Willravel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6750887.stm

So Willravel won't be donating to the Catholic church anymore. It's one thing to say "we don't approve". I don't particularly care for abortion myself. It's another thing to try to slow funding to procedures that prevent young women from having to resort to more dangerous methods out of desperation.

Not only that, but Amnesty International is one of the most important organizations in the world, IMHO. They aren't just involved in abortion. They are involved in human rights all over the planet.

The Vatican is fucking up, and if they don't shape up, I'm calling Benedict and letting him know that god doesn't exist. Let's see what he says to that.

Edit: better yet, I'm throwing my hat in the ring. Vote Atheist Pope 2012!!

Shauk

hahaha, will, man, you crack me up.

jorgelito

Nothing wrong with what the Vatican is doing. They are merely voicing their opinion which they are entitled too. Like all the people who purport to boycott oil in defiance of George Bush and his cronies, or those who boycott religious based companies.

It's also great that you are expressing your displeasure with the Catholic Church by not donating to them anymore.

However, keep in mind, they are benefactors to a mutlitude of charities. EX: Giving a great private school education to so many underpriviledged children. Their position on Amnesty International is only one of many. So maybe don't throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or at the very least, write a letter to them explaining why you are ceasing your donations, I think that would be more effective.

Willravel

It's hypocritical. Most of the pursuits of AI are frighteningly similar to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Not only that, but they are using their element of control over people. When Scientologists speak out against psychiatry and psychology, everyone is against them and calls them nuts. Am I the only one who remembers there was never a parable about the preggo teen and the long noonie hook that Jesus patiently explained to his apostles?

I think it's irresponsible and hypocritical for an organization as powerful as the Catholic church to tell people to boycott a moral organization like AI (I say AI, because I don't like spell checking anmesty. See?).
It's frustrating, though, because they have such a small overhead for donating to disasters. I donated a shitload to Katrina and almost all of it actually got to the people in need. I felt good about that. If there's another Katrina, I'll have to find another aid organization that has a low overhead like the Catholics, and I don't think there are any.
I plan on speaking briefly with a local priest who I usually go through for donations. He's a good guy, and I think he may be well connected with the church.

tecoyah

Fortunately, the Catholic church is almost irrelevant anymore. The once powerful, and respected institution has lost any Moral standing it once had in the minds of so many people that what would have been a "Call to Arms" 20 yrs. ago, is nothing but a whimper in the wind today.
Educated population, and blatant hypocracy have crippled the church forever....Probably not an entirely bad thing.

FoolThemAll

The Catholic Church isn't just involved in opposing Amnesty International, yet you apparently consider that sufficient grounds for opposing them. How could you then be critical of their opposition to a very, very, very good organization that supports murder?

I'm missing the misrepresentation and the hypocrisy here - someone fill me in.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

tecoyah

OK....as requested:

It would seem that regardless of the impact the organization has in the world in its attempts to better the lives of everyone, they are being boycotted for a neutral stance on the vague issue of fetal rights by an organization that has pretty much ignored its own incredible damage done to children through sexual manipulation going back hundreds of years. They are trying to force the religious standards they hold upon a non religious movement through monetary means, primarily because the Catholic Church no longer has any other weapon at its disposal.

Seriously...the Christ would weep if he could see what Catholisism has become.

Charlatan

Christ would weep to see Christianity.


That said, I find it interesting how this parallels Bush doctrine. I believe as one of Bush's first actions when he took office, he pulled the funding from Aid organizations that allowed abortions or taught anything other than abstinence (I don't think I have that wrong).

I am not suggesting a link, rather just making an observation.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

FoolThemAll

So... because molestation occured in their ranks, they can't oppose abortion?

This is why I think "Hypocrite!" is usually a bad argument.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Infinite_Loser

I'm not Catholic, but is there any kind of evidence to back up such an unsubstantiated claim? The last I checked, the Catholic church was the world's largest self-interest group and continues to be so.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

tecoyah

Actually, No......the hypocracy comes from a lack of action to deal with the molestation crisis, while taking action against an very helpful organization simply because they wont tow the church line on abortion. They aren't even in opposition to the church on this, they simply remain neutral. The church has no right to cast the first stone.

noodlebee

Why can't the Catholic church just set up agreement "Our money can be used for all good causes but not for[list of opposing beliefs]"?

tecoyah

No, there is not anything more substantial than what I see as obvious. The statement was my opinion, and should require no evidence beyond my own observations. It may very well be that the number of baptized is increasing...but this does not inherently increase the percentage of devout.

