05-09-2007, 06:45 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I agree, Democrats are in a tough position. When I said that perhaps one of the problems was in the way the Democratic Party message was being communicated, the first response was that it was my problem. At this point I am not just posting things for the sake of argument, I am interested in understanding how the Iraq problem can be solved. One way is the Bush way, which will cost billions more dollars and who know how many american lives. The other way is for the Democrats to over-come the obsticals and present a plan to the American people that we can understand and support.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-09-2007, 07:08 AM | #42 (permalink) | ||
spudly
Location: Ellay
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The way I see it, there are two possibilities here. The first would be a spending bill with some sort of verifiable and meaningful benchmarks for funding to continue. There is a lot of room within this for good and bad bills though, depending on the quality of the benchmarks. Ideally, these would be set up more to ensure meaningful progress in quality of life and security in Iraq, rather than embarrassing President Bush. Even those kind of standards would be hard enough to meet. The second would be to give Bush money, but only for the short term, forcing him to fight this funding battle over and over. I kind of like this because it is poetic justice in a way - Bush would be hoist in the very petard he created by keeping war funding out of the budget. If the public continues to perceive our presence in Iraq as a debacle, benchmarks couldn't save the President anyway - as ignoring the public will in high profile headline inducing budget fights would ruin the Republican party. Notice that neither of my suggestions are deadlines. Personally, I think that deadlines without reasons (built into the legislation) are almost the worst possible option, after funding with no strings attached and a long leash. Deadlines are a demagogic position, much like free money with no stipulations. They can too easily go awry tactically for the Iraqis, and they are too easily misportrayed by the opposition. I definitely agree that Congress needs to grow a pair and step up to its Constitutional responsibilities. The power of the purse means that they control funding. Bush's vetoes don't mean that Congress won't fund, it means that he won't accept the money they'll give. That could be a powerful rhetorical position - IMO it's the moral and ethical high ground. ___________________________________________________________ EDIT: May 10, 2007 10 AM Ace, this one's for you. This NY Times article indicates that support for the President's policies among the Republican members of the house isn't monolithic. Apparently the current debate is less about the democrats failing to articulate a plan than it is that these guys are just on board with the Pres until they have to jump ship, which may be soon. It'll be interesting to see if this meeting generates any softening of Bush's stance at all. I find Bush's comparison of what will happen upon withdrawal to South Asia post-Vietnam to be...surprising. In my opinion, the violence in Iraq will be much worse, at least in the short term. Quote:
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 05-10-2007 at 05:56 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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05-10-2007, 06:41 AM | #43 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I think public support for the war shifted a while ago, perhaps it takes some time for Washington insiders to get the message.
Members of Congress should spend more with the folks back home. If they do, when they represent us, they can do it with more confidence. Unfortunatley, our President (any President) is going to be the most sheltered person in Washington. My hat is off to the Republicans who have gone in to tell the President he needs to consider bringing the troops home.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
05-10-2007, 08:19 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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05-10-2007, 09:39 AM | #45 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-10-2007, 09:48 AM | #46 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Ace, here's hoping you are correct. The Washington Post reports that Bush is suddenly willing to talk about benchmarks:
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I think Bush almost certainly realizes that funding without strings that has to be renewed every few months is an invitation to a political bloodbath. Benchmarks are the best deal he is likely to get. If the troops ran out of money in the face of multiple vetoes, it will be much harder to spin things to blame the lack of money solely on the Dems.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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05-11-2007, 05:20 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The issue is not whether Bush will aceept benchmarks, but if he will accept benchmarks with consequences if they are not met.
Bush likes to say every few months that progress is being made in Iraq, but offers no measures, or even worse, false measures of that success. His latest pronoucement several weeks ago that the surge was beginning to show results is evident from the fact that civilian deaths are down in Iraq. What he didnt say is that the measure he used exluded deaths by car bombs. Quote:
he President shall transmit to the Congress a report in classified and unclassified form, on or before July 13, 2007, detailing--After 4 years of war and more than 2 years of an elected Iraq government in place, I think these are broad enough (without specific metric measures) for any reasonable person to accept We shall see what Bush will agree of if he will insist on even less specific and measurable "goals" rather than true benchmarks of progress...and what consequences he will accept if benchmarks are not met.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 05:47 AM.. |
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05-11-2007, 06:54 AM | #48 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I am still not clear on the consequences. Does Congress want full withdrawal of our military, partial? What role should we play in Iraq if the bench marks are not met? If we remove troops from Iraq, do they want a build-up in a nearby country?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
05-11-2007, 08:03 AM | #49 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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ace....the Dems took the redeployment timetable out of this specific bill as a concession to Bush and the Repubs in Congress. If the benchmarks are not met in the timeframe specified (or more likely by the end of the fiscal year, sept 30), Bush would have to make a new request for additional funding.
And, if the benchmarks are not met, I assume the Dems will then send him another bill with a timeframe and specifics for redeployment similar to what was in the earlier version Bush vetoed: Directs the President to commence the phased redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq no later than 120 days after the enactment of this Act, with the goal of redeploying, by March 31, 2008, all U.S. combat forces from Iraq except for a limited number essential for: (1) protecting U.S. and coalition personnel and infrastructure; (2) training and equipping Iraqi forces; and (3) conducting targeted counterterrorism operations.Hopefully, those Repub who have spoken publicly about the need for benchmarks to be met would support the follow-up bill in the numbers that would make it veto-proof. Its a tedious process and far from perfect, but that is how compromise works in politics. And compromise is the only way that we will find a way forward that a supermajority of Congress will support. It wont please the "fight to victory" crowd (whatever victory means) nor the "bring them all home now crowd"...but it will have.the support of the majority of the American people.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 08:06 AM.. |
05-11-2007, 08:19 AM | #50 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I understand what is being done short-term, but I am interested in knowing what the long-term goal is.
I think we are headed in the direction of removing our troops from Iraq, I just don't know what that means. And the problem is, I think it means different things to different people. I think we need clarity on this issue. Under the Bush plan our military comitment to Iraq was going to be virtually open-ended. Given the strategic location of Iraq, having a long-term military presence would be to our advantage as well as having a democratic Iraqi government supportive of our needs. If that is no longer our goal, what is?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
05-11-2007, 08:22 AM | #51 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Read the original Iraq Accountability Act that Bush vetoed. Its long and also tedious, but pretty clear on the goals and objectives.
Or google John Murtha and iraq funding and check out the youtubes with his remarks on meeting the stratgic goals in Iraq/Middle East as well as the goals of strengthening our military capacity that has been so depleted by the folly in Iraq.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
05-11-2007, 08:41 AM | #52 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHHSisbhoXE
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-11-2007, 08:49 AM | #53 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Take as long as you need to learn the facts
..and if you truly want to understand the position of some Dems ...have an open mind and listen to more than one commentary by Murtha (dont just listen to highly political floor speeches that are often a response to a speech you did not hear).
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 08:52 AM.. |
05-11-2007, 08:57 AM | #54 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I am more inclined to read House and Senate bills than the average American, I would hope there is a better way to get the message to the public.
Also, the bill was so full of b.s. it deserved to be veto'd on that issue alone. Where is a JFK or a FDR when you need one from the Democratic Party?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
05-11-2007, 09:11 AM | #56 (permalink) | ||
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I see that you are still an unrepenting "hope fiend". The people who you hold out the hope for doing "the right thing", are part of a criminal conspiracy that the evidence that I have, indicates ...and that I share on this forum....over and over.....masquerades as a political party. (They have supported Bush, in lockstep, have excersized no oversight over the executive branch....for at least 4 years, and they all were Tom Delays, "boys"....and, Jack Abramoff's, too !!!): Quote:
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05-11-2007, 09:52 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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meanwhile in iraq:
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i bolded one sentence. sounds like the arvn, doesn't it? vietnam anyone?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-11-2007 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: changed my mind twice |
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05-11-2007, 10:08 AM | #58 (permalink) | |||
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05-11-2007, 10:39 AM | #59 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Not saying these things are not needed, just in the wrong bill.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-11-2007, 10:50 AM | #60 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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ace....if you think Bush should have vetoed the supplemental based on this "bs", he should have vetoed every previous supplemental as well.
Bush's last supplemental request: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 10:57 AM.. |
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05-11-2007, 11:13 AM | #61 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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First you say I should read the bill to understand our goals in Iraq, I say did not read the bill and indicate that it is full of b.s., then at your request I cut and paste stuff in the bill that had nothing to do with the Iraq question, and now you say I don't understand appropriation bills.
You are correct, I don't understand appropriation bills and have no interest in understanding them. In my simple world, if the issue is funding the war, that should be the only focus of the bill. If Bush signed other bills with pork, that is his issue. If I were President I would have had a problem with pork in any bill, but I will never be President. You admit there is pork in the bill and pork in the last bill, I guess that means Bush is willing to compromise and build consensus ginven the fact that he signed the last bill. All I wanted to know is what our long-term goals are for Iraq after we pull-out and what pulling-out actually means.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
05-11-2007, 11:24 AM | #62 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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ace...most of those "non-war" funds are not pork ...as to the rest of it....if you dont want to understand what supplemental bills are all about..thats cool
and if you dont want to take the time to read or listen to what Democrats mean by strategic redeployment(beyond one floor speech by Murtha)...thats cool too Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-11-2007 at 11:35 AM.. |
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05-11-2007, 11:37 AM | #63 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I also think the accounting for this spending, being "off budget" is a joke. Who is kidding who with this. so like I said it is full of b.s.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-11-2007, 11:47 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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funding, iraq, reasonable, solution, statementor |
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