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Old 07-13-2007, 03:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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My turn to bring up Clinton

Quote:
President Is Denied Executive Privilege

By Peter Baker and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, May 6, 1998;

A federal judge has ruled that President Clinton cannot use the power of his office to block prosecutors from questioning his senior aides, rejecting Clinton's assertion of executive privilege in the Monica S. Lewinsky investigation, lawyers familiar with the decision said yesterday.

In a ruling issued under court seal Monday, Chief U.S. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson concluded that independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr's need to collect evidence in his obstruction of justice probe outweighs Clinton's interest in preserving the confidentiality of White House discussions, the lawyers said.

The decision made Clinton the first president to take a claim of executive privilege to court and lose since the dramatic Watergate showdown in 1974, when the Supreme Court unanimously ordered Richard M. Nixon to turn over the secret Oval Office tapes that ultimately led to his resignation. Clinton's case also seems headed for the high court as sources indicated that the White House likely will appeal.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...tarr050698.htm

As it would seem those supporting Bush, generally revert to comparing the misdeeds of Bill Clinton as a defense, I ask them to make this comparison in good faith. Personally, I fully agreed with the court ruling, and felt he had no right to block the investigation (whitewater) though I kinda giggled over the Lewinsky scandal. Clinton was denied executive privilege, just as Nixon was before him when the investigation became serious.

Please explain why it is that you can support one mans privilege.....and not the others.

Hmmm....33 views and not a single comment. Could it be that those continuously bringing up Clinton to defend Bush are speechless?


Somehow....I doubt it very much.

Last edited by tecoyah; 07-13-2007 at 10:08 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...tarr050698.htm

As it would seem those supporting Bush, generally revert to comparing the misdeeds of Bill Clinton as a defense, I ask them to make this comparison in good faith. Personally, I fully agreed with the court ruling, and felt he had no right to block the investigation (whitewater) though I kinda giggled over the Lewinsky scandal. Clinton was denied executive privilege, just as Nixon was before him when the investigation became serious.

Please explain why it is that you can support one mans privilege.....and not the others.

Hmmm....33 views and not a single comment. Could it be that those continuously bringing up Clinton to defend Bush are speechless?


Somehow....I doubt it very much.
I have no problem with Congress pursuing criminal charges and investigations against members of a Presidential administration or the President. Congress has a legitimate role to play. However, I am not surprised when the President, Clinton, Bush, whoever, puts up a fight. I expect it.

In a test of wills, he who has the strongest convictions will win. I don't want to hear members of Congress acting like children-saying the President isn't playing fair. They need to find their "balls" and do what they think needs to be done, or shut up.

The Congressional investigations of Clinton were partisan politics at its worst (at least in my lifetime). Democrats have not reached that level with Bush, perhaps they need more time.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:11 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...tarr050698.htm

As it would seem those supporting Bush, generally revert to comparing the misdeeds of Bill Clinton as a defense, I ask them to make this comparison in good faith. Personally, I fully agreed with the court ruling, and felt he had no right to block the investigation (whitewater) though I kinda giggled over the Lewinsky scandal. Clinton was denied executive privilege, just as Nixon was before him when the investigation became serious.

Please explain why it is that you can support one mans privilege.....and not the others.

Hmmm....33 views and not a single comment. Could it be that those continuously bringing up Clinton to defend Bush are speechless?


Somehow....I doubt it very much.
Or maybe those 33 views agree with you. What are you looking for?
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, I for one agree with the OP.

Perhaps it would've helped to include a poll?
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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But these are the times he did use it and the scandals that he protected with it.

Quote:
1993 - to block an inspection of Vince Foster's files after his suicide
1994 - to block turning over documents from its ethics review regarding Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy
1995 - to block lawyer's notes from conversations with Hillary Clinton
1996 - to block turning over documents relating to arms shipments from Iran to Bosnia
1996 - to block turning over a memo by FBI Director Louis Freeh criticizing the drug policy
1996 - to block turning over documents subpoenaed concerning Haiti police violence
1996 - to block turning over Travel Office documents
1997 - to block turning over campaign finance related records
1997 - to block testimony of Bruce Lindsey concerning James Riady - campaign finance
1997 - to block turning over documents pertaining to cancellation of an Indian casino
1998 - to block testimony of Paul Begala - filegate
1998 - to block grand jury testimony of Bruce Lindsey and Sidney Blumenthal - Lewinsky
1998 - to block grand jury testimony of Bruce Lindsey ("attorney client") - Lewinsky
1998 - to block Secret Service testimony - Lewinsky (new privilege, "protective function") - Lewinksy
1998 - to block answers to 2 questions Hillary Clinton ("spousal privilege") - Whitewater
RDMHQ Funding Document
Secret 3rd privilege claim.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm in 100% agreement, tec. The double standard is obvious and sickening.

I will admit that it's lowered my opinion of Clinton a bit, though. I know he wasn't the perfect president, but considering our current leadership he can often look almost perfect by comparison. I guess a little perspective can help from time to time.

Bush does not have the legal authority to use executive privilege to block any inquisitions into his connection with the bypassing of the FISA court.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
But these are the times he did use it and the scandals that he protected with it.
No argument there, BUT, two wrongs don't make a right. I don't really think it is relevant to compare the two side by side in that manner, it detracts from the issue at hand.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Let's not forget the Socks scandal!
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:01 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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What do you call a political party that thinks postage for a Presidential cat's fan club requires a full-on Congressional investigation, but a President who admits on national television to breaking Federal law, repeatedly, only merits limited committee "oversight"?

Republicans.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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dc...don't you think Socks looks a bit like HITLER?
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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What was Sockgate, did it have something to do with Whitewater? I wasn't in the country during much of Clinton's Administration, when I came back Stateside, we were fully entrenched in the Lewinsky Affair.

One thing's for certain, the Bush Administration has truly shaken our foundation of government.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Socksgate:

1995: Rep. Dan Burton (R-IN), then chair of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee, investigated whether taxpayers were footing the cost of stationery and postage for the fan club dedicated to President Clinton’s cat, Socks. (They were not - and it turns out Barbara Bush’s dog Millie had a fan club too.)

elph: socks looks less ominous in person unless he is provoked. I met him at the annual WH easter egg hunt one year. The easter bunny (Tipper Gore) was holding him right before two crazy mothers knocked the easter bunny down and starting fighting to get an easter egg.....Socks was not happy.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Socksgate:

1995: Rep. Dan Burton (R-IN), then chair of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee, investigated whether taxpayers were footing the cost of stationery and postage for the fan club dedicated to President Clinton’s cat, Socks. (They were not - and it turns out Barbara Bush’s dog Millie had a fan club too.)
Thanks DC, I couldn't tell if you and Elph were being serious or not, it seemed so ridiculous. I remember now why I left Washington, DC and the world of politics. It's these bs and petty bickerings that truly harm our nation.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
But these are the times he did use it and the scandals that he protected with it.
Since odds are slim that Bush and his administration could withstand anything similar to the unprecedented, unrelenting, and unethical, eight years investigation of the "white water" special prosecutors, and come out as unscathed as Clinton, his wife, and closest associates ended up, when "IT" was finally over....I'm compelled to stoop near to reconmike's tactic of posting what he displayed, without a link to it's source.....a partisan blogger....by posting this informative rebuttal....though.....with a link:
Quote:
http://www.socalsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10273
Old 03-22-2007

The "Clinton did it" defense......
Perhaps the more telling comparison is the difference between the number of times Clinton aides actually DID testify, under oath, and the number of times Bush aids have done so. According to <a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31351.pdf">the Congressional Research Service</a>, under President Clinton, 31 of his top aides testified on <a href="http://www.rollcall.com/issues/52_95/news/17610-1.html">47 different occasions</a>. The aides who testified included some of Clinton’s closest advisors:

<b>Harold Ickes</b>, Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief of Staff - 7/28/94
<b>George Stephanopoulos</b>, Senior Adviser to the President for Policy and Strategy - 8/4/94
<b>John Podesta</b>, Assistant to the President and Staff Secretary - 8/5/94
<b>Bruce R. Lindsey<b>, Assistant to the President and Deputy Counsel to the President - 1/16/96
<b>Samuel Berger</b>, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs - 9/11/97
<b>Beth Nolan</b>, Counsel to the President - 5/4/00

In contrast, between 2000 and 2004, <h3>Bush allowed only one of his closest advisers, then-Assistant to the President for Homeland Security Tom Ridge, to appear in front of Congress. He has also refused three invitations from Congress for his aides to testify, a first since President Richard Nixon in 1972. Clinton did not refuse any.</h3>

CRS also notes that although “White House aides do not testify before congressional committees in a regular basis…<a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31351.pdf">under certain conditions they do</a>. First, intense and escalating political embarrassment may convince the White House that it is in the interest of the President to have these aides testify and ventilate the issue fully. Second, initial White House resistance may give way in the face of concerted congressional and public pressure.”

The real point here is that the claim of "executive priviledge" has very little basis in the law and has almost universally been rejected by the Supreme Court, e.g. the Nixon tapes case. Given that fact, the only real reason to assert such a claim is to attempt to run out the clock and avoid disclosure of embarassing truths. The President whll hope the case is not expedited and will take at least 20 months to work its way from District Court to the Court of Appeals to the Supreme Court.

The President demand that his staffers only be interviewed, but not under oath and without transcript, is so they can lie to Congress without legal consequences (I guess we should give him credit from learning something from the Libby case). The interesting issue is why? If no crime has been commited, let them testify (truthfully) take the political heat (it'll blow over) and move on. Apparently it is not so easy, as it actually may be a crime (obstruction of justice) for the President's office to interfere with ongoing criminal investigations. Arguably, firing the lead prosecutor to shut down a prosecution of a political ally would fit that criteria.
0...so, the Congressional Research Office supports the opinion that the Clinton administration was cooperative and accountable to Congress in a reasonable and a consistent fashion, and the Bush administration has not been,,,,

The following was written in March....the thugs in the executive branch are bolder (cornered ?) now:
Quote:
www.rollcall.com/issues/52_95/news/17610-1.html
www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032007F.shtml

Rove as Hill Witness Would Be SRO Event
By Rachel Van Dongen
Roll Call

Monday 19 March 2007

The Senate Judiciary Committee's effort to land presidential adviser Karl Rove as a witness runs headlong into the Bush White House's well-established reluctance to subject high-level staffers or internal documents to Congressional scrutiny.

But intense political pressure surrounding the U.S. attorneys scandal - in which Rove has become a prominent player - could overwhelm the administration's opposition.

Charles Cooper, a former assistant attorney general under former President Ronald Reagan, said it would be "extraordinary" if Rove were permitted to come to Capitol Hill.

"I don't think it's going to happen because I think the president is going to react very negatively," Cooper said. The president has a "very serious attitude towards ... protecting the prerogatives and dignity of his office."

In fact, House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers put out a statement Friday saying the White House had failed to meet a deadline for reaching agreement on providing documents - and testimony from Rove and others - and that he would schedule a vote on issuing subpoenas.

A scant few presidential advisers have testified before Congress since Bush was elected in 2000, and those instances have been extremely controversial.

Condoleezza Rice, then national security adviser, initially declined, and then agreed, to testify before the Congressionally mandated 9/11 commission in April 2004. As assistant to the president for Homeland Security - a staff- rather than Cabinet-level position - Tom Ridge testified on several occasions before the House and Senate in 2002, but not without resistance from the White House, according to a 2004 Congressional Research Service report.

Rove - one of Bush's closest allies and friends - never has testified before Congress and it is unclear under what circumstances, if any, he would testify, even as his role in the U.S. attorneys scandal widens. Media reports last week revealed Rove asked about the firings of U.S. attorneys in January 2005, long before he previously was thought to be involved.

The White House aide could be deposed in some kind of informal arrangement with the Judiciary Committee, which could include a private interview with questioning limited directly to the topic.

Cooper said that's how information often was extracted from officials in the Reagan White House, for instance.

"I would strongly suspect that this kind of issue would be worked out through that type of compromise," Cooper said.

Last week, the Senate Judiciary Committee authorized the issuing of subpoenas for five senior Justice Department aides to serve as witnesses in explaining how and why at least eight U.S. attorneys were fired for apparently political reasons in 2006. Aides still are working out the details of how they will provide information to the committee.

But Democrats delayed issuing subpoenas for Rove and ex-White House counsel Harriet Miers - instead they invited them in letters to appear voluntarily - apparently in hopes of striking a deal with the White House. White House counsel Fred Fielding was on the Hill last week meeting with key lawmakers and seemed to suggest that the officials would be made available under certain circumstances.

In the past, Bush has not been shy in asserting executive privilege or separation of powers arguments in protecting presidential documents and aides.

But this is an instance where political considerations may trump legal ones as the scandal grows and continues to irk Hill Democrats and make front-page headlines.

Calls, even among Republicans, for the resignation of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales got louder last week as documents were dumped revealing a coordinated campaign between the Justice Department and the White House to oust prosecutors based on political loyalty.

Under the circumstances, attorney Stanley Brand of the Brand Law Group said it was "very likely" that Rove would end up providing testimony.

"I think they don't want to be subpoenaed, and they're on the wrong side of this one," Brand said. "They're getting killed over this.

"I think they'll work it out, and I think he'll show up," Brand said of Rove.

But Bruce Fein, a former associate deputy attorney general under Reagan, said the legal history surrounding aides' testimony was a bit confusing - and the issue was less relevant when there were not so many presidential aides to begin with.

"The general rule has been as a matter of custom, the Congress will desist from asserting the subpoena power to compel the president and his aides" to testify, Fein explained. "It leaves the legal terrain very murky."

"Certainly, there is no outstanding Supreme Court or other court of appeals precedent that says Congress cannot compel Karl Rove to testify," he added.

If Congress does issue a subpoena, the White House could fight it in court or even choose to ignore it, though Fein said that would not be the smartest move as U.S. attorneys are supposed to enforce subpoenas.

<h3>Brand pointed out that Rove's testimony hardly would be unprecedented as a swarm of former President Bill Clinton's advisers served as Congressional witnesses.</h3>

According to the CRS report "Presidential Advisers' Testimony Before Congressional Committees: An Overview," there were 47 different appearances by Clinton presidential advisers before Congressional committees on a variety of topics.

The list includes Harold Ickes, then deputy chief of staff and assistant to the president, who testified before the House Banking, Finance and Urban Affairs Committee in July 1994 about the Whitewater investigation; John Podesta, then assistant to the president and staff secretary, who testified before the same committee on the same subject in July 1994; and George Stephanopoulos, who also testified at the same hearing.

Charles Ruff, then counsel to the president, testified in November 1997 before the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee on alleged fundraising abuses, while Beth Nolan, another former counsel, testified in March and May 2000 before the Government Reform Committee about the White House e-mail system.
Comparing "Clinton Did It", to the complete lack of oversight, accountability, (until 6 months ago....)and record of cooperation of the Bush administration with Congress, is laughable, IMO.

Eight years of white water investigations, constant congressional hearings, and an impeachment trial, marked Bill Clinton's two term presidency. Those events boost the stature and reputation of Bill and Hillary, the exact opposite of what the political opposition in the 90's and today, hoped to achieve.

Unlike the Clinton's the relentless investigations that they were subjected to, if they were applied, in kind, to Bush, would yield substantive evidence to break his presidency and his reputation, not enhance it......

Last edited by host; 07-13-2007 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
In a test of wills, he who has the strongest convictions will win. I don't want to hear members of Congress acting like children-saying the President isn't playing fair. They need to find their "balls" and do what they think needs to be done, or shut up.
Ace, it's interesting to notice where you're for the rule of law and where you're against it. Evidently presidential testicular mass trumps the laws of the land?
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Ace, it's interesting to notice where you're for the rule of law and where you're against it. Evidently presidential testicular mass trumps the laws of the land?
I realize not all laws on the books are fair and just and I have no problem when people choose to break those laws in order to publicize them or to force a judicial challenge. When these kinds of issues are in question, it takes courage to act. I respect courage. I do not support lawlessness, or general criminal behavior. There are differences in the two forms of breaking the law in my opinion.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
I realize not all laws on the books are fair and just and I have no problem when people choose to break those laws in order to publicize them or to force a judicial challenge. When these kinds of issues are in question, it takes courage to act. I respect courage. I do not support lawlessness, or general criminal behavior. There are differences in the two forms of breaking the law in my opinion.
So the Bush administration's lawbreaking is a form of civil disobedience?

Do you actually believe that? Or is that the only possible response to the observation of your inconsistency that doesn't require you to admit unthinking partisan bias?
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
So the Bush administration's lawbreaking is a form of civil disobedience?

Do you actually believe that? Or is that the only possible response to the observation of your inconsistency that doesn't require you to admit unthinking partisan bias?
There has been an on-going power battle between the legislative and executive branches of government. some of the issues have been clearly defined and there are some issues in the gray, so to speak. One of those areas is executive privilege - where is the Constitutionals line drawn? I don't pretend to know, but I do know, if I were President I would challenge every attempt by Congress to prevent new precedent. What would you do?
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
There has been an on-going power battle between the legislative and executive branches of government. some of the issues have been clearly defined and there are some issues in the gray, so to speak. One of those areas is executive privilege - where is the Constitutionals line drawn? I don't pretend to know, but I do know, if I were President I would challenge every attempt by Congress to prevent new precedent. What would you do?
I'll answer that, but first you've got to get how bizarre it is for you to be arguing framer's intent in one thread, and executive privilege should be expanded regardless of the design of the government in another. You've got to admit, that's a bit strange.

I do actually know where the constitutional lines are drawn. It's not a big mystery; most of us were taught how checks and balances works in 7th grade Civics--although Bushco wants us to think we don't know because our ignorance is their most useful tool. That ongoing struggle you refer to has only been happening since Bush was elected, and only REALLY happening since he used his post-9/11 popularity to start bullying congress around.

If I were the president, I'd follow the law. I'd honor the word I gave to uphold the Constitution. I wouldn't concern myself with expanding my power over the other branches. Maybe it's because I'm a uniter, not a divider, but I'd be interested in government working together to promote programs and policies that serve the American people. That would be first in my mind. Expanding my power and privilege would be WAY down my list.
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Old 07-16-2007, 06:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Since odds are slim that Bush and his administration could withstand anything similar to the unprecedented, unrelenting, and unethical, eight years investigation of the "white water" special prosecutors, and come out as unscathed as Clinton, his wife, and closest associates ended up, when "IT" was finally over....I'm compelled to stoop near to reconmike's tactic of posting what he displayed, without a link to it's source.....a partisan blogger....by posting this informative rebuttal....though.....with a link:

0...so, the Congressional Research Office supports the opinion that the Clinton administration was cooperative and accountable to Congress in a reasonable and a consistent fashion, and the Bush administration has not been,,,,

The following was written in March....the thugs in the executive branch are bolder (cornered ?) now:

Comparing "Clinton Did It", to the complete lack of oversight, accountability, (until 6 months ago....)and record of cooperation of the Bush administration with Congress, is laughable, IMO.

Eight years of white water investigations, constant congressional hearings, and an impeachment trial, marked Bill Clinton's two term presidency. Those events boost the stature and reputation of Bill and Hillary, the exact opposite of what the political opposition in the 90's and today, hoped to achieve.

Unlike the Clinton's the relentless investigations that they were subjected to, if they were applied, in kind, to Bush, would yield substantive evidence to break his presidency and his reputation, not enhance it......
The reason Clinton got off unscathed was because everyone close to any of the investigations wound up dead, does Bush have a close allies dead list like this?

Quote:
JAMES MCDOUGAL. Clinton’s convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. McDougal was a key witness in Kenneth Starr’s investigation.

MARY MAHONEY- A former White House intern was murdered July 6, 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened during the pre-trial publicity surrounding the Paula Jones lawsuit. days after Newsweek’s Mike Isakoff dropped hints that a former White House staffer was about to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

VINCENT FOSTER- Former White House counselor, and former colleague of Hillarv Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose law firm. Foster was found dead July 20, 1993 of a gunshot to the head ruled a suicide.

RON BROWN-Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported to the Bob Grant Radio Show a "hole" in top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. VICTOR RAISER II -Former National finance Go-Chairman, Clinton for President Campaign and son MONTGOMERY RAISER died in a private plane crash in Alaska, July30th,1992. Raiser was described as a "major player" in the Clinton organization by Dee Dee Meyers.

PAUL TULLEY. Democrat National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, Arkansas September 24, 1992, Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

ED WILLEY-Clinton fund raiser-found dead November 30, 1993 deep in the woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide, Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed that Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

JERRY PARKS-Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house

JAMES BUNCH-Died from a gunshot suicide. Reported to have a "black book" of people containing names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

JAMES WILSON-Was found dead May 18, 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. Was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

KATHY FERGUSON- Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in May,1994 was found dead in her living room with a gunshot wound to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Corbin Jones lawsuit. She was reported a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones case.

BILL SHELTON. Arkansas state Trooper and Fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of his fiancee.

GANDY BAUGH -Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping out a window of a tall building January , 1991. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

FLORENCE MARTIN-Accountant subcontractor for the CIA related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Dead of three gunshot wounds.

SUZANNE COLEMAN. Reportedly has an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General, Died of a gunshot wound to hack of head, ruled a suicide, was pregnant at the time her death.

PAULA GROBER - Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

DANNY CASOLARO. Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

PAUL WILCHER-Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC Apartment. Had delivered report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

JON PARNELL WALKER-Whitewater Investigator for Resolution Trust Corporation. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

BARBARA WISE-Commerce Department Staffer-worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

CHARLES MEISSNER-Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

DR. STANLEY HEARD. Chair National Chiropractic Heath Care Advisory committee died with his attorney .

STEVE DICKSON in a small plane crash. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.

BARRY SEAL. drug running pilot out of Mena, Arkansas, Death was no accident.

JOHNNY LAWHON Jr.- Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a utility pole.

STANLEY MUGGINS-Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee.

His report was never released.

HERSHELL FRIDAY-Attorney & Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

KEVIN IVES & DON HENRY-Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas Airport Drug operation. Controversial case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the two had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many people linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING SIX PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

KEITH CONEY. Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck in July, 1988:

KEITH McMASKLE. Died, stabbed 113 times, November 1988.

GREGORY COLLINS-Died from a gunshot wound, January 1989. JEFF RHODES-He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

JAMES MILAN. Found decapitated-Coroner ruled death due to natural causes.

JORDAN KETTLESON-Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

RICHARD WINTERS . Winters was a suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths.

Was killed in set-up robbery in July 1989.
Funny that anyone close to any Slick Wllie wrong doing has a bullet in their head or are taking a dirt nap.

Coincidence? I am so glad I dont know the slick one thats for friggen sure.


Edit: opps somehow these Clinton bodyguards are all dead also.

Quote:
THE FOLLOWING FORMER CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:

MAJOR WILLIAM S. BARKLEY JR.

CAPTAIN SCOTT J.REYNOLDS

SGT. BRIAN HANEY

SGT. TIM SABEL

MAJOR GENERAL WILLIAM ROBERTSON

COL. WILLIAM DENSBERGER

COL. ROBERT KELLY

SPEC. GARY RHODES

STEVE WILLIS

ROBERT WILLIAMS

CONWAY LeBLEU

TODD McKEEHAN
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Mike....shame on you for trying to pass off one of the oldest Clinton urban legends circulating around the net for the last 10 years:
Quote:
The Clinton Body Count

Claim: Bill Clinton has been quietly doing away with those who oppose him.

Status: False.

Origins: A new version of a lengthy list of deaths associated with Bill Clinton began circulating on the Internet in August 1998. According to it, there have been close to fifty suspicious deaths of colleagues, advisors and citizens who were about to testify against the Clintons, with the unstated implication that Bill Clinton or his henchmen were behind each untimely
demise.

We shouldn't have to tell anyone not to believe this claptrap, but we will anyway. In a frenzied media climate where the Chief Executive couldn't boff a White House intern without the whole world finding out every niggling detail of each encounter and demanding his removal from office, are we seriously to believe the same man had been having double handfuls of detractors and former friends murdered with impunity?

Don't be swayed by the number of names listed on screeds like this. Any public figure is bound to have a much wider circle of acquaintance than an ordinary citizen would. Moreover, the acquaintance is often one-sided — though many of the people enumerated on this list might properly claim to have known Clinton, he wouldn't know or remember having met a great number of them.

"Body count" lists are not a new phenomenon. Lists documenting all the allegedly "suspicious" deaths of persons connected with the assassination of John F. Kennedy have been circulating for decades, and the same techniques used to create and spread the JFK lists have been employed in the Clinton version:

* List every dead person with even the most tenuous of connections to your subject. It doesn't matter how these people died, or how tangential they were to your subject's life. The longer the list, the more impressive it looks and the less likely anyone is to challenge it. By the time readers get to the bottom of the list, they'll be too weary to wonder what could possibly be relevant about the death of Clinton's mother's chiropractor.

* Play word games. Make sure every death is presented as "mysterious." All accidental deaths are to be labelled "suspicious," even though by definition accidents occur when something unexpected goes wrong. Every self-inflicted death discussed must include the phrase "ruled a suicide" to imply just the opposite. When an autopsy contradicts a "mysterious death" theory, dispute it; when none was performed because none was needed, claim that "no autopsy was allowed." Make liberal use of words such as 'allegedly' and 'supposedly' to dismiss facts you can't contradict with hard evidence.

* Make sure every inconsistency or unexplained detail you can dredge up is offered as evidence of a conspiracy, no matter how insignificant or pointless it may be. If an obvious suicide is discovered wearing only one shoe, ignore the physical evidence of self-inflicted death and dwell on the missing shoe. You don't have to establish an alternate theory of the death; just keep harping that the missing shoe "can't be explained."

* If the data doesn't fit your conclusion, ignore it. You don't have to explain why the people who claim to have the most damaging goods on Clinton — Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Monica Lewinsky, Kenneth Starr — are still walking around unscathed while dozens of bit players have been bumped off. It's inconvenient for you, so don't mention it.

* Most importantly, don't let facts and details stand in your way! If you can pass off a death by pneumonia as a "suicide," do it! If a cause of death contradicts your conspiracy theory, claim it was "never determined." If your chronology of events is impossible, who cares? It's not like anybody is going to check up on this stuff . . .

This Clinton "body count" list is not a new phenomenon — multiple versions have been circulating for years. New victim names are routinely added and old ones taken off, forming an endless variety of permutations. At this point, there is no one "official" list.

But where did all this craziness start? In 1994, in a letter to congressional leaders, former Rep. William Dannemeyer listed 24 people with some connection to Clinton who had died "under other than natural circumstances" and called for hearings on the matter.

Dannemeyer's list of "suspicious deaths" was largely taken from one compiled by Linda Thompson, an Indianapolis lawyer who in 1993 quit her year-old general practice to run her American Justice Federation, a for-profit group that promotes pro-gun causes and various conspiracy theories through a shortwave radio program, a computer bulletin board, and sales of its newsletter and videos.

Her list, called "The Clinton Body Count: Coincidence or the Kiss of Death?" then contained the names of 34 people she believed died suspiciously and who had ties to the Clinton family. Thompson admitted she had "no direct evidence" of Clinton killing anyone. Indeed, she said the deaths were probably caused by "people trying to control the President" but refused to say who they were. Thompson said her allegations of murder "seem groundless only because the mainstream media haven't done enough digging."

Ah, but they had. If not before she put her list together, at least afterwards. Anyone who continues to state the mainstream media has given these claims short shrift is being disingenuous.

Since 1994, various respected news outlets have been confronted with versions of the "Clinton Body Count" list, run their own investigations of a few of the claims, and found nothing to substantiate what they looked into. Those investigations would culminate in yet another story about an oddball conspiracy rumor.

But conspiracy theories don't die that easily. These "body count" lists and the many specious claims contained therein continue to circulate in cyberspace and beyond: yesterday's newspaper articles are forgotten with the next day's delivery, but e-mail lives forever.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:16 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Haha! I love seeing "CLINTON WAS A MASS MURDERER," even after all these years. Christ, the right just hated the fuck out of him, didn't they? Is that where American political discourse took a nosedive right into the shitter, when they spent 8 years smearing a guy because they disagreed with his political agenda? I don't remember the left coming after Bush I with anything like that.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
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It would seem, to me at least, that some focus energy of Clinton as a means to disengage with current issues for the most part. I have noted a trend of refusing to address what is happening right now by instead bringing up actions of the past....and it seems to work well for those who are supportive of the current administration. By well, I mean for them.
I must admit to losing respect for these people as they continuously revert to Clintons' actions when confronted with disagreeable aspects of someone they support, it seems a cowards approach to debate. If this were a minor part of technique it would be one thing, but as the cycle of deceit becomes more and more clear....they have little else to work with. There comes a time when support must be withdrawn from obvious corruption of Ideals regardless of dislike for the "other side", I only wonder when it will become too much to defend.
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
I'll answer that, but first you've got to get how bizarre it is for you to be arguing framer's intent in one thread, and executive privilege should be expanded regardless of the design of the government in another. You've got to admit, that's a bit strange.
I don't think anything I have written on this subject has been contradictory. If so, give specifics so I can either correct the error or elaborate.

Quote:
I do actually know where the constitutional lines are drawn. It's not a big mystery; most of us were taught how checks and balances works in 7th grade Civics--although Bushco wants us to think we don't know because our ignorance is their most useful tool.
I must of been out the day they told us where that line is drawn. Can you tell us?

Bush is not the first and I bet he won't be the last President to claim executive privilege, so why the double standard or have you been consistent? If you are consistent why are you singling out Bush?

Quote:
That ongoing struggle you refer to has only been happening since Bush was elected, and only REALLY happening since he used his post-9/11 popularity to start bullying congress around.
Why ignore the reference to Clinton in the OP and other historical claims of executive privilege?

Quote:
If I were the president, I'd follow the law. I'd honor the word I gave to uphold the Constitution. I wouldn't concern myself with expanding my power over the other branches. Maybe it's because I'm a uniter, not a divider, but I'd be interested in government working together to promote programs and policies that serve the American people. That would be first in my mind. Expanding my power and privilege would be WAY down my list.
So, your goal would be - to be the weakest President in our history. There are clearly issues where I and others will not compromise. If I were in Congress and you, as President, wanted to be a "uniter" with me as your top priority, that would suggest that on certain issues you will bow to my will. If you consistently demonstrate a lack of a backbone, then I would make your term a living hell until you do everything I want you to do. In a manner of looking at it, I would make you my "bitch". So, I think you would actually "fight the fight", play the political game and do some things to mark your territory like I am sure your inner animal craves to do.
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:43 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
.....So, your goal would be - to be the weakest President in our history. There are clearly issues where I and others will not compromise. If I were in Congress and you, as President, wanted to be a "uniter" with me as your top priority, that would suggest that on certain issues you will bow to my will. If you consistently demonstrate a lack of a backbone, then I would make your term a living hell until you do everything I want you to do. In a manner of looking at it, I would make you my "bitch". So, I think you would actually "fight the fight", play the political game and do some things to mark your territory like I am sure your inner animal craves to do.
Sounds like an upcoming episode of Lil' Bush: Resident of the United States that portrays Bush and pals as elementary school misfits.



LIL' GEORGE
The ringleader of the lil' cronies, what Lil' George lacks in book smarts, street smarts, and any other smarts, he makes up for in confidence. His crazy brain often takes him on weird tangents, but there's one thing he's clear on: he wants to be The Decider. Until then, he'll charm his way out of trouble and rock out with the Lil' cronies.
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:02 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yes, it pretty much explains why Gore had the election stolen from him. Perhaps Gore needed to let his inner animal do its thing.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:41 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
.....Why ignore the reference to Clinton in the OP and other historical claims of executive privilege?....

.....ace, considering the supporting`material in my last post....detailing the Clinton administration's co-operation with congressional committee requests for witness appearances, aren't reconmike and you doing the "ignoring"? Can you point to anything else on this thread that comes close to this?:
Quote:
http://www.socalsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10273
Old 03-22-2007

The "Clinton did it" defense......
Perhaps the more telling comparison is the difference between the number of times Clinton aides actually DID testify, under oath, and the number of times Bush aids have done so. According to the Congressional Research Service, under President Clinton, 31 of his top aides testified on 47 different occasions. The aides who testified included some of Clinton’s closest advisors:...
Was the substance of my last post, the above article, ignored because it was impossible to counter?

ace...(and reconmike....) I have posted the following in chronological order to make it easier for you to understand my presentation. Both of your recent posts reinforce my wondering whether it is time to divide the U.S. into two separate countries. My idea of a discussion, if one were actually to take place on this thread, and on this forum, and in this country, would be for ace, or reconmike, to post rebuttal opinions from attorneys or judges who support the white house, and Meier's decision to ignore subpoenas from congressional committees and to refuse to provide privilege logs, or...any specific support for claims of executive privilege. Citations of court decisions, even if not to the extent that democrats have provided, countering what democrats have provided, and that I have posted here, would be a refreshing turn away from the direction this thread has taken.

I extend to you the COURTESY....again and again....of sharing with you, the information (WITH LINKS !!!) that shaped my opinions and conclusions, and prompted me to post about them....

<b>Are you responding, in kind?</b>

Quote:
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=538
Chairmen Leahy and Conyers Write to Fielding
June 29th, 2007 by Jesse Lee

Today, House and Senate Judiciary Chairmen John Conyers and Patrick Leahy sent a letter to White House Counsel Fred Fielding, responding to the President’s executive privilege assertion over documents relating to the US Attorney investigation. The two reiterated their concern that the president’s assertion was unprecedented and over-reaching. They also demanded the White House “immediately provide us with the specific bases for your claims regarding each document withheld via a privilege log…and a copy of any explicit determination by the President with respect to the assertion of privilege.”

See Chairman Conyers’ statement yesterday >>

See the initial announcement of the subpoeanas >>

The full text of the letter:

June 29, 2007

Fred Fielding, Esq.
Counsel to the President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. Fielding:

....... Moreover, your blanket assertion of executive privilege belies any good faith attempt to determine where privilege truly does and does not apply. A serious assertion of privilege would include an effort to demonstrate to the Committees which documents, and which parts of those documents, are covered by any privilege that may apply.

Indeed, the subpoenas themselves specifically stated that for each document withheld, you should provide a description of the nature, source, subject matter, and date of the document; the name and address of each recipient of an original or copy of the document and the date received; the name and address of each additional person to whom any of the contents of the document were disclosed along with the date and manner of disclosure; and the specific legal basis for the assertion of privilege. Such privilege logs have been provided by the White House in previous Administrations, and this Justice Department has provided similar logs in this very matter, which have been used to help resolve disputes about the production of documents. Yet, you have failed to provide any such information.

In addition, at least since the Reagan Administration in 1982, there has been a specific determination and signed statement by the President when executive privilege has been asserted. In accord with this procedure, President Bush himself has issued such assertions during his Administration. See, e.g., Memorandum for the Attorney General re Congressional Subpoena for Executive Branch Documents (December 12, 2001). See also “Procedures Governing Responses to Congressional Requests for Information,” issued on November 4, 1982, and 6 Op. OLC 31 (1982). Yet you have failed to include any such Presidential assertion or even state whether you have now decided to disregard this established procedure.

Please provide the documents compelled by the subpoenas without further delay. If you continue to decline to do so, you should immediately provide us with the specific factual and legal bases for your claims regarding each document withheld via a privilege log as described above and a copy of any explicit determination by the President with respect to the assertion of privilege. You have until July 9, 2007, at 10 a.m. to bring this and any other information you wish to submit to our attention before we move to proceedings to rule on your claims and consider whether the White House is in contempt of Congress.

We were disappointed that we had to turn to these subpoenas in order to obtain information needed by the Committees to learn the truth about these firings and the erosion of independence at the Justice Department. We are even more disappointed now with yet further stonewalling.

Whether or not we have the benefit of the information we have directed you to provide by July 9, we will take the necessary steps to rule on your privilege claims and appropriately enforce our subpoenas backed by the full force of law.

Sincerely,

PATRICK LEAHY
Chairman
Senate Judiciary Committee

JOHN CONYERS, JR.
Chairman
House Judiciary Committee

cc: The Honorable Arlen Specter

The Honorable Lamar S. Smith

The Committees also released the following fact sheet on Executive Privilege:

The White House’s Broad Claims of Executive Privilege Are Not Supported by Law

Background: President Bush has asserted executive privilege in response to two document subpoenas from the Senate and House Judiciary Committees. The subpoenas requested categories of documents highly relevant to the unprecedented and improper firing of nine United States Attorneys and the politicization of the Department of Justice. The executive privilege is not a broad and sweeping authority the President can hide behind because he does not want to cooperate with congressional oversight — it should not prevent Congress from examining White House documents vitally important to its investigation. While courts have recognized a privilege based in the Constitution, that privilege is not absolute and must be balanced with other constitutional interests, including Congress’s oversight powers.

Courts And Legal Experts Agree Executive Privilege Is Limited:

· The Supreme Court held that the executive privilege is not absolute in United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683, 706 (1974), writing that “neither the doctrine of separation of powers, nor the need for confidentiality of high-level communications, without more, can sustain an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege … .” The DC Circuit elaborated that “the privilege is qualified, not absolute, and can be overcome by an adequate showing of need.” In re Sealed Case, 121 F.3d 729, 745 (D.C. Cir. 1997).

· The District of Columbia Circuit found that even in the area of national security, there was no absolute executive privilege against congressional demands for information: “The executive would have it that the Constitution confers on the executive absolute discretion in the area of national security. This does not stand up. While the Constitution assigns to the President a number of powers relating to national security, … it confers upon Congress other powers equally inseparable from the national security… .” United States v. AT&T, 567 F.2d121, 128 (D.C. Cir. 1977). [The documents requested by the House and Senate Committees do not implicate any national security concerns.]

· The Congressional Research Service emphasizes the limited nature of the executive privilege. “Executive privilege is not an absolute. It is a qualified privilege and is balanced against the constitutional needs and obligations of other branches.” Congressional Research Service, October 21, 2005.

The Documents Requested By Committees Do Not Fit Into Narrow Executive Privilege:

· The privilege covers communications related to presidential decision-making, which is not at issue here. The DC Circuit has found that the presidential communications privilege applies to communications “intimately connected to his presidential decision-making.” In re Sealed Case, 121 F.3d at 753. However, numerous witnesses before both House and Senate Committees have testified that the President did not decide which U.S. Attorneys should be fired.

· The privilege, even if it does apply, is overcome by real public need — as exists here. Executive privilege is overcome where the subpoenaed materials likely contain important evidence and where that evidence is not available elsewhere. In re Sealed Case, 121 F.3d at 755. Again and again, the evidence the Committee has obtained in this investigation shows significant involvement by Sara Taylor, Harriet Miers, and others in the White House, but the White House has shut down all avenues of obtaining information about that extremely important involvement.

The broader deliberative process privilege does not apply. That privilege does not apply when there is reason to believe government misconduct occurred, as has been clearly established in this matter, and does not apply to full documents – only to specific and relevant passages. Several of the high-ranking officials at the Department of Justice have resigned since this investigation began. In re Sealed Case, 121 F.3d at 745.

The White House’s Claims Of Privilege Are Sweeping And Overly Broad:

· The non-partisan Congressional Research Service has been critical of this White House’s sweeping characterizations of executive privilege. “The current Bush Administration … has articulated a legal view of the breadth and reach of presidential constitutional prerogatives that, if applied to information and documents often sought by congressional committees, would stymie such inquiries.” CRS further notes that the Department of Justice’s “assertions of these broad notions of presidential prerogatives are unaccompanied by any authoritative judicial citations.” CRS Congressional Oversight Manual, January 3, 2007, at 45.

· The White House has not sought in good faith to determine where privilege truly does and does not apply. The White House Counsel asserted privilege and declared that “therefore the White House will not be making any production in response to these subpoenas for documents.” June 28, 2007 Letter from Fred Fielding to Chairmen Leahy and Conyers. A serious assertion of privilege would include a serious effort to determine which documents, and which parts of those documents, are covered by any privilege that may apply; White House officials have provided no such comprehensive review.

The White House Has Not Sought Accommodation:

· Most disputes between Congress and the Executive about access to documents and information are resolved through compromise. CRS Congressional Oversight Manual at 39.

· The White House in this case has made one unacceptable “take it or leave it” offer of extremely limited access to witnesses, off-the-record interviews, without transcripts, and a small number of documents. The White House has refused to negotiate further. The Senate and House Judiciary Committees have sought the kind of compromise solutions which generally accompany this type of investigation, but have been consistently rebuffed by the White House. Even the Department of Justice has made attempts to respond to congressional inquiries.
Quote:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/07/w...istration.html
Friday, July 06, 2007

What Would Happen if the Administration Continues to Defy the Subpoenas?

Marty Lederman

.....MR. RUSSERT: You have asked the White House and others to respond to your subpoenas. They are now invoking executive privilege, and you said this: "We will take the necessary steps to enforce our subpoenas backed by the full force of law so that Congress and the public can get to the truth behind this matter." * * * * What happens if the White House just does not respond to these subpoenas? They invoke executive privilege, it's take it or leave it. What do you do?

SEN. LEAHY: Well, then, then, of course, you have to go to the next step, determine whether they have a legitimate claim of executive privilege. Based on the court cases, it appears they do not. . . . [I]f they do not have a basis for it, then you have a vote on a contempt citation, and it goes to the U.S. Attorney for prosecution. I would hope that's not necessary.

<b>MR. RUSSERT: Are you sure the U.S. Attorney would prosecute?

SEN. LEAHY: Well, I think it'd be very difficult for him not to. But . . . since the debacle of the Nixon time and even in President's Nixon’s presidency, every single President, rather than do that, Republican or Democratic, has worked out a way to get [Congress] this information. </b>

Senator Leahy is correct in one important respect: In almost every single historical case where a House of Congress has issued a contempt citation or threatened to do so, that has prompted the Executive branch to further "accommodate" the legislature by providing information sufficient to allow Congress to proceed with its investigation. (One possible exception, from the Nixon Administration, was Senate Select Comm. on Presidential Campaign Activities v. Nixon, 498 F.2d 725 (D.C. Cir. 1974), in which the Administration successfully resisted a Senate subpoena.)

One might hope that the prospect of its officials being held in contempt would cause this Administration to do the same -- especially because the contempt is a crime punishable by up to a year in prison (see 2 U.S.C. 192), and because, as <a href="http://talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/fielding-exec-priv/?resultpage=10&">the Acting Attorney General has written</a>, the court of appeals "has recognized that each branch has a 'constitutional mandate to seek optimal accommodation of each other's legitimate interests" (quoting U.S. v. AT&T, 567 F.2d at 127). But it would not surprise many observers if this Administration breaks the mold and refuses to further accommodate Congress -- particularly because it has already taken the view that Congress does not have any "legitimate interests" in determining why the President effectively dismissed the U.S. Attorneys. (<a href="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/06/first-in-what-will-probably-be-long.html">I've previously explained</a> that I think this view is wrong -- but I doubt I'm going to convince DOJ, let alone David Addington and the President.)

So let's say the two branches are at loggerheads after a contempt citation is issued. What then?

Legally, there are at least three options for Congress.

First, there's the remedy that Senator Leahy invokes: The House or Senate that has voted for contempt can certify that fact to the United States Attorney for the District of Columbia, "whose duty it shall be to bring the matter before the grand jury for its action." 2 U.S.C. 194. The problem with this option is that the (Acting) Attorney General will almost certainly instruct the U.S. Attorney not to prosecute the action, notwithstanding the "duty" imposed by statute. How can the Attorney General issue such an order? Well, when a similar crisis arose in the mid-1980's (relating to contempt against EPA Administrator Anne Gorsuch), OLC issued an Opinion concluding that the statute is unconstitutional to the extent it requires a U.S. Attorney to prosecute a contempt action where the noncompliance is based on the President's assertion of executive privilege: In OLC's view, a U.S. Attorney thus "is not required to refer a contempt citation in these circumstances to a grand jury or otherwise to prosecute an Executive Branch official who is carrying out the President's [executive privilege] instruction." 8 Op. O.L.C. 101, 102.

This is a contestable conclusion. (There are many things about the 1984 OLC Opinion with which I disagree -- but whether the ultimate conclusion is correct is a tricky question.) Be that as it may, it's fairly certain that the Bush Administration will not repudiate it. Therefore, it is virtually inconceivable there will ever be any contempt prosecution brought by the U.S. Attorney. (The Administration would comply with the subpoenas long before it would authorize such prosecutions.)

Second, Congress can itself prosecute the contumacious official(s) to coerce them to comply -- a power that the Supreme Court has affirmed. See Jurney v. MacCracken, 294 U.S. 125 (1935); Anderson v. Dunn, 19 U.S. (6 Wheat.) 204 (1821); see also Groppi v. Leslie, 404 U.S. 496, 499 (1972). As Justice Scalia explained in Young v. U.S. ex rel. Vuitton et Fils, S.A., 481 U.S. at 820, this legislative prosecution authority is a constitutional anomaly of sorts -- a "limited power of self-defense" for Congress, permissible because "any other course 'leads to the total annihilation of the power of the House of Representatives to guard itself from contempts, and leaves it exposed to every indignity and interruption that rudeness, caprice, or even conspiracy, may meditate against it'" (quoting Anderson).

How would such self-help work? Well, believe it or not, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the Senate or House would personally arrest the officials and detain them in the Capitol jail or guardhouse (assuming such a facility still exists). (One of my students last semester noticed this gem on the <a href="http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/sergeant_at_arms.htm">website</a> of the current Senate Sergeant-at-Arms, Terrance Gainer: "The Sergeant at Arms is authorized to arrest and detain any person violating Senate rules, including the President of the United States." We wondered in class: What could possibly have motivated Mr. Gainer or his staff to post that provocation?) The person would then be tried by the legislative house and, if found guilty (of civil contempt), could be detained until compliance with the subpoena or until the session of Congress ends, Anderson, 19 U.S. at 231, whichever comes first.

Congress has not invoked this authority since 1935 and, as far as I know, has never used it against a current or former government official. (The closest case was probably the contempt at issue in McGrain v. Daugherty, 273 U.S. 135 (1927), which was imposed against Mally Daugherty, a bank president and the brother of resigned and disgraced Attorney General Harry Daugherty, who Congress was investigating in connection with the Teapot Dome scandal.)

Thus, this option is unlikely . . . but not inconceivable, if Congress is willing to break relatively new ground, and to conduct a contempt trial.

Third, and most likely, Congress could file a civil action in federal court seeking declaratory relief, or an injunction requiring enforcement of its subpoena. Although I'm not aware of any statute that expressly grants the courts jurisdiction over such suits, both Congress and the Executive branch have filed suits of this sort in the past, asserting federal question jurisdiction under 28 U.S.C. 1331. The courts in such cases have not expressly reach edthe question of whether section 1331 jurisdiction is apposite. See Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities v. Nixon, 366 F. Supp. 51 (D.D.C. 1973) (holding that the $10,000 jurisdictional amount in controversy requirement then in the statute (it's since been eliminated) was not satisfied); United States v. House of Representatives, 556 F. Supp. 150 (D.D.C. 1983) (in which DOJ took the position that the controversy arose under the Constitution and laws of the United States, but the court did not reach the merits -- it dismissed the suit "until all possibilities for settlement have been exhausted"; and DOJ did not appeal).....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20070709.html
For Immediate Release
July 9, 2007

Communication to Congress on President's Assertion of Executive Privilege

......In response to your inquiry concerning the mechanics of the President's assertion of the privilege, you may be assured that the President's assertion here comports with prior practices in similar contexts, and that it has been appropriately documented. I do hope that your Committees will appreciate that I write on behalf of the President and therefore understand that my letter of June 28, 2007 precisely expresses the President's position on this matter.

Your letter also "direct[s]" the President to provide certain additional information to the Committees before 10:00 a.m. on July 9, 2007. The letter goes on to say that a very detailed "privilege log" is necessary "to facilitate ruling on" claims of Executive Privilege and your letter thereafter announces an intention to "take the necessary steps to rule on [the President's executive] privilege claims." We are aware of no authority by which a congressional committee may "direct" the Executive to undertake the task of creating and providing an extensive description of every document covered by an assertion of Executive Privilege. Given the descriptions of the materials in question that have already been provided, this demand is unreasonable because it represents a substantial incursion into Presidential prerogatives and because, in view of the open-ended scope of the Committees' inquiry, it would impose a burden of very significant proportions. ........
Quote:
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/topstori...xml&storylist=
House panel rejects Bush privilege claim
7/12/2007, 5:33 p.m. EDT
By LAURIE KELLMAN
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) — House Democrats on Thursday took the first step toward holding former White House counsel Harriet Miers in contempt of Congress after she defied a subpoena — at President Bush's order — and skipped a hearing on the firing of U.S. attorneys.

Over the strenuous objections of Republicans, a subcommittee cleared the way for contempt proceedings by voting 7-5 to reject Bush's claim of executive privilege. He says his top advisers, whether current or former, cannot be summoned by Congress.

"Those claims are not legally valid," <b>Rep. Linda Sanchez, D-Calif., said of Bush's declaration.</b> "Ms. Miers is required pursuant to the subpoena to be here now."......


http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us
Ruling of Chairwoman Linda Sánchez on Related Executive
Privilege and Immunity Claims

Privilege and Immunity Claims
According to letters we have received from Ms. Harriet Miers’ counsel, her refusal to
answer questions and produce relevant documents in accordance with her obligations under the
subpoena served on her June 13 is based on letters she has received from current White House
Counsel Fred Fielding, asserting related claims of executive privilege and immunity. Many of
these claims had already been raised and communicated to us previously.
We have given all these claims careful consideration, and I hereby rule that those claims
are not legally valid and that Ms. Miers is required pursuant to the subpoena to be here now and
to produce documents and answer questions.
I will presently entertain a motion to sustain this ruling, but first I would like to set forth
the grounds for it. They are as follows:
First, the claims of privilege and immunity are not properly asserted. Ms. Miers is no
longer an employee of the White House and is simply relying on a claim of Presidential
executive privilege and immunity communicated by the current White House Counsel. No one
is here today on behalf of the White House raising that claim.....

.....Second, we are aware of absolutely no possible proper basis for Ms. Miers’ refusing even
to appear today as required by subpoena. The White House Counsel’s letter to Ms. Miers’s
attorney, and her attorney’s letters to the Subcommittee, fail to cite a single case in support of the
notion that a witness under federal subpoena may simply decline to show up to a hearing. Indeed,
no court decision that we are aware of supports the White House’s astounding claim that a former
White House official has the option of refusing to even appear in response to a Congressional
subpoena.
To the contrary, the courts have made clear that no present or former government official
– even the President – is so above the law that he or she may completely disregard a legal
directive such as
the Committee’s subpoena.   click to show 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3


Yes, it pretty much explains why Gore had the election stolen from him. Perhaps Gore needed to let his inner animal do its thing.
ace....is Harriet Meiers, former appointee to the SCOTUS by Mr. Bush, setting an example of her fitness to serve as a justice on that bench, when she did not afford the congressional sub-committee, even the courtesy, of appearing before it, as demanded in the subpoena served to her by the sub-committee, after it was deemed necessary to subpoena here, because of her refusal to appear voluntarily, to either testify, or to assert claims of privilege, or of her fifth amendment rights?

ace, or reconmike....are you even keeping up a pretense, with the posting of a "Clinton's victim list (no links were provided), and with ace's Gore reference (above)....of participating in a political discussion, here? Isn't what you are doing, by posting the Gore reference, ace...in the context of this recent question, posted by
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Ace, it's interesting to notice where you're for the rule of law and where you're against it. Evidently presidential testicular mass trumps the laws of the land?
.....more appropriate for posting in a "general discussion", or in some other TFP forum?

Last edited by host; 07-17-2007 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=host
ace...(and reconmike....) I have posted the following in chronological order to make it easier for you to understand my presentation. Both of your recent posts reinforce my wondering whether it is time to divide the U.S. into two separate countries.[/QUOTE]

What a novel idea, the lefties can take the left side of the Mississippi, including Hollyweird concidering it is comprised mostly of lefties anyway.
Only problem is where will all the money come from to run your new nation?
Because we know that the richest 50% of the nation are mostly republicans,
hell I am sure we on the right side of the ole Miss can take the US debt and let you guys start fresh, seeing that we will be able to cut alot of programs to the noncontributing 40% who do not pay ANY federal tax at all. We should have a balanced budget in no time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Mike....shame on you for trying to pass off one of the oldest Clinton urban legends circulating around the net for the last 10 years:

Come on DC, you can't admit that even a few of these names, high rankiing officals, dead with bullets in their heads doesnt seem a wee bit suspicious?

And then add that after Foster offs himself Clinton claims executive privilege
on Foster's files.
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Last edited by reconmike; 07-17-2007 at 02:52 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
Come on DC, you can't admit that even a few of these names, high rankiing officials, dead with bullets in their heads doesnt seem a wee bit suspicious?

And then add that after Foster offs himself Clinton claims executive privilege
on Foster's files.
mike....I will admit that conspiracy nuts with a deep seated hatred of Clinton will continue to spew this bullshit rather than engage in a discussion of Bush.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:29 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
mike....I will admit that conspiracy nuts with a deep seated hatred of Clinton will continue to spew this bullshit rather than engage in a discussion of Bush.
I do not hate Clinton, i do think he was a jackass who was only worried about Bill Clinton and his legacy.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:44 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
.....ace, considering the supporting`material in my last post....detailing the Clinton administration's co-operation with congressional committee requests for witness appearances, aren't reconmike and you doing the "ignoring"? Can you point to anything else on this thread that comes close to this?:

Was the substance of my last post, the above article, ignored because it was impossible to counter?

ace...(and reconmike....) I have posted the following in chronological order to make it easier for you to understand my presentation. Both of your recent posts reinforce my wondering whether it is time to divide the U.S. into two separate countries. My idea of a discussion, if one were actually to take place on this thread, and on this forum, and in this country, would be for ace, or reconmike, to post rebuttal opinions from attorneys or judges who support the white house, and Meier's decision to ignore subpoenas from congressional committees and to refuse to provide privilege logs, or...any specific support for claims of executive privilege. Citations of court decisions, even if not to the extent that democrats have provided, countering what democrats have provided, and that I have posted here, would be a refreshing turn away from the direction this thread has taken.

I extend to you the COURTESY....again and again....of sharing with you, the information (WITH LINKS !!!) that shaped my opinions and conclusions, and prompted me to post about them....

<b>Are you responding, in kind?</b>








ace....is Harriet Meiers, former appointee to the SCOTUS by Mr. Bush, setting an example of her fitness to serve as a justice on that bench, when she did not afford the congressional sub-committee, even the courtesy, of appearing before it, as demanded in the subpoena served to her by the sub-committee, after it was deemed necessary to subpoena here, because of her refusal to appear voluntarily, to either testify, or to assert claims of privilege, or of her fifth amendment rights?

ace, or reconmike....are you even keeping up a pretense, with the posting of a "Clinton's victim list (no links were provided), and with ace's Gore reference (above)....of participating in a political discussion, here? Isn't what you are doing, by posting the Gore reference, ace...in the context of this recent question, posted by

.....more appropriate for posting in a "general discussion", or in some other TFP forum?
Can you give one example where you have directly responded to data from a link that was in conflict to your view? If you have, I will gladly start to engage you in a citation contest on the topic of your choice. As an example there is the reference and link in the OP supporting the fact that Clinton claimed executive privilege and that the claim is not unique to Bush.

When I do research it is usually for my benefit. My opinions are formed from my research, when my opinion is legitimately challenged I often back it up with my research. I usually do that up to the point of when one of my citations is ignored, it is usually the first one.

{added}

DC's link to the Lil Bush cartoon was about Gore, so I was not the first to bring him up. Funny, but I have this habit of actually clicking on the links people post. I actually have an open mind, and love to have my views challenged.
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Last edited by aceventura3; 07-17-2007 at 04:49 PM..
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