Willravel

Ziadel, dksuddeth, et all, if you'd like to take your guns down there, I'll back you up.

This is a bit of a travesty, and this should be punishable by jail time.

ProfessorMayhem

Welcome to the Texas legislature.

When it's good it's tolerable, when it's bad it's fucking legendary.

Rekna

Wow this needs to be stopped. They should install fingerprint readers on the voting machines.

Seaver

This is a travesty to those who don't understand what's going on.

Rep. Elkins who's mentioned in there... yeah I was working for him when this happened. So lets clear up these questions.

"Why are they casting votes?"

Because many Reps are involved in many different Councils. In our Constitution the House/Senate is only in session every other year from Jan. to May 28th. On top of that it is illegal for the state to go into debt, which means more than half of that time is spent on HB 1... the budget for the next two years. So the house by the second half goes from 7am to 2am, very often not allowing breaks for lunch or even bathrooms. So what do you do? You get your trusted friends to vote for you.

If you're in a Council you have a duty to attend those meetings, where knowledgable people, and state legal experts explain in detail the ramifications of the bill and the wording. They are then in charge of amending it to make it legal, or to clarify the terms. This takes weeks sometimes, and runs at the exact same time as votes/discussions on the floor for bills that have passed out of council.

"They're casting multiple votes! That's Fraud!"

It's not like these people are sneaking votes away from the other party. It's not a system of press the button 4 times you get 4 votes, so this video of the two votes for the one absent Rep is nothing but a sham-job of smearing.

It's the system, it's our Constitution, they work within the realm of it. This is only fraud for those who know nothing about the Texas Legislature.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

JumpinJesus

I like this system. This means I can go to the polls and vote for all my neighbors who are too busy to get there, right?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

albania

It's like a game of musical chairs... you know with twice as many chairs as people. Makes everyone feel nice.

Seaver

Not quite Jesus, it's an honor system which is backed up by Congressional Justice. A Rep. can lose his spot on any/all of his councils if he puts in a vote for a fellow Rep. for which it was not previously agreed upon, or votes opposite of the deal based on ethical and moral grounds.

There is just no way for the 2nd largest state in size and population to run within the bounds of our Congressional system an effective government without this method. How do you propose an elected Rep. give the required time and attention to experts in various fields, legal and practical, in order to fully understand and pass/end bills while paying the required time and attention to the 100+ bill votes on the floor?

It's impossible, the only way other states do it is by a full (or near full) time government. 19 out of 24 months it is illegal for the Reps. to gather and discuss policy/bills/etc in State offices in Texas.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

JumpinJesus

Yeah, but as long as I vote for who my neighbor wanted to vote for, then it's the same, right? I mean, don't we all follow the same laws?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

dksuddeth

somebody took my tin foil hat, go figure.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Rekna

Seaver here is an idea.... how about they work more than once every 2 years....

1010011010

Have fewer and/or simpler bills.

From the way you describe the system, it seems to be designed to make cumbersome bureaucracy difficult to maintain and to force legislators to focus on subjects that are important and relevant to the valid concerns of government.

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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

Seaver

It was written purposefully that way. The Reps. after the Civil War foresaw a rising beast of Government growth, and this way they figured was the only way to prevent the government from growing too large or encompassing too much power over the individual.

How do you propose we do that? It is the right of any Rep., state/local/federal to propose bills for consideration. We already have a system of Councils which 9 members research and foster debates on Bills, and then vote on them on whether or not they get considered on the floor. Unfortunately other bills get voted on during these times.

Seriously guys these Reps work from 7am to 3am and many of the days they don't even get a lunch break. How much do they get reimbursed? A whopping 2,800 per year. The sole reason to become a Rep in the state legislature is respect and the honor to be there. They give up their jobs for 5 whole months, they can't see their family or friends, and work 12-15 hour days and then come back and get accused of fraud and conspiracy on television by people who know nothing about the system of government they live in.

If you want to raise a fit look at the federal level where soldier funding bills get tacked on with pig subsidies and crap like that because no one can then vote against it or they're against funding the troops (both sides do this too).

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

ratbastid

Seaver, is there any sort of check to make sure that the alleged fraud isn't actually happening? What happens if I come back from my conference meeting to find that my deskmate has voted against my wishes?

From all appearances--based only on the video--it looks like vote time is a total vote-grabbing feeding frenzy, but I'm willing to believe that there's a fair system at play.

Are you actually telling me that the cross-party button poking that the video caught was actually a Republican rep doing his Democrat colleague a favor and voting the way the Dem requested, regardless of how his party wants the outcome of the vote to go? If so, the Texas Legislature is a paragon of integrity.

dc_dux

seaver....using the fact that the TX legislature meets only every other year seems a bit of a stretch to me to excuse the de facto proxy voting on the floor which is clearly a violation of it own rules and procedures.

Most state legislatures are part time and have 90-120 day sessions, and like the TX legislature (and the US Congress) conduct committee/council hearing simultaneously with having floor votes. There is no reason why a TX legislator cant leave a committee/council meeting for 10 minutes to go to the floor and vote.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Rekna

Voting forsomeone else is also against Texas state law. So they need to change one of the laws. This idea that there is so much work to do that the only way to get it done is to give them less time is a very flawed idea. Is Texas the only state that meets once every 2 years?

I contend that giving less time so that they will get the important things done is a poor solution to the problem. First because a lot can happen in 2 years that requires the states attention... Second because it is crazy. Make laws that require a specific timeline. If your unwilling to do that move to a mobile voting system where reps can vote while in committee using their fingerprint. Having someone else vote for constituents that are not their own is absolutely a bad solution.

dc_dux

Voting in the legislature in TX (or any state) is not covered by state election laws but by the rules and procedures of the legislative body. And the rules of the Texas House are explicit but not very punitive:

Any member found guilty by the house of knowingly voting for another member on the voting machine shall be subject to discipline deemed appropriate by the house

TX is the only state that meets every other year, but most state legislatures are part-time and have short sessions in which they conduct alot of business where this practice does not appear to be so blatant.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Aladdin Sane

Seaver, you have done a good job of explaining why it is happening. I understand the necessity. The "news" report was trying to stir up controversy and that's what this is about.
They should change the rules because they are clearly violating them.
And yes, Republicans and Democrats trust each other enough to vote for one another.

The last thing we need is a legislature that meets more often.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Seaver

First off the vote was on a bill which was nothing more than posturing. It was on adding the new Genital Warts vaccine as required for public schools. Our Governor already used an executive order to make it mandatory, it was just a posturing vote to try to send the Gov. a message to let the legislature do it's job.

The penalty one faces for voting for someone else against their wishes is pretty harsh. (S)He is kicked out of all of the councils (s)he sits on, and faces being booted off the podium during any debate (Chair powers), which effectively makes him no more than an ass in a chair.

Thank you. Yes, there is partisanship here as well, but it's much less so. There are attempts to filibuster, and even one instance of a Dem portraying Rep's as racist if they don't reinstate the Robin Hood Tax (it's a LONG story), but it's not nearly so heated as the federal gov. Once again, I've pointed out the punishments that can befall a Rep. who votes for someone against their wishes, or votes incorrectly purposefully for someone else. One vote on a bill is not worth losing any respectability or power you have in the House.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

ratbastid

Okay, I'm willing to hold the news report as hackery.

Still, I'd prefer some system to allow legislators to multitask and cast votes from inside conference meetings. I'd really like to know that a legislator's vote represents their very own finger on their very own button...

Rekna

I'd also like to know my reps are making informed decisions and not rushed decisions. I'd also like to know that my reps are not making decisions under duress.... I still say it is a very bad system.

Willravel

Give me a break. Even if they're voting on lunch in the Legislature lunchroom, my representative is still to vote for me. If I elect a Democrat with a history of tackling socially liberal issues and a social-conservative Republican is voting on my behalf then the system is broken.

The news report specifically cited that a Republican was voting on behalf of a Democrat, and you can see two representatives rush to take a vote (Hanecock and Elkins?). Would they rush if they were voting the same? Of course not. Jesus, think about it.

Seaver

The system needs a lot of work, yes.

And they were rushing because there is a set time, 15sec I believe, that votes are given before time is up. If you don't vote within that time period then the vote is not counted.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

dc_dux

15 seconds to cast an electronic vote on the floor of the House in Tx?

Damn right, the system needs a lot of work. That's absurd under any circumstances.

In the US House of Reps, the time allowed for most electronic votes is 15 minutes.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

It sounds to me like Texas' legislature is constitutionally set up to be a broken mess...

Elphaba

Molly couldn't have said it better.

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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

uncle phil

i do so miss her op-ed pieces...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

1010011010

Perhaps if the legislators weren't using the right of every representative to introduce a bill to get in a pissing contest and posture, they wouldn't have to work 15 hour days?

Basically all you keep saying is that they're being irresponsible and introducing too many bills or bills on topics no one in the legislature knows anything about (in which case, what business do they have making law on it?).

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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

pan6467

I post because there is a HUGE discrepancy here, in a way.

DCDux shows us that the HOUSE determines the punishment (the tape also shows this). Thus, one would surmise that if the GOP controls the House and the vote is on something that is partisan and deemed to be close, and a GOP Rep votes along the party lines and in turn votes against how the Dem Rep would have.... the GOP House could just give a slap of the wrist. Say Seaver sits next to me he's a GOP. I, a Dem can't be there (or I step away to piss), it's a bill the Dem party dislikes, GOP loves. Seaver, decides to vote for it. I find out, complain, the GOP controlled House realizes that 1 vote could make a difference and says aw fucking well the votes are counted it's done. Then slaps Seaver on the wrist and tells him bad boy.

Also, how does one Rep prove how he wanted to vote? Again, let's say I sit next to Seaver and he is a very powerful GOP Rep. sitting on some key committees and I tell him to vote one way, then come back and file a complaint because "he voted the wrong way." Thus, he could lose all his power and just be "an ass in the chair" and my party congratulates me by next session moving me up in the power structure or supporting one of my bills.

* Then again if the bill is so important, why is not everyone there to vote for themselves.

Also, this not-so-bad partisanship must be a new thing for Texas, because one of Bush's selling points in '00 was that he was able to get the 2 parties to work together, something that was supposedly very, very hard to do.

Just too many what ifs and questions for this system in Texas to be ok. Perhaps Texas can work a bill through that states voting on bills will be done every Friday all debates will be done in the days previous and only voting will be done and it will be mandatory for each representative to vote for himself (or in emergency cases a certified aide from his staff) or he loses his vote on that bill.

Also, watching the tape it looks like people have more than 15 sec to vote. One guy is standing there talking to another looks over, then walks over and votes, then walks again to another table and votes.

You have a 15 sec limit you're not talking to people and walking over to vote. I find that extremely hard to believe.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"