Walking Shadow

Or is it a creation of the neo-conservative wing of the Republican party?

If you listen to Rush Limbaugh/Bill O'Lielly/Sean Hannity/John Gibson or other conservative talking heads and radio show hosts, you'd think that the legal US population is tearing their hair out because of all of the illegal immigrants pouring across the Southern border. And thus, the politicans were stirred to act and have a pointless debate and put forth an utterly meaningless immigration bill that will do nothing, except give them an excuse to point and say, "See, we tried to do something, but our hands were tied."

In my part of the country, New Englandish, there is virtually no talk about immigration, illegal or otherwise and my brother out in California doesn't hear anything about it from his friends either.

So is it a bullshit illusion or what?

Push-Pull

Coming from the southwest, no it is NOT a bullshit illusion. There may be an exaggeration in some cases, but in general, it's there. Do a Google on how many emergency rooms have closed because they simply can't afford to stay open with the dearth of uninsured, which includes a large portion of illegals. Better yet, try to get care in an emergency room in LA and see what you're up against.

I'm not even going to try and be politcal on this topic, but there is enough factual evidence to make me know that there is a problem....

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

Telluride

I'd say that 10 - 20 million people thumbing their noses at our borders and sovereignty is a problem.

Yeah, but in fairness, illegal immigration probably isn't as big of an issue in places like New England that probably don't have as many illegal immigrants. And what your brother hears or doesn't hear from his friends doesn't necessarily mean much. Just because people aren't talking about something doesn't mean it isn't going on. My friends don't say much about the war in Iraq, for example, but it's still happening. I live in California and I hear plenty about illegal immigration.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Kadath

Push-Pull, I took your advice and Googled the topic, and what I found was a lot of opinion pieces about it, but precious little news coverage (there was a Fox News piece on it, but it was light on research and long on opinion). Either the MSM doesn't want to cover this story, or it's not as much of an issue as certain people are making it. Perhaps it's being inflated for political purposes?

__________________
it's quiet in here

Willravel

I see less ill effects than a lot of media outlets are laying out. The health care thing is BS. The idea that they commit more crimes (besides simply being here, which is victimless) is BS. The idea that they are a source of gang crime more than our own citizens is BS. The idea that it's easy to get here legally is BS (at least from impoverished countries).

Yes, there are concerns, mainly that they are breaking a law, but civil disobedience to bring about positive change in law or society is what I'm all about. I'm not saying they're all consciously doing this, but that's the effect.

Still, it'd be nice if more made the effort to learn English. My Spanish is still pretty bad.

Telluride

I'm not convinced that millions of people undermining America's sovereignty by ignoring our borders constitutes "positive change".

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

International corporations are a bigger threat to sovereignty than any number of Mexicans. Positive change is mutually beneficial economic and social change between allies and neighbors. If we kick out all the Mexicans, their economy would collapse and we could see a Mexican civil war spill into SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Do you really want that to happen? Are you pro war on American soil?

Telluride

Uh, I didn't say anything about kicking out all the Mexicans, or about Mexicans at all. Not all illegal immigrants are Mexican and not all Mexicans are illegal immigrants. I said I'm not convinced that millions of people undermining America's sovereignty by ignoring our borders constitutes "positive change". To borrow a quote from you, "I'm not saying they're all consciously doing this, but that's the effect."

I believe that America needs to maintain its sovereignty. If that results in a civil war in Mexico that spills into parts of America, our government will just have to deal with it. Sometimes sovereignty comes at a price.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

I usually use them, as they are a good example.
They aren't just undermining our sovereignty. They're contributing to the GNP. They're doing work that most Americans wouldn't do. I'd hardly call that negative.
Oh man, do I really sound like that?
Sovereignty has changed over the past 100 years, or even in the last 15. Being isolationist isn't an option, as our economy is intertwined with many other economies around the world, including Mexico (can you imagine if Mexico kicked out all the Ford manufacturing plants, in the name of sovereignty? I doubt many people would but a baseline Excursion for $45,000 and $100,000 for a Mustang).

We're better off working with them.

Telluride

People who ignore our borders/immigration laws are undermining our sovereignty regardless of what they may do once they get here.

Yeah, but less italic-like.

