It seems obvious that we must secure the border first. What is the point of deporting illegals if they can just come back in right away?

Deport 'em to Iraq. At the end of a two year deployment, sign their green card.

How do you propose to "secure" a 2,000 mile border (and that's just the southern one)? Especially when most big business and agriculture really would like you to NOT secure it completely?

I think another approach can be to offer hard working people an opportunity to offer their skills in a manner that affords them and their employers dignity. If a person can obtain a temporary worker's permit, they won't sneek across the border. If an employer can employ people from other countries "in the light of day", better controls can be put in place to monitor employment activites, etc. Building bigger and bigger fences will lead to more and more creative ways to get around, over or under the fence, given the potential for work on the other side.

I agree and those who follow the rules and enter our country legally should be given that opportunity. Those who break the law and enter illegally should not be allowed to stay and should get in line behind the law abiding immigrants.

Didn't America do something like that to the Irish already?

I don't know but it is something that must be done. Some businesses and agriculture would probably be for using slave labor if they could get away with it.

There have been many time in our history when laws have been wrong and people have violated those laws. Legality doesn't define what is right and what is wrong only what is legal and what is illegal. The "they broke our laws" argument is pretty weak in my opinion.

I agree with you in general. But I see nothing wrong with our country having laws trying to control the number of people who want to immigrate here and I especially don't think those who cut in line should benefit from it.

Current immigration law does allow for employers to hire people from other countries as temporary workers. USCIS Form I-129: Petition for a non immigrant worker. (Link)
In my view, for every illegal alien that a US employer manages to hire and get away with it, that make one less spot for a potential legal alien to receive a job in the US.

The only issue I have with the whole "illeagal problem" is that they broke the law when they entered the country. The employers break the law when they hire them. Nobody in the government does anything about it.

I don't have a problem with people coming here to work and better themselves, but I do have a problem with the government ignoring the rule of law.

Change the law if you must, but while it stands it must be enforced.

This is a progressive mindset and you've earned my admiration.

This is pretty basic.

Well, honestly, I expected a different view of immigration from Debaser. I was surprised.

Why did you expect a different point of view from me?

I dunno, actually. I suppose it had to do with your stance on gun control and the fact you are military (278th ACR of the National Guard, if I remember). Usually, those go hand in hand with the 'go home' attitude.
Which is why I said "I dunno" just above.

I don't want this to get too off track.

Ah but will, you of all people should know not to judge or stereotype others eh?

I am a rugged individualist. That means I am truly conservative and classicaly liberal. Advocating gun ownership is classical liberalism at its most basic.

Suffice to say that you would be suprised about the variety and preponderance of views about many things within the military community.

From an economic perspective, the arrival of migrant workers is only the natural correction of a market inefficiency.

If people are able to enter the country and find work, their doing so enriches us as a country - although it's true that those workers competing directly with the newcomers will be worse off.

The problems attendant to 'illegal immigration' can be much better addressed by adapting the legal mechanisms we use to deal with these moving labor flows. Providing an easier route to citizenship would be one way to handle it; another way might be to offer working and residence permits while preserving citizenship as a more difficult status to achieve. This would make both Americans and incoming workers better off, while minimizing potential concerns about the eventual impact of changing demographics on our electoral politics.

I truly have a hard time comprehending the 'keep them out' attitude that one sometimes encounters in this debate. The appeal to law and order is another way of framing it that, frankly, does more to obfuscate than illuminate. In the context of debating our own laws, it is meaningless to simply refer back to the very same law that is under scrutiny.

I would agree if we had not let this get so out of control with 12 million people here illegally. at this point we need a workable solution that takes into consideration the reality that we can not round up 12 million people and send them home. we have had a blind eye to this situation because of the economic benefit, we are at fault as much as the federal governement and the illegals. Is there anyone who can honestly say they have not received some economic benefit from illegal labor?

And there it is. I agree with you 100% on this point, Ace.

You are right in that we have let this situation get out of hand but I am not so sure that everyone benefits from illegal (less expensive) labor. Where I live most of the illegals work in the construction, manufacturing and restaurant industry. The business owners and customers benefit from lower labor costs but not so much the legal workers who also work at those jobs.

I bet if the managers in those businesses were being replaced by illegals they wouldn't be touting the advantages of the lower wages so much.

It strikes me as odd that a local owner of a contracting business would turn his back on guys he has worked with for years to save a few bucks on a bid for a new project. I wouldn't do that. But if I were having problems filling jobs, I might hire illegals.

I would also think an experienced construction worker who knows his job, the language would generally be more productive and more skilled than an illegal. But anyway it seems unlikely that local government officials and people building homes, stores, office buildings, roads, etc. did not know illegals were on the jobsite. Also I wonder why the local trades unions where silent on the issue.

I am going to go to hell for posting in politics. I feel my butt clenching already, the heat is rising and I am sitting in a handbasket. Here are my 2 unwanted cents.

Illegals have an employment problem. So do we. I see american citizens struggling to find piss poor paying jobs and here comes an illegal willing to work for peanuts. Fair? No.

When america can support a job market for all of its tax paying citizens, then perhaps we can help out the other countries with their issues.

Better yet, if all the illegals want to come here, lets give them america and we can all move to Mexico. Seems a popular enough vacation spot.

When are we gonna start worrying about our own country instead of playing mommy to the rest of the world. One of these days our jabbing our nosesaround where they dont belong is gonna kill us all. We are the United States of America, not the world police of america.

/ Sages 2 cents.

Mexico is especially heinous and hypocritical. Their immigration policy makes the US looks like an open door state. They are very harsh with illegals that enter their countries and have very zealous border agents as well. Mexico has been criticized by the UN Human Rights Commissioner of violating illegals (mostly from Guatemala) human rights at the border and in deportation centers along the Mexico-Guatemala border.

I'm not sure but I vaguely remember there may even be a wall or fence along the border between Mexico and Guatemala (I cannot verify this at the moment).

Anyways, I much prefer a more liberal immigration policy period. It's the illegals I have an issue with.

Had to bump this thread again so I could insert a little comic relief from the Onion...
<embed src="http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/common/assets/videoplayer/flvplayer.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowScriptAccess="always" wmode="transparent" width="400" height="355" flashvars="file=http://www.theonion.com/content/xml/59953/video&autostart=false&image=http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Immigration.jpg&bufferlength=3&embedded=true&title=Immigration%3A%20The%20Human%20Cost"></embed><br/><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/video/immigration_the_human_cost?utm_source=embedded_video">Immigration: The Human Cost</a>

I apologize for responding to a post that is so early in this conversation, and I am aware that there are 3 more pages of discussions after it, but that segment of pushpull's post is one I have to argue.

Mexican people who live in america, whether legal or not, is part of your society, whether you want to accept it or not. They grow your food, cook it, serve it, bus the table after you're done eating. They build your cars, your houses, the buildings you work in, and they get paid less than you would if you were doing it.
And the use of the term "leeching" is offensive. It makes it sound like they are parasites or vermin feeding off of you. The fact is, whether American factories are located on US soil or Mexican soil, it's often Mexicans that work in them, for much cheaper wages, so USA also "leeches" a lot out of Mexico.
Your society is based on immigrants living in a same nation, and I think our neighbor from south of the border deserve more respect than that.

The only culture that is curernlty developing away from the past in Europe, is the supplantation of the dominant culture by radical islam, which has already through force of intimidation changed the outcome of a national election in spain and effected, or would that be affected, national policy in several countries.

I will admit that the American Culture is somewhat schizophrenic but to state that America has no culture of its own is erroneous. America has culture that has been exported to the rest of the world for the last 100 years. Jazz music, Hollywood, Fundamental Protestant Christianity, these are all things that mark the American Cultural Identity.

bump

there absolutely is...i'm all for letting people work in our country, but they shouldnt get the benefits we all have to pay for with taxes if they are not paying taxes themselves...i don't feel the gov. is really doing anything to kick the aliens out either.