Willravel

Amnesty international does not support abortion, they are just not against it. There is a marked difference between the two stances.

And for cutting funding, I'm trying to make clear how hypocritical their actions are by doing something similar. The Catholic church does several things I don't like, including the indoctrination of millions of people around the world, but it never stopped me from donating to disaster relief. I didn't make that clear enough above, my bad (sometimes I'm too subtle...).
See above.

joshbaumgartner

Naturally, the Vatican is fully within its rights to make such a call to boycott Amnesty. Whether or not it is the right thing to do is a different matter. Both the Catholic Church and Amnesty Intl. are organizations which do an immense amount of good work for those people on the planet that are in the greatest need. It is unfortunate that they would have to come to odds over this issue, but that is the nature of the abortion debate, I suppose.

While the Catholic position is quite hardline on the issue of abortion, I don't think I'd use the word hypocritcal, since unlike many of the conservative Christian groups who tout 'sanctity of life', they go beyond opposition of abortion and also fight hard against all threats to life, including war and the death penalty.

As I haven't made any contributions however to either organization, I guess this won't change my donation habits anyway. I am an anti-abortion pro-choice person myself, so I don't seek to eliminate access to abortion, but instead, I'd rather tackle demand. Supporting better pre- and post-natal care, universal healthcare, especially for families, economic equality, more effective education, boosting families, and improving the adoption process are all ways to reduce the need for abortion and the number of abortions without driving women back to dangerous methods or putting them under the yoke of their impregnators.

roachboy

as much as a detest ratzinger now benedict, i dont see this action as hypocritical. i see is as a wrong move, a bad idea, but not as hypocrisy. whatever you might think of the catholic church these days it is a hell of a lot more consistent in its politics re. this issue of "life" than say any american protestant group is--at least the church connects the dots together and so links its (retrograde) contraception policies, its (retrograde) abortion policies to a kind of bland pacifism and a kind of vague preference for better material conditions for the poor than the present order allows for. most american "prolife" organizations dont manage even that.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

I jusr don't get it, all the problems in the world, wars, famine, Darfur, the ever widening gap between rich and poor, ALL of which Amnesty International tries to deal with and figure solutions for...... and we won't mention, priests being pedophiles, the church in not so great public standing...... and the church is more worried about Amnesty's stance on arbortion??????? And Amnesty isn't supporting abortion or making it available... they are fighting for women to have a choice. Women should have the choice, governments, churches etc... should educate and counsel the women on their choices, not persecute them.

WOW.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

FoolThemAll

"We are saying broadly that to criminalise women's management of their sexual reproductive right is the wrong answer" is not a neutral position.

Your position on hypocrisy, taken reductio ad absurdum, would mean that only saints can act to counter anything negative. Here's a concrete and familiar comparison: "How can the democrats be against the Patriot Act when FDR rounded up the Japanese Americans during World War II? Total hypocrites!"

If the church is right to speak out against Amnesty International, then it's right to speak out against Amnesty International. Even if they protected child molestors. If the church is wrong here, then it's wrong either way.

The alleged hypocrisy is irrelevant. Even if it really exists and isn't merely a snide attempt to guilt an organization into inaction.

(Edited out lacking response.)

The two stances have something in common, though: influence. And AI has a hell of a lot of it. It's a big organization. When they make a statement like the above, it has an effect.

And the article reads a little bit differently than your interpretation. Seems there is some level of support for abortion.

Good idea. As that old saying goes, "Two wrongs make a right".

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Willravel

I'm not doing anything wrong at all. I'll still donate, just to a different organization. I wonder, is the Vatican going to support another organization that fulfills the same role as Amnesty International, simply minus the stance on abortion?

FoolThemAll

Fair enough.

If the Vatican did so, would you no longer find fault with their action? (Or at least be able to respect their decision while disagreeing?)

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Willravel

I'd be pissed at them because I love Amnesty International so much, but I'd probably continue donating through them.