One too many Fosters? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

tecoyah · 09-07-2007, 02:36 AM

Though I understand he was not drunk....I actually find myself wishing he was.

Quote:

US President George W. Bush today thanked "Austrian" Prime Minister John Howard, in front of a summit of business leaders, for being a kind OPEC host.

OPEC is the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

Mr Bush, who flew halfway around the world to be in Australia, not Austria, for the APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) summit of world leaders, took to the stage at the Sydney Opera House.

He thanked Mr Howard for his introduction and for being such a "kind host" for the OPEC summit.

"I mean APEC summit," he said.

"I've been invited to the OPEC summit next year. The APEC summit."

The faux pas brought laughter from his audience.

As if that was not enough though, Mr Bush also botched the host country's name, referring to Mr Howard's visit to Iraq in 2006 as a thank you to "the Austrian troops there".

Mr Bush also stumbled over his pronunciation of Jemaah Islamiah, the regional terror network, but had no trouble with its abbreviation - JI.

Upon finishing his speech, Mr Bush took the wrong way off-stage and, looking slightly perplexed, had to be redirected by Mr Howard to a centre-stage exit.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/newthre...newthread&f=38

mixedmedia · 09-07-2007, 02:41 AM

It is kind of funny that our President can't handle the same stupid shit that countless beauty pageant contestants pull off every year.

uncle phil · 09-07-2007, 03:07 AM

no "nuculer?"

aceventura3 · 09-07-2007, 07:32 AM

I find it interesting. Bush is perceived as a bumbling, unintelligent person, but on the other hand he has been able fool the world and specifically Congress pretty much getting everything he has asked for regarding a war, a war where everyone on the left believes was based on lies. Last night as I was channel surfing various news shows, some have already come to the conclusion that Bush is going to be responsible for again lying to the world and more specifically Congress regarding the progress or lack of progress in Iraq. I even heard that some believe that he had already made up his mind regarding his strategy and the September reporting was simply a rouse to gain more time, and that he has been playing a that game since our military occupation of Iraq.

So, I wonder, which is it? Is Bush a bumbling, unintelligent boob, or is he some kind of mastermind who masterfully manipulates those who disagree with what he wants?

The_Jazz · 09-07-2007, 07:34 AM

Ace, George W. Bush the man is not the Bush administration. People do things in his name constantly.

The man is bumbling. The administration is created the war. They are completely separate.

aceventura3 · 09-07-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Ace, George W. Bush the man is not the Bush administration. People do things in his name constantly.

The man is bumbling. The administration is created the war. They are completely separate.

Who is left from the beginning of his administration? Chaney ,Rove, Rice? Are the they the masterminds and Bush just the mouth piece?

mixedmedia · 09-07-2007, 08:57 AM

Every president is a mouthpiece to some extent. In think in our current administration this is particularly so.

And I'm not one to call GWB stupid. Bumbling, yes, but I don't think he's stupid.

The_Jazz · 09-07-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Who is left from the beginning of his administration? Chaney ,Rove, Rice? Are the they the masterminds and Bush just the mouth piece?

I don't see why the "who's left" question is relevant. Sure, folks are gone. The administration is a huge beast, and I think you're falling into the trap that many folks do. There are dozens of folks that make these important decisions with the complicity of the "faces" of the administration. Just like you can't blame just Bush for the war, you can't blame just Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rice. There are dozens of others.

And the conventional wisdom is that Bush has been a figurehead at times.

pig · 09-07-2007, 10:21 AM

not to mention the fact that just because someone isn't officially part of the administration that their phone doesn't work. i agree with mixed and jazz on this...i don't think bush is stupid, but i'd have to say rather inept. he leaves much to be desired in what i would like from a presidential candidate; ironically, it frequently seems that the very qualities which i dislike in him are those which resonate most strongly with voters. then again, our country is falling behind in education levels, but perhaps that's another story.

point being that much of what this administration has tried to pull off has been in the works in thinktanks for years...the guiding philosophy of this administration didn't materialize on a ranch down in texas or a frathouse at yale, or connetticutt, or wherever bush is really from.

and specifically to the op - things like this situation, or when he started rubbing merkel's shoulders a few years ago, or etc etc etc..why does the image of the idiot resonate so strongly with 'conservative' voters? i thought 'conservatives' believed that by hard work and education, you could raise yourself up. how do poor uneducated people consider themselves to be the same 'conservatives' that super-rich 'conservatives' are? it never ceases to amaze me. so having someone like bush is the natural choice. white collar, good family, old money....and the appearance of a farmer so stupid he'd be made fun of by the other farmers. sells like hotcakes!

Willravel · 09-07-2007, 10:29 AM

I hope he goes home to the United Arab Emirates on accident. And stays.

aceventura3 · 09-07-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

and specifically to the op - things like this situation, or when he started rubbing merkel's shoulders a few years ago, or etc etc etc..why does the image of the idiot resonate so strongly with 'conservative' voters?

