07-27-2007, 12:32 AM | #81 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Lake Mary, FL
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I'd heard about Ron Paul before this thread, but didn't really know much about him. Anyway, after taking the time to read up on him and watch a few of his videos on YouTube, I only have one thing to say...
If Ron Paul doesn't win, then it just goes to show that this country is full of morons/people who care more about lining their own pockets with money instead of the general welfare of the public. I'm not looking forward to living in an America where I have to live in astute poverty because this generation's leaders (Like that idiot in office) were more interested in protecting big business/the rich than they were than upholding the principles that this country was founded on. It's a sad day in America when someone is called a fool for wanting to uphold the Constitution...
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07-27-2007, 05:21 AM | #82 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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IL....can you explain Ron Paul's position that the income tax is unconstitutional?
Perhaps before the 16th amendment was proposed by Congress in 1909 and ratified by the states in 1913: Quote:
Characterizing those who dont support him as`"morons/people who care more about lining their own pockets with money instead of the general welfare of the public" still doesnt explain how we would govern based on his position of opposing nearly all spending.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 07-27-2007 at 05:30 AM.. |
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07-27-2007, 09:16 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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So, i know you think that the constitution is plain as day, but just because you think it, does not make it so. Last edited by filtherton; 08-01-2007 at 05:12 PM.. |
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07-27-2007, 01:41 PM | #84 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Lake Mary, FL
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*Shrugs* It makes sense to me. Quote:
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Just go to YouTube and type in 'Ron Paul'. You get about 40K returns. That's more than any other presidential candidate by a mile. I tend to believe that people are genuinely interested in Ron Paul and, besides what the biased media has to say, I think he has a real shot at winning the GOP. Quote:
Care to guess how much money is wasted on programs such as "Art Behind Bars"?
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. |
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07-27-2007, 02:01 PM | #85 (permalink) | |||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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07-27-2007, 04:01 PM | #86 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Florida
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After a lot of researching about Ron Paul, I was very interested, and was planing on voting for him. Actually, I'm not sure yet, so I may after all (though I'm leaning towards Kucinich) - but I have one huge concern: Free-market.
I don't believe a "truly free market" amounts to anything positive for the average person. Free-markets = the possibilities for monopolies, and if there's one thing Rockefeller taught us, with price rising and price dropping to destroy competition, is that monopolies are neigh-impossible to topple. The result? Consumers are royally screwed. My other critique of Dr. Paul is that, while I know his position on constitutionality, I also know what he thinks of abortion (human life begins at conception), meaning that it may be his only hypocritical move (in my opinion - I'm pro-choice). Those of you who support Dr. Paul may benefit from researching Mike Gravel or Kucinich. In any case, the more I think about what an unregulated free market would result in, the more I can't help but lose support for Dr. Paul.
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I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet |
07-27-2007, 09:09 PM | #87 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: NYC, USA
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Ron Paul is a rare creature, an honest man in politics. I respect him, but I usually disagree with him and would NEVER vote for him for President. I mostly agree with the posters who likened him to a Republican Kucinich - a good man, but out there. And I'm not talking about electability; I'm talking about policy. I'm pretty moderate and would be likely to vote for someone closer to the "center" (though, really, I prefer not to speak in political categories).
Also - I forget where I first heard this, but it always comes to mind when I hear these debates about the Constitution - The Constitution is not a suicide pact. What that means is that the Constitution, a great and wise document though it is, was not handed down by God. Its purpose was to create a nation of laws, for men. How did it do that? By the clever use of language. What does this mean? It means that just like language, the Constitution can be interpreted. This is why the slippery-slope argument with regards to constitutionality usually doesn't hold water. Most - though not all, mind you - ways in which the Constitution has been interpreted fit pretty well within the paradigms of the interpretation of language. Anyone who has ever tried to discern meaning from a cryptic phrase knows that the are a number of possibly valid interpretations; the same applies to the Constitution (and most legal matters). Furthermore, the Constitution is vague deliberately. If it weren't vague, nobody would ever have agreed to it, and the framers understood that. So, they left a lot up in the air, figuring that future generations would sort it out. As their disagreements make plain, they had some pretty different ideas of how it should be interpreted, too. And sort it out we have, albeit tragically at times. Generally speaking, in terms of federal powers, the Hamiltonian doctrine has won out. You may disagree with this outcome, and have some very good reasons why. Lots of very intelligent, well-informed people, believe federal powers have been interpreted too broadly (I tend to disagree with this view, though there are some notable exceptions). The key word there, though, is interpreted. You don't know what the Constitution means because the Constitution is open to interpretation and it was always meant to be that way. If people could read the Constitution and know its exact implications for everything, there would be no lawyers or judges. |
07-29-2007, 11:00 PM | #88 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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07-30-2007, 03:54 AM | #89 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I find Ron Paul's position on earmarks to be just a tad hypocritical and dishonest.
He claims earmarks are unconstitutional on the grounds that they do not support the "general welfare", yet in the fiscal 08 appropriation bills, he submitted 65 requests for earmarks for projects in his district (last year the average was under 60). Quote:
If he truly believes earmarks are unconstitutional, then he should reject them all. But turning down funding requests from constitutents for projects like marketing wild shrimp, renovation of an old theater, bridge repair, hospital research, etc...might hurt his reelection. I do give him credit, along with Barak Obama, Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo, for making their earmark requests public. The other candidates have not. But Is he really that much different?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 07-30-2007 at 04:11 AM.. |
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07-30-2007, 05:34 AM | #90 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I highly doubt any of this will hurt his re-election at all, especially with all the support his been getting nationally. His house seat isn't going anywhere.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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07-30-2007, 05:49 PM | #91 (permalink) |
Insane
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You play by the rules of the game as they are, even if you seek to change those rules. You might want to see earmarks halted, but so long as they are part of the fabric of our politics, you have to work within that framework or your own constituents end up getting the shaft. You might be in favor of publicly funded elections, but until it comes about you have to fund your campaign by the current system. You might be in favor of alternative energy programs, but it doesn't mean you don't own a car.
I like seeing people make some moves to show their convictions, but I don't expect them to go so far as to be incapable of succeeding within the current framework. |
07-30-2007, 06:10 PM | #92 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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josh....the distinction I would make is that Ron Paul does not only want the change the rules on earmarks, he says without reservation that they are unconstitutional.
If he believe that strongly in his constitutional interpretation, he should stand by it all the way and not act in what he believes is an illegal manner. He is trying to play it both ways that IMO is counter to his conviction. He should tell his constituents right up front that he will not submit earmarks and stand or fall on that position...or back off from the constitution argument. John McCain believes earmarks are fiscally irresponsible and will not request any on behalf of his constitutents. His constituents know that and accept it.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
07-30-2007, 06:24 PM | #93 (permalink) | |
Insane
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My statement was really more of a general commentary on the general concept of how much one should be expected to go against the system in demonstration of their desire to change the system. As for Paul in particular, I have to admit I've not closely analyzed him as he is not a candidate in an election I'll be voting in. |
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08-06-2007, 05:37 AM | #94 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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It looks like he did very well in this last debate. He won the ABC post debate poll, the MSNBC poll and the Drudge Report poll. I have also heard that he has spent only $600,000 of his $3 million raised so far.
He as accomplished quite a lot with nothing but a strong message and little money. If he had a 90% household name recognition like guliani and mccain instead of <10% he'd probably be in first place for the nomination. Here's a great clip from the recent debate Love how romney tries to pull the "..but.....but..but 9/11" and gets shut up. Paul makes so many great points in that clip.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. Last edited by samcol; 08-06-2007 at 05:42 AM.. |
08-06-2007, 07:17 AM | #97 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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08-13-2007, 03:41 PM | #99 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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The energy around this guy is incredible so I hear. He usually has more supporters than any other candidates at debates and events.
The last couple minutes of this clip is really awesome imo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFfdB5OzlyQ#h He managed to beat out some very recognized candidates in the Iowa straw poll coming in at Fifth.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
08-13-2007, 03:53 PM | #100 (permalink) | |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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Look, Ron Paul may be super great, but people need to get past the idea that internet support is any kind of important. The vast majority of voting Americans are not frequenting the tubes. Ron Paul has zero chance. Get over it, move on.
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08-13-2007, 05:23 PM | #101 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Kadath - here's a caveat. There will eventually come an election in which what you say is no longer true. I think that it is entirely possible for a candidates internet strategy, presence, and support to translate to real-world gains. The first time that happens, there will be a lot of surprise and confusion and armchair quarterbacking. My gut tells me that we aren't quite there yet. Ron Paul's candidacy (and Mike Gravel to a lesser degree) are an important part of that paradigm shift, but I don't think we're close enough for them to push us over the line.
And let's be honest here. Ron Paul came in fifth when two of the anticipated three strongest candidates didn't even show up. If McCain and Giuliani had made even a slight effort, Paul would have been in 7th. It's not time for a victory dance yet.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 08-13-2007 at 05:37 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
08-13-2007, 05:44 PM | #103 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Plus his internet support has gotten him all over the TV recently. I'd say he has a better chance than most of the corporate whore candidates. Don't forget it's still very early in the presidential campaign and his support continues to go UP unlike many of the candidates. The RP presidential dream is till very much alive.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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08-13-2007, 06:02 PM | #104 (permalink) |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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Okay, samcol. I will give you better than Vegas odds. 50-1. Bet as much as you like. Everyone is witness. I'll take all your action. I'll take anyone's action.
ubertuber: I agree, it will matter one day. Not today, though, and those who think otherwise are fooling themselves (and possibly giving me money. Who wants to back Ron Paul? Taking all bets!)
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it's quiet in here |
08-13-2007, 06:21 PM | #105 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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There are a ton of people who are really fed up with the status quo of what both parties are offering. The biggest road block for Ron Paul is getting his message out. If he can do this effectively he can win. PS: Alright, I'll take you up on 50-1. PM your paypal address. Oh, and he's currently tied with Romney at 8 to 1, even after Romney won the Iowa straw poll.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. Last edited by samcol; 08-13-2007 at 06:29 PM.. Reason: added vegas odds :P |
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08-13-2007, 07:56 PM | #106 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Ron Paul doesnt have a chance in hell. To think otherwise is sheer folly.
He's at 1-2% in the national polls (yeah yeah, I know that polls arent a true measure of his support because his supporters dont have landlines....but 98% of the tens of millions with landlines who will vote Repub dont support him). And lines like this of his from the Iowa straw poll: "The terrorist attack on Sept 11 could have been prevented if we had had a lot more respect for the Second Amendment."are just plain nutty.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
08-13-2007, 08:05 PM | #107 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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08-13-2007, 08:28 PM | #109 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Hmm... Ron Paul wants to give terrorists guns.
The story goes they took over the planes with box cutters. This means that the people on the planes weren't going to do anything. They sat in their seats. Guns wouldn't have done shit, and that's a fact. |
08-14-2007, 04:24 AM | #110 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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This shouldn't make only Ron Paul supporters upset, but everyone who cares about fairness in elections. Yes, I know it's only a straw poll, but it's a microcosm of the kind of shit that happens nationwide on election days. Quote:
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. Last edited by samcol; 08-14-2007 at 04:28 AM.. |
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08-14-2007, 05:26 AM | #111 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I share your concern with the integrity of the election process, but no one stole from Ron Paul what he never had.
BTW, Paul voted against the bi-partisan Help America Vote Act of 2002 that requires States and localities to meet uniform and nondiscriminatory election technology and administration standards and provides tougher enforcement mechanisms for the Federal Election Commission. It passed in the House by a vote of 357-48. Last year, he also voted against the reauthorization of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, one of the landmark bills of our lifetime that guarantees that citizens are not disenfranchised. It passed 390-33. Way to go, Ron....your NO votes are really helping to ensure free and fair elections.....not.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2007 at 06:30 AM.. Reason: added link to HAVA and VRA |
08-14-2007, 06:33 AM | #112 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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You don't get how bills work do you? Just like in the other thread where you listed all the proposed bills by the democrats as evidence of them 'not doing nothing', the names of the bills almost never do what the title implies. So now instead of having occational localized voter fraud and problems, now we have nationalized voter fraud through diebold e-voting machines. Candidates no longer have to buy off hundreds of districts, they just have to buy off the centralized Diebold vote counting database. Don't forget last election the head of diebold said he is 'commited to delivering the election to Republicans. I'm wondering how many congressman Diebold had to buy to get this massive E voting machine contract that is the Help America Vote Act. All this did was waste more money, resources, and wasted what little integrity was left in the voting system. Sometimes it's nice to have a candidate that can't be bought. Tell me why Ron Paul should of voted for this again?
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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08-14-2007, 06:42 AM | #113 (permalink) | |||
Location: Washington DC
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I dont suggest any pierce of legislation is perfect....but these two are pretty damn good despite Ron "DR NO" Paul's interpretation.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2007 at 07:29 AM.. |
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08-14-2007, 06:55 AM | #114 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Your right Diebold is the pinnacle of integrity and honesty in voting. If you actually believe that I've got some land on the moon I'm selling.
Diebold is a fucking joke.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
08-14-2007, 07:01 AM | #115 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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08-14-2007, 10:05 AM | #116 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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08-24-2007, 10:47 AM | #117 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Here's a link that came up on Digg today:
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives...0_election.php It's an interesting piece about whether the web really matters in elections yet. The text is too long to post here, but it's worth a read. The crux of it is that the net would suggest that we're headed for Obama v. Paul. Pauls say it's Clinton v. Giuliani. I think the latter is more likely.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
08-24-2007, 02:11 PM | #118 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The web has become an increasingly important (and inexpensive) way for a candidate to get his/her message out, but it has a long way to go before it becomes a reliable means of measuring voter sentiment.
The article does debunk the claim of the RP camp that traditional polls drastically undercount his real level of national support. Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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08-25-2007, 03:40 AM | #119 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Florida
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__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet |
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08-27-2007, 02:49 AM | #120 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Lake Mary, FL
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 08-27-2007 at 02:51 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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