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Old 05-07-2007, 01:53 PM   #201 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
Yes. It's also irrelevant to the discussion, unless you really think that a difference of opinion over a foreign policy question is the same thing as a crime.
We broke a treaty signed in good faith, the UN Charter, and as a result of that breach hundreds of thousands of people we claimed to liberating are dead. How many times will I have to explain this before everyone will be on board?
Read this. It will explain what I've been saying for years.
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Old 05-08-2007, 11:42 AM   #202 (permalink)
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loquitur, I want to start by offering an apology to you for using your quote as an example. If I could think of another way to make my point, I would, but quoting you....someone who I do respect for your willingness to participate in discussions on this forum....you post what you think,,,you don't play games...

seems to me to be a clear way to respond to your post on the "Impeach Cheney" thread, and to respond to roachboy's statements, and most importantly to briefly and clearly examine the schism in American politics that might provide answers to why the Bush administration is still (permitted to be...) in power, and still at war in Iraq,


Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
As I said, people need some perspective here. When the come up with politically motivated tax audits, FBI investigations of opponents and discussions of raising bribe money, you might convince me we're getting there. Right now I don't see it. I do see some mismanagement and political overreaching but nothing qualitatively different from many other presidencies.

<b>I think people have to get over this notion that if your side loses an election the other side has to be deligitmated.</b> It wasn't any more attractive when the cranks on the right were trying to get Clinton charged with murder or claiming that Hillary had Vincent Foster bumped off.



I'll try to remember to write a longer post later, but my short-form response is that we should help where our help is likely to do good, and stay away where it's likely to be futile. In the short term we shouldn't try to help people who are likely to feel that what we consider help is actually a form of invasion. The trick is in knowing which is which. Long term, helping one group, if done right with a successful result, is likely to incentivize others to want to conform. But that's a long-term scenario, and presumes an ability to know what we're doing. We kinda made that mistake before, so I'd be very wary of making it again.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=198
<b>I remember this...I was entering kindergarten during the month that it happened...and it was talked about and printed and broadcast about, for the next 50 years:</b>
<center>
<img src="http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/central/images/central2.jpg"><br>
Orval Faubus, called out the National Guard to try to block integration four decades ago.

"That's when I knew that they were just not going to let me go to school ... that they were not there to protect me, too, like the other students," remembers Elizabeth Eckford, one of the "Little Rock Nine." She was 15 at the time.

Instead, Guardsmen turned Eckford toward dozens of rabid hecklers.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/
<img src="http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/central/images/central1.jpg"><br>
Instead, Guardsmen turned Eckford toward dozens of rabid hecklers. Among them was Hazel Bryan Massery. "I was behind her and the crowd was jeering saying: 'go home nigger ... go back to Africa' and things like that," Massery recalls.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/
<img src="http://www.queervisions.com/img/cowardlykick.jpg"><br>
.......Nineteen days later, the nine tried again but were driven out by the mob. Still photographer Will Counts, who nearly won a Pulitzer Prize for his shot of black reporter Alex Wilson being kicked, recalls "They were yelling: 'Run, nigger, run.' And he said: 'I fought for my country in the war and I'm not running from you' -- and he didn't."
http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/
<img src="http://www.americaslibrary.gov/assets/aa/eisenhower/aa_eisenhower_littlerock_3_e.jpg"><br>
The Little Rock crisis was the first time the federal government had enforced court-ordered integration. It took 1,200 troops of the 101st Airborne division, sent by President Dwight Eisenhower, to accomplish the task.

Eisenhower's action in the showdown set the stage for school desegregation programs across America.

Ernest Green was among that first handful of black students. "Victory was at hand. I thought I had finally cracked it," he recalls.

It was a victory indeed, and it marked the first time that the federal government used its full power in enforcing the desegregation laws of the land.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/
<img src="http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/civilrights/images/cr0013s.jpg">

Quote:
http://rcarterpittman.org/essays/mis..._Arkansas.html
The Federal Invasion of Arkansas
In the Light of the Constitution

By R. Carter Pittman

S INCE the Federal Government is a parchment created by a written instrument, which we know as the Constitution, all officers of that Government, including the President, must look to that parchment for every power that they exercise, whether in Washington or in Little Rock. That is true, not only of the President, but of the Congress and of the Federal Courts.

The Tenth Amendment states that truism, but that was true before the Tenth Amendment was adopted. It was spelled out merely to settle and satisfy the minds of those who were fearful of the evils that lurked in the shadows of the new and untried government. Thus, the Federal Constitution is the power-of-attorney of those whose offices were created by the Constitution.

The exercise of a power not granted in the Constitution itself is usurpation. The usurpation of power creates no legal authority. Upon the integrity of that principle rests the validity of every right man has ever wrested from power and every liberty he has ever torn from tyrants. The soundness of that proposition is not disputed among men of learning and honor anywhere.

So, we must search the Constitution to see if we can find authority for the actions of President Eisenhower in sending federal troops to Little Rock and in federalizing Arkansas troops. There are only two provisions of the Constitution relating to such a situation.

One, relating to the use of federalized state troops, appears in Article I and the other, relating to the use of federal troops, appears in Article IV of the Constitution. The latter provides that the United States shall protect each state "against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence."

O BVIOUSLY, there has been no invasion or threatened invasion of Arkansas, hence the President had no authority to send federal troops into Arkansas, except upon the application of the Legislature of Arkansas for the purpose of putting down domestic violence. The Legislature of Arkansas did not ask for federal troops and since there is no reason why it could not be convened, the Governor of Arkansas has no authority to call on the President to send federal troops. If the Governor of Arkansas had such authority he has not exercised it. Therefore, the President had no authority to send federal troops into Arkansas under any fair construction of Section 4 of Article IV or of any other provision of the Constitution.

The other provision relating to the use of military force by the President, in Section 8 of Article I, empowers the Congress "to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrection and repel Invasion".

Obviously, there was no insurrection to be suppressed and no invasion to be repelled in Arkansas; therefore, the Congress had no power to authorize the President to call forth, or federalize the state troops or militia of Arkansas, unless it was "to execute the laws of the Union."

Those the least familiar with American History know why the framers of the Constitution were careful to restrict the power of the President to use military force against his own people. ......
<h3>Above is a 1958 "states rights" argument against the decision of a republican president Dwight Eisenhower's decision to use federal troops to enforce the 1954 SCOTUS decsion in "Brown vs. the Board of Education"</h3>

....by 1980, a republican presidential candidate had "progressed from Eisenhower's 1957 executive decisions on civil rights, to this:
Quote:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/polit...gan90_2-6.html
ROGER WILKINS: Well, every once in a while Reagan would just send out these laser beam signals that were crystal clear. His first speech in his campaign in 1980 was in Philadelphia, Mississippi, which nobody outside of Mississippi had ever heard of except for one thing and that was that three civil rights workers were killed there in 1964. Reagan said then I'm for states rights. If you say I'm for states rights in Mississippi, everybody knows what you're talking about. Some years later he went to Atlanta and he said Jefferson Davis is a hero of mine. Everybody knows what you're talking about then, too. He went to Charlotte, North Carolina, where the first federal court ordered the first bussing remedy and he said, I'm against bussing. So....
....more examples in this post:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...4&postcount=22

<b>....and now, from Eisenhower in 1957, it is reported that we've come full circle, toi this:</b>
Quote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/420376.html
.....Roberta Baskin on set: ONE OF THE TOP PRIORITIES OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS TO PROSECUTE VIOLATIONS OF OUR CIVIL RIGHTS. HOWEVER THE TEAM OF PROSECUTORS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS PUT TOGETHER LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE AMERICA IT'S SUPPOSED TO PROTECT.

Story: Some of the most notorious crimes committed in America � police brutality..cross burnings..violence at abortion clinics..modern day slavery - all federal crimes - are prosecuted by The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.

But our investigation has found that the Justice Department is missing a key component in its mission to protect civil rights - DIVERSITY � diversity in the attorney ranks to prosecute cases.

Congressman John Conyers: "They need someone to investigate them."

The I-Team has learned that since 2003...the criminal section within the Civil Rights Division has not hired a single black attorney to replace those who have left. Not one.

(Graphic)

As a result, the current face of civil rights prosecutions looks like this: Out of fifty attorneys in the Criminal Section - only two are black. The same number the criminal section had in 1978 - even though the size of the staff has more than doubled. ......
and this....
Quote:
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...n/17188481.htm
Posted on Sun, May. 06, 2007
email this
print this
U. S. ATTORNEYS
Congress considers broadening Justice Department inquiry
By Greg Gordon and Margaret Talev

....... Sen. Claire McCaskell, D-Mo., told National Public Radio last week that she wants to hear testimony from Schlozman because "more answers under oath need to be given."

One of the former Justice Department employees, Clevenger, is pursuing a whistleblower suit alleging he was wrongly fired for exposing mistreatment of employees by his Special Litigation Section chief.

Clevenger and the other lawyer recounted Schlozman's odd handling of their job applications in the spring of 2005. Clevenger said his resume stated that he was a member of the conservative Federalist Society and the Texas chapter of the Republican National Lawyers Association. The other applicant's resume cited work on President Bush's 2000 campaign, said the attorney, who insisted upon anonymity for fear of retaliation.

They said Schlozman directed them to drop the political references and resubmit the resumes in what they believed were an effort to hide those conservative affiliations.

Clevenger also recalled once passing on to Schlozman the name of a friend from Stanford as a possible hire.

"Schlozman called me up and asked me something to the effect of, `Is he one of us?'" Clevenger said. "He wanted to know what the guy's partisan credentials were."

Schlozman, who recently completed more than a year's service as interim U.S. attorney in Kansas City that was marked with controversy, has drawn harsh criticism over his conduct as the top deputy in the Civil Rights Division starting in 2003 and a term of roughly seven months as its acting chief beginning in the spring of 2005.

Several former department lawyers assailed his treatment of senior employees and his rollback of longstanding policies aimed at protecting African-American voting rights. They blame him for driving veteran attorneys, including section chief Joseph Rich, to resign from their posts.

Rich recently told Congress that 15 of the 35 attorneys in the voting rights section have resigned since 2005. Former employees of the Voting Rights Section told McClatchy of at least eight hires since then of employees with conservative political connections.

The Boston Globe, which obtained resumes of civil rights hires under the Freedom of Information Act, reported Sunday that seven of 14 career lawyers hired under Schlozman were members of either the Federalist Society or the Republican National Lawyers Association.

Rich, who left the agency on April 30, 2005, and now works for the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights, told McClatchy Newspapers that Schlozman was "central to implementation of the politicization of the Civil Rights Division" and said he treated career lawyers with "disdain" and "vindictiveness."

His former deputy, Robert Kengle, told McClatchy that "Schlozman was never wrong and to even raise that possibility was asking for retribution."

Schlozman's hiring favored lawyers "with one primary characteristic - links to the Republican Party and right-wing groups," said David Becker, who left the section the same day as Rich. .......
<b>My point roachboy, is that loquitur is an educated and a reasonable person, and he doesn't see anything amiss....and to boot...he's an attorney. The drift away from a commitment of preservation of civil rights, is just one "canary in the coal mine".....but, it is a "tell", for me, at least. Nothing will change until "reasonable" republicans find things that Bush and his administration, and even things like the "reagan lovefest", last thursday night, objectionable.....and I predict, we've got a long wait until that happens, because their "ballsy" attitude, irregardless of wher it sits, vs. the law, and principle, is perceived to get them votes.....</b>
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:02 PM   #203 (permalink)
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We're getting to the point where some of this material belongs in a different thread. Please try to stay on topic here and direct marginally related material to other conversations.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:55 PM   #204 (permalink)
 
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ok so after a bike ride....

i think host's last post is entirely germaine: the only potential confusion lay in the fact that he may be responding to something i put in dc's thread earlier today as much as to what i may have put up here.

anyone who tries to think about the american situation in systemic terms sooner or later gets driven back into its sorry history. what differs amongst us is what each takes to be the canary in the mineshaft.

from my viewpoint, much of what host outlines above can be linked to the retreat into the historically dangerous and politically bankrupt notion of nation or national community, which drags all the problems of defining the "us" as over against the "them" back into play--in the present context, the "us" is pretty fucking small as a category--if you are poor you are out; if you are muslim you are out; if you operate in any political framework that is not reactionary you are out.....on and on...all this in what amounts to an exercise in (political) auto-therapy for the conservative set. but if that was all that is happening, then the question would be tedious--potentially horrific in its consequences, but conceptually tedious (i know this is a problematic statement, but such is my mood at the moment): it leans on the characteristics of the shared ideological set that all of us who pass through the american educational system have drilled into us, the center of which is the confusion of what is historically created with what is given in nature--so a category like "nation" comes to be presented in the same way as that of
"a rock." since we do not imagine that we make "a rock" (though in a sense we do given that we perceive the putative referent across the organizing features of the category "rock" which are simply those of nouns, enframed by syntacic regularities, individuated ideologically blah blah blah)...both "nation" and "rock" then are given---this is debilitating intellectually because it collapses a political category into a horizon of that-which-is-given-in-advance such that problems attending the meaning and status of nation become problems of the "natural" order of things. this is a condition of possibility for american conservative volk-bildung and the sacrificial rituals that generate its affective power. this is a condition of possibility of the paralysis that i think is a general ideological characteristic of this particular historical moment.

i dont think the implosion of the popular support that the bush people might at one point or another managed somehow to garner has anything to do with a large-scale rethinking of any categories on the order of nation: i think it has almost entirely to do with the simple fact that bushco. fucked up.

while i was riding, i kept thinking that a post parallel to host's above might be in order, something that outlined the contempible history of american military actions launched under false pretenses, from the enormous litany of actions carried out against native americans to the spanish-american war (remember the maine indeed) to vietnam to iraq in order to pose the question--again--of why it is that there is apparently no law that makes it criminal for the american political apparatus to launch a fucking war on false pretenses. hell, you could even put the american civil war onto that list: from a certain viewpoint a war of economic domination that legitimated itself across the call to "free the slaves"--a goal that was made as formal as is imaginable by the shabby and repellent process of "reconstruction"--a period that still---somehow--floats around outside the Glorious History of the Republic just as every other problematic aspect of the history of the united states does from the viewpoint of "civics" ideology fobbed off as accounts of the past in primary and secondary school. you know, the crock of patriotic shit that the right wants to salvage in grand old gingrich stylee and make "objective" via standardized testing. once you make this move, it is hard not to arrive at extraordinarily cynical conclusions: there is no law criminalizing wars launched under false-to-dubious pretenses because "we" appear to like them--they are good for business--and we all know that what is good for capital is good for everyone, why just look at the Glorious History of Capitalism for a demonstration.

and sometimes it seems to me that what makes the states interesting is entirely what happens DESPITE it, what goes on WITHIN AND AGAINST the dominant order in these strange spaces of cultural production that the dominant culture either co-opts or destroys (think real estate in cities)....

but maybe it's like this everywhere all the time: if the dominant political and/or cultural logics were to actually occupy the whole of the terrain, everything would collapse. there is an interesting schema for thinking about capitalist relations of production that isolates a fundamental contradiction within them--the organization of production appears to be total, but in fact it relies on its own incompleteness to function at all--it cannot acknowledge the centrality of opposition to it, but it nonetheless feeds on it. the dominant ideology of capitalism is rooted on the pretense that its extent and control is total, when it is in fact nothing of the kind; transposed onto history, it is predicated on it being taken for a natural phenomenon when it is self-evidently a historical construct and a pretty incoherent one at that.

we allow what happens to us. if we cannot imagine that another socio-political arrangement is possible, then we allow this one to continue. we make the world we live in even as we are quite sure we dont. we embody it, we repeat it, we are it. we are not bound by the past, even though we think we are. when we do nothing, we are making an ethical choice. i think that is the wrong choice. but at the same time, i understand the symbiotic relation between operating in opposition and the system itself---and sometimes it is tempting to do nothing--and sometimes i see that posting stuff here is just a way of structuring doing nothing. maybe it is. maybe it isnt. when this is interesting, it is a space for working issues out on the fly. when it isnt, it continues. sometimes i think the only reason i do this is because from time to time i can derive a bit of a therapeutic effect from dumping sentences someplace. sometimes i think that is entirely a waste of time and energy. and maybe it is. and maybe it isnt.
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Old 05-09-2007, 05:37 AM   #205 (permalink)
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Host, in my line of work that would be an effective jury presentation, complete with pictures on an emotional topic invested with moral truth. Problem is, you're using it to explain or illustrate something that may (I think probably) have little do with it.

You're investing politics and government with an explanatory power for specific things that it doesn't have, and in my view at least <i><b>shouldn't</i></b> have. There are many possible explanations for lots of different phenomena that are going on, and what you are doing is tagging the current government with responsibility for everything going on that you don't like.

Here is an example of why your reasoning on this is flawed. Can you name me three Jewish NASCAR drivers? You probably can't. I know I can't name even one. In fact, I'd bet there are no or almost no Jewish NASCAR drivers at all. I'd also bet that it would be silly to say that it's because of rampant anti-Semitism in NASCAR. Wouldn't you? My point simply being that there are lots of alternative explanations for why certain population pools look a certain way other than discrimination. I have my own theories about why the hiring in the civil rights division looks a certain way, but it's more speculation than anything else. Thing is, your explanation is speculative, too, and I'd submit it's probably counter-factual as well. Consider this: if 90+% of the black community is Democratic, how many of them will want to work in a Republican administration? The absence of dark faces in GOP is self-reinforcing in that way. We can argue about whether it's a good or bad thing for African Americans to be monolithically Democratic (I happen to think it's a bad thing, but I'm not black, so maybe I'm missing something), but it is a fact, and it has consequences. The shunning of people like Condoleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas as "race traitors" can't help these things.

Roachboy, the virtue of America is that it doesn't wallow in the past, tries to learn from its mistakes and moves forward. Societies that wallow in the past tend to be stagnant and violent. I have no desire to be stagnant and violent. Our country benefits tremendously by allowing all its citizens of whatever background to participate in what society has to offer - if we make sure that that is what happens and continues to happen, we'll be fine. It's more relevant to me that we got rid of slavery (and sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives to do it), that we eliminated Jim Crow and continue to enforce civil rights laws. Most human societies had slavery at some time or other and some still do, so it's less telling that we had it than that we eliminated it. Ditto for discrimination against those who are different.

"Imperfect" is not a synonym for "evil."

Finally, be very wary of seeing the entire world from inside yourself or inside your own country. We are not nearly as powerful as we think we are, and not everything that happens is in reaction to our thoughts and actions. That's a tempting form of political narcissism that should be avoided.

One of the websites I like to read is called "<A HREF="http://www.overcomingbias.com/">Overcoming Bias</A>," and it analyzes the habits of mind people have that lead them astray in their reasoning. I'm always afraid I'm missing something, which is why I enjoy reading that website. Also, the authors are very smart and amusing. I highly recommend it.

Last edited by loquitur; 05-09-2007 at 05:43 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-09-2007, 06:23 AM   #206 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
...I have my own theories about why the hiring in the civil rights division looks a certain way, but it's more speculation than anything else. Thing is, your explanation is speculative, too, and I'd submit it's probably counter-factual as well. Consider this: if 90+% of the black community is Democratic, how many of them will want to work in a Republican administration? The absence of dark faces in GOP is self-reinforcing in that way. We can argue about whether it's a good or bad thing for African Americans to be monolithically Democratic (I happen to think it's a bad thing, but I'm not black, so maybe I'm missing something), but it is a fact, and it has consequences.
loquitor....the Justice Dept is currently investigating whether Monica Goodling, Gonzales fomer counsel and liaison to the White House, used political affiliation in deciding who to hire as entry-level prosecutors in U.S. attorneys' offices. (link)

If she did, it is against the law. (prohibited personnel practices under the civil service act) and the question is whether she did it on her own, or at the direction of Gonzales or the White House.

The House Judiciary Committee has also given her immunity, DOJ wont block it (link) and the committee is likely to call her in to testify, where if she "takes the 5th," she will face contempt charges.

YOu have your reaons to explain the hiring "profile" of civil rights (and other DOJ career attorneys) and Host has his.......in any case, the public has the right to know if this administration, by the action of one individual or through direction of her superiors, has politicized the prosecutorial process beyond the law.
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Old 05-09-2007, 06:29 AM   #207 (permalink)
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If she's a loyal Bushie who was granted immunity, what's to stop her from falling on the sword and claiming that she was advancing her own interests? Sort of the opposite strategy of Libby....
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Old 05-09-2007, 06:33 AM   #208 (permalink)
 
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uber...there is no guarantee, other than the hope that she will be guided by her conscience and her respect for the law over politics.
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Old 05-09-2007, 07:08 AM   #209 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
loquitor....the Justice Dept is currently investigating whether Monica Goodling, Gonzales fomer counsel and liaison to the White House, used political affiliation in deciding who to hire as entry-level prosecutors in U.S. attorneys' offices. (link)

If she did, it is against the law. (prohibited personnel practices under the civil service act) and the question is whether she did it on her own, or at the direction of Gonzales or the White House.

The House Judiciary Committee has also given her immunity, DOJ wont block it (link) and the committee is likely to call her in to testify, where if she "takes the 5th," she will face contempt charges.

YOu have your reaons to explain the hiring "profile" of civil rights (and other DOJ career attorneys) and Host has his.......in any case, the public has the right to know if this administration, by the action of one individual or through direction of her superiors, has politicized the prosecutorial process beyond the law.

I agree, and personally, I find these sorts of questions about the possible infiltration of institutions charged with protecting our identification as a progressive society much more critical than questions about why we went to Iraq.
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Old 05-09-2007, 07:27 AM   #210 (permalink)
 
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loquitor: i was in a curious mood yesterday and posted a couple things that went way past what i would normally put here. so i suspect that i was not clear (except to myself)---the argument you respond to is different from what you take it to be: i was trying to make a meta-history argument--talking about the status imputed to historical creations in primary and secondary school (for example)---as a way of describing something of the contemporary state of total ideological paralysis--which i think follows to a significant extent from the *relation to* history (as a natural phenomenon not as a social creation)--but i also tangled that up with a much more limited point concerning the question of how and why it is that launching a war on false pretenses is not exactly a criminal action--which invoked a different relation to the same topic. so the post was confusing.

that said, i really do not understand no. 205 from the word "finally" to the end. i cant tell who you are directing it at nor do i understand the point that you are trying to make with it. please explain.

in my more paranoid moments, i wonder if the bush people's attempts to stack the doj with far right partisan hacks is linked to some fantasy coup d'etat scenario---the lynchpin of this is the role played in retro-legal philosophy by carl schmitt, particularly his critique of democratic process as an endless blah blah blah that cannot respond to a state of emergency--only a "decider" can do that.
schmitt is a theorist of dictatorship.
the alarming correlates: the administration seems incapable of distinguishing between political difficulties it experiences itself and notions of collective will--it takes itself as an embodiment of collective will.
from a particular angle, you can see the gridlock in congress, set up by the bizarre results of the last elections, as a kind of ongoing demonstration of this blah blah blah insofar as the composition of both branches effectively makes paralysis inevitable.
fortunately, the administrations structural incompetence has won out once again and this whole business is now exposed...but its meanings are kinda strange, difficult to sort out in a way.
that's why i relegate this whole line of thinking to my more paranoid moments.
but the attempt to stack the doj is more than passing strange, isnt it?
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Old 05-09-2007, 12:22 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Well, I'm no expert on civil service hiring rules. If there was a violation of nonpolitical hiring requirements, then by all means it should be investigated and remedied. That doesn't mean it isn't true that not every hiring disparity is due to discrimination. And what I think host was getting at, that the DOJ is deliberately discriminating against blacks in making hiring decisions, is disproved by roachboy's statement that Goodling was looking to seed the place with Republicans. There just aren't that many black Republican lawyers looking for career government jobs. It stinks either way but it isnt race discrimination.

RB, the purpose of my "finally" statement was to try to shake everyone and remind them that it's possible to get too deeply invested in a viewpoint and forget to step back to examine premises. People are of course limited to their own views by the fact that they are who they are, which means that there is built-in distortion from the get-go; everyone has biases in the lens through which they view the world. That's why it's important to stop every now and again and ask "what am I missing?" Remember, there are lots of good people who think differently, and they're not all stupid, evil or delusional - so it's important to ask what it is that they see that I don't, or what is it that I see that they don't? Otherwise you're just setting up an echo chamber for yourself and not forcing yourself to think beyond preconceived patterns. [That's a general "you," not a "you" addressed specifically to Roachboy]. And really, check out that website. It's a good one, and it really makes me think on all sorts of subjects.

Oh, one other thing. I went back through some of this thread and I see people saying something or another is illegal or unconstitutional. I have tried to avoid that because I know enough law and constitutional law (after having gone through law school, a federal court clerkship and 20+ years of law practice) to be very keenly aware of what I do and don't know. I try to be generally familiar with the issues, but I also know there are arguments on both sides that get made by some very talented and experienced lawyers. Most of these issues are not cut and dry by any means, and we do ourselves a disservice by pretending they are. A couple of things to remember: not everything that is a bad idea is unconstitutional. Not everything we don't like is unconstitutional. There are lots of stupid, useless, even injurious things that are perfectly ok under the constitution - legislators are not prohibited by the constitution from doing bad, stupid things. The remedy for most bad or stupid things is to lobby the legislature or, failing that, vote the bums out of office. That's what happened in the 2006 elections, right? Wanting something to be illegal or unconstitutional doesn't mean that it in fact is illegal or unconstitutional.

Last edited by loquitur; 05-09-2007 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
loquitur is offline  
Old 05-11-2007, 10:22 PM   #212 (permalink)
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
......Wanting something to be illegal or unconstitutional doesn't mean that it in fact is illegal or unconstitutional.
I'll gladly continue to attempt to "balance" "thinking" like the following descriptions, loquitur. If you are telling us that we are over reacting, I'll respond by asking you to consider whether you are, and have been, doing the opposite.

I see little to no risk in demanding, at every instance, that the president fully disclose his decisions, and provide clear justification, most especially in cases of offensive military action.

If the president responds in an open and cooperative manner, the worst that can happen is that we annoy him, but disclosure from and accountability of the president and all other elected officials is our duty to demand, and our right to know.

The electorate just took away majority control from congressional leaders who did not understand that.

The attitude of the military mandated by the executive branch and it's partisan politicking, were catalysts for the attitude of the Lieutenant who was interviewed in this article, and of his former commanding general.

What the fuck were the officers who commanded these soldiers thinking? Where did they come by such prejudice against the US press, and why does the Lieutenant think that it is his business how the press reports on the president of the US?

It seems, at least in this account that the military involved in these war crimes was hostile, brutal, and dismissive of the Iraqi people whose protection and civil progress are at the heart of these troop's mission....

Is there more of a danger in suspecting that the military is ineffective in that it triggers the hostility and violence that it has been unable to reign in, and that, in an effort to please the president that has used it's service and dedication to duty as a political PR prop, over and over since the May, 2003 "Mission Accomplished" "presentation on the deck of the US carrier Abraham Lincoln, the military has become almost as politicized and partisan as it's CIC, himself is.....OR IN NOT SUSPECTING IT?

Why does the Lieutenant and other officers presume that the press "asking questions", is an attack on the military or that the press would not ask pertinent and relevant questions that address concerns voiced to it by the Iraqi people?

Is there only room to either kiss Mr. Bush's ass, and assume that Bush, his appointees, elected republicans in congress, and the US soldiers that Bush and his generals command, are not to be questioned or held accountable, or to over react by predictably consistently holding all of them to account, right down the chain of command and responsibility?

If that happened, and all of them assumed at all times that it would happen, would the 19 Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha probably be still alive now, the indicted soldiers not in custody and on trial, and would the US have even invaded and occupied Iraq?

Give me over reaction and accountability, and the assumption that the press reporting from Iraq does not risk it's life to get and cover "the story", with the intent of embarassing the president, and that US officers are smart enough to drum into the rank and file soldiers that the last thing they should be doing is creating new vendettas against themselves from Iraqi civilians.
Quote:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...11haditha.html
Questions over lack of Haditha inquiry

General says he believed Marines

By Rick Rogers
STAFF WRITER

May 11, 2007

CAMP PENDLETON – One theme permeated the third day of a court hearing at Camp Pendleton for the Haditha case, which involves Marines who killed 24 Iraqi civilians: <b>How could so many generals and other senior officers know about the deaths yet not launch an investigation? ....</b>

......Yesterday, the top general overseeing U.S. military operations in Haditha and much of western Iraq at the time testified he found no reason to doubt the story.

“I had no information that a law-of-armed-conflict violation had been committed,” said Maj. Gen. Richard A. Huck, who testified via video conferencing from his current Pentagon job in Washington, D.C.

Huck, a two-star general, spoke at a pretrial hearing for Capt. Randy W. Stone, one of four officers accused of failing to investigate the killings.

Three enlisted Marines are charged with murder and other violations in the case. They allegedly became enraged after a roadside bomb killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas and injured other Marines. Prosecutors accuse the three enlisted servicemen of fatally shooting five men who approached the scene in a car shortly after the explosion, then killing 19 people in several nearby homes with an assortment of weapons.

Some of the defendants have said they shot at the Iraqis in the vehicle after they began running away. They also maintain that gunfire was coming from the homes, signaling the presence of insurgents.

Stone's civilian attorney, Charles Gittins, has called on Huck and other commanders to testify. He aims to prove that his client is not guilty of dereliction of duty because Marines throughout the command chain agreed that the Haditha killings were lawful.

Huck, who is not a Haditha defendant, described a military system in which each level of authority largely relied on the one below it to initiate a probe. He also wondered why numerous Iraqi groups in Haditha didn't raise any concerns with him about the alleged massacre.

It took a March article in Time magazine to spur an investigation, which has resulted in the biggest allegation of military atrocities of the Iraq war, which began in 2003.

Huck said he never heard questions about possible war crimes in Haditha until Feb. 12, 2006. His boss, Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, sent him an e-mail that day saying Huck must have known that a Time reporter had asked some questions challenging the official military account.

Huck then discovered that his chief of staff and others in his command had known about the reporter's inquiry since mid-January.

<b>Despite being “highly irritated” to learn that he wasn't kept in the loop on these developments, Huck responded to Chiarelli by writing: “I support our account and do not see the necessity for further investigation.”

Chiarelli called for a probe Feb. 13, 2006.</b>

Yesterday, <h3>1st Lt. Adam P. Mathes provided insight into the thinking of the battalion that included the seven Haditha defendants. He testified via a grainy video hookup from an undisclosed location in the Middle East.

Mathes, who was not present during the Haditha killings, said he viewed the Time reporter's questions as an attempt to blemish President Bush and the Marine Corps.

“It was sensationalistic and based on information that was factually inaccurate. It sounded like a really bad, negative spin,” Mathes testified. “This guy is looking for blood because blood leads headlines.”</h3>

Asked if the reporter's questions gave anyone pause that maybe something criminal had happened in Haditha, Mathes replied: “To do an investigation after being prompted by the press would be some kind of admission of guilt.”

Under cross-examination by a prosecutor, Mathes said the reporter's queries centered on the shootings and that neither the Bush administration nor it policies were mentioned.

He also acknowledged that during a town council meeting in Haditha, some Iraqis accused the Marines of murdering three families Nov. 19, 2005. Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani and Capt. Lucas M. McConnell attended the meeting, Mathes recalled.

Afterward, Mathes said, McConnell described the allegations as not “a very big deal – it was nothing, a rumor.”

Stone's court proceeding, known as an Article 32 hearing, is expected to last through Saturday. The investigating officer presiding over it will then review the evidence presented and recommend whether Stone should proceed to trial.
Were at the point we are, loquitur, not because of a tendency of critics of Bush and his republican government to over react, but because of a reflexive and obsessive penchant on the part of Bush and his government to avoid and prevent almost all accountability.