I think it goes back to about 1939 and the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" staring James Stewart.

I think (speculation on my part - some have a problem with that) many modern Republican political leaders see the James Stewart characterization of an affable, sincere, boy scout, wanting to change the world in a naive way...Mr Smith...act is the key to gaining political power.

It has worked in many cases, and smart politicians know the power of a "Mr. Smith" persona even when it is not who they are. For example - The Nixon, and his Peaches speech (show, act, or whatever it was) and then you had Ford and even Ronald Reagan who had it nailed. Most Republican political leaders don't want to come across as too polished or too far removed from "Mr. Smith" values - if it is real or not. Savy voters know when it is real. I doubt Romney has a real shot at getting the nomination, he is too polished. On the other hand Thompson will be able to nail the "Mr. Smith" role to a tee, and has the most realistic shot at this time. I support Huckabee, who happens to be a real "Mr. Smith".

ratbastid · 09-07-2007, 12:27 PM

It's not just Republicans, ace. Barak Obama is textbook Mr Smith. People are attacking him on the thing you attack Mr Smith on--inexperience. But except for those already predisposed against him, that's a HUGE selling point.

Re the Australian gaffes: it could be worse. He could vomit on somebody...

aceventura3 · 09-07-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It's not just Republicans, ace. Barak Obama is textbook Mr Smith. People are attacking him on the thing you attack Mr Smith on--inexperience. But except for those already predisposed against him, that's a HUGE selling point.

I tend to agree that Obama is at this point a textbook "Mr. Smith" and he has that tall guy, Lincoln big ears and head thing from Illinois thing working, but I think he needs to distance himself from Hollywood if he wants heartland votes. Also I have not seen him doing "down home" stuff yet. You know, like Reagan on the ranch chopping wood, Clinton jogging to McDonald's for biggie sized fries, Chaney shooting his hunting buddies. All of that is great "Mr. Smith" stuff.

pig · 09-07-2007, 01:19 PM

sorry ace, i didn't mean the 'idiot' as in W being an idiot, i meant The Idiot, as in a theoretical form. it seems that people enjoy his apparent idiocy...and i'm not saying that he's stupid. what i meant is that he does something that people would ream someone else over, i think...but when bush does it is because he's 'plain spoken and from the heart...just a good ole' boy straightshootin and trying to his best for god and country.' i think you're definitely right that people like the image of the simple man...what i don't understand is why they like the simpleton...i mean, obama is very well spoken, even if he does have the 'mr. smith' angle working for him. reagan didn't bumble his speeches, you know?

Willravel · 09-07-2007, 01:51 PM

Relating ignorance and naivete with sincerity and affability is dangerous. Just ask Iraq.

aceventura3 · 09-08-2007, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

sorry ace reagan didn't bumble his speeches, you know?

Yes, Reagan was a true craftsman when it came to language and choosing the right words to communicate his message. I think his having acting experience helped him develop those skills. Ironically, many at the time of his presidency thought Reagan was a simpleton and just talking head.

Even though Bush bumbles his speeches, I measure great communicators by their ability to communicate their message to the most people in an understandable manner, Bush does that. Even when he creates new words, we all right away know what the words mean. On the other hand when a guy like Kerry speaks, his mouth moves but I often don't have a clue about what he is trying to say.

tecoyah · 09-08-2007, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Yes, Reagan was a true craftsman when it came to language and choosing the right words to communicate his message. I think his having acting experience helped him develop those skills. Ironically, many at the time of his presidency thought Reagan was a simpleton and just talking head.

Funny, I don't recall that sentiment at all.

Even though Bush bumbles his speeches, I measure great communicators by their ability to communicate their message to the most people in an understandable manner, Bush does that. Even when he creates new words, we all right away know what the words mean. On the other hand when a guy like Kerry speaks, his mouth moves but I often don't have a clue about what he is trying to say.

So, you measure his communication skill by the way he uses deception? While I completely understand what he is saying, just as you do, my interpretation of his style of speech is not at all favorable. Not only does he fail to use his native language properly, he remains the most deceptive person I have ever seen in office. I am simply not sure if he does so on purpose, or out of ignorance. I can't grasp how anyone capable of critical though finds something to admire in this man.

seretogis · 09-08-2007, 09:09 AM

Would Dubya have used the wrong "too" in the subject of this thread, or would Rove/Cheney have corrected it for him before he posted?

tecoyah · 09-08-2007, 11:00 AM

ouch....thats what I get for being critical....heh

aceventura3 · 09-09-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

So, you measure his communication skill by the way he uses deception?

No. Using one word, the word I would use is, clarity. Some people naturally have the skill, some don't. A "craftsmen" works to perfect the skill. Reagan was a "craftsman" when it came to his ability to communicate. He carefully chose each word in his speeches and often made changes to speeches he gave that had been written by others. In my mind there was no intent to deceive.