Believing that we should have a border isn't isolationism. Anyway; I'd doubt that Ford would try to sell a basic Mustang or Mustang GT for $100,000 regardless of where it was built. Plenty of vehicles from various car companies are built in America, and I don't think many of them cost $100,000 or more.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

So all they are doing wrong is breaking a law? There aren't any further problems? If that's the case, then what use is the law? The terrorists that attacked on 9/11, according to the official story, got here 100% legally, so it's not a safety issue. They don't need to cross the Rio Grande to attack us.
Ah, but Ford depends on how cheaply they can build their cars. Subaru has plants here, but their sales are excellent, and they are efficient at building. Ford can't compete with their sales vs. production and efficiency. If their level of efficiency were here in the US, it would cost a great deal more to produce their cars.

filtherton

If you can call an abundance of cheap labor a crisis...

jorgelito

Crime is a problem: human smuggling, drug running, gang activity etc. These coyotes and snakeheads are real criminals preying upon would be immigrants.

Stress on infrastructure: emergency rooms etc. Gang activity (by illegals) and illegal immigrants put enormous pressure on our hospitals and resources.

New England actually experienced a mini crisis of illegal immigrants during the 70s and 80s - many Irish were coming to NE in droves and often involved in NRA activity (definitely criminal). Same with a lot of Chinese illegals running up crime in Boston (gang activity, human trafficking etc).

Nowadays, tons of illegal Chinese are crossing the Mexican border to enter our country illegally because it is so easy to violate the Mexican portion of our border (relatively speaking). The other method being overstaying their visas. With the propensity of Chinese students inthe Ivy Leagues, it is easy to see why New England has illegal immigrant activity.

The Chinese problem is particlaurly interesting. Deportation is costly and not very effective due to lack of Chinese cooperation.

Illegal immigrant Russian girls are proliferate in Boston, New York, Chicago as hookers as part if criminal gang activity. Ditto many east Euorpean illegals too.

In SoCal, lots of SE Asians brought in illegally as "slaves" for the rich, mainly in Beverly Hills.

As far as So Cal. Too many examples to cite.

A lot of hit and run by illegals. My buddy was in an accident. The other guy was an illegal and didn't have insurance so my buddy was SOL.

I used to work with a lot of illegals. Awful workers. They did not come on time if they showed up at all. Didn't follow instructions very well. They would bring their homeland conflicts with them. We had to separate the Hondurans from the Guatemalans, the Peruvians from the Ecuadorians, and everyone from the Mexicans. Apparently the Mexicans were the most arrogant and also refused to work with the blacks. I'm sure some of the illegals were good workers but more often than not, my experince has not been positive.

On the other side, as a customer, trying to deal with an illegal worker was just as frustrating. Since these people could not speak English, they could not provide me with good customer service. It was always some kind of Chinese, Spanish or whatever. I appreciate cultural diversity but come on now.

I think the Mexican thing gets more attention cause of all the politicians trying to pander to the ill-conceived notion of a Latino vote.

Just wanted to add:

I think much of the problem or crisis with illegal immigration is due to its illegal nature. A lot of the illegal activity involved is associated with the illegal nature of illegal immigration, fueling criminal activity. If anyone is interested in exploring this angle further, then we should open up another thread.

ShaniFaye

Hell....come to metro atlanta (especially the county I live in) you'll see more "immigrants" than you can shake a stick at. Cruise around the local shopping mall parking lots on saturday mornings and they are full of "immigrants" looking to be picked up for some day job.

our county...Gwinnett also has the highest concentration of Hispanic buying power in the metro area — about...Between 1990 and 2000, Gwinnett's Hispanic/Latino population soared from 8,470 to 64,137, according to the U.S. Census. By 2007, the county's Hispanic community is expected to reach 100,000.

and yes, with all the INS raids we have around here...most of them are illegal

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

dksuddeth

what possible good do you see from social change because of massive illegal immigration?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Social change? How about a better understanding of the culture of one of our two neighbors. Think of how Europe is. They are stronger because they are the melting pot that the US used to be. The US would be stronger if we supported and didn't exploit our neighbors to the South. We need to learn to think of immigrants (and I name Mexicans most because they are the most represented) as people that are crashing until things get fixed at home. We should, as good friends and neighbors, do what we can to help them. I'm not saying they should stay here forever and just suck the teet, but letting them crash is the right thing to do. If you want to end illegal immigration, go to their country and teach them a trade that can help their economy.

One thing I think people forget about is how immigration is having a positive effect on wages, and supplying much needed labor that would mean that families that totally live in the US would make relatively less.

dksuddeth

I do that everytime I take a vacation there. The mexican culture is great....as long as it stays in mexico. The American culture is great and shouldn't 'melt' into a conglomeration of many like the europeans. If you think the Euro Union is stronger for their 'melting pot', you should be paying more attention to the cultural strife they are currently dealing with.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

There's no such thing as an American culture, so no worries there. Europe is already stronger than we are culturally, and it will only get better the more they integrate and the farther they develop from their past.

dksuddeth

WHAT?!?!?! how did we get along after 200 some years without a culture of our own. damn.

I disagree, wholeheartedly.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

By culture you mean patterns of intra-social behavior and organizations of norms and significant customs, right? Then I guess we have apathy, changing lanes without signaling, and consumerism. I'd hardly call that culture. The only thing close to culture we have in the US is religion.
Agree to disagree it is, then.

Kadath

So by "immigrants" you mean "brown people", right? Because I'm pretty sure in just about any major city you will see a lot of immigrants. There's where first generation immigrants settle, due to easy access to public transportation, cheap housing, large populations of their ethnic group, unskilled labor, etc.

__________________
it's quiet in here

ShaniFaye

the hispanic population here is ridiculous...and I mean that seriously.

I run a wedding board...where several of our girls are trying to get their husbands to be from other countries...the legal way and it takes YEARS and a lot of money to do it. When I see all hispanics here that come for 9 months out of the year to make cash under the table...live 12 to an apartment (and no thats not an exaggeration ) it makes me sick

You wanna come here? fine...do it legally, dont make me have to sit outside some area I need to do business in..waiting.. while the INS is loading trucks up.

I don't partiuarly enjoy living in a place where the city councils actually had to pass an ordinance that business signs had to be in english as well because they were all being put up in spanish only.

In 2000 our county had 14% of the entire states hispanic people. Considering the population has jumped from 64k to over 100k in just 7 years I dread to see just how much worse its going to get.

The hispanic gang activity gets worse here every month. You have gang member wannabes standing on gas station corners shooting at random cars driving down the road.

I say send their asses back to mexico.....now..and when they can pay the money to "immigrate" the proper way, then fine.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Kadath

ShaniFaye, you are coming across as fairly racist. You are implying that the presence of Hispanic people has a negative impact on your area.

__________________
it's quiet in here

ShaniFaye

well thats your opinion....as someone that has been in the county since 1976 I know exactly what kind of impact the ILLEGALS have had. Im not racist....Im just saying the ILLEGALS are causing more than their fair share of strife. I have yet to see an INS raid that involved koreans or the vietnamese that live here.

I dont see the asian culture (that also has a very big presence here now) causing near the problems. The majority of people here arrested for "gang" activity are not black or asian...they are hispanic.

If you want to define me as "racist" because the facts support that its the illegal hispanics causing the problems then be my guest...but you'd be wrong.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ratbastid

There are social effects of immigration that are, in my opinion, best dealt with as social phenomena. Crime, stress on the health care infrastructure, etc. Those things are a function of population density and economic distribution, not of the racial makeup of a society. Washington DC didn't need immigration to become the murder capital, for instance--other forces were at work that caused that. Saying that Mexicans or Chinese are inherently more criminal or gang-inclined is flat-out racist.

Immigrants don't come to American in order to "undermine our sovereignty", whatever the hell that means. That explanation requires taking the immigration situation personally, as an affront to you and your precious notion of America. That reaction has very little to do with reality. That IS the reaction that's largely being pumped by conservative talking-heads.

To understand immigration, you have to understand the immigrant. Why do they come to America? Because their situation at home is economically unworkable, and they see the hope of a new future in the US. For many of them, coming to the US, working their asses off, and sending as much money home as they can is the only way to keep their families alive.

Joining a gang doesn't help with that. All they really want is to work and be left alone. You might think, well a crime where they steal a bunch of money would be attractive to them--but they know if they're caught, they're gone, and they're smart enough not to risk that. Notice how we're not all "oh, those damn immigrants... always robbing banks!" Mostly they want to live quietly, and under the radar.