Proper decisions and actions performed in good faith build confidence and reputations. Since Gore v. Bush in 2000, and in that election and vote recount, continuing until these Haditha war crimes trials, there had been only the consistent effort to avoid disclosure to the press and to the people, to an obsessive degree that includes avoiding holding fellow republicans or troops accountable, because it has the potential to reveal "too much" to the "other side".....the "other side" being anyone who "over reacts' by asking questions, including the press, who formerly asked question as part of their job description, but now are shut out unless the "earn" access by reporting the carefully selected and distributed talking points....and only those....that earn them the access.

Otherwise, just as you consider me to be, to a degree that you haven't fully recognized, an independent working press, asking questions and indepently reporting the answers, is..... "out for blood".

The "control", (an example is the Bush initiated elongation of the length of time that papers of former presidents must be kept from public access) and the "us v. them" attitude, the avoidance of accountability, and the institutionalization of oppostion voter intimidation/nullification, starting with the president's own brother and his state's secretary of state, Catherine Harris's seven figure contract for a felon voter purge list, the rewards doled out by this president to the most partisan pitbulls (examples: John Bolton & Josh Bolton....) who descended on Florida after the 2000 vote to disrupt the recount, the revelation that the president's brother, in FLA again in 2004, attempted to keep his new felon voter purge list away from the eyes of the press, and the list's nullification after a judge ordered Florida's government to share the list and it's lack of Hispanic names,
the politcization of and PR exploitation of the military by the president, continuing to revelations of the dismantling of civil rights enforecment at the DOJ, and it's redirection into a prosecutorial division of the republican party,
impress me that this is truly an executive branch that casts a pall over the country that is indeed, worse than Watergate, complete with:


....and, isn't it worse now than Nixon using the IRS to harass his critics and perceived politcal enemies?
Quote:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003107.php
Controversial USA Delivered "Voter Fraud" Indictments Right on Time
By Paul Kiel - May 1, 2007, 12:15 PM

The Justice Department has a longstanding policy regarding the prosecution of election law or voter fraud cases: the closer to the election it gets, the more cautious prosecutors should be about bringing indictments. The reason is simple. Bringing an indictment close to the election can intimidate minority voters, affect voter turnout and potentially even influence the result of the election.

But Bradley Schlozman -- the former U.S. Attorney for Kansas City and controversial deputy head at the Civil Rights Division -- broke with the policy. Not only that, but there's evidence that he rushed four indictments to land just before last November's election.

Indeed, timing aside, even Schlozman's decision to pursue the cases at all is questionable in light of established Justice Department practice. Although trumpeted as cases of voter fraud, the cases alleged only registration fraud, and there's no evidence that those registrations were intended to result in actual fraudulent votes. For that reason, other U.S. attorneys have passed on pursuing similar prosecutions. But Schlozman, who'd worked to push voter I.D. laws while in the Civil Rights Division, leapt at the opportunity.

The more you learn about Schlozman's decision to indict four voter registration recruiters for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) five days before last year's election -- Missouri's Jim Talent was battling Claire McCaskill in one of the closest Senate races in the country --, the worse it looks.

News coverage of the indictments tended to buttress the notion that liberal groups like ACORN were conspiring to steal the election. The indictments were covered by Fox News (where a Kansas City election official was quoted as saying that it was "the worst case of registration abuse in the last quarter century"), as well as the AP, CNN, and other nationwide outlets. Schlozman announced in a statement that "This national investigation is very much ongoing."

It had been the longstanding practice of the Justice Department not to bring such indictments so close before an election. That's according to Joe Rich, the former head of the Justice Department's Civil Rights Section, and a Justice Department manual written by Craig Donsanto, head of the Election Crimes Branch at Justice, which advised that “Federal prosecutors and investigators should be extremely careful to not conduct overt investigations during the pre-election period or while the election is underway.”

Even Alberto Gonzales himself said just two weeks ago that "We have guidance about that, doing those kind of investigations near an election," to be "sensitive about the effect it has on particularly minority participation."

But if Schozman was trying to be sensitive, he didn't show it. In addition to issuing the statement that the "national investigation" into ACORN's registration of mostly poor, minority voters was "very much ongoing," Schlozman also announced the next day that his office would be monitoring the election for fraud. An assistant U.S. attorney would be on duty all day to "ensure public confidence in the integrity of the electoral process."

And there is evidence that the indictments were rushed to come down before Election Day.
It was okay though...Schlozman's "timing"....on the eve of the election:
Quote:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...ngs/?page=full

.....The department said Schlozman's office got permission from headquarters for the election-eve indictments. It added that the department interprets the policy as having <h3>an unwritten exception</h3> for voter registration fraud, because investigators need not interview voters for such cases.......
....an "UNWRITTEN EXCEPTION"....wellllll all-fucking-righty....why din't ya say so????

I wonder if this republican congressman, until recently chairman of the house judiciary committee, also had in his pocket, an "UNWRITTEN EXCEPTION" to the rule that a congressman does not publicly demand an ASAP indictment and prosecution of someone under criminal investigation by the DOJ, a demand for an indictment of someone who is a member of congress from the rival political party.....from the fucking Attorney General, while he is being questioned under oath about other partisan motivated actions and aggressions emanating from the DOJ that he allegedly is the head of?
Quote:
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...007-05-10.html
Sensenbrenner grills Gonzales on Jefferson probe
By Susan Crabtree
May 10, 2007

.....“My constituents are asking me when something is going to happen, whether an indictment is going to be returned or whether the Justice Department is going to make an announcement that there’s insufficient evidence to prosecute Representative Jefferson,” Sensenbrenner said. “When can the public expect some news one way or the other on this issue?”

Gonzales responded that Sensenbrenner knew that he could not talk about ongoing investigations.

“Well, everybody’s talking about it except you,” Sensenbrenner retorted. “I’m just interested in finding out when this matter is going to be brought to conclusion, because we authorize and appropriate a heck of a lot of money to run your department and people are wondering what the dickens is going on.”

Gonzales then said he “had every confidence” that the prosecutors in the case will follow the evidence and take action at the appropriate time.

Not satisfied, Sensenbrenner tried a different tack. He asked whether Gonzales believed the raid on Jefferson’s office and the legal dispute over the separation of powers that it sparked had slowed a decision on whether to indict Jefferson.

Gonzales said only that he couldn’t comment but would do so at the appropriate time.

“Well, I would hope that the appropriate time would be pretty soon,” Sensenbrenner said, “because the people’s confidence in your department has been further eroded, separate and apart from the U.S. attorney controversy, because of the delay in dealing with this matter.”......
....and we haven't even gotten to the part about the <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/19/carol-lam-white-house/">VP's office</a> refusing to disclose how it came to be the issuer of the first government contract to Mitchell Wade. one of two bribers indicted for payoffs to convicted congressman Randy Cunningham (R-CA), or what the contract to Wade was for. Wade's fellow briber was Brett Wilkes, <a href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20070511-1559-ca-congressman-bribery.html">indicted for the 2nd time, yesterday</a>, along with his best friend and former #3 at CIA, Kyle Foggo,
Quote:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003091.php
.....All this raises a question. The bosses at main Justice seem to have been similarly reluctant to proceed with regard to the Duke Cunningham probe. As TPM reported a couple of weeks ago, U.S. Attorney for San Diego Carol Lam had to wait sometimes for months for clearance on certain moves in her investigation. So is there a pattern here?....
...or how this all fits with the Wilkes, Foggo, Cunningham, crimes that now have spurred an investigation of the chairman of the defense appropriations committee that Cunningham "served" on:
Quote:
http://tpmmuckraker.com/buckham.php
Ed Buckham

Ed Buckham ran Alexander Strategy Group, a lobby shop known for its access to Tom DeLay. He also worked closely with Jack Abramoff.

Buckham was named in Tony Rudy's March 31, 2006 guilty plea as "Lobbyist B." The plea also names Buckham as having benefitted from Rudy's effort to round up aides for a trip to the Northern Mariana Islands.

Ed Buckham started working for DeLay in 1995 after staff positions with several other Republicans and a run as executive director of the Republican Study Committee. He served as both a pastor and chief of staff for the congressman.

Buckham organized the US Family Network, an astroturf organization that served as a conduit for cash to various DeLay projects, in 1996. He also founded the Alexander Strategy Group (ASG), a lobbying firm that was one of the flagship operations of DeLay's K Street project and a key gatekeeper to DeLay's influence until it closed its doors in January 2006.

See Buckham's Grand Ole Docket entry for ongoing court dates.

Key points:

Buckham's ASG channeled money from Abramoff clients to DeLay through the U.S. Family Network.

A CNMI textile company, the Choctaw Indians and the Russian oil interests each donated large sums of money to the USFN, allegedly in exchange for support from Tom DeLay. USFN paid ASG hundreds of thousands of dollars, and ASG paid Christine DeLay $3,200/month, though she did not work in their offices on Capitol Hill.

Buckham arranged DeLay's first trip to the Mississippi Choctaws.

Buckham, along with Tony Rudy, was the first DeLay staffer to visit with the Choctaws, an Abramoff client. The trip, taken in 1997, lasted 3 days and cost the Choctaw $3,000. The following year, Buckham arranged a trip for DeLay to the Choctaw Casino and golf resort. The day after DeLay left the resort, the Choctaws made an initial $150,000 payment to the USFN. The Choctaws were Abramoff clients.

DeLay's Scotland trip was partially billed to Buckham.

When DeLay traveled to Scotland to play at an exclusive golf resort in 2000, parts of the trip were billed to Buckham's credit card, a violation of House ethics rules since Buckham was, by that time, a registered lobbyist. Other parts of the trip were charged to Abramoff's credit card.

<b>Buckham represented Brent Wilkes' Group W Advisors.</b>

<h3>Group W Advisors, a lobby shop operated by Brent Wilkes, who has been implicated in the Cunningham bribery investigation, hired ASG in 2002 to lobby DeLay on defense contracts. ASG has earned $620,000 on the contracts to date. Buckham represented Group W for ASG along with Rudy and several other ASG lobbyists.</h3>

Buckham's concorde flight caught the press's attention.

On the Buckam-DeLay trip to Russia in 1997, which was financed by Russian oil interests, Buckam took a $5,000 flight home on the Concorde. Questioned by the press, he claimed the ticket was financed by the NCPPR.
Quote:
http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_3906155
Yucca Valley tied to Lewis Inquiry
Guy McCarthy and Andrew Silva, Staff Writers
Article Launched: 06/06/2006 06:48:00 PM PDT

The High Desert town of Yucca Valley has been subpoenaed for records pertaining to the federal criminal investigation of ties between Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Redlands, and lobbying giant Copeland Lowery Jacquez Denton & White......

...... Documents released Tuesday by Yucca Valley include a federal subpoena from U.S. Attorney prosecutors in Los Angeles and correspondence from Copeland Lowery lobbyists and former Lewis staffers Jeff Shockey of Redlands and Letitia H. White.

Shockey, who returned to work for Lewis last year, earned $1.5 million over six years with Copeland Lowery and received a $600,000 severance package. Since Shockey was a part-owner of the firm, the $600,000 was a divestiture required by law.

White worked nearly 20 years for Lewis before leaving to work for Copeland Lowery in 2003. She earned lobbying fees of $850,000 that year and $3.5 million last year, <h3>earning her the title ``K Street's queen of earmarks,'' The New York Times reported Saturday.</h3>

Lewis has passionately defended the practice of earmarking hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funds for local projects. But the practice is at least one reason for federal investigators' scrutiny. Some observers, including congressional watchdog groups in Washington, question whether Lewis and other lawmakers have traded earmarks for illegal payments from contractors and lobbyists.

Cunningham was sentenced to eight years in prison after he pleaded guilty to accepting $2.4 million in bribes. He resigned in disgrace in December.

Yucca Valley has had an agreement with Copeland Lowery since January 2003 on a retainer of $3,000 per month plus expenses.

That was increased in August 2005 to $3,500.

The firm lobbies not only Lewis, but also California's two U.S. senators and others who may have a role in issues of concern, Town Manager Andy Takata said.

Money for improvements to Highway 62 has been obtained and the firm has helped arrange important meetings with federal officials to help solve problems, he said.

``We felt they have done a good job for us,'' Takata said. ``Jerry Lewis has been a very good Congressman for us all these years.''

That was true long before the town hired Copeland Lowery, he said.
Quote:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000838.php

Lewis' Daughter Runs Defense PAC Tied to Lobbyist
By Justin Rood - June 7, 2006, 12:01 PM

A powerful House Republican's ties to a lobby firm under investigation just became a family affair.

Here's what we knew as of this morning: House Appropriations Chairman Jerry Lewis (R-CA) is under investigation, along with at least two of his former staffers. Just after leaving Lewis' employ, staffer Letitia White bought a house with one of the defense contractors who wanted funds earmarked from Lewis' committee. Later we learned that house was the headquarters for a Political Action Committee, chaired by that same defense contractor.

Now we can report that the PAC is operated by Lewis' stepdaughter, Julie Willis-Leon.

The group, the Small Biz Tech PAC, takes money from defense firms with business before Lewis' committee. A number of them are clients of the Copeland Lowery lobbying firm, which employs Letitia White. (Both Copeland Lowery and White are under investigation in the Lewis matter.)

At least two of the PAC's contributors -- ICUITI Corp. and Advatech Pacific -- have received earmarks from Lewis' panel, according to records kept by the watchdog group Taxpayers for Common Sense. (Neither company has returned our calls.)

I spoke with Julia Willis-Leon this morning and asked her if she thought her PAC got any special treatment because her stepfather was chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. "Absolutely not," she told me. "You might note that the PAC has never contributed to him," she added.

Lewis' office has not yet returned my call for comment. I should note that Lewis isn't Julia's only relative on the Hill; her mother, Arlene Willis, is Lewis' staff director. And Jerry Lewis' wife.
Quote:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...1n12lewis.html
Lewis subject of 'earmarks' investigation, source says

By Jerry Kammer and Dean Calbreath
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE / STAFF WRITER

May 12, 2006

.....“Lewis and Duke worked together, exerting a lot of control. It was pretty frightening,” said a San Diego military contractor who dealt with both Lewis and Cunningham.

The contractor spoke on the condition of anonymity because he didn't want to jeopardize his professional relationships in Washington, D.C.

In the months after Cunningham pleaded guilty, Lewis resisted an independent investigation of Cunningham's activities on the Appropriations Committee. He said he did an informal review of Cunningham's earmarks over several years and was satisfied that they were all legitimate.

Lewis said in his written statement yesterday that he would “welcome a thorough review of these projects.”

His office did not respond to requests that it release the results of his informal review. Copley News Service requested a list of the earmarks, the companies that benefited from them and the amount of money involved.

A former director of the committee's Democratic staff called on Lewis to be more forthcoming about Cunningham's actions.

“I think he has an obligation to explain what happened here because his committee . . . was used for corrupt purposes,” said Scott Lilly, who left the committee in 2004.

According to government and defense industry sources, Lewis and Cunningham worked together to help Poway military contractor Brent Wilkes as he pursued contracts on Capitol Hill. Cunningham admitted taking bribes from Wilkes, who has been identified as co-conspirator No. 1 in Cunningham's plea agreement.

On April 15, 1999, three months after Lewis was named chairman of the House defense appropriations subcommittee, he received $17,000 in campaign contributions from Wilkes and his associates. At the time, Wilkes was vying for a project to digitize military documents in the Panama Canal Zone, which the United States was about to return to Panama.

“If you can't go to people on Capitol Hill, it's very difficult to remain viable as a government contractor,” said one of Wilkes' associates who contributed money to Lewis at the time. “You have to talk to people. And to talk to people, you have to give money.”

But the Panama project hit a snag. The Pentagon did not want to give Wilkes as much money as he requested. .....
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ny_051007.html

......... SANCHEZ: Now, are you aware that when Ms. Yang went to this firm, she received what has been reported as a $1.5 million bonus for joining the private law firm?

GONZALES: I don't know what she received. But whatever it was, it was a bargain for the firm because she is an outstanding lawyer.

SANCHEZ: Are you aware of any reason why she would have been given such an extraordinary bonus payment to hire an individual like her?

GONZALES: I suspect that given her outstanding qualifications, the fact that she's a woman, an Asian-American, would make her particularly attractive to a private firm.

SANCHEZ: So you think a $1.5 million signing bonus is typical for a situation like that?

GONZALES: Again, that's a decision for that firm to make.

SANCHEZ: OK.

Are you aware -- and this has been reported in the press -- that when she was hired by the firm, Ms. Yang was conducting an active investigation into Republican Congressman Jerry Lewis and his financial dealings with a particular lobbying firm? Were you aware of that?

GONZALES: I may have been aware of that. Sitting here today, I can't say that I was aware of that. But that is very likely.

We have public corruption investigations and prosecutions that are occurring every day all over the country, Congresswoman.

GONZALES: So it would not be unusual that such...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Well, let me tell you what concerns me.

What concerns me are the reports of the same firm that hired Ms. Yang away from her post as a U.S. attorney, with a large bonus payment, also, coincidentally, happens to be the firm that represents Mr. Lewis in this matter. Does that coincidence trouble you at all?

GONZALES: Not at all, because, again, what we have to remember is that for -- the American people need to understand this -- is that these investigations are not run primarily by the United States attorneys. They're handled by assistant United States attorneys, career prosecutors. And so these...

SANCHEZ: She had no role in the investigation of Mr. Lewis?

GONZALES: ... these investigations, these prosecutions continue, as they should.

This great institution is built to withstand departures of U.S. attorneys and attorneys general.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: So you don't think it's inappropriate for a U.S. attorney to accept a lucrative job offer from a law firm representing the target of one of their active investigations in a position that she held just prior to going to that law firm? You don't think that that's inappropriate?

GONZALES: Again...

SANCHEZ: You don't think that there's perhaps at least an appearance of a conflict of interest...

.... SANCHEZ: What about this: Are you aware that one month before Ms. Yang resigned her post White House Counsel Harriet Miers had asked Kyle Sampson if Ms. Yang planned to keep her post or, as in Mr. Sampson's words to our investigators, quote/unquote, "whether a vacancy could be created there in Los Angeles"? Were you aware of that?

GONZALES: I think I may be aware of that, based on my review. I can't remember now whether or not that's reflected in the document.

Let me just say this, a couple things about that.

<h3>I recall -- Ms. Yang, when I said she left voluntarily, I think she left involuntarily</h3> in that she -- she had to leave for financial reasons.....
Quote:
http://www.gibsondunn.com/news/firm/...pubItemId=8231
.......October 17, 2006

Los Angeles. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP is pleased to announce Debra Wong Yang, the United States Attorney for the Central District of California in Los Angeles, will join the firm as partner in the Los Angeles office.

At Gibson Dunn, <b>Yang will co-chair the firm’s Crisis Management Practice Group, along with Washington, D.C. partner Theodore B. Olson, the former Solicitor General of the United States, and New York partner Randy Mastro, the former New York Deputy Mayor of Operations. In addition, Yang will play a central role in the Business Crimes and Investigations Practice Group.</b>

“Debra Wong Yang is one of the most respected U.S. Attorneys in the country. She has done a remarkable job in leading the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Los Angeles, which handles some of our Nation’s largest and most difficult cases,” said Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales. “She was selected to serve on the Attorney General’s Advisory Committee, a small group of U.S. Attorneys that I consult on policy matters, and she served in this and other capacities with great distinction. She is an energetic leader and has an amazing ability to build connections with community leaders at all levels.”

“We are thrilled to have Debra join the firm,” said Ken Doran, Managing Partner of Gibson Dunn. “She is an extraordinarily accomplished lawyer. Her national reputation, profile and experience make her perfectly suited to play a leadership role in our firm’s widely acclaimed Crisis Management practice.”.........
loquitur....I didn't make this "stuff" up.....for almost everyone...just the Abramoff/Buckham/Delay/Wilkes/Wade/Cunningham/Lewis associations are mind boggling. IF you add the DOJ/Gonzales/Meiers/Lam/Yang/Ted Olson "dimension" to the investigative and prosecutorial "side" to it....who else but an increasingly amazed and angry "zealot"...with anger and zealotry rising as the details steadily stream in.....could, or would even be bothered to follow it all.

Somebody has to "follow it", though.....loquitur, because.....it should interest you, but it doesn't, and I'm curious about your curiously uninterested reaction, too.....

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Old 05-12-2007, 08:57 AM   #213 (permalink)
 
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meanwhile, in iraq:

Quote:
Billions in Oil Missing in Iraq, U.S. Study Says
By JAMES GLANZ

Between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq?s declared oil production over the past four years is unaccounted for and could have been siphoned off through corruption or smuggling, according to a draft American government report.

Using an average of $50 a barrel, the report said the discrepancy was valued at $5 million to $15 million daily.

The report does not give a final conclusion on what happened to the missing fraction of the roughly two million barrels pumped by Iraq each day, but the findings are sure to reinforce longstanding suspicions that smugglers, insurgents and corrupt officials control significant parts of the country?s oil industry.

The report also covered alternative explanations for the billions of dollars worth of discrepancies, including the possibility that Iraq has been consistently overstating its oil production.

Iraq and the State Department, which reports the numbers, have been under relentless pressure to show tangible progress in Iraq by raising production levels, which have languished well below the United States goal of three million barrels a day. Virtually the entire economy of Iraq is dependent on oil revenues.

The draft report, expected to be released within the next week, was prepared by the United States Government Accountability Office with the help of government energy analysts, and was provided to The New York Times by a separate government office that received a review copy. The accountability office declined to provide a copy or to discuss the draft.

Paul Anderson, a spokesman for the office, said only that ?we don?t discuss draft reports.?

But a State Department official who works on energy issues said that there were several possible explanations for the discrepancy, including the loss of oil through sabotage of pipelines and inaccurate reporting of production in southern Iraq, where engineers may not properly account for water that is pumped along with oil in the fields there.

?It could also be theft,? the official said, with suspicion falling primarily on Shiite militias in the south. ?Crude oil is not as lucrative in the region as refined products, but we?re not ruling that out either.?

Iraqi and American officials have previously said that smuggling of refined products like gasoline and kerosene is probably costing Iraq billions of dollars a year in lost revenues. The smuggling of those products is particularly feared because officials believe that a large fraction of the proceeds go to insurgent groups. Crude oil is much more difficult to smuggle because it must be shipped to refineries and turned into the more valuable refined products before it can be sold on the market.

The Shiite militia groups hold sway around the rich oil fields of southern Iraq, which dominate the country?s oil production, the State Department official said. For that reason, he said, the Shiite militias are more likely to be involved in theft there than the largely Sunni insurgents, who are believed to benefit mostly from smuggling refined products in the north.

In the south, the official said, ?There is not an issue of insurgency, per se, but it could be funding Shia factions, and that could very well be true.?

?That would be a concern if they were using smuggling money to blow up American soldiers or kill Sunnis or do anything that could harm the unity of the country,? the official said.

The report by the accountability office is the most comprehensive look yet at faltering American efforts to rebuild Iraq?s oil and electricity sectors. For the analysis of Iraq?s oil production, the accountability office called upon experts at the Energy Information Administration within the United States Department of Energy, which has long experience in analyzing oil production and exports worldwide.

Erik Kreil, an oil expert at the information administration who is familiar with the analysis, said a review of industry figures around the world ? exports, refinery figures and other measures ? could not account for all the oil that Iraq says it is producing. The administration also took into account how much crude oil was consumed internally, to do things like fuel Iraqi power plants and refine into gasoline and other products.

When all those uses of the oil were taken into consideration, Mr. Kreil said, Iraq?s stated production figures did not add up.

?Either they?re producing less, or they?re producing what they say and the difference is completely unaccounted for in any of the places we think it should go,? Mr. Kreil said. ?Either it?s overly optimistic, or it?s unaccounted for.?

Several analysts outside the government agreed that such a large discrepancy indicated that there was either a major smuggling operation in place or that Iraq was incapable to generate accurate production figures.

?That?s a staggering amount of oil to lose every month,? said Philip K. Verleger Jr., an independent economist and oil expert. ?But given everything else that?s been written about Iraq, it?s not a surprise.?

Mr. Verleger added that if the oil was being smuggled out of Iraq, there would be a ready market for it, particularly in smaller refineries not controlled by large Western companies in places like China, the Caribbean and even small European countries.

The report also contains the most comprehensive assessment yet of the billions of dollars the United States and Iraq spent on rebuilding the oil and electricity infrastructure, which is falling further and further behind its performance goals.

Adding together both civilian and military financing, the report concludes that the United States has spent $5.1 billion of the $7.4 billion in American taxpayer money set aside to rebuild the Iraqi electricity and oil sectors. The United States has also spent $3.8 billion of Iraqi money on those sectors, the report says.

Despite those enormous expenditures, the performance is far short of official goals, and in some cases seems to be declining further. The average output of Iraq?s national electricity grid in 2006, for example, was 4,300 megawatts, about equal to its value before the 2003 invasion. By February of this year, the figure had fallen still further, to 3,800 megawatts, the report says.

All of those figures are far short of the longstanding American goal for Iraq: 6,000 megawatts. Even more dispiriting for Iraqis, by February the grid provided power for an average of only 5.1 hours a day in Baghdad and 8.6 hours nationwide. Both of those figures are also down from last year.

The story is similar for the oil sector, where ? even if the Iraqi numbers are correct ? neither exports nor production have met American goals and have also declined since last year, the report says.

American reconstruction officials have continued to promote what they describe as successes in the rebuilding program, while saying that problems with security have prevented the program from achieving all of its goals. But federal oversight officials have frequently reported that the program has also suffered from inadequate oversight, poor contracting practices, graft, ineffective management and disastrous initial planning.

The discrepancies in the Iraqi oil figures are broadly reminiscent of the ones that turned up when some of the same energy department experts examined Iraq?s oil infrastructure in the wake of the oil-for-food scandals of the Saddam Hussein era. In a United Nations-sponsored program that was supposed to trade Iraq?s oil for food, Mr. Hussein and other smugglers were handsomely profiting from the program, investigations determined.

In reports to Congress before the 2003 invasion that ousted Mr. Hussein, the accountability office, using techniques similar to those called into play in its most recent report, determined that in early 2002, for example, 325,000 to 480,000 barrels of crude oil a day were being smuggled out of Iraq, the majority through a pipeline to Syria.

But substantial amounts also left Iraq through Jordan and Turkey, and by ship in the Persian Gulf, routes that could also be available today, said Robert Ebel, a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

?Any number of adjacent countries would be glad to have it if they could make some money,? Mr. Ebel said.

Mr. Ebel said the lack of modern metering equipment, or measuring devices, at Iraq?s wellheads made it especially difficult to track smuggling there. The State Department official agreed that there were no meters at the wellheads, but said that Iraq?s Oil Ministry had signed a contract with Shell Oil to study the possibility of putting in the meters.

The official added that an American-financed project to install meters on Iraq?s main oil platform in the Persian Gulf was scheduled to be completed this month.

As sizable as a discrepancy of as much as 300,000 barrels a day would be in most parts of the world, some analysts said it could be expected in a country with such a long, ingrained history of corruption.

?It would be surprising if it was not the case,? said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, which closely follows security and economic issues in Iraq. He added, ?How could the oil sector be the exception??
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/wo...hp&oref=slogin

um...first of all, i find myself fascinated by how one smuggles oil. this probably follows from basically goofy images that come to mind via the verb "to smuggle"--guys in trenchcoats mostly, the prototype being harry lime from "the third man".

second--this information makes it pretty obvious that there is no need for iranian involvement in iraq to explain anything about what we quaintly call "the insurgency"--you know, the various military/para-military organizations that are using the american occupation as a focal point. so what the fuck was cheney doing on the aircraft carrier the other day threatening iran?
bluster, methinks.

mostly i post this as a followup to the guardian article yesterday, another element in the mosaic of chaos that for some reason is not part of the consideration about strategy vis-a-vis iraq, that is not part of the conversation vis-a-vis what it is that this administration should be held to account for, that is not an aspect of collective thinking when the question of this administration's incompetence arises....an index of what it is that we implicitly assent to when the range of alternatives in public debate about either the bush administration or the debacle in iraq is delimited by the stalemate composition of congress.
this is what we assent to.
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:11 PM   #214 (permalink)
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roachboy, here's the governor of my state, a kool-ade drinker, to be sure.....
Quote:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/sha...itical_insider
Perdue on Iraq: Solve the problem yourself, or ‘keep your mouth shut’

Friday, May 11, 2007, 08:51 AM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Gov. Sonny Perdue just finished up his talk-radio session with former U.S. secretary of education Bill Bennett on WGKA (920AM), held at the state Capitol.

On his “Morning in America” show, Bennett mentioned that Perdue has been talked about as vice-presidential fodder in ‘08, and asked if the governor agreed with other Republicans who think it might be time to put some air between themselves and President Bush — specifically on the topic of Iraq.

Perdue said he did not. In fact, in Spiro Agnew-like fashion, the governor encouraged nattering nabobs of negatism to put a lid on the loose talk.

Perdue acknowledged that the going in Iraq has been tough. But, he said, “until you’ve got a better idea, keep your mouth shut.”

<h2>“This president did not choose war.</h2> He chose to protect the United States of America, and I’m thankful that he did,” Perdue said.
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/ma...e162076ei=5090

....In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and <h2>when we act, we create our own reality.</h2> And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' .....
<b>....I'm still </b> left, "just studying what they've done"...and I'm not impressed....

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Old 05-13-2007, 08:02 AM   #215 (permalink)
 
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the path becomes clear when the next step is taken:

Quote:
'More troops' call as Iraq murders soar


234 bodies dumped in Baghdad in only 11 days

Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday May 13, 2007
The Observer


The US military surge in Iraq, designed to turn around the course of the war, appears to be failing as senior US officers admit they need yet more troops and new figures show a sharp increase in the victims of death squads in Baghdad.

In the first 11 days of this month, there have already been 234 bodies - men murdered by death squads - dumped around the capital, a dramatic rise from the 137 found in the same period of April. Improving security in Baghdad and reducing death-squad activity was described as one of the key aims of the US surge of 25,000 additional troops, the final units of whom are due to arrive next month.

In a further setback, the US military announced yesterday the loss of an entire patrol south of Baghdad, with five soldiers dead and three others missing, after they were ambushed by insurgents in the town of Mahmoudiya.

The new figures emerged as the commander of US forces in northern Iraq, Major General Benjamin Mixon, admitted he did not have enough soldiers to contain the escalating violence in Diyala province, which neighbours Baghdad and has become the focus of the heaviest fighting between largely Sunni insurgent groups and the US army, which has seen casualties increase by 300 per cent. Sixty-one US soldiers have been killed in Diyala this year, compared with 20 in all of last year.

Mixon, interviewed by The Observer earlier this year, has not made a secret of his frustration at the declining situation in Diyala and has already reinforced the area around Baqouba - the centre of the heaviest fighting - with additional troops.

Ironically, the violence in Diyala has been exacerbated by an influx of both Shia and Sunni fighters displaced from Baghdad by the surge and also from Anbar province who have relocated to Diyala to join a series of jihadi and nationalist groups already based there.

Mixon, who was speaking in Tikrit, said: 'I'm going to need additional forces, to get that situation to a more acceptable level, so the Iraqi security forces will be able in the future to handle that.' He was also highly critical of Iraqi government in Baghdad, charging that it was riddled with corruption.

Mixon's request coincided with yet more bad news from Iraq - a draft US government report claiming that between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq's declared oil production may have been siphoned off through corruption in the past four years.

Iraqi and American officials have long contended that oil smuggling from fields controlled by Shia militias in the south is costing Iraq billions of dollars - funds that, it is feared, are going to armed groups.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world...078422,00.html
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Old 05-13-2007, 09:51 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
the path becomes clear when the next step is taken:



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world...078422,00.html
Five copies of Cheney's daughter's book <b>
Now It's My Turn: A Daughter's Chronicle of Political Life</b>, are selling for 7 cents each, plus $3.99 shipping charge:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...8917862&sr=8-1

Sample of Jordanian commentator's reaction to Cheney's "visit":
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6641911.stm
ABD AL-BARI ADWAN in PAN-ARAB AL-QUDS AL-ARABI

Sending Cheney to the Arab region is the last arrow in President Bush's quiver before he admits defeat and waves the white flag of surrender firstly in Iraq and then in Afghanistan. He has failed in both states and seen al-Qaeda turn into several al-Qaedas thanks to this failure.

EDITORIAL in LEBANON'S THE DAILY STAR

Cheney's tour represents another desperate attempt on the part of the Bush administration to salvage the floundering US mission in Iraq. Cheney is himself largely to blame for the disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq.

AYMAN AL-SAFADI in JORDAN'S AL-GHAD

Cheney's visit is aimed at only one thing, namely making neighbouring countries shoulder the responsibility of US failure in Iraq... Cheney is in the region on a rescue mission. He knows that the anger against the US policies in Iraq is basically anger against him personally, as he was the one behind the decision to go to war.

FAHD AL-FANIK in JORDAN'S AL-RA'Y

Cheney is not even taken seriously in his own country, so how can he expect to be taken seriously in the Middle East region, where he committed the grave mistake of invading Iraq and destroying an independent country that has nothing to do with terrorism and does not own weapons of mass destruction.....
Everyone in the M.E., and in the rest of the world, and 72 percent of AMerican adults in recent polling results, know how out of touch Bush and Cheney are, concerning their malicious folly of intrusion into Iraq, and the quagmire that they have kept the US Military coping with there, since....

Everyone...apparently, except for all of the leading 2008 republican "hopefuls"

....and here is the republican "solution" to the Bush/Cheney failed co-presidency:

Opinions from republican 2008 presidential frontrunners, per
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm

Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A962958260
'Freedom Is About Authority': Excerpts From Giuliani Speech on Crime
Published: March 20, 1994

.....We look upon authority too often and focus over and over again, for 30 or 40 or 50 years, as if there is something wrong with authority. We see only the oppressive side of authority. Maybe it comes out of our history and our background. What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. <h3>Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.......</h3>
Is it willfully ceding freedom that makes one free? I thought it was "work" that did it:
<img src="http://www.libraries.psu.edu/maps/photo/2-Auschwitz.jpg" height=300 width =440>
Quote:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/28/...n-mccain-iraq/
Transcript:

CNN’S JOHN ROBERTS: I wanted to talk to you about the situation in Iraq. Yesterday in an interview with Wolf Blitzer on The Situation Room. I want to play this back for you. You had this to say about the situation there.

<b>[McCAIN CLIP]: General Petraeus goes out there almost every day in an unarmed humvee. I think you oughta catch up. You are giving the old line of three months ago. I understand it.</b> We certainly don’t get it through the filter of some of the media.

ROBERTS: Senator, did you mean to say that, that General Petraeus goes out every day in an unarmed humvee?

SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R-AZ): I mean that there are neighborhoods safe in Iraq and he does go out into Baghdad and the fact is there has been significant progress and people are stuck in a time warp of three months ago. Of course, it’s still dangerous. Of course it’s still very dangerous. We only have two of the five brigades there and we are already seeing significant progress.

ROBERTS: Because I checked with General Petraeus’s people overnight and they said he never goes out in anything less than an up-armored humvee. You also told Bill Bennett on his radio program on Monday. You said there are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhood today yet retired General Barry McCaffrey said no Iraqi government official, coalition soldier, diplomat reporter could walk the streets of Baghdad without heavily armed protection. We’ve got two different stories here. Who’s right?

<b>McCAIN: Well, I’m not saying they could go without protection. The President goes around America with protection. So, certainly I didn’t say that.</b>
Quote:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/014108.php
(May 13, 2007 -- 11:33 AM EDT)

It was a credibility-killing moment for John McCain. Last month, the senator insisted that there are parts of Baghdad are safe for Americans to go for a stroll and that General Petraeus travels around the city "almost every day in a non-armed Humvee." Obviously, that was wrong. McCain took this to the next step, of course, when he went to a Baghdad market, surrounded himself with 100 soldiers, three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships, and then told reporters that was able to walk freely in Iraq's capital.

Tim Russert asked him about this on Meet the Press this morning. McCain responded:

<b>"I'll be glad to back to that market -- with or without military protection and Humvees, etc."</b>

It's hard to believe anyone will be impressed by this misplaced bravado, but it's worth remembering that the day after McCain took a heavily-protected stroll that market, <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1604931.ece">21 Shia</a> market workers were ambushed, bound, and shot at the same location.

Nevertheless, McCain thinks he can go for an unescorted walk in Baghdad? It's as if he's given up on being taken seriously altogether.

When a once-proud man becomes a joke, it's a sad thing to watch.
Quote:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...11/188705.aspx
The <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/10/AR2007051002129.html">Washington Post</a> previews his upcoming “60 Minutes” interview. “… Romney told CBS News's Mike Wallace that the Bush administration made ‘a number of errors’ in the prosecution of the Iraq war. ‘I don't think we were adequately prepared for what occurred. I don't think we did enough planning. I don't think we considered the various downsides and risks,’ says Romney, according to a transcript of Sunday's ‘60 Minutes’ released Thursday. But the Republican presidential hopeful said Bush's "surge" strategy deserves time to work.”

As we mentioned earlier, Romney is this week’s <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1619552,00.html?xid=rss-topstories">Time</a> cover boy. The focus of the piece is on his religion: "But Mitt Romney's candidacy raises a broader issue: Is the substance of private beliefs off-limits? You can ask if a candidate believes in school vouchers and vote for someone else if you disagree with the answer. But can you ask if he believes that the Garden of Eden was located in Jackson County, Mo., as the Mormon founder taught, and vote against him on the grounds of that answer? Or, for that matter, because of the kind of underwear he wears?"
and here is "the guy" who some hope will join the republican presidential "race":

Here is what Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid actually said:
Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267181,00.html
"Now I believe, myself, that the secretary of state, the secretary of defense and you have to make your own decision as to what the president knows: that this war is lost, that the surge is not accomplishing anything," Reid, D-Nev., told reporters.
.....and here is "potential" republican candidate Fred Thompson's reaction:
Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269631,00.html
Fred Thompson on Possible 2008 White House Run

Wednesday, May 02, 200

.......HANNITY: The biggest battle we have is this war on terror, this battle in Iraq. We have a really deep divide in the country. Senator Reid says the war is lost. We still have to finish the job there. Where do you stand in general on the war on terror and, more specifically, in Iraq, and on the divide surrounding Iraq?

THOMPSON: Well, let's talk about Senator Reid for a moment. Right before I came over here, I was sitting outside, getting a bite to eat, before we did our interview. A young woman came up and asked if she could sit down and talk to me a minute. Her name was Koeller (ph). She worked over at Morgan Stanley, but she had gone to West Point, and she had been a captain in the Army, and she was at the DMZ in South Korea at the time of 9/11.

I asked her what she thought about this. She said, "How in the world can anyone, any one of our leaders, declare war, declare that the war has been lost when we've got troops in the field? My friends are over there in the field. I know what they think about this."

<b>And, of course, it's just like all other Americans think. The very idea that they would do this and undercut our efforts over there is unprecedented. And it's not only unprecedented; it's awful politics.

We should not be fearful of these people politically. We just need to concentrate on what's right. What is right? We need to take advantage of any opportunity we've got down there. I've got a lot of faith in Petraeus. I knew him when he was at Fort Campbell when I was in the Senate. He tells me we've got a shot? We've got to take that shot.

We also have to keep in mind, though, there's going to be a day after Iraq. And whether we leave there under our own terms or not, it's still going to be a very dangerous world. If we leave there under bad circumstances, we're going to have a haven down there for terrorists. The whole area, I'm afraid, will become nuclearized.</b>

The Sunni countries are looking at what Iran is doing. And if we can't help with stability in that part of the world, they're going to help themselves, and they're going to go nuclear, in terms of weaponry and the ability to counteract what Iran's doing. The whole region is up for grabs.

HANNITY: And how do we deal with that? We've got the short-term problem of Harry Reid. We've got the political problem. Harry Reid says we lost. We've got to win in Iraq. Then you have the possibility of the two things you mentioned earlier. You combine Islamic fanaticism and nuclear technology, and you've got a guy, Ahmadinejad, to add to the equation that wants to wipe Israel off the map. You're president of the United States; that's a big burden to have on your shoulders.

THOMPSON: Of course it is, but it's the number-one challenge of this century and will be for a long time. And all these other things, all these other issues are important at different levels. This overwhelms everything else........
Who among them would ever hold Bush or Cheney accountable for any crimes against humanity?
<b>How can any of them be considered intelligent or able enough to be the POTUS when they embrace all of the failed and illegal Bush policies, and the rhetoric, in the face of the sub 30 percent Bush Cheney support, according to polls, and everything that we know, and have shared in linked references, throughout this forum?</b>

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Old 05-13-2007, 10:17 AM   #217 (permalink)
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So Mr. Cheney is making threats again. And we all know what happened the last time Mr. Cheney started making threats. I find it amazing that given the political climate in Washington DC, the poll numbers, the international scorn for America - that Mr. Cheney has the chutzpah to threaten anyone these days, let alone Iran. I used to think no way in hell we go into Iran, but Mr. Cheney is starting to make me nervous...

--

Cheney, on Carrier, Sends Warning to Iran
By DAVID E. SANGER
Published: May 12, 2007

Vice President Dick Cheney used the deck of an American aircraft carrier just 150 miles off Iran’s coast as the backdrop yesterday to warn that the United States was prepared to use its naval power to keep Tehran from disrupting oil routes or “gaining nuclear weapons and dominating this region.”

Mr. Cheney said little new in his speech, delivered from the cavernous hangar bay of the John C. Stennis, one of the two carriers in the Persian Gulf. Each line had, in some form, been said before at various points in the four-year nuclear standoff with Iran, and during the increasingly tense arguments over whether Tehran is aiding insurgents in Iraq.

But Mr. Cheney stitched all of those warnings together, and the symbolism of sending the administration’s most famous hawk to deliver them so close to Iran’s coast was unmistakable. It also came just a week after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had talked briefly and inconclusively with Iran’s foreign minister, a step toward re-engagement with Iran that some in the administration have opposed.

Mr. Cheney’s sharp warnings appeared to be part of a two-track administration campaign to push back at Iran while leaving the door open to negotiations. It was almost exactly a year ago that the United States offered to negotiate with Iran as long as it first agreed to stop enriching uranium, a decision in which Mr. Cheney, participants said, was not a major player.