Quote:

While I completely understand what he is saying, just as you do, my interpretation of his style of speech is not at all favorable. Not only does he fail to use his native language properly, he remains the most deceptive person I have ever seen in office. I am simply not sure if he does so on purpose, or out of ignorance. I can't grasp how anyone capable of critical though finds something to admire in this man.

I have carefully listened to Bush and I have read many transcripts of his speeches, he does not deceive. The problem comes when his political opponents fail to understand that they are dealing with a person who will actually do what he says. For example, when Bush said he wanted authorization from Congress to use military force against Iraq, he meant it. Some people thought he was asking for authorization to send a message and for negotiation leverage. Who is being deceptive? I think it is those who voted for an unpopular war and want an excuse.

tecoyah · 09-09-2007, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

No. Using one word, the word I would use is, clarity. Some people naturally have the skill, some don't. A "craftsmen" works to perfect the skill. Reagan was a "craftsman" when it came to his ability to communicate. He carefully choose each word in his speeches and often made changes to speeches he gave that had been written by others. In my mind there was no intent to deceive.

I agree, Reagan was very skilled and in fact the primary reason I was registered republican at the time. He carried himself well, and showed strength in office...I admire him to this day.

I have carefully listened to Bush and I have read many transcripts of his speeches, he does not deceive. The problem comes when his political opponents fail to understand that they are dealing with a person who will actually do what he says. For example, when Bush said he wanted authorization from Congress to use military force against Iraq, he meant it. Some people thought he was asking for authorization to send a message and for negotiation leverage. Who is being deceptive? I think it is those who voted for an unpopular war and want an excuse.

I too have carefully listened to Bush, and compared the transcripts to the speeches. Claiming the confusion of his message falls to the opposition is not making sense in the context of your claims of clarity. Furthermore, trying to claim he "Does what he says", while completely ignoring the general trend to not only fail to do what he says, but at times never even say what he is doing or do something completely different than what was said seems a bit disingenuous. It seems you prefer to take one issue (granted a very big one) and generalize it as the whole package, rather than spending the time to look at the complexity, I find it likely that you do so to avoid seeing something you obviously do not want to see.

To be completely honest Ace, I am confused. I find you to be a bright individual with excellent input into most things. But, when it comes to understanding the downsides of GWB, its almost as if you simply go blind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I have carefully listened to Bush and I have read many transcripts of his speeches, he does not deceive.

This one line, all by itself should explain what I am saying...there is a mountain of documentation available that clearly shows otherwise, but you choose to ignore it.

aceventura3 · 09-09-2007, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I too have carefully listened to Bush, and compared the transcripts to the speeches. Claiming the confusion of his message falls to the opposition is not making sense in the context of your claims of clarity. Furthermore, trying to claim he "Does what he says", while completely ignoring the general trend to not only fail to do what he says, but at times never even say what he is doing or do something completely different than what was said seems a bit disingenuous. It seems you prefer to take one issue (granted a very big one) and generalize it as the whole package, rather than spending the time to look at the complexity, I find it likely that you do so to avoid seeing something you obviously do not want to see.

To be completely honest Ace, I am confused. I find you to be a bright individual with excellent input into most things. But, when it comes to understanding the downsides of GWB, its almost as if you simply go blind.

Bush has weaknesses and he has made many mistakes regarding the Iraq war but to say he is decieving is a stretch. He says he going to invade and he does. He says he is going to stay the course during his reelection and he does. He says he wants to listen to his military (understanding that military people will see military solutions), they suggest a surge and he asks for a surge and get it. He says he wants funding for the occupation, he gets it, etc, etc, etc.

So you call me blind, all I can say is that I am confused by that. Again, I think Bush's political opponents vote one way and then say Bush deceives them because they need an excuse for their participation in an unpopular war. Hence you have the famous Kerry line about voting for the war and against it at the same time.

Quote:

This one line, all by itself should explain what I am saying...there is a mountain of documentation available that clearly shows otherwise, but you choose to ignore it.

What I tend to ignore are the editorials about Bush lying. I read and listen to what he actually says and I make up my own mind.

This view you have about me reminds me of an exchange I recently had with DC. He talked about an NIE report, I asked if he had read it or just read what others said about the report, I asked some specific questions about the contents and I got nothing but silence. In another exchange with Will I said if Tenant says that he told Bush with greater degree of certainty that Iraq did not have WMD compared to the then general view that they did, that I would totally change my view and agree that Bush lied. Again, I got nothing. Contrary to your view, I am open to new information and I am willing to change my views.

Willravel · 09-09-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

In another exchange with Will I said if Tenant says that he told Bush with greater degree of certainty that Iraq did not have WMD compared to the then general view that they did, that I would totally change my view and agree that Bush lied. Again, I got nothing. Contrary to your view, I am open to new information and I am willing to change my views.

