Rekna

The above is a great example of what is wrong with the current education system. I'd like to discuss the exact question that this girl was asked.

"Recent polls have shown 1/5th of Americans can't locate the US on a world map. Why do you think this is?"

I have heard statistics like this before and it makes me wonder what is wrong with us. But before we assume that all Americans are dumb we should probably verify the poll is a fair poll. Does anyone know what study they are referring to and how the poll was conducted?

If this poll is indeed true, then what is wrong with our education system? I used to believe such stats were skewed and kids were just being funny on the polls in order to be purposefully wrong but I doubt that many kids would do that. But now I there are many different problems which are culminating to the crisis that we are seeing.

First teachers in this country are paid way to little. In my home town teachers were making around 18k a year starting out. Educating our population is one of the most important jobs around why is it that our teachers are being paid like high school drop outs? How can we increase there pay? Should we increase taxes, decrease spending, ect?

Second there is a culture of "I don't care" in our youth. It isn't cool to be smart so why should people care. Are Americans to spoiled that they are now getting lazy and don't care about trying to make a life for themselves?

I think parents are a large part of the problem. Parents need to encourage there kids to do well in school, push them, challenge them, and don't let them just give up. What motivation is there for a child to learn if his or her parent's are going to just give them everything? Should you really buy that D average child of yours a cell phone? Make your children do well in school in order to earn the luxuries they now think they deserve.

In addition, many young adults are going to college to party and not to learn on the parents dime. I think this is a huge mistake. I thinking paying for my child's tuition is fine as long as they do good in their classes. When my children get to college I'll gladly refund most or all of their class costs depending on their grades.

What do you think is the cause of this problem and what can we do to stop it?

shakran

Well I just wrote out about a 500 word essay on why I think things are screwed up, and the login cookie expired and I lost the whole thing. D'oh!

To sum up, our education system is broken because we don't learn to learn, and because we're obsessed with what things are called rather than what they are.

I recommend you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by R.M. Pirsig. It's a very good look at the root cause of the problem you are talking about.

JumpinJesus

Exactly, to a point. Basically, we expect students to open their heads and we can pour in all this disjointed information devoid of context and meaning....but they had better damn well say, "under God.." when they stand up in the morning.

Now, an anecdote: I was teaching 4 graders in Columbus, Ohio. On the state social studies test, one of the pages had a map of Ohio with all its natural resources on it. The students had to be able to read the map and decide what Ohio's most abundant resource was. One student raised her hand. Technically, during the state test, we're not supposed to answer any questions, but I figured maybe she had to go to the bathroom, so I went over. She was frustrated because she couldn't find Ohio on the map.


It was a map of Ohio. I shook my head and walked away. Part of me felt like a failure because 4th graders in Ohio study Ohio in social studies. The whole year is a focus on Ohio. The cover of their book has a big map of Ohio on it. There are maps of Ohio throughout the entire book. We went over and over every single type of map there could be: political, physical, land feature, population, road, resource, etc. yet this kid still didn't know what Ohio looked like.

Talking with the other 4th grade teacher, we couldn't figure it out....he had similar problems. Why weren't our students learning? Was it us? Was it their parents? Was it the system? To this day, I'm still not positive what it is, but I do believe that parents play a huge part in the success of students.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

flstf

Just curious, did the students studying Ohio all year and still not know what a map of the state looked like get a failing grade?

JumpinJesus

Grades have become a joke. Mainly because they mean nothing anymore. I'm one of those teachers who believes that in reality, only about 2 or 3 students in a classroom are smart enough for honor roll.

And while those students get Fs in subjects, we don't have the authority to retain them. We can recommend it, but we have no say in whether the student passes or fails a grade.

This helped me understand why, when teaching 6th graders, I had a kid in there who was 14.

Oh, and yes, that student got an F. In fact, she got an F in everything. She still passed 4th grade.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

Sometimes I'll write a post in a word document before posting it. I even have a few saved!

...Neways
People learn what they think is important or what's interesting/cool. For a lot of people things like history, maths, science and geography aren't on the list. And let's be honest: who needs to know where the US is on a map? A majority of US citizens never even leave the country.

Most people learn enough to get by. The young woman above was able to make it through life not needing to be up on things like basic english comprehension because she's drop dead gorgeous. Admittedly, it's funny when finally she does have to think on her feet and she finds herself unarmed, it's on international TV, but after this blows over it will be easy for her to go back to simply existing as a beautiful person.

As an intellectual (at least I hope I'm an intellectual), I can't really sympathize with her situation because I'd never dream of going up there without having studied and with the ability to think on my feet, but that's me. Just because my IQ happens to be above average doesn't mean I have the right to judge her.

ubertuber

To be fair, and a little gracious, I think that was at least partly (mostly?) a public speaking issue. I just think her mind was racing and her mouth followed it.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

JumpinJesus

I think it's more that it's being used as indicative of the state of our educational system. Not so much that being able to find the U.S. on a map is important, but more along the lines of: if they can't even manage this simple task, imagine what other tasks they will be incapable of accomplishing.

Though I'm fairly certain that the original post was also intended to include the woman's fumbling of the answer, I'm going to agree with ubertuber on this. She was interviewed after the fact. She stated she didn't hear the question clearly, and she was a little caught off guard. We all fumble our words at times, it's just that her fumble was filmed then uploaded for all of us to mock.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

I dunno, the followup on Good Morning America was still along the same lines. Now I'm not sure if I should put my foot in my mouth. I suppose I should make a general apology just in case I'm wrong.

Wait, wasn't I trying to defend her?

flstf

It has been many years since I was in school and I wonder what benefit there is in passing these students on to the next grade. It seems like this is not good for the students, teachers, parents and society in general. Isn't this just making it extremely difficult for the teachers in the next grade level?

Jinn

I think Education in the US is fucked.

But I also think a statistic like this is total garbage without citation or SOMETHING to back it up. There are so many terrible statistics based in bad data that get passed ad infinitum without someone bothering to check their accuracy.

Did they poll 10 people, and find that two of them couldn't locate the US? Surely you COULD extrapolate this to the US population as a whole, but it'd be disingenuous and a bit unethical.

EVEN if I suspend disbelief and say maybe they polled 5000 people, the sample size STILL isn't representative. What is the social and economic status of the respondents? Were they randomly selected or taken from a selected sample? How was the map presented? Who administered the test? Did the respondents understand the question?

Statistics are terribly abused.

I've taught 90 students in the last 1.5 years, and I know for a fact that all of them were able to locate the US on a map. Would it be fair to extrapolate that and say that 100% of US citizens can find the US on a world map?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

I suspect that the statistic is BS. I'd like to see the study.

Jinn

And someone who agrees with us both:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/terry-t...raphy-question

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Excellent find, Jinn. It's just as I suspected.

pai mei

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pfRUMmTs0ZA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pfRUMmTs0ZA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is a video about schools in the USA.
I am from Romania, our school system remained the same from the communist times until recently, I learned under this system and I think it was a good one. Now they want to change it, they say kids learn useless stuff, they want it to be more like in the western countries - what they achieved is that the percentage of kids who graduate high school in the first try has dropped from 80% to 50% from 2000 to 2007
Maybe kids these days don't like to learn or they have too many ways to have fun instead of learning and that is the problem ?

Useless stuff it may be, but even if kids forget what they learned, the fact that they learned it makes it more easy to learn more useful stuff , it's like training for something
I think the system is to blame for what kids know.

I see the NWO everywhere, I can say they are behind this too - they sure do not want a world of educated and smart people.
Just my paranoia don't mind this I tend to make the most crazy assumptions , I will check if they are real another day. Shoot first ask questions later
Found this video :
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/C8cC21jB9EE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/C8cC21jB9EE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Kadath

"I did however find a authoritative poll by National Geographic that pretty much decimates the Miss Teen USA claim. "

ARGH.

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it's quiet in here

seretogis

No one likes a speling/grammar nazi, and yet I feel compelled to bring this up since it is relevant to the thread topic.

In your OP you misuse there/their/they're and to/too/two several times and typed "ect" rather than "etc," perhaps due to lack of knowledge of what etc means. Etc. is shorthand for "et cetera" and is typically pronounced et-see by people who use it frequently. These are things that a lot of people have trouble with, and yet is taught early on. Why do people in their child-bearing years struggle with things we are taught in grade school (admittedly, you used it correctly once below, so may have just been tired/inattentive when writing the OP)? My guess, is a lack of reading.

While in public school I read roughly a book a week, and it is a hobby that I carried from grade school through to today (though most of my reading these days is online.) Simply seeing proper usage of words over and over again in books is helpful in pounding into someone's head how the written word should look, and how certain words are used. If you do not read often, it will be more difficult to understand there/their/they're and to/too/two in context with how they should be used (among other things..) If a teacher doesn't fulfill his or her basic responsibility to force/encourage students to read, I wouldn't pay them any more than $18k either.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Mojo_PeiPei

I think that people need to stop viewing education short falls in this country as merely a financial problem. By saying that I am in no way arguing against the idea that teachers do not make enough or that there are in fact underfunded areas/students in this country. My big problem is however that money is the only solution ever really brought to the table; I personally believe, like others on this thread, that the problem is the kids and parents, and in some instances and to a much lesser degree a cultural thing. You can keep hiking the taxes and throwing more money into the black hole that has become education, but if the kids aren't willing to learn, or there parents aren't there to push them to it, then all the money in the world will not make the difference.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Infinite_Loser

Before I type out a 'formal' response, I have a simple question. Just how many people here who are criticizing the US education system have gone through the education system in another country?

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

powerclown

America has the best, most prestigious, most intensive and comprehensive centers of learning on Planet Earth. Not everyone is book smart, so what? - society needs dishwashers and janitors equally as much as they need brain surgeons and astrophysicists.

archetypal fool

My biggest problem with the current teaching method which dominates our country is that it teaches facts which are, by themselves, pointless. I believe, though I have no stats to back my claim, that if students were taught logic and reasoning they would be infinitely more prepared to undertake real learning and gain true intelligence, because naked facts mean nothing unless they are clothed by context and reasoning.

Take, for example, the case of the question "why are plants green?". When I was first learning biology (years ago), the answer provided to the class was that plants contained chlorophyll, which is green. I couldn't remember this fact, because it, by itself, didn't make any sense. It wasn't until I found one of the best teachers I've ever had that I was able to understand this fact. The correct, contextually and logically rich answer to the question was that plants need to collect energy from sun-light, and, in the electromagnetic spectrum of light, green contains relatively small amounts of energy compared to the wave-lengths of red and blue, and thus, evolution has yielded in plants molecules which absorb red and blue wave-lengths and reflect the useless green - this molecule is called chlorophyll.

I received both of these answers in 9th grade, from two different teachers. After I left the first teacher, I had a hate for biology - a hate which the second turned into a passion and a quest for knowledge (which is why it is my major). I've met very few people who enjoy biology the way I do - usually people respond by saying how much they hated biology when they were learning it; it makes me wonder if their first biology teachers were content with giving out naked facts.

Of course, my case isn't unique, but it also isn't typical - if every teacher taught using a framework of logic/reasoning and facts, I think it would be a lot easier to learn (at least that's my case). I have a feeling that if the seeds of logic and reasoning were planted into children's heads, then a simple answer will only create a need (or a want) to understand the subject better.

Obviously, it's all easier said than done. I keep forgetting that Utopia is unattainable.

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

kurty[B]

pai mei - I watched the whole 20/20 video, and found it rather informative.

I recently had a discussion with a friend who negotiates with teacher's unions. They are currently on strike looking for a $2K/year raise, they are not promising improvements in their teaching strategy, just demanding more money. Myself, I'm building a plan of my successes and achievements, and promising five years of my service to my company for a raise that I deem needed. I have a back-up plan, if it does not work out, I move on, find a better paying job elsewhere, and the company I work for hires someone willing to work for what they want to pay (win-win).

I like the point they made about Belgium schools, the money is tied to the kids. That opens a world of opportunity. Schools would be competing for my child and my money. I used to simply ignore public schooling problems, because I did not have children myself, and I myself and parents really contributed to my success (realizing that I was excelling, and forcing the schools to put me in classes a grade ahead, but not jumping me ahead in grade level). It's complicated, but I would rather be given $9K and have the government say "that's for the education of your child, you can pick where he goes to school". If a private school in town offered their services for $12-15K/year but were a much better school (smaller class size, better teachers), I would try and come up with the extra money to pay for that school.

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In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

JumpinJesus

You shouldn't have to wait for those responses before posting your answer. And honestly, I don't think you'll have too many people responding positively.

It's like a variation of the saying: I don't have to eat a shit sandwich before I say McDonalds sucks.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

archetypal fool

I also forgot to add that American culture is to blame. It's really depressing for me because I see it affecting my own family; my brother (who I'll call Mike) is just starting High School, but grades are irrelevant to him because he wants to be an NBA superstar. Before this, he wanted to be a marine biologist - but after learning of the course of study one must take to become a marine biologist, he decided it was too hard - bull-shit I say. No matter how much I try to reason with him, no matter the statistics, he refuses to have to learn anything, because the popular "urban" culture frowns on it. I think it's disgraceful, and it's playing a definite role in the general dumbing-down of America.

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

Infinite_Loser

It's always nice to know what standards people use to judge the US education system. American education-- Whether or not you want to believe it-- Is leaps and bounds ahead of most of the rest of the world. If I'm not mistaken, the US government already spends more money per student than any other country in the world (Correct me if I'm wrong here). Sure, you could probably find some countries with a better education system than the one the US uses, but you won't find many.

The problem with these threads is that:

1.) People tend to look at the education system in their area and somehow conclude that the majority of the US must be same and

2.) People will ignore the good and, many times, exagerrate the bad.

*Shrugs*

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

JumpinJesus

Okay, I'll give you those two points. You're right about those. My experience comes from: I grew up in California so attended the public school system there in the 70s and 80s.

I'm a certified teacher and I've taught in Columbus, Chicago, and now I'm in the Phoenix suburbs.

I'll say that the public schools in the suburbs for the most part exceeds the public education system in the urban areas. Granted, this doesn't mean that every school in the suburbs is better than every school in the city, but you get my point.

I'm most likely to believe that the performance of a school has a lot to do with the socioeconomic makeup of the neighborhood.

Also, our public education system is geared towards the middle class, whose value system is much much different than the value system in the wealthy class and the lower class. What happens is that those with the means send their students to private schools, who cater to their own values, and the rest (for the most part) go to public schools. Now, in the suburbs, the educational system values mesh perfectly with the middle class values, so education works quite well there. In the lower class, however, the education system is still pushing middle class values and that creates a lot of conflict.

There are over 800 schools in the Chicago Public Schools system. If you want an idea and are willing to do the work, here's a link for you to follow: http://research.cps.k12.il.us/resweb/schoolqry

type in any name of a Chicago Public School and it will give you the school report card.

I'll start you off with some schools to type in:

Bethune
Christopher Columbus
Eddison
Lasalle Language Academy
Chalmers

This is the reality facing most of our students, teachers and parents.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Bill O'Rights

I have been witness to this same attitude. Unfortunately, it also carries over to those that want to learn. There is a very real "intimidation factor" at play.

Because something costs more does not necessarily make it better.

Hmmm...I never looked at it from that angle before. That's something to think about, for sure. I wonder though...is the "urban culture" that's also pervasive in the suburban areas, having a similar impact? That is to say; how much do the little "wannabe's" really wanna be?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Rekna

My problem was I was writing this in a hurry before a meeting and was typing without reviewing what I wrote. It is also why it doesn't flow well. Though I'll admit my grammar is not as good as it should be. I don't know if this is because of a lack of interest when I was a kid or poor teachers. All through out school I was breezing through math courses without even trying but never did well at spelling and grammar. I think the reason I excelled at math was I had a few good teachers that showed me my potential.

But these are in higher education (graduate school and beyond). Our colleges are party houses where a large percentage of students are there to party. Grade inflation has made it so most people get A's and very few fail. Students that should be failing are getting C-'s so they don't have to retake the classes.

swordsworn

I do have to throw out a question here for people though.

How many people that are reading this have ideas on how to fix the system?
How many people here are going to tell your teachers, administrators, school board members or even another parent on ideas to fix things?

I think we are pigeoning teachers into an all knowing category that says because they have gone to school to learn how to teach, they must know how to work with every student in a 35 child classroom and that it is the teacher's responsibility to make the child learn their material.

When did people get away from having parents or community members teach, and be responsible for children's learning as well as the teachers?

waltert

sounds like I'm at the wrong university! or at least in the wrong major. I think you might find that its very cut and dry in the engineering departments still...probably just by the nature of the people who teach engineering classes.

and since most non-science classes really dont teach anything thats important...I dont know if passing students is all that bad.

my older brother got a degree in business management and marketing...and he hasnt used anything that his classes taught...they're just hoops to jump through so that you can get a piece of paper.

I have gained an immense amount of mathematical and scientific reasoning ability in college....but its alot of work thats more than just busy-work, or memorization (though I do have to memorize the Iron-iron carbide phase diagram for some reason ) and working hard doesnt necessarily mean good grades either.

anyway...its not the education system's fault. yes, it does suck that high school is too easy (that really hurts guys who decide to pursue engineering or science)...but the reality is...the opportunity to learn is there, and its up to the parents to raise the kid to have a passion for learning. In the US...if some kid (and the kids parents want him to) wants to learn, there is no limit on the amount of resources that they have at their disposal.

Jinn

There was an interesting Straight Dope today that addressed the myth that US Education (and particularly vocabulary) was on a steady decline, like claimed above:

"A speaker at a recent school board meeting claimed the vocabulary of the average American grade school student was 25,000 words in 1945 and about 10,000 today. This is pretty disturbing if true. What do you think?"

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070907.html

As usual, it's misconstrued statistics that lead to the perception of a drastic decrease, rather than reality.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

shaman

I'm probably gonna catch hell for this from teachers but.

Living in Los Angeles, I can only talk about Los Angeles pay rates. I do mortgages so I see a lot of people's pay stubs.

LAUSD credentialed teachers are payed pretty damn well. a teacher with five years experience is paid approximatley $40k yearly for working approximatley 9.5 months out of the year. If they work summer school, after school programs, teach in a disadvantaged school, have a masters degree, or any number of other things, they gain additional income. to put this in perspective. If you run this out to a 12 month salary you are looking at aproximately $50500 yearly. this is roughly similiar to starting salaries for a CPA. or mid range pay for most entry level civil service jobs. This is also roughly what an assistant manager of a bank makes.

This is also unadjusted what a midlevel marketing person makes in a large corporation. I see a lot of people who make a hell of a lot less than teachers.
The crap I hear about how much more teachers work is just that crap. unless you are an hourly puke, the myth of a 40 hour work week is just that a myth, I don't know anyone who is salaried who goes in at 8 and home at 5 with an hour for lunch. yes you have to set up lesson plans, most people have to put in extra work to come up to speed at a new job.

Yes, teachers are held to unreasonable standards teaching to tests that don't prove anything, this is the fault of our legislature and parents not getting involved. I have a couple of friends who have given up teaching because theres was too much bull shit.
Yes our schools are absolutely screwed. teachers not making enough money is not the cause of this. having infrastructure that is fucked and teachers and not enough resources to teach the kids the things they are going to need in the next 20 years is the problem.

Shauk

well what kind of pisses me off about some of the comments is that people seem to be so judgmental and presumptuous about the why's and how's of this whole stammering and improvising on stage.



some people get flustered in front of that many people or insecure and this kind of stuff happens, it doesn't mean they are particularly stupid or that the education system is failing really.

Jinn

call me harsh..

but..

she still sounds stupid

"like.. is .. is that me up there in my body? oh my goddddd.."

and as much time as she had to prepare that, that's the best should could do?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

JumpinJesus

Sure, some people get flustered, but when it's your job to be on stage performing and you can't help but fuck up, then you deserve to be treated harshly. Also, reinforcing the stereotype that pretty blonde girls are vacant doesn't help, either.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

connyosis

In case you haven't seen this:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fLnCDTWB2S0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fLnCDTWB2S0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Now I don't know how you do things in the US, but I'm pretty sure that here in Sweden even before we know how to spell our own name we learn that the earth is round.

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If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Jinn

She's a dumbass.

/threadjack
In fairness, the world is not round, either. It's not even an oblate spheroid. Close, but not quite.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel