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Old 07-31-2007, 07:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Soviet Socialism Reborn... ?!

It seems the ever mounting pile of evidence has no end of growth in sight. A few months back I read an article attacking the Kremlin for their taking over much of the Russian media. On of the interesting points in that article (and if anyone can find it, please link/quote it here) was the Putin had demanded that state-run media outlets talking about the US paint the Americans people as enemies of Russia.

On my daily perusal of Digg the other day, I came across this beauty. The article is as follows:

Quote:
Sex for the motherland: Russian youths encouraged to procreate at camp
By EDWARD LUCAS - Last updated at 08:35am on 29th July 2007

Article Body   click to show 
Sorry, I know it was long. I wonder, though, if anyone else worries about a new cold war truly developing in the same way as the old?
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:24 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Russia will have to combine with China to be anywhere near their former military or economic capabilities. It would only be then that another cold war could develop involving Russia. It's more likely that if the US is involved in another cold war it will be with China. The thing is, we have much stronger economic ties to China now than we had to Russia after WWII, so a cold war would be foolish.

On a side note, I'M GOIN TO RUSSIA!
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't know that I'm so worried about it being something from the past reborn, but it being a new monster, building on the experiences of the past, pulling bits from Stalinist and Fascist playbooks as they are useful to create an even more effective dictatorial regime.

Russia is an aggressive world power that has been down on the mat for a while. That makes it ripe for the kind of appeals to nationalism that autocratic regimes make. While Russia's military as a whole is decrepit, Putin has funneled money into key strategic areas such as space and nuclear forces, a sort of flag staking that indicates a desire to retain Russia's military position in the world until she recovers enough to fill in the holes.

I see China as a stronger and more difficult threat to deal with over the next 20-30 years. Russia is at least not subtle in how they approach things. That's not a knock on them, just an observation. China's strategy is much more nuanced and at least right now, has much greater momentum behind it.

None-the-less, Russia warrants a close eye over the coming years, for they are not about to accept a back-bench role in the world sitting down.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board. They can now emigrate to Russia and put their money where their mouth is. Surely income distribution and civil rights are free for all in the worker's paradise right? Surely there is free health care, no income gap, no gangsters in mother Russia? Surely one is free to express themselves freely without fear or repression? It's Pravda in, Prada out.

Russia is a non-issue. I still don't know why they are a member of the G8.

Last edited by jorgelito; 07-31-2007 at 05:57 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board.
Wow.....shades of Joe McCarthy.

Care to name any of those "left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists on this board" so they can respond to your blanket condemnation?
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Old 07-31-2007, 11:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Calm down, where is this blanket condemnation you speak of? So many of you boast of your left leanings and love of Marx and Socialism, if that's what you are, that's what you are.

Shades of Joe McCarthy? Tsk, tsk...
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board. They can now emigrate to Russia and put their money where their mouth is. Surely income distribution and civil rights are free for all in the worker's paradise right? Surely there is free health care, no income gap, no gangsters in mother Russia? Surely one is free to express themselves freely without fear or repression? It's Pravda in, Prada out.

Russia is a non-issue. I still don't know why they are a member of the G8.
Why would two US agencies display info on the web that contradicts almost everything you posted about Russia.....strong respect there for privacy, solvent government, big sustainable trade surplus....they seem strong where we are weak....protected from unreasonable search by judicial review, energy independent, strong fundamentals to support their currency....

Quote:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78835.htm
Russia

Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
March 6, 2007


.....The law states that officials may enter a private residence only in cases prescribed by federal law or on the basis of a judicial decision; however, authorities did not always observe these provisions.

The law permits the government to monitor correspondence, telephone conversations, and other means of communication only with judicial permission and prohibits the collection, storage, utilization, and dissemination of information about a person's private life without his consent. While these provisions were generally followed, problems remained. There were accounts of electronic surveillance by government officials and others without judicial permission, and of entry into residences and other premises by Moscow law enforcement without warrants. There were no reports of government action against officials who violated these safeguards.
Quote:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/rs.html

Russia

Public debt:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
8% of GDP (2006 est.)

Oil - production:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
9.4 million bbl/day (2005 est.)
Oil - consumption:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
2.5 million bbl/day (2005 est.)
Oil - exports:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
7 million bbl/day (2005)

Exports:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$317.6 billion (2006 est.)

Imports:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$171.5 billion (2006 est.)

Reserves of foreign exchange and gold:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$314.5 billion (2006 est.)
Debt - external:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$287.4 billion (30 June 2006 est.)
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Calm down, where is this blanket condemnation you speak of? So many of you boast of your left leanings and love of Marx and Socialism, if that's what you are, that's what you are.

Shades of Joe McCarthy? Tsk, tsk...
McCarthyism was built on blanket characterizations of "left leaning" as a love of Marx and Socialism in the same manner as your two posts.

I dont recall anyone here proclaiming a love of Marx and socialism. Perhaps you can correct me and point me to specific posts of "so many of us" left leaners. If you cant, then you're full of shit and no better than old Joe McCarthy in your red baiting.

I do recall this exchange between Bush and Colin Powell after Bush's first meeting with Putin:
As Powell recalled it after the meeting he and Bush were reviewing events and comparing notes and seemingly they disagreed. At one point Bush looked at his Secretary of State and said “Powell, I looked into Putin’s eyes and I saw his soul” to which Powell replied: “Mr. President, I looked into President Putin’s eyes and I saw the KGB”.
Bush, that marxist socialist commie lover....tsk tsk
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:19 AM   #9 (permalink)
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For the record, I know of at least two members of this board that are Marxists. I'll let them reveal themselves if they choose to do so. That said, I think that everyone needs to refocus on the OP.

I sincerely doubt that Russia is going restore the Communists to power. If anything, they're going to swing towards the right. Putin has no love for the Communist Party and views them as one of the only significant challenges to his power, not that he really has to worry about that with a 70+% approval rating. Putin may have been KGB, but equating the KGB or the NKVD or any of the predecessor agencies as the home of the true believers in the communist cause is just plain old ignorant. If you're going to make that kind of statement, then I'll just go ahead and pre-emptively tell you that you don't know what you're talking about and that ALL the evidence is to the contrary.

And jorgelito, any nation with the second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and that is the second largest exporter of oil is not a "non-entity".
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:28 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Why would two US agencies display info on the web that contradicts almost everything you posted about Russia.....strong respect there for privacy, solvent government, big sustainable trade surplus....they seem strong where we are weak....protected from unreasonable search by judicial review, energy independent, strong fundamentals to support their currency....
Give me a break...

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not because the article you posted says authorities don't even follow their own search and seizure law. Sounds similar to another administration's policy that we've all grown to love if you ask me.

I'm gonna have to agree with Jorgelito on this one. Don't they have the highest alcohol abuse rates of any country? Electronic surveilence badges, re-education camps, sounds like a hell pit to me.

Bush looked in to Putin's eyes and saw a man he can trust. That's all I need to know about their government.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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DC, calm down, obviously I have hit a sore spot with you. You can hit the back button you know. Fuck you if you think I am full of shit. I for one am tired of all the double standards around here. You don't know me so don't presume you know anything about me. If you can't recall anyone here having left leanings, socialist or Marx leanings then you have not been reading any posts to have conveniently looked past it.

McCarthy was the worst type of human being. I do not appreciate being compared to him. Red baiting? Nice try. I don't think so. But if you have to resort to personal attacks on me, well so be it. For the record, I thought you were better than this.

Jazz, Russia may be relevant in terms of nuclear cooperation but with regards to the G8, a group of the top 8 economies, I don't think so. That's my objection.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
DC, calm down,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Fuck you if you think I am full of shit.
Please, take your own advice. Let's not say anything in here that we don't mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board.
I love being a lefty, and I am a big fan of Marx. It's a shame that Russia botched his work so badly. Russia was never really a functional Socialist society because of the high level of corruption. It's the unfortunate reality of socialism: as the society under socialism becomes larger, it is less and less likely to succeed. The same is true of many forms of government. Socialism works better on the level of city-state or even village than anything else. A constitutional republic like the US could thrive with socialist systems (police force, for example) as opposed to a privatized force, but I don't think the US would make a good socialist nation. Most people here are wired towards the capitalist economic theories, anyway.

The reality is that Russia is a mess right now. They are in a state of relative desperation, unwilling to accept that they will not see the power they once held for at least several generations. They hold nuclear weapons, of course, but they are not anywhere near as powerful in an economic or military stance as they once were. I can't imagine how difficult it will someday be when the US is no longer a superpower, but I suspect that the process will be similar to what the Soviet Union did over the past 20 years and will no doubt continue to do for the next decade, depending on how well they can get on with China.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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jorgelito...I simply asked you to point out examples of posts that would justifly calling ANY left-leaners here "America haters" and "Marx worshipers".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board.
Having been called anti-American by several TFP members in the past because of my left-leaning posts, I thought it was a cheap shot against liberal here, partticularly without naming names or providing specifics. If you know your history, that was a McCarthy tactic.

I know there are members here who believe in many socialists ideals, but that doesnt make them "America haters".

Telling me to fuck off doesnt change baseless charges of "America hating" against unidentified TFP members.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:45 PM   #14 (permalink)
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=116320

If you all haven't read this, you need to do so immediately.

jorgelito, your post might have gotten a PM with a general suggestion to take a deep breath before posting in this thread again. As it stands, we really don't have leeway when you say "fuck you if..." The rules leave no room since there's no other interpretation of that statement than a personal attack. Unfortunately, the rules also state that a personal attack in Politics is an automatic 3-day suspension.

We take no pleasure in this, and we wish that there were other options, but you've left us no choice. Everyone else should take this to heart, and we can hopefully avoid this kind of behavior in the future.

If someone attacks you personally, your best bet is not to respond. Hit the warning button, and let the staff handle it. Personal attacks in this forum are a tar baby, and we don't have a problem banning everyone attached.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
jorgelito...I simply asked you to point out examples of posts that would justifly calling ANY left-leaners here "America haters".
Fair enough. I can understand that. "America haters" would be my interpretation of all the mudslinging that goes on around here. Everything else is fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Having been called anti-American by several TFP members in the past, I thought it was a cheap shot against liberal here, partticularly without naming names or providing specifics. If you know your history, that was a McCarthy tactic.
Well, certainly not by me, I haven't seen that. As far as a cheap shot, I felt that it was the only way I could illustrate how the others feel. That's the same type of post that occurs far too often, especially the numerous cheap shots attacking the moderate, the conservatives, Libertarians, religious people etc. I am tired of it which is why I posted it the way I did. Most of my pleas for moderation or calm discussion goes ignored. It seems like the only way to make a point around here is to resort to the same tactics that everyone else uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Telling me to fuck off doesnt change your cowardly charges of "America hating" against unidentified TFP members.
I disagree with your insult of "cowardly charges". I told you to fuck off if you really believe I am full of shit as I thought that was a rude and unnecessary attack on me by you (rather unusual too as you are normally eloquent and reasoned with your posts regardless of whether or not I agree with them). My strong reaction was elicited by your reply post.

I stand by my calling out. I didn't feel the need to post a list or links to threads because they are so numerous.

I disagree. I was responding to a personal attack.

Last edited by jorgelito; 08-01-2007 at 12:50 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i don't think that putin does socialistic policy. but it is correct that he uses strong means to stabilize russia and his power. and from this point of view his policy is succesfull and good for russia. remember the devastating results of the jelzin era for the russian people...

the communists in russia are the real conservatives and demonstrate against putin. who should rule russia? putin or someone from the communist party? thus it is a completely different picture like in many states of the western society if you try to describe the modern russia with terms like conservative or socialistic.

on the one hand russia did very well in the past to avoid the duch disease. russia is now a stabilized state. this is very important because nobody wants an insecure state with a big nuclear arsenal. also russia provides europe with oil and gas and has now a strong economy. on the other hand is russia still in a transformation process and has to struggle with a decreasing population. in the west of russia the US and the EU get more influence. and in the east of russia grows china. and the relationship between china and russia was since Mao very difficult...
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Old 08-11-2007, 06:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Anytime the term motherland, fatherland, or homeland comes up - I get worried.
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Old 08-12-2007, 05:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Has anyone here traveled to Russia or have any dealings with anyone there now or from there over the last 5 years?
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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The greatest growth in soviet-style government is here in the US. The Bush administration has placed politically-indoctrinated commissars at virtually every level of government, editing scientific research papers and suppressing others which don't conform to the administration's ideology.

Personally, I don't take the pronouncements of the Bush administration any more seriously than I took those of the Kremlin at the height of the cold war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Well that should be great news for all the left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists including the ones on this board.
Tell us, jorgelito, is introspection only performed by left-leaning, America hating, Marx worshiping socialists?

Last edited by fooie; 08-12-2007 at 10:36 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-12-2007, 03:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooie
The greatest growth in soviet-style government is here in the US. The Bush administration has placed politically-indoctrinated commissars at virtually every level of government, editing scientific research papers and suppressing others which don't conform to the administration's ideology
While this might be soviet-style, it isn't socialism. If anything, the current U.S. government is driven by theocratic elements.

It's a bit of a stretch, either way, to assume that things such as socialism and theocracies are indicators of a failed democracy. A failed democracy occurs with the corruption of power. In the case of the U.S., there may be a number of causes: corporate greed, religious zealotry, racism, elitism, etc.

Russia is a different case altogether. As a post-Soviet system, Russian "democracy" is more of an oligarchy informed by a dramatic and violent past. It will never be the same; not when you can manipulate a capitalist system with much better results than having manipulated a socialist system. Russia's still working out the kinks, but give them time. They will learn much by observing China. The East will rise like never before, and America doesn't have the wherewithal to do anything about it. They've become too much of a passive market when you consider the impact of globalization. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing Russia export far more goods and services than we've seen.
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Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 08-12-2007 at 03:01 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:25 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Interesting. I actually got the impression that the Chinese learnt from Russia.

My second-hand, half-formed, incomplete understanding from-a-distance view, was that the Chinese saw what happens when hard-core "rationalist" economists are sent in. And they decided that no, there's no point considering that path. That when it comes to uncontrolled reform or crackdown - a crackdown is necessary to "protect the state".

Of course... I live miles away. I have no direct knowledge of what is going on. As implied.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:36 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimetic
Interesting. I actually got the impression that the Chinese learnt from Russia.
I'm sure this is the case. But as China has shown some great economic success, I think they will learn from each other. Sure a lot of it has to do with demographics and global trends, but let's not discount what Russia has to offer.
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
It's only a matter of time before we start seeing Russia export far more goods and services than we've seen.
Doubtful.

First of all Russia is the only major power with a declining population. 141 Million and falling due to low birth rates and high death rates. Then to add to that, whenever someone in Russia gets a good education, they jump on the first opportunity that gets them on a plane out of the country.

From my personal view when I traveled to Russia last January, I found it astonishing how my flight into Russia from Germany had very few people on board and most were Germans. My flight leaving Russia for Germany was packed full of Russians.

While I was there, I sat in on a lesson of a 15yr old girl learing English. I asked her why English and why specifically the American style of English. She answered that she wanted to go to America. Most Russians who learn a foreign language leave Russia. And even Russians who don't learn a language but learn a skill also leave, then figure out the other country's language later. My wife is Russian, I met her parents in Portugal. Her father went there for work and then learned Portuguese, her mother followed later. As my wife has told me, when a Russian recieves an education and becomes smart, they see what is in Russia and they see what is in other countries. The decision becomes simple; leave Russia.

Before Russia can become an industrialized nation with an economy that can be felt globally, they have to find a way to stop the mass exodus of their own people. And unfortunatly, the only idea I heard was to return to the soviet way of closing the border exits to Russians. To me that does not sound promising.

The other reason I consider it doubtful that Russia will be a major exporter of goods (other than weapons) is that when I was there, I could not see a single Russian name in the stores. Everything was foreign made (oddly just like the US). With exception to weapons and military tech, Russia is severly lacking in domestic production facilities. And any foreign investment to create such production inside Russia is drying up because of Putin's policies of kicking foreign business out of Russia. And as for domestic sources of money to spur investmet; as my wife has told me, the only people in Russia with money are either in the (corrupt) Government, or in organized crime.
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirevolver
Doubtful.
Au contraire.

Although Russia had some real tough times in the '90s, they are currently one of the fastest-growing G-8 economies and has been so for the past few years.

As an oil-rich nation, it has been banking on high oil prices and has been reinvesting the money into other industries--the aviation industry is just one example. One of the factors that hindered (or hobbled) Russia in the '90s was a post-collapse readjustment of the economy and weak oil prices.

One of the challenges Russia faces despite this growth is that they are having trouble keeping inflation in check. But if they do solve this, they are one to watch along with the likes of China and India...they have a lot of room for growth. And, for the record, foreign investment in Russia is actually growing, and at quite a rate.

I understand the value of your anecdotal evidence, and I personally found it interesting, but I'm not convinced it is representative of a trillion-dollar economy. Sure the Russian government is corrupt, but so is China's. That hasn't stopped them from growing.
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