You read the article and then essentially asked me to go out (in the real world) and buy the book. That's a little ridiculous. I'm sure there are book stores near where you are, and that's a popular book. Go thumb through it in a Barnes and Noble for like 10 minutes. It's there. He's not the only one to have had a conversation like that with Bush. Several FBI and CIA people have come forward in the past 3-4 years with similar stories.

dc_dux · 09-09-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

You read the article and then essentially asked me to go out (in the real world) and buy the book. That's a little ridiculous.

Of course its ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as ace's response ("Speculation is speculation regardless if it comes from me or NIE") to my pointing out an NIE from last year and a national security report from several months ago (both readily available if ace really wanted to read them) that concluded, among the findings, that our invasion of Iraq has resulted in a propaganda tool for al Queda and more terrorist worldwide.

Bush is being deceitful in every public speech where he mentions al Queda dozens of times (over 90 times in one recent speech) in the context of the Iraq invasion/occupation and proclaims we have to fight them there so we dont fight them here....when the evidence from DoD, CIA and other sources is overwhelming that the majority of insurgents are Sunni Sadamists and Shiia militias and that the relatively small al Queda in Iraq has no capacity to bring their fight to the US.

Bush is being deceitful when he tells the public that he listens to the commanders in the field. He only listens to those whose recommendations support his pre-determined objectives. In deciding on the surge in Jan, he ignore the advice and recommendations of the head of Central Command, the top US general in Iraq and most commanders in Iraq at the time. In the coming days, he is likely to ignore the recommendation of Petreus's boss, Admiral Fallon, head of Central Command, who has recommended a substantial drawdown in the number of US troops in Iraq.

Bush is being deceitful when he shows up in Anbar Province last week and proclaims the "success" in Anbar is a result of the surge, counter to what Petreus said and not sharing the fact that we are making deals with one of the worst Sunni tribal leaders in Anbar, Sheikh Sattar, who has no interest in, or commitment to, a central government and who is building, with tacit US approval, a personal militia of thugs and highway bandits that will only have loyalty to him.

And Bush is deceiving the American public when he claims the surge in working.

aceventura3 · 09-13-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Of course its ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as ace's response ("Speculation is speculation regardless if it comes from me or NIE") to my pointing out an NIE from last year and a national security report from several months ago (both readily available if ace really wanted to read them) that concluded, among the findings, that our invasion of Iraq has resulted in a propaganda tool for al Queda and more terrorist worldwide.

I have looked. I have not found the actual report, all I found was commentary or second hand reporting on the report. Nor have I found the methodology used to reach the conclusion reached. I don't give special credibility simply based on "title", I prefer raw data and understanding the assumptions and the methodology others use to reach their conclusions.

You referred to the report as if you had specific knowledge that may have been of interest to me. My question was a simple one.

{added}

I just clicked on the link you provided. If anyone clicks the link, they see one post and no context. Why didn't you give a link to all of the directly related posts?

If I were a cynic, I would think that was a nice trick, an attempt to deceive. I would say it was impressive. Wait, I am a cynic, and I am rarely disappointed. Never mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

You read the article and then essentially asked me to go out (in the real world) and buy the book. That's a little ridiculous. I'm sure there are book stores near where you are, and that's a popular book. Go thumb through it in a Barnes and Noble for like 10 minutes. It's there. He's not the only one to have had a conversation like that with Bush. Several FBI and CIA people have come forward in the past 3-4 years with similar stories.

You made a claim, and I simply stated that if Tenant actually confirmed that claim that I would agree that Bush lied. I had not found anything supporting that Tenant actually confirmed the claim made. I stated clearly that I had not read his book nor have I heard or read everything he has said or written. You reading his book or not is your choice. I have been pretty clear and thought my position on this is pretty simple, I am not sure why it has gotten so complicated.

tecoyah · 09-13-2007, 08:51 AM

Perhaps as of yet unconfirmed, but still worth taking into the debate. Those of us who can no longer trust the administration will naturally be far more likely to believe this.

Quote:

Sept. 6, 2007 | On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam's inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument...9/06/bush_wmd/

Quote:

"[The source] told us that there were no active weapons of mass destruction programs," Drumheller is quoted as saying. "The [White House] group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested. And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.' "

Drumheller said the administration officials wanted no more information from Sabri because: "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/23/cia.iraq/index.html

aceventura3 · 09-13-2007, 09:52 AM

I asked Will if he had a source from Tenet confirming that Tenet believed the claim above and if he communicated that to Bush. I don't doubt that there were sources and information supporting that there were no WMD, however, given conflicting data, determinations still have to be made.

To say Bush lied when making a determination from opinions and on data where the certainty is in question is wrong in my opinion. Questioning his judgment is one thing, questioning his honesty is something else.

If I were asked to make a judgment on if you owned a gun, I would use clues from your posts, I may even get information from people who claim to know you, I may check public records, if I had the authority I might send inspectors to your home, etc, etc. If I came to an incorrect conclusion, wouldn't we say my conclusion was incorrect rather than saying my conclusion was a lie?

If you had a history of gun ownership, criminal convictions, and people saying you owned guns and had plans on getting more, and I concluded that you owned guns in spite of a source or more showing that you don't, wouldn't my attempt to come to the correct conclusion at least be respected even it it was wrong?

fastom · 09-13-2007, 10:00 AM

Ace, you want to believe he's honest so nothing any of us could point out will make you feel otherwise.
I don't think Bush is even smart enough to lie, but he says what he's told to say. His speeches do sound like a school kid in a play that forgot his lines and has the teacher whispering them from backstage. What do you think the earpiece is for?

shakran · 09-13-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

It is kind of funny that our President can't handle the same stupid shit that countless beauty pageant contestants pull off every year.

ROFL

excellent point mm.

aceventura3 · 09-13-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

Don't dig that hole too deep Ace ...

When I was a kid, nothing (outside of food, sleep, etc) gave me more satisfaction than playing in dirt. I am very familiar with digging holes, but I don't get your point.

tecoyah · 09-13-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If you had a history of gun ownership, criminal convictions, and people saying you owned guns and had plans on getting more, and I concluded that you owned guns in spite of a source or more showing that you don't, wouldn't my attempt to come to the correct conclusion at least be respected even it it was wrong?

Yes, your opinion would deserve to be respected, unless you purposefully ignored the sources claiming I had no guns or hid the information from view during your investigation. If however, the Dept of Tobacco and Fire arms presented you with information showing I was indeed no threat , and that the guns you thought I had were non existent, I would expect you to consider heavily the Data coming from the very people you pay to know these things.
If , in the course of my trial it became clear you had charged me and ruined my life because of your ignorance, I would then file Civil charges against you to have you removed from a position that would allow you to do this to anyone else. I would also seek Damages far and above my own financial losses as a means of retribution for your failure to do your job properly.

Perhaps you want to rephrase the rhetorical question in hopes of a less damaging answer?

aceventura3 · 09-13-2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Yes, your opinion would deserve to be respected, unless you purposefully ignored the sources claiming I had no guns

When I use information to come to a conclusion by definition it mean that I don't use information that contradicts the conclusion. I think you would say I "ignored" those sources, I would simply cite the sources used.

Quote:

or hid the information from view during your investigation.

I have a 10 year old son. If I told him that you owned guns and I don't want him ever to step foot in your home. Without sharing with him all of my "intelligence" you would say I hid information. I would say, I shared the information he needed to know.

Quote:

If however, the Dept of Tobacco and Fire arms presented you with information showing I was indeed no threat , and that the guns you thought I had were non existent, I would expect you to consider heavily the Data coming from the very people you pay to know these things.

I been through this several times. I would not give more credibility to the Dept. of Tobacco and Fire Arms over my own research or any other government agency. I would need to know how they came to their conclusion, and then I would use their information in addition to the information I already had. Just like Saddam can hide WMD, people can easily hide guns from the authorities. Many people have died after thinking that the authorities would protect and keep them from harm.

Quote:

If , in the course of my trial it became clear you had charged me and ruined my life because of your ignorance, I would then file Civil charges against you to have you removed from a position that would allow you to do this to anyone else. I would also seek Damages far and above my own financial losses as a means of retribution for your failure to do your job properly.

If I caused you damages, it would be my obligation to make you whole again, including punitive damages against me. I have no problem with that, it is just.

ratbastid · 09-13-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If I caused you damages, it would be my obligation to make you whole again, including punitive damages against me. I have no problem with that, it is just.

What sort of punishment is just for this administration, then?

tecoyah · 09-13-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

When I use information to come to a conclusion by definition it mean that I don't use information that contradicts the conclusion. I think you would say I "ignored" those sources, I would simply cite the sources used.

And would therefore be guilty of a dereliction of duty, if it was your job to investigate me. I would use this in the civil suit against you.

I have a 10 year old son. If I told him that you owned guns and I don't want him ever to step foot in your home. Without sharing with him all of my "intelligence" you would say I hid information. I would say, I shared the information he needed to know.

I would say you were a good Father, and protecting your son. If however, you told all my friends the same thing I would sue you for Liable.

I been through this several times. I would not give more credibility to the Dept. of Tobacco and Fire Arms over my own research or any other government agency. I would need to know how they came to their conclusion, and then I would use their information in addition to the information I already had. Just like Saddam can hide WMD, people can easily hide guns from the authorities. Many people have died after thinking that the authorities would protect and keep them from harm.

You would not do well in a position of authority then, as you are required to use the people at your disposal for Data. By attempting to investigate me alone, you have placed yourself in an inenviable position should you be incorrect, as you now bear all responsibility for the error. This also, I would be using in the civil case against you. By assuming responsibility for the case against me, you truly become the focus of my retribution for your incompetence, While by using the system as it was meant to be used you would have spread the liability to an institutional power even if the case went south, while lowering the chance of error by listening to multiple possibilities. Only with information can we make logical decisions in hopes of lowering the error curve, by going it alone you did not do your job.

If I caused you damages, it would be my obligation to make you whole again, including punitive damages against me. I have no problem with that, it is just.

Yes...it would. Now extrapolate to 3700 grieving families, and a hundred billion dollars.

shakran · 09-13-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If I were asked to make a judgment on if you owned a gun, I would use clues from your posts, I may even get information from people who claim to know you, I may check public records, if I had the authority I might send inspectors to your home, etc, etc. If I came to an incorrect conclusion, wouldn't we say my conclusion was incorrect rather than saying my conclusion was a lie?

Well now that depends doesn't it. If you gather all the information and have no concrete evidence that I have a gun, and then you send inspectors to my house to check for guns and they don't find any, and then you go on television telling the whole city that I do in fact have a gun, and you're going to come get me, and then you come attack me, kick me out of my house, and hang me, all the while not finding any guns. And THEN you go around changing your story saying that you actually went in because I was mean to my dog and you were liberating him, then yes, I'd say your conclusion was absolutely a lie.

ratbastid · 09-13-2007, 11:09 AM

And if it's in the best interest of your big-business cronies to prove that tecoyah has a gun? And you find that to be the case despite your most reliable intelligence telling you otherwise? And you then fabricate connections between tecoyah and other propped-up boogiemen in tecoyah's neighborhood to justify bashing his door in and dragging him off to the gallows? And then your dear friends in oil and logistics move into tecoyah's house and start making quite literally BILLIONS of dollars off the ensuing tragedy?

What do you call that, exactly? Can we please go ahead and call that a lie?

aceventura3 · 09-13-2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

What sort of punishment is just for this administration, then?

In the context of the Iraq war I think we had justification for the invasion even without the WMD. However, if the war was proved to be unjust, I think we have an obligation to repair Iraq. Like Powell said - if you break it you fix it.

This is one reason why I am confused by members of the Democratic Party - as a policy decision going forward, if you think the war was unjust, why would you want to leave before fixing what we created. They seem to want to blame Bush without taking any responsibility, even though they voted for the use of military force and have continually authorized funding and endorsed Bush's plans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Yes...it would. Now extrapolate to 3700 grieving families, and a hundred billion dollars.

Families of the fallen have paid a very high price for this war. I cannot think of anything that can repay their loss. However, if we fight and are willing to die for the principles of freedom and the rights of all, there is no greater way to serve mankind and this nation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Well now that depends doesn't it. If you gather all the information and have no concrete evidence that I have a gun, and then you send inspectors to my house to check for guns and they don't find any, and then you go on television telling the whole city that I do in fact have a gun, and you're going to come get me, and then you come attack me, kick me out of my house, and hang me, all the while not finding any guns. And THEN you go around changing your story saying that you actually went in because I was mean to my dog and you were liberating him, then yes, I'd say your conclusion was absolutely a lie.

I would agree with you. In the context of Iraq, if the above mirrored reality, I would agree that the war was unjust and Bush lied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

And if it's in the best interest of your big-business cronies to prove that tecoyah has a gun? And you find that to be the case despite your most reliable intelligence telling you otherwise? And you then fabricate connections between tecoyah and other propped-up boogiemen in tecoyah's neighborhood to justify bashing his door in and dragging him off to the gallows? And then your dear friends in oil and logistics move into tecoyah's house and start making quite literally BILLIONS of dollars off the ensuing tragedy?

What do you call that, exactly? Can we please go ahead and call that a lie?

If you say it was all done in the interest of big business, and in-fact that is wrong and there is no connection between the decisions made and big-business and that in fact the concept of big-business is nothing more that a trow away phrase to describe those who believe in the ability to buy and sell good and service in a free market, isn't that a lie?

dc_dux · 09-13-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

This is one reason why I am confused by members of the Democratic Party - as a policy decision going forward, if you think the war was unjust, why would you want to leave before fixing what we created. They seem to want to blame Bush without taking any responsibility, even though they voted for the use of military force and have continually authorized funding and endorsed Bush's plans.

ace.....you continue to perpetuate two false characterizations about the Democrats.

One, that they voted for the resolution authorizing use of force and subsequent bills for continued funding. In fact, the majority of Democrats voted for neither.

Two, that the Democrats want to leave without fixing what we created. Every Democratic alternative to the failed Bush policy and surge has components that include an Arab "stabilization force" to replace our troops as we drawn down, a real emphasis on diplomacy to address the political stalemate - with the active participation of Saudi Arabia and Egypt (who have influence with the Sunnis) and Iran (who as influence with the Shiias) as well as neighbors Syria and Jordan . Can you point to any diplomatic effort by Bush to deal with the failed political system or to involve the Arab powers in the Middle East?

Some Democratic proposals also include greater humanitarian and financial assistance to respond to the devastation caused by the sectarian violence and displacement that our invasion unleashed and most maintain a US presence to focus on al Queda and border security.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I have looked. I have not found the actual report, all I found was commentary or second hand reporting on the report. Nor have I found the methodology used to reach the conclusion reached. I don't give special credibility simply based on "title", I prefer raw data and understanding the assumptions and the methodology others use to reach their conclusions.

The "declassified key judgments" of the NIEs are readily available on the Director of National Intelligence website (dni.gov). Among the findings from the one I referenced in previous posts:

Quote:

The Iraq conflict has become the —cause celebre“ for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carryon the fight.

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.

• Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1)Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the Iraq —jihad;“ (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims–all of which jihadists exploit.

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/De..._Judgments.pdf

Unlike the NIE on pre-war WMDs in which there were dissenting opinions, there are no such dissenting opinions presented in the declassified key judgments of this NIE. One can reasonably conclude that our invasion of Iraq has contributed to the spread of the jihadist movement worldwide.

I am sorry the level of detail on the methodology and the raw data of the NIE is classified. If you dont want to accept these conclusions as any better than your own judgments, then there is nothing more I can add.

aceventura3 · 09-14-2007, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace.....you continue to perpetuate two false characterizations about the Democrats.

One, that they voted for the resolution authorizing use of force and subsequent bills for continued funding. In fact, the majority of Democrats voted for neither.

I did say I was confused on the issue. I am never really sure what Democrats think compared to what they say and do. Am I to understand that Democrats have been against the war from the beginning, have been against continued funding, and against the surge, but they have failed in all of their attempts to prevent, stop, and de-fund the war?

They are up against the least popular President in modern history. They have the benefit of saying they want to end a war of choice. They have the benefit of saying bring our over-extended troops home. They have the benefit of saying we should stop wasting money in a country that is in its own civil war. They have the luxury of saying our real enemy is in a different country. They have the luxury of having the majority in this country wanting to end the war. They have the luxury of saying the war was based on lies. They have the luxury of saying the war is making us less safe. Yet, they can not succeed in clearly communicating their message to the American people to bring the war to an end? I am sure I have again, mis characterized something, but I guess that is why i need you. Please help me.

Quote:

The "declassified key judgments" of the NIEs are readily available on the Director of National Intelligence website (dni.gov). Among the findings from the one I referenced in previous posts:

Unlike the NIE on pre-war WMDs in which there were dissenting opinions, there are no such dissenting opinions presented in the declassified key judgments of this NIE. One can reasonably conclude that our invasion of Iraq has contributed to the spread of the jihadist movement worldwide.

I am sorry the level of detail on the methodology and the raw data of the NIE is classified. If you dont want to accept these conclusions as any better than your own judgments, then there is nothing more I can add.

Here is a quote from the declassified key judgments:

Quote:

The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

On one hand one can read this to mean that the Iraq conflict is breeding more terrorists. On the other hand one can read this to mean that given terrorists exist, if they fail in Iraq fewer, not more, will be inspired to carry on the fight. I agree with Bush - take the fight to the terrorists - fight the fight in Iraq not here. We can fight them now or fight them later, but either way there is going to be a fight. If the fight is now or later, the fight is going to inspire and be a “cause celebre”.

fastom · 09-15-2007, 12:44 AM

On the one hand?

I dunno, i think it states it pretty clearly and unless you have preconcieved opinions it should be interpreted as it reads. That is there are more terrorists, your friend Mister Bush is not protecting you, he's making you a target.

09-07-2007, 02:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	It is kind of funny that our President can't handle the same stupid shit that countless beauty pageant contestants pull off every year. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-07-2007, 03:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	no "nuculer?" __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

09-07-2007, 07:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	I find it interesting. Bush is perceived as a bumbling, unintelligent person, but on the other hand he has been able fool the world and specifically Congress pretty much getting everything he has asked for regarding a war, a war where everyone on the left believes was based on lies. Last night as I was channel surfing various news shows, some have already come to the conclusion that Bush is going to be responsible for again lying to the world and more specifically Congress regarding the progress or lack of progress in Iraq. I even heard that some believe that he had already made up his mind regarding his strategy and the September reporting was simply a rouse to gain more time, and that he has been playing a that game since our military occupation of Iraq. So, I wonder, which is it? Is Bush a bumbling, unintelligent boob, or is he some kind of mastermind who masterfully manipulates those who disagree with what he wants? __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

09-07-2007, 07:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Ace, George W. Bush the man is not the Bush administration. People do things in his name constantly. The man is bumbling. The administration is created the war. They are completely separate. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

09-07-2007, 08:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Every president is a mouthpiece to some extent. In think in our current administration this is particularly so. And I'm not one to call GWB stupid. Bumbling, yes, but I don't think he's stupid. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-07-2007, 10:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	not to mention the fact that just because someone isn't officially part of the administration that their phone doesn't work. i agree with mixed and jazz on this...i don't think bush is stupid, but i'd have to say rather inept. he leaves much to be desired in what i would like from a presidential candidate; ironically, it frequently seems that the very qualities which i dislike in him are those which resonate most strongly with voters. then again, our country is falling behind in education levels, but perhaps that's another story. point being that much of what this administration has tried to pull off has been in the works in thinktanks for years...the guiding philosophy of this administration didn't materialize on a ranch down in texas or a frathouse at yale, or connetticutt, or wherever bush is really from. and specifically to the op - things like this situation, or when he started rubbing merkel's shoulders a few years ago, or etc etc etc..why does the image of the idiot resonate so strongly with 'conservative' voters? i thought 'conservatives' believed that by hard work and education, you could raise yourself up. how do poor uneducated people consider themselves to be the same 'conservatives' that super-rich 'conservatives' are? it never ceases to amaze me. so having someone like bush is the natural choice. white collar, good family, old money....and the appearance of a farmer so stupid he'd be made fun of by the other farmers. sells like hotcakes! __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-07-2007, 10:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I hope he goes home to the United Arab Emirates on accident. And stays.

09-07-2007, 12:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	It's not just Republicans, ace. Barak Obama is textbook Mr Smith. People are attacking him on the thing you attack Mr Smith on--inexperience. But except for those already predisposed against him, that's a HUGE selling point. Re the Australian gaffes: it could be worse. He could vomit on somebody...

09-07-2007, 01:19 PM	#14 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	sorry ace, i didn't mean the 'idiot' as in W being an idiot, i meant The Idiot, as in a theoretical form. it seems that people enjoy his apparent idiocy...and i'm not saying that he's stupid. what i meant is that he does something that people would ream someone else over, i think...but when bush does it is because he's 'plain spoken and from the heart...just a good ole' boy straightshootin and trying to his best for god and country.' i think you're definitely right that people like the image of the simple man...what i don't understand is why they like the simpleton...i mean, obama is very well spoken, even if he does have the 'mr. smith' angle working for him. reagan didn't bumble his speeches, you know? __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-07-2007, 01:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Relating ignorance and naivete with sincerity and affability is dangerous. Just ask Iraq.

09-08-2007, 09:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Would Dubya have used the wrong "too" in the subject of this thread, or would Rove/Cheney have corrected it for him before he posted? __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

09-08-2007, 11:00 AM	#19 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	ouch....thats what I get for being critical....heh __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by uncle phil; 09-09-2007 at 04:44 AM.. Reason: fixed it for ya, buddy...it was making me crazy, too...

09-13-2007, 09:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	I asked Will if he had a source from Tenet confirming that Tenet believed the claim above and if he communicated that to Bush. I don't doubt that there were sources and information supporting that there were no WMD, however, given conflicting data, determinations still have to be made. To say Bush lied when making a determination from opinions and on data where the certainty is in question is wrong in my opinion. Questioning his judgment is one thing, questioning his honesty is something else. If I were asked to make a judgment on if you owned a gun, I would use clues from your posts, I may even get information from people who claim to know you, I may check public records, if I had the authority I might send inspectors to your home, etc, etc. If I came to an incorrect conclusion, wouldn't we say my conclusion was incorrect rather than saying my conclusion was a lie? If you had a history of gun ownership, criminal convictions, and people saying you owned guns and had plans on getting more, and I concluded that you owned guns in spite of a source or more showing that you don't, wouldn't my attempt to come to the correct conclusion at least be respected even it it was wrong? __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

09-13-2007, 10:00 AM	#28 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	Ace, you want to believe he's honest so nothing any of us could point out will make you feel otherwise. I don't think Bush is even smart enough to lie, but he says what he's told to say. His speeches do sound like a school kid in a play that forgot his lines and has the teacher whispering them from backstage. What do you think the earpiece is for? Last edited by fastom; 09-13-2007 at 10:07 AM..

09-13-2007, 11:09 AM	#36 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	And if it's in the best interest of your big-business cronies to prove that tecoyah has a gun? And you find that to be the case despite your most reliable intelligence telling you otherwise? And you then fabricate connections between tecoyah and other propped-up boogiemen in tecoyah's neighborhood to justify bashing his door in and dragging him off to the gallows? And then your dear friends in oil and logistics move into tecoyah's house and start making quite literally BILLIONS of dollars off the ensuing tragedy? What do you call that, exactly? Can we please go ahead and call that a lie?

09-15-2007, 12:44 AM	#40 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	On the one hand? I dunno, i think it states it pretty clearly and unless you have preconcieved opinions it should be interpreted as it reads. That is there are more terrorists, your friend Mister Bush is not protecting you, he's making you a target.