My suspicion (and I say this the way I say it very deliberately) is that the reason Most White Americans have a problem with immigration is the same reason they would have a problem with cockroaches living under their sink. It's the same reason Most White Americans aren't completely horrified at the Iraqi casualty count. I assert that in the eyes of Most White Americans, brown people's lives simply aren't worth as much as pink people's lives. It's institutionalized racism that goes unchallenged and unquestioned. I accuse us all (including myself) of that.

Now: I'm not in favor of blanket amnesties. But I think it would serve everyone to have our immigration policy looked at from the view of what works best for the most people, and a REALISTIC view of the benefit that the current level of illegal immigration does for our economy (which is HUGE).

My question for the immigration foes of the world (and of TFP, for that matter): if immigration in general was open, free, and legal (like it probably was when your ancestors came over, by the way), would you have a problem with the current level of immigration?

Push-Pull

Firstly, I want to say that this debate has been a lot more civil than originally thought. Most other sites, this debate would have come to flame wars very quickly....Thumbs up to all TFPer's.

And now, more thought fodder...Illegals ARE a problem. Some of us justify it by saying how they contribute to the greater good with the GNP and doing work that none of us would do and such. Let's put a different light on that.

Like ShaniFaye said, in our areas, it is not uncommon to see a large group of illegals amassed outside stores like Lowe's and Home Depot waiting for some contractor to pick them up for work. One Home Depot in particular is located across the street from a Staples. The illegals are so bad in that area, that Home Depot finally had to force them from entering the lot. So then the illegals gather across the street at Staples. Unfortunately for Staples, there is enough right of way on the side of the street that they can't force them off their lot. They just have to put up with it. Numbers go down, and the store eventually closes.

An old neighbor hood was fairly well kept, then the low mortgage rates in the early/mid 90's takes hold, housing becomes a lot more affordable. A Mexican family moves in. Then others move in to the same house. Before long, relations of this family have purchased a few other houses in close proximity. There are junker cars, loud music, pot smoking, numerous police visits, and even an INS visit. Now, the home value in the immediate area has gone down dramatically, and other older home owners are losing money in a market that should have been pretty stable.

Now, I have actually witnessed, heard, and smelled both events. I doubt there's a news report, but they did happen.

Now let's replace "Mexican" and "illegal" with "white" or "colored" and "poor" and "legal". What's the difference? Difference is if the market and economy of an area is going to be dragged down by "legal" persons, than that is a function of society. If that's what it's like to be part of society, then I can accept that. But these people aren't a part of our society. They haven't come here legally, most don't want to assimilate, and they are not part of our society. Part of Mexico's society have decided to come here and still be Mexico's society. They don't integrate with ours, they only leech off of it.

The short of it is this. If they would come here and really want to be part of our society like so many others before them, then I could see how this would be a "non-problem". But that isn't happening, and I think that a lot of Americans are getting frustrated by that.

Now, a potential solution.....Most coyotes are charging into the thousands of dollars to smuggle a person into our country. I say that America set up a policy to where anyone who wants to become a citizen can pay $2000 dollars to do so provided they pass a very basic english skills test and of course, a background check. This would allow for "legal" immigration AND reduce the crime rate along the border dramatically.

Just a thought.....

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

ShaniFaye

I whole heartedly agree with push-pull. One of my main problems is...there is no attempt at assimilation. If I wanted to live in a hispanic, asian etc culture I'D MOVE TO THAT COUNTRY and would expect my self to speak the language etc. I expect the people that move to America to to do the same. The ones in our county make no effort at all to even learn english. How can you successfully cohabitate a community where you cant communicate with each other.

If I moved to France or Spain or Germany etc, I would learn the language and wouldnt get pissed off because not everyone knew english.

Property values are down because of the exact example given above. The illegals move several families in one house/apartment/duplex and then dont take care of anything. They let it get run down so badly its pathetic.

I know Ratbastid sometimes stays in the Jimmy Carter Blvd are of Norcross (which is the city I moved from a year ago to try to get away from the worst part of it). Im sure he has noticed how bad things are on that road.

As to his question...If they were here legally AND not trying to "take over" then no I wouldnt have a problem with it.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

dksuddeth

anyone who sees this

and still denies the 'reconquista' crap or that the illegals aren't out to undermine our soveriegnty, that it's just a vast right wing nut conspiracy to pump the masses full of fear, doesn't have the intellect necessary to deal with the issue squarely and honestly.

Sorry rat, but you hold zero credibility on the illegal immigration issue.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Telluride

All murderers, car thieves, tax evaders and jaywalkers are doing wrong is breaking a law. The law that illegal immigrants are breaking happens to be an important one. It's a law that's designed to protect America's sovereignty. The most basic requirement for a sovereign nation - and hell, when push comes to shove, the ONLY requirement for a sovereign nation - is recognized borders. With that in mind, I don't take it lightly when people choose to ignore our immigration laws.

It wasn't all that long ago that American cars were built in America by American citizens. Oddly enough, these cars were sold by dealerships for much less than $100,000. If getting kicked out of Mexico means that Ford has to sell a $20,000 - $30,000 car for $100,000 in order to remain profitible, it tells me that there are serious problems within the company that have nothing to do with foreign labor.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

EaseUp

Shall we take that on faith, or can you back up your opinion?

ratbastid

Want to give some context for that picture? Because I could set up a picture like that in my backyard and then wave it around to try and make some point. Or would you rather just insult the people who disagree with you?

Without the story behind that picture, I declare it baseless propaganda.

...Because I disagree with you and are therefore stupid.

Perilously close to a personal attack, there, dk. Certainly an ad hominem response to any opinion that disagrees with yours.

Willravel

So none of those crimes have victims? Sorry, that statement doesn't stand up.
This was before the US corporations realized that they could produce cars outside the US for a lot less money. The system, as it is now, is dependent on that saving of money. You can see as well as I can that even with the cars being built so cheaply they need to lay off workers. Imagine that savings was suddenly removed. Mercury would die, and other companies would be sure to follow. That's the reality.
I'm defending, not prosecuting, but I'll humor you.

Health Care: The actual reason behind the rise in costs are shortages in staff (nurses, doctors), consumer-targeted adds by pharmaceutical corporations, mismanagement, abuse, lack of attention to prevention, the number of uninsured Americans continues to grow, malpractice lawsuits, insurance companies, and people think that illegal immigrants are playing some huge role in the rising cost of health care? Give me a big fat break. We have screwed up our own system without any help needed from immigrants.

Crime: There was just a thread about this recently, when talking about that immigrant with the DUI. I had a link to an article on MSNBC, but it was removed. The story was covered by other outlets, fortunately:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/84831
http://iblnews.com/story_en.php?id=23489
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...le_1591720.php
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/11128949/detail.html
Illegal immigrants are less likely to commit a crime than a natural citizen. It's pretty cut and dry.

Do you have any sources to contend with this information? Or is you're assumption that I'm wrong just opinion?

ShaniFaye

RB it was a student protest against immigration reform, done March 2006 in a high school in california, you can read about it on snopes

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Willravel

I strongly request that you either list your qualifications and prove that rat has none, or take this statement back.

Kadath

I would really enjoy some honesty here. People who say "illegal immigrants" mean Hispanic illegal immigrants. No one is crying about European or Asian or African (screw you, Australia!) immigrants. And some people obviously don't draw a distinction between legal and illegal Hispanic immigrants because they all look the same and no one would bother to check to see if they are legal. So they assume that all brown people are illegal immigrants. And they also assume they are here to take over America.

What exactly are they going to take over? Other countries (including this one) have experienced waves of immigrants without losing national sovereignty or identity. The way immigrant populations become acclimatized to the US is as follows: The first generation usually speaks little or no English. Their children (2nd generation) speak both their native tongue (English!) and their parents' native tongue. And the 3rd generation speaks only English and is generally indistinguishable from a person whose forebears have been in America for many generations. The Mexicans are not going to take over or ruin America, and to say otherwise is ignorant fear mongering and bigoted.

__________________
it's quiet in here

Telluride

If someone breaks into your home but doesn't steal, damage, destroy or even touch anything, should it still be a crime? Why is trespassing, in and of itself, a crime? These are issues of property rights, and national borders determine where one country's property rights end and another's begin.

It sounds to me like these US corporations made their own beds and, at some point, may be forced to lie in them. And do we have any credible evidence that Mexico would kick Ford out if America ever got the balls secure its borders? It would be silly for an impoverished nation to intentionally eliminate a source of decent jobs just out of spite.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

ShaniFaye

so since you're on the racist tangent again, let me make sure I have this clear....because some of us would prefer the hispanics take the time trouble and money to enter illegally we are bigoted? You are seriously sitting their saying that wanting someone to obey the immigration laws...we are bigoted? Because the majority of illegals in my county that are rounded up and shipped back home are hispanic, I'm bigoted?

I cant speak for other nationalities in other areas because I dont live there....I can only speak for where I have called home for 31 one years, and YES its "brown people" "mexicans" "hispanics" "latinos" or whatever other name you want to call them. I don't care what nationality, if they are here without going thru the proper channels ITS WRONG, that is NOT "bigoted"

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

jorgelito

I think the issue is more complex than we give it credit for. You are assuming that we are assuming that all "brown" people (whatever that means) are illegal immigrant or Hispanic (which is quite wrong).

First, Hispanic is a language group that is hightly diverse within itself. It is NOT a race nor is it an ethnicity.

Rat, I don't think anyone said that Mexican or Chinese illegal immigrants were inherently criminal. I think the circumstances have created a criminal context. That is, the very illegal nature of their status has fostered a criminal activity environment. Note that I do not blame the illegals themselves per se (that's another thread). So often, their very arrival has criminal beginnings such as comeing here through human smuggling and then beholden to a debt often repaid through criminal activity. Like mentioned before, there are other groups like Russians etc too. Lets not all obssess over "Mexicans".

In answer to the other question, I have no problem with the numbers of people (immigrants etc). We have plenty of room and our nation thrives on its diversity and immigrant tenacity. I have a huge problem with the illegal status and manner in which these people would flagrantly flout our laws.

I have attended many citizenship ceremonies of my friends, the legal immigrants who patiently waited and followed the law and I am always honored and humbled by their commitment and loyalty.

The other issue raised, Reconquista and othe groups like La Raza, I think should be another thread. La Raza is mostly college kids who don't really know what they are talking about and don't quite see the irony in he fact that they are funded by the school and state to tout their racist and violent views. They are also mostly Americans as far as I can tell. I doubt some poor illegals dude would really want to run around with a group like that.

The Mexican side of the equation is an important one that needs discussion I think. They simply cannot get their act together. I know the US is not perfect but damn, their government makes ours look like saints. That is the biggest problem I think. Fixing their corruption so that their economy and society can function. If you can stabilize that country, then maybe relax the borders a bit, I think things will even out. Many of the illegals don't want to come and live in the US. They do not plan on living here. They just want to work and return to their families as soon as they can. So I don't anticipate some sort of Exodus or mass migration to El Norte. Maybe at first in a scramble for jobs or what have you. I think it would ultimately balance out (over time). And maybe you would even see a whole bunch of Gringos moving south, buying up houses in retirement communities (which has already happened but the Mexican government has crazy strict laws on foreigners and immigration, go figure).

Telluride

I thought I thought that anyone who enters this country illegally should be deported, regardless of what race they are or what country they come from. Imagine my surprise when I read your post and discovered that I actually thought that immigration laws should only apply to hispanics.

Maybe you should refrain from putting words in other people's mouths or trying to read their minds?

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Kadath

ShaniFaye, let me explain my read on what you say, and you can point out where I am misreading you.
I know you add after the fact that you only object to illegal Hispanic immigrants. But I don't see anything based on fact in your stance that it's just the illegal ones having this negative impact on your area. I know you think it's only the illegals who "move a ton of guys into a house and ruin it because they just don't care." I just don't see any actual basis for that.

To you and others who use the "I only object to illegal immigrants" defense, I ask you to answer honestly: Do you know who's illegal and who's not? It seems to me it's an easy way to deflect accusations of bigotry. You object to all people who are here illegally! It's just a coincidence you only talk about Hispanic immigrants. Talking about illegal immigration is code for attacking Hispanics. I think some people are honestly afraid a brown wave is going to drown white America. I think other people are racist. I think yet others are just easily manipulated, and yet more are just people who look for someone to blame.

Here near Philadelphia, there's a very clear dividing line where Philadelphia county ends, at Cheltenham Avenue. One one side is a slum, on another is a rapidly improving area. It has a great deal to do with the fact that the counties spend different amounts of money and make different efforts to improve, but it's also not a coincidence that there is a very large Korean immigrant population in the nicer neighborhood. They moved in and worked hard to improve the area. They don't embrace US culture: the signs are in Korean and it's an insular community. But they aren't trying to take over America; they're just trying to get their piece of the American dream.

__________________
it's quiet in here