp.jpg">

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

geep

Beautiful! Thanks for the chuckle- I needed that.

I do disagree however on your assesment of congress. They sure whittled down GW's tax cut.

This is soooo true! I hired a guy once and told him he could start right away. He said "Great. Just let me go get my work shoes from my car" and never came back! I haved tried to hire many people who were on Gov't Assistance who've simply turned down the job I've offered them.

The simple answer is it doesn't. Your vote counts as one vote in your state. Your state then sends it's delegates to Washington for the final tally. The states were given their delegates by Congress based on the 2000 Census. If you think you've been given a raw deal- write your congressman.

Liquor Dealer

How come my vote counts more than yours - it probably didn't . Actually neither one of our votes probably made one iota of difference. I can explain why your vote may not have counted at all. Texas has 32 electors or votes in the electoral college. It has 5.95% of the voters in the US. There are 16,986,335 people in Texas (2000 Census). If the vote was split almost equally - one more vote for one candidate than the other, the candidate that got that one extra vote got everyone of Texas 32 electoral votes because it boils down to winner takes all. If yours was that one vote (in the example I gave) then your vote was the only vote in Texas that in this instance actually counted. If you were on the side that was one vote short - then yours, and none of those who voted for your candidates vote counted for anything except it figures into the popular vote which means absolutely positively nothing in the greater scheme of things.



You might check this out:

http://www.click2houston.com/sh/elec...05-195447.html

So Just What Is The Electoral College?
Remember The Electoral College From Social Studies? Here's A Refresher
As you may recall from social studies, when millions of Americans voted in the presidential election Tuesday, they were not actually voting for a candidate -- directly. The votes that count are the 270 cast by the members of the little-understood Electoral College.
It may have bored you back then -- and it's often viewed as an oddity -- but the low-profile ritual of the Electoral College is suddenly critically important. Because the race between George W. Bush and Al Gore is so close, the official voters of the Electoral College could conceivably pick a president that's not the same one chosen by a majority of the people.

Reason enough for a refresher course:

What it is: A group of representatives chosen by the voters of each state to elect the president and vice president. When Americans vote in a presidential election, they are technically picking representatives pledged to the candidates, not voting directly for the candidates themselves.

Who they are: Representatives are usually chosen by state committees or party conventions.

What they do: The electors meet on a day in December, often in their state capitals, and by custom or law vote for their party's choice for president and vice president.

How it's made up: Each state has as many votes in the Electoral College as the total of its senators and representatives in Congress.

How it works: In most cases, the candidate who wins the highest number of popular votes in a state gets all of that state's electoral votes.

By the numbers: A candidate needs 270 electoral votes out of 538 to win the presidency. Big states: California, 54 electoral votes; New York, 33; Texas, 32; Florida, 25; Pennsylvania, 23; Ohio, 21; Illinois, 22; Michigan, 18.

How it's changed: Before the emergence of two political parties, the candidate who came second in the electoral vote became vice president. Among other changes: the 23rd Amendment, ratified in 1961, enfranchised the District of Columbia, which has three electoral votes.

How it started: The process was chosen at the 1787 Constitutional Convention. The convention rejected the idea that Congress elect the president, on the grounds that he would be under the legislature's control, and rejected a proposal that citizens elect the president directly.

The ritual: In January, at a joint session in the House of Representatives, the president of the Senate opens the sealed certificates and one Democrat and one Republican from each house count the votes. The candidate getting a majority is declared elected.

The quirk: It is possible for a candidate to win the most electoral votes and become president even while losing the popular vote nationally. In 1824, 1876 and 1888, the winner of the popular vote lost the election.

What if there's a tie? In the event no candidate obtains a majority of electoral votes for president, the U.S. House of Representatives selects the president from among the top three contenders, with each state casting only one vote. One candidate must obtain a majority of votes to be elected. Similarly, if no one obtains an absolute majority for vice president, the U.S. Senate makes the selection from among the top two contenders for that office.



If you look at this map you will see that the majority of the country - area wise and state wise voted for George Bush - Gore carried basically only ther heavily populated metropolitan areas. The only place Gore even came close to winning this election - regardless of what Democrats would like to think, Bush kicked Gore's ass everywhere but in the electoral college - the only place that counts under today's laws.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Sparhawk

Bush kicked Gore's ass everywhere but the electoral college, where the tipping of one state would have made the election Gore's, and of course, the popular vote. Don't think I'd let you forget about that one...

I also detect a slight racial undertone in some of these posts (not necessarily yours, Liquor Dealer)...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

geep

So you believe that if a person is collecting welfare or jobless that they belong to a racial minority?

BBtB

I do not believe I would turn down free money either.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Darkblack

I used this in another thread also...just wanted to make my point yet again.
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http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...g20020123.shtml




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Seems to me a majority of the educators in this country are on the dumb welfare, non-working, lazy side of the vote.

I guess I am too.

I am waiting for someone to say black people shouldn't be aloud to vote anymore because that is basically what you are hinting at.

Everyone should have a vote. Everyone’s vote should be counted. Popular vote should choose the president. I don't care if you think all democrats are lazy, non-working, welfare living junkies, their vote counts as much as yours.

Sun Tzu

Why go through the dog and pony?

Has there ever been a true democracy?

Would converting to a true democracy from republic destroy America?

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Conclamo Ludus

Keep the electoral college. Its there so that candidates don't ONLY need to campaign in a few cities to win an election. They have to pander to the midwest just as well.

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I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

geep

Why is it that you think Welfare recipients= Black people? (this was stealthily ignored earlier in the thread) There are far more WHITE welfare recipients than all other races put together!

The_Dude

there was another post on tfp, about how bush was prepared to fight if he won the popular vote, but lost electoral college.

he was going to petition the electors to vote for him in the college, thus giving him the presidency.


that should tell you it's screwed up.

if some of these electors decide to switch their votes, we'd have a prez w/ a lot lesser votes than bush got.
and we wont be able to do shit, since it's constitutional

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal