What's all this hub-bub about George Bush? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DaveOrion · 08-30-2007, 01:39 PM

My anger stems from the fact that GW is a liar, mass murderer, war criminal, and an insecure tiny little man who has attempted to circumvent the constitution, replace the Bill Of Rights, sown the seeds of fear in order to further his own agenda, and is a major embarrassment because of his inability to construct a simple sentence. Thats All.

ottopilot · 08-30-2007, 01:50 PM

SecretMethod70 · 08-30-2007, 01:53 PM

To name just a few things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismiss...ys_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_leak_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...ml?source=mypi (Cheney claims he's not part of the executive OR legislative branch)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war (setting aside that we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it's been horrendously mismanaged and continues to be)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden (instead of focusing on Iraq, we should have always had our top efforts on this guy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan (and now Afghanistan is going south due to our lack of attention as well)

see dc_dux's post below for more

dc_dux · 08-30-2007, 01:56 PM

Welcome otto! New voices and new perspectives are always welcome, but its asking alot to rehash all of the many issues with Bush that have been well documented here in numerous threads.

I agree with Dave, but I will try to be a little more specific, with just a few examples.

Start with the most serious....the undermining of the concept of the separation of powers:

Quote:

The use of "signing statements" at unprecedented levels......here is one egregious example:

When President Bush signed the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act this month (2006), he included an addendum saying that he did not feel obliged to obey requirements that he inform Congress about how the FBI was using the act's expanded police powers.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...t_requirement/

Here is a more general finding by an ABA panel:

Presidential signing statements that assert President Bush’s authority to disregard or decline to enforce laws adopted by Congress undermine the rule of law and our constitutional system of separation of powers, according to a report released today by a blue-ribbon American Bar Association task force.
http://www.abanet.org/media/releases/news072406.html

Add to that the excessive use of executive orders, the unilateral interpretation of US obligations under international treaties (ie treatment of prisoners under Geneva Conventions), and the attempt to extend "executive privilege" to include exchanges between WH staff (conversations and e-mails not directly involving the Pres) in order to prevent Congress from performing its proper oversight role of the Executive Branch.

And then there is the withholding of pre-war intel from Congress that questioned his WMD rationale for war and his lying to the American people ("Congress had the same intel I had")to justify the invasion and the ongoing misrepresentation of the facts to continue (for 4 years) a failed occupation.

Warrantless wiretapping of citizens in violation of FISA (at the time...as determined by FISA judges and DoJ attorneys) and Bush's personal order to block DOJ internal investigations by denying security clearances to DoJ investigators

Not to mention the blatant and excessive manipulation of scientific data of federal agencies for political purposes.....we had a long thread on that one:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...cientific+data

As well as serious potential violations of the Presidential Records Act and attempts to block Freedom of Information Act requests along with the massive level of new secrecy and classification of documents... all to prevent access to the federal government to a public that has a right to know.

I have lots more when I have time

The damage Bush had done to our relatively open and balanced (between the branches) system of government has been wide and deep. Fortunately, the system is still stronger than one man and can be corrected.

uncle phil · 08-30-2007, 02:02 PM

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97421

Willravel · 08-30-2007, 02:11 PM

His words are not only foolish, but truly hateful. Beyond that, I'm not 100% sure how much of the catastrophes during his presidency he's actually responsible for.

SecretMethod70 · 08-30-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

His words are not only foolish, but truly hateful. Beyond that, I'm not 100% sure how much of the catastrophes during his presidency he's actually responsible for.

His administration, his responsibility. (That's not to say the other people responsible shouldn't also be held accountable.)

It's one thing for the occasional government fuck-up - it happens - but he has appointed far too many people who have gone on to do terrible jobs. If nothing else, it shows that he has an extreme lack of judgment in people, and that alone is enough to think he's a terrible president.

FoolThemAll · 08-30-2007, 02:20 PM

Not completely off-topic...

SecretMethod, nice Ted Leo picks.

Willravel · 08-30-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

His administration, his responsibility. (That's not to say the other people responsible shouldn't also be held accountable.)

I'm suggesting it's possible we're in a situation where there might as well be a trained seal in the oval office. He could very well just be some idiot figurehead that has no real power or decision making capabilities. It's possible.

Whether he's massively stupid, massively corrupt, or some combination, he has no business being in the oval office. He never even won the 2000 election, legally. It's been the worst presidency in American history, even dwarfing Nixon.

fresnelly · 08-30-2007, 04:39 PM

I dislike his awkward and muddled speaking style and I cringe every time I see him give an address or speech, no matter the content.

I find it hard to believe he even understands what he's saying. It's like he has to work so hard at memorizing the words that he forgets the substance in the process.

I admit this is my own base impression, but it's a hard one to shake.

ottopilot · 08-30-2007, 04:57 PM

DaveOrion · 08-30-2007, 05:57 PM

Thanks to SecretMethod70 & dc dux, my power went out and has just now come back on. I doubt I would've taken the time to dig up the examples anyway, if you dont know whats been going on for the past 7 years you must have been living under a rock, ottopilot.

shakran · 08-30-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Thanks dc-dux!

I guess I am looking for intellectual honesty when we assign blame or make judgments against anyone. I think the intense hatred for "W" has at times become politically fashionable rather than proportionately accurate. Piling on is human nature.

I'm merely listening at this point. I have no desire to challenge anyone here. I just want to hear what people are upset about in more specific terms. Going through old posts is what prompted me to ask. To be fair, I should have asked specifically why people like him so much.

If this is not worth exploring, I'm willing to bump.

It's absolutely worth exploring because I think that we should all step back from time to time and check to make sure that what we believe actually lines up with reality. In fact I think it was Bush & Co's failure to do this that has led to this "intense hatred" of him that you speak of. After 9/11 they had LOADS of fun telling us that whatever they say, goes, and if you don't agree you're an unpatriotic, un-American, freedom fry eating bastard. And sadly the country for the most part lined up like the good little sheep they were and bought into it. Now that Bush has not only failed to deliver on his promise that his actions would make us safer, but has in fact made us quite a bit less safe, those former sheep have turned into wolves and are pissed. And who can blame them? They got rooked. Royally, utterly snookered.

I'm sure you've been ripped off in the past and I'm guessing you were pretty pissed off about it. It's the same thing here, only in this case people have finally realized that. . . well I'll put it this way. In my opinion everyone currently on this forum will be dead before this mess is completely cleaned up. Knowing that is enough to make anyone angry at the man who was the architect of this situation, don't you think?

reconmike · 08-30-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm suggesting it's possible we're in a situation where there might as well be a trained seal in the oval office. He could very well just be some idiot figurehead that has no real power or decision making capabilities. It's possible.

Whether he's massively stupid, massively corrupt, or some combination, he has no business being in the oval office. He never even won the 2000 election, legally. It's been the worst presidency in American history, even dwarfing Nixon.

Will, would you like to compare this admin to the Carter administration? I think you will find Jimma the peanut farma was THE worst.

Rekna · 08-30-2007, 06:27 PM

I'd suggest people check their posts in this as it could quickly turn into a flame fest. I've said in other threads why I dislike this administration and everyone else is hitting many of my points already so i'm going to refrain.

Also anyone ever think about how much different the world could have been just because of a pretzel?

tecoyah · 08-30-2007, 06:44 PM

For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

Willravel · 08-30-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike

Will, would you like to compare this admin to the Carter administration? I think you will find Jimma the peanut farma was THE worst.

At least with Jimmy he's not massively corrupt. Yeah, he comes off a bit okey dokey, but he's more like a friendly neighbor.

Carter: Friendly Neighbor
Reagan: Cranky Grandpa
Bush1: The Usher at Church you keeps you from getting a cookie after the service
Clinton: Uncle that buys you beer and teaches you about the birds and the bees
Bush2: Jackass frat brother/kid with a rich dad that passes with all Ds

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

I wasn't around for Vietnam or Korea. People weren't ashamed then?

dc_dux · 08-30-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Thanks dc-dux!

I guess I am looking for intellectual honesty when we assign blame or make judgments against anyone. I think the intense hatred for "W" has at times become politically fashionable rather than proportionately accurate. Piling on is human nature.

I'm merely listening at this point. I have no desire to challenge anyone here. I just want to hear what people are upset about in more specific terms. Going through old posts is what prompted me to ask. To be fair, I should have asked specifically why people like him so much.

If this is not worth exploring, I'm willing to bump.

I dont hate Bush but I think he is incompetent and more importantly, immoral and unethical when it comes to honoring the public trust that was placed in him. I dont think any of the examples I listed were "piling on."

I do hate what he has done to the institution of government by anointing himself chief legislator and chief justice in addition to chief executive by unilaterally deciding ("I am the decider") what is (or is not) the law and how such laws are to be interpreted....thus obstructing Congress and the federal judiciary from performing their Constitutional responsibilities.

The Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, created a federal system that would ensure the each branch was checked by the others. Bush's actions in the examples I cited above piss on the concept of checks and balances and separation of powers.

IMO, these actions have a far greater negative impact on the public than lying to a grand jury about a private affair or covering up/obstructing justice of a break-in of a private office or certainly any shortcomings of Carter.

DaveOrion · 08-30-2007, 07:06 PM

I was only a child during the Vietnam War, but from what I know that had less to do with securing vital natural resources, as the Iraq War does, and more to do with a pissing contest with the USSR. Our troops weren't allowed to properly engage the enemy for fear of provoking the Russians into WW3. Many US civilians blamed the soldiers for the atrocities committed there, which were horrible, but unfortunalty that tends to happen when young men are trained to kill, shipped halfway around the world, and dumped into a nightmare. The soldiers never have a choice, the either go to war or go to prison. Nowadays citizens tend to blame the current regime, instead of the soldiers, which is as it should be, IMO. Governments start wars, not soldiers.

roachboy · 08-30-2007, 07:08 PM

it's the "war on terror."
everything about it.

but i' m pretty indifferent about the person of george w. bush.

dc_dux · 08-30-2007, 07:17 PM

Its not just the "war on terror".....its the dishonest attempt at justification of so many of Bush's actions, both domestic and international, subsequent to 9/11 because of the "war on terror".

Lady Sage · 08-30-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

*Wipes tear from eye* You said it all in one little line. You are one of my heroes! Rock on brother!

bermuDa · 08-30-2007, 07:56 PM

What most bothers me about Bush and company is that in all likelihood, they will not be held responsible for their actions. I can only hope that the future proves me wrong

archetypal fool · 08-30-2007, 10:21 PM

[DISCLAIMER] Some of the following pertains to the administration as a whole, but Bush undeniably allows/allowed it all to happen[/DISCLAIMER]

He's a manipulative lier (Iraq/911 connection, WMD fiasco, he's trying, and will probably succeed in sending us to war with Iran).

He's a crook (no-bid contracts with companies which have ties in the White House - there can only be one reason for this...).

He's a murderer (indirectly, but there's still blood on his hands because of insistence on a hypocritical/hopeless/illegal war).

He's a hypocrite (see previous point).

He's a religious nut who thinks "God" talks to him and approves of what he's doing.

He's a hard-headed fool (not negotiating with the Dems for funding/alternative strategies for the war).

He's idiotic (avoiding questions from the public by using stupid jokes, as evident on YouTube).

He's destroying the Constitutional foundations of this country (wire-tapping citizens, Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus for war-prisoners, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, allowing torture while lying by saying his administration doesn't).

He tries to instill religion into government/the country (predominantly selecting sub-par graduates from the Conservative Christian Regent University School of Law over more qualified ones because of different religion/politics, screening scientific papers, censures scientific information in the Grand Canyon of all places to make the Bible's alternative explanation that it was carved by Noah's Ark 4,000 years ago more prominent, does not believe in evolution*, wants to teach Creationism alongside evolution, wants heterosexual-only marriage).

Abuse of power (excessive use of Executive Privilege to protect his bunch of shit-headed aids and protect his own ass, backing that bitch Gonzalez even after he basically perjured himself in front of Congress - twice, allowed the firing of US attorneys because they were investigating too many GOPs, is basically selling our country to China's debt).

I got a little hot there at the end. I would continue, but I feel my blood-pressure rising. I may come back to finish my list later.

*Not only does he not believe in evolution, he "doesn't care about that kind of thing." The man leading this country can't be bothered to read a fucking book and learn about one of the most enlightening scientific discoveries ever made, because he "doesn't care." He's the equivalent of the idiot in high-school who doesn't care about learning anything but still gets by by cheating. It enrages me to no end that such a man can get to hold the most powerful position in the world. -- I have to go lay down for while.

I can't wait for Host to get into this discussion- it's going to be epic!

JumpinJesus · 08-30-2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

Quote:

He's the equivalent of the idiot in high-school who doesn't care about learning anything but still gets by by cheating. It enrages me to no end that such a man can get to hold the most powerful position in the world.

While I agree with both of these sentiments, what angers me most is what his presidency says about us as a nation. To me, it says to the rest of the world and to us in particular that we are too lazy as citizens to actively participate in the country our forefathers left us. We've allowed, through our own complicity, complacency, or apathy, someone like this to represent us to the world and to run roughshod over the very ideals we supposedly care so deeply about.

What does it say to us as a nation that we're not bothered enough by his actions to actually do anything about it?

Our government is supposed to fear us. It's not supposed to be the other way around. We're supposed to make demands of our president. It's not supposed to be the other way around.

Willravel · 08-30-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

While I agree with both of these sentiments, what angers me most is what his presidency says about us as a nation. To me, it says to the rest of the world and to us in particular that we are too lazy as citizens to actively participate in the country our forefathers left us. We've allowed, through our own complicity, complacency, or apathy, someone like this to represent us to the world and to run roughshod over the very ideals we supposedly care so deeply about.

What does it say to us as a nation that we're not bothered enough by his actions to actually do anything about it?

Our government is supposed to fear us. It's not supposed to be the other way around. We're supposed to make demands of our president. It's not supposed to be the other way around.

His approval rating is like 25%. 3 of every 4 people thinks he sucks. I'd say we are bothered by it, the problem is that we can't really do anything about it. Pelosi was firing off before she made speaker. Impeachment is off the table now.

I believe Bush should be impeached and there should be a full investigation. If he doesn't cooperate, which he won't, then he leaves the office immediately. Same with Cheney. If both are impeached simultaneously, Pelosi will take office. Not my first choice, but considering who's there now... yeah.

Bill O'Rights · 08-31-2007, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

No.
See...I'll never, ever be ashamed to be a citizen of the United States. I may be be embarrased by my government, and of the current circumstances, but I will not be ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermuDa

What most bothers me about Bush and company is that in all likelihood, they will not be held responsible for their actions.

I can understand that. Hell...I'll even agree with that. But, that's kinda up to all of us isn't it? It truly amazes me that we have allowed this man, and his administation to get away with so much, for so long. Says a lot about the citizenry of the United States, does it not? Hell, we even sent in a Democratic Congress to oversee this mess, and to help set matters straight. Well, that turned out to be pretty ineffectual, didn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

...we are too lazy as citizens to actively participate in the country our forefathers left us. We've allowed, through our own complicity, complacency, or apathy, someone like this to represent us to the world and to run roughshod over the very ideals we supposedly care so deeply about.

Exactly.

Personally...I see Bush more as a puppet, than I do as a President. The GOP, and their corporate overlords, may just as well have put up a cardboard cutout of Howdy Doody in front of the White House pressroom. I believe that we deserve more, but we are not going to get more until we demand it.

After 9/11, we needed strong and decisive leadership. We thought that we were getting it. Bush did look awfully good, with that bullhorn in his hand, standing atop a pile of WTC rubble, did he not? Cooler heads thought more about how they could profit from it all, and turn it to thier advantage. Such was done. Under our watch.

Midnight · 08-31-2007, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Personally...I see Bush more as a puppet, than I do as a President. The GOP, and their corporate overlords, may just as well have put up a cardboard cutout of Howdy Doody in front of the White House pressroom. I believe that we deserve more, but we are not going to get more until we demand it.

Agreed, but I still agree to a certain extent with Tec's comment. I have friends and business associates from around the world and when introduced to people internationally speaking, I'm not exactly put at ease when saying I'm an American. I've also been attacked in chatrooms for being american BECAUSE of this war - which i, as jane average from mid-america, have absolutely nothing to do with. . Let's just say, Mr President is not exactly on my good list.

dc_dux · 08-31-2007, 08:40 AM

An example from today's news....

It this kind of action by top Bush political appointees, along with intervention by affected industries, that is simply appalling.

Quote:

HHS Toned Down Breast-Feeding Ads
Formula Industry Urged Softer Campaign

In an attempt to raise the nation's historically low rate of breast-feeding, federal health officials commissioned an attention-grabbing advertising campaign a few years ago to convince mothers that their babies faced real health risks if they did not breast-feed. It featured striking photos of insulin syringes and asthma inhalers topped with rubber nipples.

Plans to run these blunt ads infuriated the politically powerful infant formula industry, which hired a former chairman of the Republican National Committee and a former top regulatory official to lobby the Health and Human Services Department. Not long afterward, department political appointees toned down the campaign.

The ads ran instead with more friendly images of dandelions and cherry-topped ice cream scoops, to dramatize how breast-feeding could help avert respiratory problems and obesity. In a February 2004 letter (pdf), the lobbyists told then-HHS Secretary Tommy G. Thompson they were "grateful" for his staff's intervention to stop health officials from "scaring expectant mothers into breast-feeding," and asked for help in scaling back more of the ads.

The formula industry's intervention -- which did not block the ads but helped change their content -- is being scrutinized by Congress in the wake of last month's testimony by former surgeon general Richard H. Carmona that the Bush administration repeatedly allowed political considerations to interfere with his efforts to promote public health...

****

Officials met with dozens of focus groups before concluding that the best way to influence mothers was to delineate in graphic terms the risks of not breast-feeding, an approach in keeping with edgy Ad Council campaigns on smoking, seat belts and drunken driving. For example, an ad portraying a nipple-tipped insulin bottle said, "Babies who aren't breastfed are 40% more likely to suffer Type 1 diabetes."

Gina Ciagne, the office's public affairs specialist for the campaign, said, "We were ready to go with our risk-based campaign -- making breast-feeding a real public health issue -- when the formula companies learned about it and came in to complain. Before long, we were told we had to water things down, get rid of the hard-hitting ads and generally make sure we didn't somehow offend."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...002198_pf.html

Bill O'Rights · 08-31-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

It this kind of action by top Bush political appointees and intervention by affected industries that is simply appalling.

Yeah...but, while that type of activity might bite an infected ass, it would've gone on no matterwho was sitting in the Whitehouse. It's political pandering, and as much as we like to smear the "other guy" with it, the truth is that no political party is immune from it.

roachboy · 08-31-2007, 09:01 AM

dc: just to clarify, i had the "war on terror" in mind in the broadest sense, to include the entire range of actions that the administration has tried to justify through it, from the attempts on cheney's part to "roll back" the notion of executive power that had developed since the vietnam period to the warantless surveillance to the debacles in iraq and afghanistan and potentially iran. all of it.

at this point, speaking strictly for myself, i find it difficult to work up the energy to rehearse the range of objections i have to this administration's actions in much detail because i feel like i am just repeating myself. while this is maybe problematic in interactions with newer members, it is nonetheless the case.

the only advantage of this is that it is easier now to link some of the various idiocies of this administration back to structural features of the american system than it once was.

i dont regard the bush squad as a particular abberation then: they are the expression of system-level incoherences AND they are in particular almost mind-boggling in their incompetence. the upside is that i think the bush squad is the most damaging blow that contemporary conservatism has yet suffered and look forward to its implosion on account of them. this keeps me chipper. the downside is that the bush squad remains in power, and so long as they are in power, they are capable of doing even more damage--and the appearance the administration is giving that they are actually considering an action against iran is an example of that.

the bush administration inhabits an ideological worldview that i regard as wholly dysfunctional, much more geared around maintaining obsolete categories than about coherence in the face of real-time complexity. i see it as a strange composite, many core elements of which are variants of neo-fascism (the nationalism, they way the bush people have used nationalism to mobilize support since 2001), others of which are simple-minded neo-liberalism (they are not necessarily identical, but in the case of this administration, they are).

i think it may be better to find oneself in a position of being able to see the administration in a cold-blooded way. getting all snarky seems a distraction, a waste of energy.

dc_dux · 08-31-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Yeah...but, while that type of activity might bite an infected ass, it would've gone on no matterwho was sitting in the Whitehouse. It's political pandering, and as much as we like to smear the "other guy" with it, the truth is that no political party is immune from it.

I agree that it is not the first or will it be the last administration to act in such a manner.

Replacing a rubber nipple covered insulin needle in an ad with a cherry-topped ice cream scoop is not the issue as much as it is representative of how the Bush administration has far exceeded others in such practices of allowing major contributors to influence the messages (particularly when it comes to science and medicine) of the federal goverment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

....

... the upside is that i think the bush squad is the most damaging blow that contemporary conservatism has yet suffered and look forward to its implosion on account of them. this keeps me chipper. the downside is that the bush squad remains in power, and so long as they are in power, they are capable of doing even more damage--and the appearance the administration is giving that they are actually considering an action against iran is an example of that.

i think it may be better to find oneself in a position of being able to see the administration in a cold-blooded way. getting all snarky seems a distraction, a waste of energy.

roach...I agree with your upside and your downside.

I'm still pretty laid back and not all that snarky.

But I am counting down.....507 days, 23 hours, 48 minutes, 33 seconds

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2005/01/bush_countdown.html

ratbastid · 08-31-2007, 10:12 AM

filtherton · 08-31-2007, 10:31 AM

I, for one, appreciate the efforts made by bush, rove, rumsfeld, cheney, et al, to expose and discredit neoconservatism. It is unfortunate that we actually had to experience it firsthand to realize what a foolish philosophy it is.

ottopilot · 08-31-2007, 11:38 AM

archetypal fool · 08-31-2007, 11:47 AM

I think these questions would be best address in another thread. There's a problem with the system as a whole - but I won't delve deeply into that discussion here.

dc_dux · 08-31-2007, 01:41 PM

Otto...your original question was answered and documented with sources by some of the respondents. Yet you appear to shrug them off with more questions rather than address them. We've seen that tactic before.

I dont see any reason to delve more deeptly into the discussion either.

ottopilot · 08-31-2007, 02:08 PM

dc_dux · 08-31-2007, 02:14 PM

Just for the record, in the 9 months that the Democrats have held the majority in Congress, they have addressed many of the abuses of the Bush administration through oversight hearings and new legislative initiatives.

In others, most particularly the war, they have tried unsuccessfully to build consensus for a veto-proof majority and have failed.

08-30-2007, 01:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:20 AM..

08-30-2007, 01:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	My anger stems from the fact that GW is a liar, mass murderer, war criminal, and an insecure tiny little man who has attempted to circumvent the constitution, replace the Bill Of Rights, sown the seeds of fear in order to further his own agenda, and is a major embarrassment because of his inability to construct a simple sentence. Thats All. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-30-2007, 01:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:40 AM..

08-30-2007, 01:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	To name just a few things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismiss...ys_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_leak_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...ml?source=mypi (Cheney claims he's not part of the executive OR legislative branch) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war (setting aside that we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it's been horrendously mismanaged and continues to be) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden (instead of focusing on Iraq, we should have always had our top efforts on this guy) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan (and now Afghanistan is going south due to our lack of attention as well) see dc_dux's post below for more __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 08-31-2007 at 02:56 AM..

08-30-2007, 02:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97421 __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

08-30-2007, 02:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	His words are not only foolish, but truly hateful. Beyond that, I'm not 100% sure how much of the catastrophes during his presidency he's actually responsible for.

08-30-2007, 02:20 PM	#9 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	Not completely off-topic... SecretMethod, nice Ted Leo picks. __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-30-2007, 04:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	I dislike his awkward and muddled speaking style and I cringe every time I see him give an address or speech, no matter the content. I find it hard to believe he even understands what he's saying. It's like he has to work so hard at memorizing the words that he forgets the substance in the process. I admit this is my own base impression, but it's a hard one to shake. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

08-30-2007, 04:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:39 AM..

08-30-2007, 05:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Thanks to SecretMethod70 & dc dux, my power went out and has just now come back on. I doubt I would've taken the time to dig up the examples anyway, if you dont know whats been going on for the past 7 years you must have been living under a rock, ottopilot. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-30-2007, 06:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I'd suggest people check their posts in this as it could quickly turn into a flame fest. I've said in other threads why I dislike this administration and everyone else is hitting many of my points already so i'm going to refrain. Also anyone ever think about how much different the world could have been just because of a pretzel?

08-30-2007, 06:44 PM	#17 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	For the first time in my entire life....I am ashamed to be a citizen of the United States.

08-30-2007, 07:06 PM	#20 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I was only a child during the Vietnam War, but from what I know that had less to do with securing vital natural resources, as the Iraq War does, and more to do with a pissing contest with the USSR. Our troops weren't allowed to properly engage the enemy for fear of provoking the Russians into WW3. Many US civilians blamed the soldiers for the atrocities committed there, which were horrible, but unfortunalty that tends to happen when young men are trained to kill, shipped halfway around the world, and dumped into a nightmare. The soldiers never have a choice, the either go to war or go to prison. Nowadays citizens tend to blame the current regime, instead of the soldiers, which is as it should be, IMO. Governments start wars, not soldiers. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-30-2007, 07:08 PM	#21 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it's the "war on terror." everything about it. but i' m pretty indifferent about the person of george w. bush. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-30-2007, 07:17 PM	#22 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Its not just the "war on terror".....its the dishonest attempt at justification of so many of Bush's actions, both domestic and international, subsequent to 9/11 because of the "war on terror". __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

08-30-2007, 07:56 PM	#24 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	What most bothers me about Bush and company is that in all likelihood, they will not be held responsible for their actions. I can only hope that the future proves me wrong __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

08-30-2007, 10:21 PM	#25 (permalink)
archetypal fool Crazy Location: Florida	Here we go.... [DISCLAIMER] Some of the following pertains to the administration as a whole, but Bush undeniably allows/allowed it all to happen[/DISCLAIMER] He's a manipulative lier (Iraq/911 connection, WMD fiasco, he's trying, and will probably succeed in sending us to war with Iran). He's a crook (no-bid contracts with companies which have ties in the White House - there can only be one reason for this...). He's a murderer (indirectly, but there's still blood on his hands because of insistence on a hypocritical/hopeless/illegal war). He's a hypocrite (see previous point). He's a religious nut who thinks "God" talks to him and approves of what he's doing. He's a hard-headed fool (not negotiating with the Dems for funding/alternative strategies for the war). He's idiotic (avoiding questions from the public by using stupid jokes, as evident on YouTube). He's destroying the Constitutional foundations of this country (wire-tapping citizens, Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus for war-prisoners, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, allowing torture while lying by saying his administration doesn't). He tries to instill religion into government/the country (predominantly selecting sub-par graduates from the Conservative Christian Regent University School of Law over more qualified ones because of different religion/politics, screening scientific papers, censures scientific information in the Grand Canyon of all places to make the Bible's alternative explanation that it was carved by Noah's Ark 4,000 years ago more prominent, does not believe in evolution, wants to teach Creationism alongside evolution, wants heterosexual-only marriage). Abuse of power (excessive use of Executive Privilege to protect his bunch of shit-headed aids and protect his own ass, backing that bitch Gonzalez even after he basically perjured himself in front of Congress - twice, allowed the firing of US attorneys because they were investigating too many GOPs, is basically selling our country to China's debt). I got a little hot there at the end. I would continue, but I feel my blood-pressure rising. I may come back to finish my list later. Not only does he not believe in evolution, he "doesn't care about that kind of thing." The man leading this country can't be bothered to read a fucking book and learn about one of the most enlightening scientific discoveries ever made, because he "doesn't care." He's the equivalent of the idiot in high-school who doesn't care about learning anything but still gets by by cheating. It enrages me to no end that such a man can get to hold the most powerful position in the world. -- I have to go lay down for while. I can't wait for Host to get into this discussion- it's going to be epic! __________________ I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

08-31-2007, 09:01 AM	#32 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	dc: just to clarify, i had the "war on terror" in mind in the broadest sense, to include the entire range of actions that the administration has tried to justify through it, from the attempts on cheney's part to "roll back" the notion of executive power that had developed since the vietnam period to the warantless surveillance to the debacles in iraq and afghanistan and potentially iran. all of it. at this point, speaking strictly for myself, i find it difficult to work up the energy to rehearse the range of objections i have to this administration's actions in much detail because i feel like i am just repeating myself. while this is maybe problematic in interactions with newer members, it is nonetheless the case. the only advantage of this is that it is easier now to link some of the various idiocies of this administration back to structural features of the american system than it once was. i dont regard the bush squad as a particular abberation then: they are the expression of system-level incoherences AND they are in particular almost mind-boggling in their incompetence. the upside is that i think the bush squad is the most damaging blow that contemporary conservatism has yet suffered and look forward to its implosion on account of them. this keeps me chipper. the downside is that the bush squad remains in power, and so long as they are in power, they are capable of doing even more damage--and the appearance the administration is giving that they are actually considering an action against iran is an example of that. the bush administration inhabits an ideological worldview that i regard as wholly dysfunctional, much more geared around maintaining obsolete categories than about coherence in the face of real-time complexity. i see it as a strange composite, many core elements of which are variants of neo-fascism (the nationalism, they way the bush people have used nationalism to mobilize support since 2001), others of which are simple-minded neo-liberalism (they are not necessarily identical, but in the case of this administration, they are). i think it may be better to find oneself in a position of being able to see the administration in a cold-blooded way. getting all snarky seems a distraction, a waste of energy. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-31-2007, 10:12 AM	#34 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder

08-31-2007, 10:31 AM	#35 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I, for one, appreciate the efforts made by bush, rove, rumsfeld, cheney, et al, to expose and discredit neoconservatism. It is unfortunate that we actually had to experience it firsthand to realize what a foolish philosophy it is.

08-31-2007, 11:38 AM	#36 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:39 AM..

08-31-2007, 11:47 AM	#37 (permalink)
archetypal fool Crazy Location: Florida	I think these questions would be best address in another thread. There's a problem with the system as a whole - but I won't delve deeply into that discussion here. __________________ I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

08-31-2007, 01:41 PM	#38 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Otto...your original question was answered and documented with sources by some of the respondents. Yet you appear to shrug them off with more questions rather than address them. We've seen that tactic before. I dont see any reason to delve more deeptly into the discussion either. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

08-31-2007, 02:08 PM	#39 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:37 AM..

08-31-2007, 02:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Just for the record, in the 9 months that the Democrats have held the majority in Congress, they have addressed many of the abuses of the Bush administration through oversight hearings and new legislative initiatives. In others, most particularly the war, they have tried unsuccessfully to build consensus for a veto-proof majority and have failed. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire