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What's your meat footprint?
What's your meat footprint?
I average at least 1 or two tasty meat and/or dairy products a day. I need to be a better steward of my planet. Here's why... Did you know that the international livestock industry is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse-gas emissions as measured in carbon dioxide equivalent (link to UN FAO report)? This includes 9 percent of all CO2 emissions, 37 percent of methane, and 65 percent of nitrous oxide. In other words, eating meat causes more global warming than all human transportation combined. Why is the "meat crisis" not served up on the same menu as the other hot mainstream Global Warming entrés? It's hard to swallow, but shouldn't we be taking a stab at the largest single contributor to greenhouse emissions? We should at least bring it to the table, put it on the plate, and take it one bite at a time. Meat IS tasty. But sadly, it is much too tasty for "serious" global warming champions not to be hypocrates when it comes to delicious, tasty meat. Here is some of the shameful evidence... click to show Help our environmental leaders get back on track and address the "real" issues impacting our environment. Instead of carbon offsets, let's look at meat, poultry and dairy "offsets". Let's organize Hollywood and kick off a whole new series of hypocratic feel-good concerts centered around our concern for the meat crisis! How many more polar bears are you killing with your evil meat! So lets cut down on our "Meat Footprint" and save the polar bears! Also, watch this very important video, "An Inconvenient Meal". http://www.glennbeck.com/steakoutour.../meatprint.jpg Spread the word, not the steak sause! |
God, don't tell Al Gore. He'll blame breakfast steaks for ending the world.
... What if we just start eating humans, huh? Sounds like a plan! FOR EVERY ANIMAL YOU DON'T EAT, I'M GOING TO EAT THREE. |
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What time is dinner? |
Polar bears?
I was thinking about the cuter animals first. Panda, koala, etc. |
Guys, this is Tilted Politics. Either you're engaging in satire or personal attacks. Neither is acceptable here. If this thread is going to remain open, please make sure that your future posts abide by the TFP Politics Rules and Guidelines.
If you're interested in continuing this discussion, please do so in accordance with the rules. |
I've actually stopped eating red meat recently and my health has improved noticeably. I'm thinking about cutting pork, as well. Fish and poultry do add to the methane mess, but no where near as much as larger livestock. Beef is the biggest offender by leaps and bounds, and let's be totally honest, we all eat too much beef as it is. It's not that healthy, and it adds to global climate change.
Ranching: Deforestation Massive waste of fresh water Waste not only releases methane, but is a major pollutant (don't drink from the Mississippi) Pesticides and antibiotics used are a danger to humans Growth hormones cause uncharted problems for the animal and the human Quote:
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There is nothing new here, other than a veiled attempt (IMO) of the OP to minimize the impact of industrial (not just transportation) component of human activities that contribute to global warming.
The widespread consensus is that the anthropogenic impact on global warming results from both industrial and agricultural activities and that solutions should address both. |
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Reducing our emissions won't come in one swift swipe but instead in many small swipes. This is what happend to the Kyoto to many people were saying it doesn't solve the problem completely so it shouldn't be ratified..... so instead of doing something we are doing nothing. Hardly a good solution. |
Meat-related emissions, are, mostly, just natural emissions of any animal. In order for us to reduce meat-related emissions we would not only have to stop eating meat, but kill off all the cows, chickens, pigs, etc. and not allow any animals to repopulate.
Those animals also produce much of the fertilizer in this country. Furthermore, I have seen evidence that the vegetarian diet results in more animal deaths than does the carnivorous one. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97836&page=1 |
You know, I've avoided the politics section for a long time now, after it was merged with paranoia quite a while ago.
But when I saw this title in the recent posting list, I just had to look because I knew it would be coming sooner or later, though at least this form is amusing to me. The problem is that its easier to vilify 'big oil' over 'big farming'. I'm sure in the near future people will try. Oh and dc_dux you need to drop the consensus line, any serious scientist, even if they believe in the theory that human activity is resulting in a warming trend, wouldn't be caught dead using 'consensus' as validating their position. Science isn't decided by papers for vrs papers against and the winner being decided by a count. |
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The IPCC data is public and I see no faults with it whatsoever. The only people I really see arguing against it have little to no data, and they're usually making fallacious appeals to emotion. I mean who the fuck cares what Michael Crichton has to say about global climate change? |
This is the reason why my SO is a vegetarian; he doesn't want to contribute to factory farming and does not want to contribute to the environmental effects of meat farming in general. I don't disagree with his stance; rather, I think it's a good thing to be aware of when choosing food. Thus, I typically buy outside of the factory farming food chain.
However, it's easier for me to do so--I have the income now to be able to do it, and I have access to locally grown meat, eggs, and milk (in addition to the usual suspects of fruit and veg). The economics of our current food system often limit people's choices, and many people aren't willing to spend the extra dough to get locally grown meat, milk, and eggs. Factory-farmed meat is preposterously cheap by comparison. To me, this is an interesting issue that ties right into the idea of "where does your food come from." There is no doubt in my mind that the environmental impact of such factory farming would be limited if more people bought outside of the factory farming food chain, by frequenting farmers markets, greenmarkets, and food co-ops. Not only is your dollar more likely to go to local businesses, but it goes to support a more environmentally-friendly industry, while you still get to eat your meat. Yum, meat. There is actually a budding movement amongst former vegetarians to support animal and environmentally friendly meat farming. These former vegetarians, like myself, think that economically supporting these kind of farming movements is more important than just giving up meat altogether. The fact is, humans love meat. Meat tastes good. I'm not going to stop eating it, and neither are a lot of people, but we can choose a more positive alternative than taking part in factory farming. The other upside is you're less likely to be affected by E.coli recalls. :) |
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The consensus is in the fact that a broad cross-section of scientists from around the world who have studied global warming have reached a common conclusion regarding the impact of human activity....based on their individual and/or collective scientific arguments and valid scientific methodologies. Quote:
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The point of drawing a comparison of the livestock industry to transportation is a matter of perspective. I have never denied the impact on the environment from industrial, transportation, personal waste, agricultural, scientific (etc.). I have also NOT vilified livestock as a monoptic cause. Quote:
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otto...I apologize if I misunderstood your intent.
Perhaps you can see how the way you presented your concern in the opening post (op?) could be misinterpreted as satire or an attempt to downplay the impact of other human activities. IMO, your last comment: In perspective, the impact of livestock on the environment is fact. Not just meat, poultry and dairy consumption, but all the activities, supplies, feed, waste, infrastructure, transportation, etc. that support or enable the livestock industry represent the single largest classification as a world industry adversely impacting the environment. I'm trying to draw attention to the 500 lb. gorilla usually left out of the debate.said it much better than your first post. |
thanks dc_dux ... I must come off a little "tilted", but I truly mean well.
To all... I apologize for my brand of sarcasm. I write so quickly during short periods through the day, that I forget the humor may not be so apparent. I'm trying to get the flow at TFP... (didn't know what OP meant:shakehead: ). If deserve to get shot down, don't worry. I'm pretty thick skinned and I'll admit my mistakes. Thanks for all of your input. The give-and-take is really refreshing. |
I'm proud to eat red meat. I will not be guilted into or villified for enjoying something. I like imported meats and food products from around the world that can withstand the transportation across the oceans.
After seeing just how much food products around the world are being imported and exported this past year at the Fancy Food Show, it's a growing market not a shrinking one. So even if you stop eating meat, people in the US still want to have Tim Tams from Australia, strawberries from Latin American during the winter months, and inexpensive apple juice. Pass the A1 steak sauce please.... |
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We have a bit of a problem...
Without the industrialization of our food supply we cannot support the massive populations we now need to sustain. It's a bit of a conundrum. Cyn raises the interesting spectre of global trade. Global trade is a good thing when there is a level playing field (but that is a little off topic for this thread). |
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So Cyn... buying a blood diamond is OK in your books? You are not directly involved so your hands are clean?
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I think the real conundrum, and what's often the subject of my serious conversations, is how to drastically reduce the population of humans on the planet in the next 100 years. People on the whole are far too stupid to control themselves, and if the government tries to stop reproduction everyone's panties get in a bunch. Obviously killing people is out of the question (unless you're a neocon).
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Bad things happen as they do and have for millenium. If we were to follow this mentality that X is bad and contributes to Global warming, well then NONE of us should be on computers at all, since the chemical waste and by products from creating microprocessors is very bad for the environment, but here we are discussing such a phenomenon. I eat veal. I have no qualms for the animal being raised in a small box. Skogafoss on the other hand does. I'm happy to eat a nice veal chop or scallopini. You may think that I'm a bad person for doing so, and I'm okay with that. At some point you draw your own line and don't want to cross it. I know where mine is and won't allow it to be swayed by shame, guilt, or clever marketing. |
Right and wrong are both interchangeable and irrelevant on a long enough time line.
... Meat footprint: I guess my issue with this is... what the fuck are people supposed to eat? Between religion, morals, the environment, etc... what is a viable option? We're a disease to this planet. Fuck it, ya know? Let's just eat each other. What can I wake up in the morning and feel good about eating that isn't destroying the planet and against my moral philosophy and religion? Animal crackers? |
Lets see....
Energy production: Bad Food production: Bad What pillar of civilization will be killing the planet next? Say tooned to this channel. Oh btw, I had a double hamburger for dinner with bacon. Mmmmm bacon. |
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Politically, I'd bet there would be more of a negative impact on the world and people were we to quit eating what is only right to eat. Both in the terms of economics and world hunger. |
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... Seriously: What is safe to eat? |
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And to cynthetiq, who doesnt want to be "guilted"... No one is suggesting the most extremist actions that you seem to infer is required of you. As individuals, there are numerous ways that one can lessen their impact on the environment without negatively impacting their lifestyle: * walk when you can, dont get into your car for trips to the neighborhood store or to visit a friend nearby..it not only uses less fossil fuels, its healthierThere are so many other little things like these that can be done that may seem insignificant on the grand scale ....but small steps, if taken by millions, can start to make a big difference. |
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Done. Done. I live in a major metropolitan city. I walk to work. Our building recently upgraded our windows to energy efficient windows to the tune of several million dollars. So I do that and people still tell me crap like, but do you buy diamonds? do you not (insert fad du jour) because that's just what the planet needs ala buying carbon credits? The concensus of scientists have been wrong in the past, and will be wrong again in the future. If you don't accept that as a possibility you are more smug than what you are accusing ustwo of. |
Similarly, I think there's a new point, of contention with banning of meat. Scientifically speaking, we're omnivores. Although we are also adapted to eat vegetables, we also require meat, for the most part. There have always been a lot of deluded vegetarians out there, who think that just simply switching to vegetables is healthy. Most of the time, it is not--vegetarians often have to take supplements because they are off meat. This is not to take it to the extreme, eating lot's of meat has been linked to numerous diseases. Eating it in porportion, say three or four times a week, has not.
Honestly, I don't forsee any action done in this area with regards to global warming simply because of the natural order of things. Eating Meat is the natural thing to do--it's hard to argue against ideas of natural order--especially seemingly basic ones. Pragmatically imagine how many natural order debates have come up against non-traditional relationships (homosexual, etc.) Now imagine trying to go up against the meat, with the "it's just natural" clout behind this. I really think this is more related to overpopulation. Most people have issues with how the meat gets to the table, which has been reduced to very poor practices due to neccessities of feeding large populations. I'm also a bit confused about humane meat farming--it seems very hypocritical to me. When something ends in killing the animal, is there any humane part of the process? Don't worry bambi, I'll kill you in your sleep. |
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I accept that the current consensus of the global warming scientific community may be proven wrong at some point in the future. If we do nothing until such time, the environment suffers..... If we do something in the way of policies that support both economic and environmental sustainability and a new consensus emerges, the environment is still better off... So tell me, what do we gain by waiting to see if a new consensus might be around the corner...in two years, 10 years, 50 years...or not? |
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If we were to be doing all that we can, we would not be able to have this discussion because the computers we're using does alot of waste and damage to the environment. From shipping to creation of boards and mircochips, there's nothing there that's locally grown. Should I be tithing my salary into carbon credits because it is the new thing to do as a "socially responsible" person? I'm tired of these fringe groups continuing to demonize and vilify behaviors that a great number are not even doing the least amount of effort. "I can't walk to work, it's too far," trumps their guilt or ability to do more. So what gains I provide, they do more than negate. We do lots of conservation and reduce emissions, Mt. Pinotubo erupts and any gains from conservation are removed. Again, I'm not telling people from the highest mountains that they should eat meat or not conserve energy, but to vilify and guilt those that do enjoy eating meat and driving is patently absurd. |
I dont think I vilified anyone and again, you're talking extremes with examples like using computers and tithing your salary into carbon credits.
And you really didnt address the downside of taking some broad policy action versus doing nothing but waiting for a new consensus that might or might not emerge I'm talking about policies that can be implemented that support both economic and environmental sustainability. The CO2 emissions law that passed in California last year is, IMO, a good model. It requires the reduction of iemissions of greenhouse gases (primarily from utilities and other industries) to 1990 levels by the year 2020 and it addresses the potential economic impact in reaching that goal. (Forbes article on the Cali law) Is that really worse than doing nothing? |
Sorry, I'm not a fan of California having grown up there.
The MTBE debate which I believe is just as much a bunch of horseshit. The whole Proposition 65 which does more to scare people into paralysis since it gets listed on everything from new cars to apartments. Quote:
Oh but they are eating fruits and vegetables, it must be better :rolleyes: |
Cancer shouldn't scare people, then. Interesting stance. Know anyone who's gotten cancer?
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I have no idea what Prop 65 is....I was refering to Cali's Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006 (pdf).
California, being the 6th or 7th largest economy in the world, is taking progressive action, balanced with economic interests. Please read the act, and analysis from both sides, including the Forbe article, before passing judgment: Quote:
Yet still, you havent made a convincing case for doing nothing. |
I'm not trying to make a convincing case of doing nothing. I'm not doing nothing. I'm doing those things that you've already mentioned. If doing more requires me to spend more time, resources, or money, I'm probably not interested in doing it. Especially if it's not mandatory for the rest of the people. Me saving and sacrificing money doesn't do much good if my wife goes out shopping and blows it all and then some. That is my point to this whole scrimp/save/sacrifice proposal, if not everyone is doing it and others are blowing it all and then some, seems pretty stupid that I sacrificed and scrimped.
Proposition 65 alerts and warns people that what they may be using may cause cancer in some fashion. Pretty progressive and forward thinking as the papers wrote when it was passed. As far as people who have cancer? yes, I was in California this past weekend visiting an aunt who is succumbing to breast cancer. It is probably the last time I will get to see her so coherent. I hope that it is not the case, but I do expect that there is the possibility that she will not make it before I return to California again. I met up with a neighbor who's wife died in July of breast cancer. I recently learned that my first girlfriend's mother passed away a few years ago due to cancer. I have lost about 2 other friends (that I can think of off the top of my head) to cancer. |
I dunno, I eat birds more than bovines.
Chicken/turkey I like tuna and other fish too. I've never liked pork or beef though really, and I have always hated steak. I mostly eat veggies more than any other type of food though. |
Cyn... my comment about the blood diamonds is in an effort to understand where you draw the line on personal responsibility.
I am not talking about guilt here. I am talking about where you stand in relation to your responsibility to others. I think you have already answered in your back and forth with DC. I agree with you though when you say you are unwilling to go beyond what you are already doing if nobody else is obliged to do so as well. I am, more or less like this myself. I worry this is what will ultimately destroy us all. |
I agree its frustrating to do more at a personal level when others dont.
The other component is what we can do as a nation in terms of better policies and practices. In the 70s, in response to the degradation of the environment that was all too evident (polluted lakes and streams, smog, open dumps...) we enacted the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act, Hazardous Waste Management Act, etc. Many industries (and conservatives) bitched and moaned about the cost or improper government interference in commerce, but I think we can conclude that our waterways are cleaner, our air is more breathable and no one sacrificed too much. If we accept that current industrial and agricultural practices contribute to global warming, what is wrong with taking these environmental laws a step further, like the new law in Cali or laws to require more sustainable agricultural practices? |
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People like myself or Crichton don't pull this out of their ass for no reason on little data. I'm going to guess I'm far more qualified and educated in understanding this sort of data then just about anyone on tfp, and BECAUSE of that data people like Crichton and myself have formed our opinion on human caused global warming. And since you started this Will, you don't even think an aircraft hit the pentagon, how can I take your interpretation of any 'data' seriously when it comes to something political? It always pisses you off when I bring this up, but you have a 20 page thread in paranoia as public record. You have described yourself as far left now, and my belief, and others, including the founder of Greenpeace think people like you are using the environment as a scare tactic to attempt to sway the general public into adopting far left political ideas. Quite frankly Will, you can't be trusted to be scientific in such debates. I don't have an axe to grind with society, I have a long term stake in the 'future' of the planet now that I have children, I am in fact impartial on the whole debate. If I thought my children would be living in some post global warming apocalyptic world that could be avoided I'd be the first fighting to change policy. You on the other hand live in a world of massive conspiracies and global injustice. You have the axe to grind, you want to see society change, and this is your tool. |
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As an aside to give you an idea just how absurd this can be from time to time: In my cooperative of 1600 housing units, we have to recycle. After 9/11 Bloomberg stopped the recycling requirement stating it was too costly for the city. It was recently restarted. To enforce compliance, there is a ratio of weight recycling:waste that is used to estimate what the recycling expectation is for the building. There is some forumula to come up with this number. Even if everyone recycles or doesn't buy products that constitute these recycleable materials, the city fines out building for not recycling. Also if they find any recycleable materials in the refuse, again we are cited. To make sure we don't get cited we pay a union man (he's got a good contract getting guaranteed 3%/4%/4% raises for three years) to pick through the garbage to make sure there are no recycleables in the trash. Where I used to bring the recycleables downstairs to the designated location, I no longer bring my recycleables downstairs and I put them in the chute since I know that someone is being paid specifically to pick through the garbage. I'm paying for someone to do that work, he should have some work to do. |
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More than that, I'm stunned that in the last 4.5 years you haven't figured out the difference between discussing issues and discussing people. It's really not that difficult. What possible gain do you get from trying to diminish Will's status in this argument? If you're going to take down scientists who believe in global warming one at a time in this fashion, you'll be stuck here for a while. |
this is a bewildering thread.
first off, i dont understand what is going on with cynthetiq's posts about eating red meat. where are they coming from? who are these Perscuting Others who cause you to get so defensive about your dietary choices? maybe one reason this thread tripped this particular wire is that it is framed so badly as to make coherent discussion nearly impossible. the problem is that it raises questions concerning industrial farming as over against--well nothing, actually. eating meat only comes up in the context of some tedious sophistry concerning global warming. and that makes no sense either. this is one of the few threads in which crompsin's tactic of lobbing goofball quips instead of bothering to construct arguments seems appropriate to the content of the op. you have a host of problems with arise from industrial farming practices. researching them is easy peasy---you'd think that if you are going to bring this matter up that you'd do at least a little basic research. for example: the question of whether one "should" eat meat at all is only one way of thinking about this. you could also juxtapose industrial farming to sustainable, smaller-scale farming, and decide that the problems industrial practices raise can be addressed at the level of consumption by purchasing locally produced, sustainably grown meat and vegetables. you could argue for the latter on the basis of health and on the basis of taste, and on the basis of environmental concerns (monocropping vs. diverse cropping, reliance on chemicals to replentish soil as a result of monocropping vs. other more rational types of field rotation, etc) in other words, if you do actual research and come to be critical of industrial farming practices, the alternative is NOT simply "dont eat meat at all" but every bit as much "change the types of meat you buy." this is an indication of the way in which a poorly framed op can open onto ay number of red herring arguments, particularly when the op itself is little more than a red herring itself. within this, charlatan raises an important question concerning the relation of sustainable practices to scale. you see this debate all over the place--look at john mackey's blog on the whole foods website for a very interesting debate between mackey (ceo of whole foods) and michael pollan (who wrote "the omnivores dilemma") on this. it is an important question. this thread has not done it justice at all. dietary disclosure: i am mostly a vegetarian but will eat meat on occasion. when i do, i prefer to know at least something about how it is produced as my committment is not so much to being vegetarian as it is to not eating industrial foods, not eating processed foods. |
Well, looks like deer hunting is still a viable option for great meat!
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CAUTION this reply may contain incoherent discussion!
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sample sarcastic response to intellectual drive-by click to show The "OP" was purposely sarcastic, but not veiled. The adverse impact on the environment by all aspects of the livestock industry is a significant issue by proportion, but is rarely discussed or addressed. I did not suggest that we all become vegetarians, discount the numerous other factors impacting the environment, nor question industrial farming. The UN link was included as a piece of background for the topic. The point of the "OP" was apparently simple (enough) and understood by the majority of responses. |
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The fact that global warming goes into politics itself speaks volumes for the real issue here. |
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The fact is that data and experts back global climate change and it's direct connection to human behavior. Suggesting otherwise is to suggest that you are more informed than people who are experts on the subject. That's asking too much trust in you and none in real, verifiable experts. |
K... let's keep this about meat and global warming.
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Besides radical population decrease and soon, there are options to help deal with the problem of methane emissions from cattle and livestock. I recall hearing on a local radio program that some farmers are using methane reclamation technologies in order to utilize the methane from cattle excretions to create free energy (which is so brilliant, I want to jump up and down and clap my hands) in order not only to power their farms but also entire neighborhoods, selling power back onto the grid. It's stuff like this that can drastically reduce the greenhouse effect humans are having AND that can reduce out dependance on fossil fuels.
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I like steak. It is yummy. I will continue to eat it, regardless of the source.
The chances of anyone changing my behavior are nil. Beef, pork and chicken are too yummy. Where's Supple Cow when we need her? |
I think that SC is busy eating some meat.
I still don't see a concensus when some of the same scientists have now flipped to not believing that humans are responsible for global warming. Quote:
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I've never tried being a vegetarian, but from what I've read and from people I know who have tried it, it's not for everyone. It is difficult to get all the protein & amino acids one needs from exclusively vegetable sources, and many people who try end up feeling less healthy, and then quit. This is supported by abundant evidence that the omnivore diet is the natural diet of humans. Ancient humans ate vegetables most of the time, and meat when they could.
My other objection is more personal. I've been a skinny guy most of my life, and a couple of years ago I started exercising & eating to delevelop more of a muscular athletic physique. This requires lots of protein, and not from soy. Very few vegetarians are the type of guy you see in the "hunk" calendars. The few guys who are most likely have the genetics to look that way without much deliberate effort. Ok, you may accuse me of wanting to melt the polar icecaps so I can have bigger biceps, but is that any worse than saying "beef and chicken are yummy?" As for global warming, I feel like I came here late for the debate, but I'll add this: The global warming debate is really several different questions meshed together: 1) Is there really a warming trend? 2) If so, are human activities a significant factor in the warming trend? 3) If a warming trend exists, is it harmful as a whole? All three questions should be considered separately, but they are usually not. |
Thank you Cynthetiq excellent links.
That second link is great, and I plan on adding to my reading list from it. I just finished "The Ancestors Tale" which I recommend for anyone interested in evolutionary biology at what I'd describe as an 'in depth basic level' and have been looking for a new book. Lots of possibilities from that last link :thumbsup: |
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As far as global warming, there are far too many facts and opinions being thrown from all directions for me to really be able to come to any conclusions. It really turns me off to the whole thing when scare tactics are used by either side regarding the issue. What I do know is that the Earth will do what it wants to do, regardless of humankind. Case in point, the mini-ice age just a few hundred years ago. |
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If you guys are going to try to cite "studies" to support your desire to ignore the science, at least cite ones that don't get rejected. And you might notice that both Marc Morano and Michael Asher are not exactly unbiased sources of information on this subject, since they both are desperate to ignore the fact that the paper was rejected. Critical thinking, anybody? :rolleyes: We can call this the "some guy said on the web" argument against global warming. It's a fun argument, because you can use it to prove whatever you want. For example, look, here's a list of scientists who doubt the truth of evolution: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...os/#presentsci And if you look around a bit, you'll see that the "here's a list of scientists" argument can be used to prove a lot of very interesting things, for example: HIV doesn't exist, the Holocaust never happened, the world is 6000 years old and created in 7 days. So guys, if you're going to be consistent, if you're going to deny global warming on that basis, then I'm afraid that commits you to accepting every crackpot idea that a "list of scientists" or "some guy on the web" ever endorsed. Or, maybe you should consider the possibility that you are more interested in confirming your biases than learning any science? |
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Which paper and what part. Before you compare us to holocaust deniers you should get more specific. I dont' think anyone is calling that 'proof', but I did get to add some potential books to my reading list from that so called worthless list. Of course those books, written by people in the field, are undoubtedly like holocaust deniers too. |
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And if any of them explain the relevance of those cute sunspot butterflies you posted on the other thread before vanishing, feel free to pass on your new insights in atmospheric physics. |
The article posted by Cynthetiq (one of the two links that Ustwo described as excellent), "Survey: Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory" by Klaus Martin Schulte, was rejected by the journal Energy and Environment. (link)
Schulte's article drew heavily from an earlier study by Benny Peiser, who self-published his paper on his own website after Science magazine had rejected it....after his work was criticized by a number of climate scientists, who said most of those 34 papers did not actually reject the IPCC consensus, Peiser later retracted his critique, saying only one of the 34 papers had actually rejected the IPCC position. (link) No consensus? There is consensus among the Academies of Science of the largest industrial nations in the world that "is it likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activity." (link) Where's the beef in the "no consensus" position? |
it doesnt seem possible for there to be a coherent conversation about global warming here. folk who do not like the idea of it are operating from quite a marginal position in the bigger world, and so you would think that the presentation of good, reliable systematic information would be important for their positions--but we dont get that--instead we get either bluster or sophistries. it'd be nice if, for once, something of the actual informational base for this marginal position--the one that prefers to imagine that there either is no phenomenon or that it is caused by arbirtary factors, not human activities and certainly not co2 emission levels. these hand waving moves in the direction of "the field"...these claims that "real scientists agree with me" dont cut it.
not only would it be nice to see something of the informational base, but it'd help as well for there to be some critical approach to authorship and/or funding and/or venue in which the material being cited appears. short of that, the anti-global warming position is not credible and its proponents simply spin their wheels.... if the basis for the view that there is no global warming is not rooted in data but rather in political committments (e.g. its part of being-conservative these days for some reaons--that comes first, information second) it'd be nice to be a bit forthcoming about that. short of this, there is no debate. there is often--as abve--not even a conversation--there is only the exchange of random aesthetic positions, on the order of "i like hip hop" followed by "i hate hip hop" and then nothing. lots and lots of nothing. given that it is the anti-global warming position that is decidedly in the minority, i think it incumbent on these folk to actually make thier case. this thread sure as hell aint doing it--but then again it has not happened here. for example, the reason i considered the op incoherent was that it presupposed linkages and cause-effect relations that are arbitrary outside of a certain political viewpoint. it is what they call a sophistry. the linkage to meat production --and by extension to dietary choices--was peculiar and the results so far array as a. i eat meat and do not accept global warming b. i eat meat and accept global warming c. i do not eat meat and accept global warming with the "i do not eat meat and do not accept global warming" remaining logically implied but not present so therefore potential. supplemented with: 1. i eat meat and am defensive about it 2. i eat meat and a militantly not defensive about it what the fuck why should i be defensive 3. i sometimes eat meat etc. why not ask about the correlation between the type of car you drive and your position on global warming, or your general political views and your position on global warming. or why not present an actual case for the anti-global warming position? or is there no such case, is it all just a matter decided a priori? |
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I don't live my life reading journal after journal to backup each and every opinion and thought. To answer where is the critical thinking? It's right here. I don't believe for a moment that in the big picture that the world is in any peril. There is too many different factors to take into effect from planetary wobble to solar flare activity. The idea that "is it likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activity." is equally an opinion that is mustered by self supporting evidence and facts found that support their opinions. |
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Do you really believe this? |
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then there is no debate on this topic. there is not even an actual conversation because conversation implies a give and take that isnt going to happen here: instead, we basically just repeating what we imagine we already know. so we have yet another instance of basic disagreement not over global warming, but over what constitutes political debate. at the same time---thanks for being up front about this. i am not sure that others would have been so. at least now the situation within which this kind of thread turns has been clarified to some extent, and one can choose to interact or not accordingly. |
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I try to take 10 minutes to google a source before I post it in order to verify, at least in my own mind, that it is credible. It doesnt take "a lifetime" nor does it require double or triple checking, but it does make the debate more honest and it results in less misinformation being brought into the discussion. A quick google of "Klaus Martin Schulte" may have given you second thoughts about posting the article.....or maybe not. |
Are you referring to Klaus Martin Schulte's ties to the oil industry? Or do you mean that he's an endocrinologist (Endocrinology is a branch of medicine dealing with disorders of the endocrine system and its specific secretions called hormones.)?
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The bottom line is that all lines of scientific evidence are in agreement and converging on the same conclusion. Ice cores, stable isotopes, reconstruction of past climate, controlled physical experiment, monitoring of plant communities, of snow/ice cover, of extreme events, of global and regional temperatures, of ocean currents and temperatures, of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, models based on physics, etc. are all telling us the same story. That's what "consensus" means, and that's where there is no symmetry between the two sides. If you disagree, then feel free to bring up a line of scientific evidence that contradicts the consensus. |
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At one point the greatest minds of science thought the world was flat and that the heavens revolved around the earth. There was a consensus back then, they had evidence that proved their points. dc: I do normally try to check sources as best as I can, but again, 10 minutes for each thread/post or even citation is a considerable amount of time. If I was to do the same for a single host post it can cost me almost an hour. If you don't think that the case, great, I am glad that you do have the time. I try to when I can, and cannot all the time. ---- upon rethinking what I have posted here I thought to clarify this a bit more I don't reject that humans have an affect on the current state. I am however rejecting flat out that humans have CAUSED the current state. |
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“I can just point to the fact that people can get cancer naturally. It happens WITHOUT swallowing uranium” “I can just point to the fact that people die all the time. It happens WITHOUT getting decapitated” Why is it necessary to point out that (1) just because something occurred in nature once doesn't mean it can't possibly be dangerous to people; and (2) just because something can increase or decrease naturally doesn’t mean it can’t be increased 10x as fast by people? Quote:
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Temperatures for Ice Ages and retreats haven't happened once, they have happened MULTIPLE times. Thus this idea right now where pregnant women are told to not eat raw fish or fish during pregancy is explained away with, "Why take the chance?" since there is no single study done that states that eating fish leads to birth defects with children. I'm not ignoring the entire corpus of modern science. It is within this realm and a few others that my own critical thinking has decided for me and my own lifestyle that the decision still rests within me to make choices. Maybe you want to have dittohead's around so that you can be condescending towards someone. I however am firm in my statement that this works for me and me alone. |
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Funny how the critical thinking vanishes sometimes, isn’t it? |
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Again, I'll state that I don't find that humans are responsible for causing global warming. The trends of Ice Ages and retreats show that they have been happening without human intervetion for millenia. Could humans be contributing to it? Sure, that could be LIKELY, but again, I don't think that humans are CAUSING it. Hey, I'm glad you are right. :rolleyes: So far you've not explained your critical thinking, and how you've arrived at your acceptance. You've just stated you accept it. Good job with the critical thinking! :thumbsup: As far as the continued harping on the dittohead portion, I already explained that I did not do the due diligence of looking at the author, the site of the original publishing, etc. etc. etc. I'm not sure what I was doing at that particular moment, but I again explained that I didn't have the time. Again, you'd like to continue to be condescending towards someone who is still posting and responding to you, you have that right. But what inadvertently happens is that the person tends to get tired of such discussion, and no longer posts which I believe is why the politics posting community has thinned out to where it is now. |
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As far as personal choices go, you could be posting with your blackberry cruising through the badlands at 120 MPH with the AC on max in your 2008 Hummer, a buffalo rump taco on your lap, and, hey, it changes absolutely nothing I’ve said in this thread. Quote:
So now you claim that you don’t ignore the science, and condescendingly roll your eyes at my inference that you do. Sorry, but I tend to take the view that actions speak louder than words. Quote:
I notice that you still haven’t provided any evidence of your claim that scientists in 20 countries for the past 20 years all happen to have the same ideological bias. Can I assume then that there isn’t a shred? Quote:
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Is it better to your acceptance if I stated clearly for you that I withdraw that assertion of the post? because if it helps you I'm all for that. I with the assertion in post #53 that there is consensus for global warming. Does that warm your the cockels of your heart?? |
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Here's what would warm the cockles of my heart: if you're interested, spend more time outside than usual. Pay more attention to the changing of the seasons. Think about what "responsible" means in a wider sense. Imagine what opinion your grandchildren will have of you and what you've done when they're your age. And anything you hear about climate change from anybody (including me): if it's not replicated twice in peer-reviewed publications, assume it's complete bullshit and the messenger thinks you're a fool. Feel free to quote me on that. |
I try not to eat meals that something hasn't died for.
No, really. Contrary to popular belief we are actually omnivores, and I for one like to celebrate that every day. Note: I buy locally grown chicken, beef, and pork and hunt my own deer, elk, and game-fowl. I don't know if this figures in the CO2 terror, and I don't really care. I have that part covered. I mention it because I feel that more consumption should be of locally produced goods rather than the pre-packaged, pre-processed crap that we are being force fed these days. |
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I do know that in the 70's I was being preached to that there was cooling and another Ice Age was coming, suddenly it's the 90s and it's warming. I've lived in California and the strange temperatures of El Nino and La Nina are nothing new to me. I see it as cycles of the earth and nothing more. You may with to call it global warming, and your version of critical thinking brings you to that point of accepting what you've read. My version sees that there is a much bigger picture and we're infinitely small in the scheme of things. I do own a small compact car which I drive less than 8,000 miles a year. It is 6 year old car with just over 35,000 miles on it. I moved from a city where I drove that within 1 year to the one I live in now. I live in a community that provides it's own power for cheaper than what it costs for ConEdison to produce using our own boiler room and steam production. We've considered even providing our our generators so that we provide our own electricty and can be 100% off the grid and self sustaining. Most of my electronics and durable goods are Energy Star efficient. My windows are energy efficient double paned double hung windows. I live in a small 800 sq. ft 1 bedroom apartment with my wife. Chances are very good that I won't have grandchildren because I don't plan on having children so this "think of the children" stuff is a bunch of emotional tugging on the heartstrings bullshit. WTF do you mean about "responsible" in a wider sense? I'm irresponsible because I like to eat meat, remember that's what this thread is about? Or I'm irresponsible because I don't subscribe to your point of view? Please explain how I'm irresponsible. So what are you trying to tell me I need to do more here? Because that's what I'm getting from these kinds of threads and these kinds of articles. That each time something new turns around that I'm now required to make ever more another sacrifice when there are many other people who don't drive in less than an SUV, who cannot walk to work, who drive to the grocery store, who live in huge houses... |
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In my opinion, what you need to do is to open your mind to the science, and to think more critically. If you do, then you will reject every argument that you made above that the current warming is part of a natural cycle and that we have no significant effect on it. Each of your arguments is easy to reject. ENSO is a short-lived cycle that can't explain the longer-term rise in temperature over the last 30 years. The current rise can't be explained by the causes of the ice age interglacials, we're in a cooling period in the ice-age cycle (a downward phase of the Milankovitch cycle in the Northern Hemisphere), not a warming period: the natural warming period ended 10,000 years ago. And human beings are not insignificant, we know from physical experiments that certain gases trap radiation very efficiently and we know from the past ice-age cycles that small increases in greenhouse gases in the earth's atmosphere cause immediate increases in temperature. In fact it's easy to predict how much our emissions will raise the temperature; predictions made in the late 1980s have turned out to be very accurate. We also know that increases at the rate that we are currently experiencing (10x the average rate in past ice ages) can be dangerous, because they have caused mass extinctions in the fossil record. What you do in your personal life is largely irrelevant (despite its effect on the cockles of my heart). Your personal actions can't have a measurable effect on any global atmospheric phenomenon. Some people, however, simply feel better about themselves and their lives if they know that they're not part of the problem. Your mileage may vary. |
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So again, what are we talking about here? The only thing I'm distilling from your posts is that I don't subscribe to the global warming theory and that I'm not "critically thinking" to accept it. And you've still not stated where I'm irresponsible. Where's that fit into your points? I'm irresponsible because I don't agree with the rest of the group? |
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That's one example of many. Being a critical thinker does not mean you accept any group thinking. However, it does certainly imply being aware of the scientific evidence. You, obviously, are not. Quote:
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I did NOT state that El Nino was responsible for global warming, I cited it to state that there are small trends withing the cycles. Trends that people did not understand nor get for many decades and still don't really understand just what it means within the larger scope of things. They think they understand it. El Nino is not just about sea currents, the sea temperature CHANGES and increases thus fish in the souther part of Baja California and Mexico are suddenly found much more north than their normal habitat. I'm sorry, you're stating that I'm not aware of the scientific items. I admit I'm not a scientist nor propose to be one, but where do I state I don't know or am not aware of the scientific evidence. I again have stated I don't doubt that human factors contribute to what is the larger trend. I just don't agree that humans are the cause of the trend. Which is what I read when someone touts things stating, "CO2 emissions from human beings cause global warming." Asking me to reflect on responsiblity in a wider context express in some fashion that I'm irresponsible, or there is some irresonsible action going on. |
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It is beyond question that human activities result in in emissions of greenhouse gases: C02 - from fossil fuels, heating and cooling, deforestation, etc. Methane - from agricultural and landfill practices, N2O - from fertilizers. And it is beyond question that there have been significant increases in these greenhouse gases as a result of these human activities. It is the global warming deniers who misrepresent the science and falsely claim, like you did, that the consensus scientific hypothesis is that human activities CAUSE global warming. BUt since you agree that human activities contribute to climate change and you support governmental policies and laws to address these human activities, I think we're on the same page :) |
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If you think there’s some detail that needs correcting in the current consensus, then write a paper defending your position, and get it published. You don’t have to be a practicing scientist to do that, but you do have to be informed and be able to think critically. You of course can’t do it, so instead you compare modern scientists to people who thought the earth was flat. It is rather comically ironic, you know. Quote:
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Its just moving heat right? |
I've been avoiding this thread because it has the phrase "meat footprint" in the title, and i am mostly still an adolescent.
That being said, we get our meat with all the hippy accoutrements, i.e. free range, antibiotic free, locally produced, etc. That's mainly because we live in a city with a large concentration of places to by such meats. I don't know how that effects my meat footprint, and i guess i don't really care. I do like me some hotdogs, though, i think it's hotdogs for breakfast today. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
As I understand it, currents do play a notable role in the regulation of climate. As such, if currents change in just such a way in a big enough way, they can effect climate.
http://earth.usc.edu/~stott/Catalina/Oceans.html |
Meat footprint?
(whips it out on the desk) I bet it fills a 10.5 Regular. |
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The variables involved are far more convoluted than heat in, heat retained, heat out. Its these variables which we don't understand that makes ALL of the current models of 'future' warming not work for any known past conditions. Since all the evidence for said human caused warming is based on said obviously flawed models, I hope its understandable why I'm skeptical if there is a significant affect. Its not my only reservations with the theory, but its the one big glaring issue which should be self evident. |
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Of course the oceans have a profound affect on global climate, and have been doing so for the last 3 billion years. But they do so by transferring heat, not by creating heat. The movement per se of currents causes no change in net heat balance for the planet. Currents certainly do respond to global warming, by circulating that extra heat and transferring it toward the poles, but current movement, in and of itself, does not cause global warming.
And this of course explains why models have been accurately predicting the rate of increase in mean global temperature for the last 20 years. That’s because local variations in air and water currents have virtually no effect on the global heat balance. Citing El Nino as an excuse to deny the consensus is like saying we can’t be sure that Miami’s not going to have a white Christmas this year, because we can’t exactly predict the daily temperature variation. |
What's your family's Christmas Dinner carbon footprint looking like this season?
So what's your family's Christmas Dinner carbon footprint looking like this season? I'm counting on size 18 to 19 EEE.
I thought this was an interesting article from the UK... and a nice tie-back to the fact that the world meat and food industry (cumulative, as a whole ... see the OP) STILL has the single largest negative impact affecting climate change and the environment. Is anyone on TFP planning to change their Christmas dinner tradition based on this information? Did anyone notice if the meat-industry was a major speaking point at the recent UN Global Warming conference in Bali? It's still the 900 lb. gorrilla that nobody wants to seriously talk about. From BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/7137504.stm Quote:
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And then they came for the cranberries.....
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Are you talking about how climate change has ruined the cranberry crop this year?
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The topic just doesn't seem to get the kind of traction that carbon credits, fluorescent light bulbs, and hybrid cars (all of which have little overall impact on reducing anything substantial) get. Transportation, industry, and oil is always the focus. However this topic has a bigger footprint than all combined transportation. ...I'm just sayin'... especially if anyone REALLY takes global warming seriously and not just showing up for the hors devours and open bar. |
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Heh, you know what's kinda funny? If the globe warms up well above average, Canada will have thousands more hectares of arable land and an insane amount of fresh water. We should be okay. We could even eat more beef. |
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