Senior officials said Mr. Cheney’s speech was not circulated broadly in the government before it was delivered. A senior American diplomat added, “He still kind of runs by his own rules.”

The speech was reminiscent of Mr. Cheney’s speeches about Iraq in August 2002, which argued against sending weapons inspectors back into Iraq and laid bare the split within the administration over how to deal with Saddam Hussein. But the circumstances with Iran are quite different. American officials say that so many troops are tied up in Iraq, and Iran has so much power to cause disruption there and in the oil markets, that an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities would be an enormous risk.

“This is about saber-rattling, and power projection,” one senior State Department official said yesterday. “And who better to do it?”

When President Bush ordered the two carriers into the Persian Gulf last year, senior officials said it was part of an effort to gain some negotiating leverage. About the same time, American military personnel began capturing some Iranians in Iraq, and some are still being held there. American officials have also been pressing European banks and companies to avoid doing business with Iran, hoping to disrupt its efforts to recycle its oil profits.

Oil seemed to be on Mr. Cheney’s mind yesterday when he told 3,500 to 4,000 members of the Stennis’s crew that Iran would not be permitted to choke off oil shipments.

“With two carrier strike groups in the gulf, we’re sending clear messages to friends and adversaries alike,” he said, according to an official transcript of his remarks. “We’ll keep the sea lanes open. We’ll stand with our friends in opposing extremism and strategic threats. We’ll disrupt attacks on our own forces. We’ll continue bringing relief to those who suffer, and delivering justice to the enemies of freedom. And we’ll stand with others to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons and dominating this region.”

Some Iran experts have questioned whether the threats delivered by administration officials help or hurt diplomacy with Iran.

“The problem with the two-track policy is that the first track — coercion, sanctions, naval deployments — can undercut the results on the second track,” said Ray Takeyh, an Iran scholar at the Council of Foreign Relations.

“There are some in Tehran who will look at Cheney on that carrier and say that everything Rice is offering is not real,” he said.

He added, “This is a case where we are trying to get through negotiations what, so far, we couldn’t get through coercion.”

Without question, symbols of coercion were part of the backdrop: Mr. Cheney spoke in front of five F/A-18 warplanes. While he never said so, it is clear to the Iranians that several of their major nuclear sites, including the uranium enrichment facility at Natanz, are within reach of the Navy’s weapons.

But mindful of the lasting imagery of President Bush on another carrier, there were no signs proclaiming success, much less “Mission Accomplished.” Instead, Mr. Cheney repeated his arguments about the danger of early withdrawal from Iraq, suggesting that it would empower Iran.

“This world can be messy and dangerous, but it’s a world made better by American power and American values,” he told the cheering crew. He then reached back to some language Mr. Bush had previously used to describe the goals of Al Qaeda — the word caliphate, which the president has avoided in recent times.

“Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants believe they can wear us down, break our will, force us out and make Iraq a safe haven for terror,” Mr. Cheney said. “They see Iraq as the center of a new caliphate, from which they can stir extremism and violence throughout the region, and eventually carry out devastating attacks against the United States and others.”
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:21 AM   #218 (permalink)
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Oh yeah? Well I'm willing to use naval power to keep Cheney from developing nuclear weapons. I don't have any proof that he's developing nuclear weapons, of course, but it's an easy way to demonize him.
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:49 AM   #219 (permalink)
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Well who can blame Iran for making nukes? They are frightened, disoriented, humiliated, isolated, and backed into a corner with Mr. Cheney growling at them again. I'd imagine you'd wet yourself real nice if Mr. Cheney growled at you too.
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:53 AM   #220 (permalink)
 
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so let's summarize for a moment shall we?
the bushplan, the "surge" is already giving way to calls for still more troops.
the situation on the ground in iraq appears to be growing increasingly chaotic.
there is no plan: the is no plan from the administration except to use the war to legitimate itself, to continue compounding error on error, with the result of what already to be a patterns of escalation resulting in escalation and a descent into a self-perpetuating spiral that may move from debacle to catastrophe.
meanwhile, the manly men of the bush team still talk in terms of "honor" and "resolve" while around them everything fragments.
meanwhile, the present composition of congress seems to exclude from debate any signifcant break with the self-undermining logic that we see playing out already with the result that some "middle ground" has to be sought, one that necessarily must take the (failed) positions of the bush people seriously.
congress cannot override a veto and there is apparently no hope of impeaching any of these fuckers.
public support in the states has collapsed: the international community watches aghast as the fiasco unfolds.
there is no public opposition: no action. nothing in the streets, no pressure.

and there is no plan.

it may be that the administration is pursuing something on the order of the biden plan beneath the surface--rice mets with the syrians, with the iranians--cheney with the saudis. but it is hard to tell because of the lopsided coverage provided for moments of dick-waving on the order of cheney's little carrier chat this past week.

meanwhile, here, people have retreated into their routines and busily act as though at some level everything is ok.

so at this point, maybe i'll refer back to loquitor's post earlier concerning stepping back to pose the question "what am i missing?"

ok so what am i missing here?
what are we not taking into account in this assessment of the situation?
anything?
i hope there is something that has been overlooked---i really do.
i just dont see it.
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Last edited by roachboy; 05-13-2007 at 11:02 AM..
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:22 AM   #221 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerclown
Well who can blame Iran for making nukes? They are frightened, disoriented, humiliated, isolated, and backed into a corner with Mr. Cheney growling at them again. I'd imagine you'd wet yourself real nice if Mr. Cheney growled at you too.
powerclown.....is that really you, posting that....or did someone hack your password?
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:37 PM   #222 (permalink)
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Yes, and I have no love lost for Iran.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:49 PM   #223 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerclown
Well who can blame Iran for making nukes? They are frightened, disoriented, humiliated, isolated, and backed into a corner with Mr. Cheney growling at them again. I'd imagine you'd wet yourself real nice if Mr. Cheney growled at you too.
I've read this like 50 times. I hope you understand that I have never, ever believed that Iran is developing nuclear weapons...you see there's no evidence that they're developing nuclear weapons. They're obviously developing nuclear power.

Iran is the most powerful Arab country in the world, and while they are obviously concerned that the crazies in the white house have turned their guns from Baghdad to Tehran, they also know that they aren't hated like Saddam and they aren't going to be a pushover like Saddam. They see that the world was willing to jump to their feet and millions protested to protect Iraq because the invasion was bullshit, and they know that, despite things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
All options are on the table,
...the fact of the matter is that no one has presented any evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, and if the UN doesn't have any intel with their inspectors, you can bet your ass that the people who linked Iraq with the al Qaeda and WMDs can't put a coherent sentence together let alone gather better evidence.

And if Cheney ever growled at me, I'd put on my bullet-proof vest and growl right the fuck back. That son of a bitch would have to earn my fear.
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Old 05-13-2007, 03:36 PM   #224 (permalink)
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Iran is also a vibrant, thriving democracy. One of the only democracies in the Arab world, with a youth culture that rivals America's. So there's no "freeing Iran from the evil dictator" justification. I think they know that "they're building nukes" claims will be subject to vastly more scrutiny this time around.

Honest to god, what just happened is, Cheney stood on that ship and pulled out his wang and proclaimed it the biggest in the land. This man's hands need to be taken off the reigns of our foreign policy.
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Old 05-13-2007, 03:47 PM   #225 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Iran is also a vibrant, thriving democracy. One of the only democracies in the Arab world, with a youth culture that rivals America's. So there's no "freeing Iran from the evil dictator" justification.
Quoted for truth, a truth that often goes unsaid by those who fear those in power. I'd be interested to see the Tehran movie and tv industry start to branch out and show the rest of the world what Iran is really like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Honest to god, what just happened is, Cheney stood on that ship and pulled out his wang and proclaimed it the biggest in the land. This man's hands need to be taken off the reigns of our foreign policy.
The funny thing is, there are millions of people who saw that and went, "I've seen bigger." (or "That thing hooks to the right so much it's no longer functional") That's the bottom line. The administration is suffering from PD: policy dysfunction, and every time the wang gets pulled out it becomes clearer and clearer.

BTW, I've just coined PD. Feel free to use it.
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Old 05-13-2007, 04:47 PM   #226 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Iran is also a vibrant, thriving democracy. One of the only democracies in the Arab world, with a youth culture that rivals America's.
Ok...let's not get carried away here. This is still IRAN we're talking about, a strictly religious theocracy with little of the benefits of true democracies. You make it sound like Switzerland. For all its energy needs, even China recognizes the need for caution with Iran. I understand that the younger generations in Iran are populous, intelligent and progressive, but unfortunately they haven't had a say in Iranian foreign policy in decades.

Now while I happen to think that the mullahs are busy cooking up nukes, I disagree with Mr. Cheney ratcheting up the tension level. I think its reckless and obtuse. I see no useful purpose in provoking frightened, paranoid, unstable people. This is one of the problems with having no diplomatic relations, where such things - if they need to be said at all - can be said in private and without the negative public relations ramifications. Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush have yet to learn that public humiliation is counterproductive. This seems to me the single biggest failing of the Bush administration. The thing is, there are people in the States who are acutely aware of the importance of tactful public relations.
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Old 05-13-2007, 04:53 PM   #227 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerclown
Ok...let's not get carried away here. This is still IRAN we're talking about, a strictly religious theocracy with little of the benefits of true democracies.
The last time I checked, Roe v. Wade was constantly under attack, people are trying to teach about dinosaurs at the nativity less than 6000 years ago, and the president has named 'god said so' as a reason for choices on foreign policy. If it weren't for liberals, we'd be in Iran without the oil.
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:00 PM   #228 (permalink)
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willravel, you need to see a real theocracy in action if you think we're anywhere close to one here. A place where women can't be seen in public without elaborate cover, where your hand gets cut off for theft, where if you happen to have a religion different from the accepted one you have to hide your worship, where you can't criticize the rulers or, worse, criticize the majority religion. We are very very far from that.

In fact, western countries that have established religions are far LESS religious societies than is the US, which does not have (and is prohibited from having) an established religion. Maybe we can make the country less religious by establishing a religion? <joke>
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:26 PM   #229 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
willravel, you need to see a real theocracy in action if you think we're anywhere close to one here. A place where women can't be seen in public without elaborate cover, where your hand gets cut off for theft, where if you happen to have a religion different from the accepted one you have to hide your worship, where you can't criticize the rulers or, worse, criticize the majority religion. We are very very far from that.
My point is that thing aren't black and white. Iran is not this crazy oppressed nation of Islamofacists the way everyone wants to make it. It's an Islamic republic, which means that it's a theocratic government that features representation of the populace. It's similar to the way the US would be if the Christians were to appoint Justices to somehow abolish the separation of church and state. They have legislation, judicial, economic, and other policy decisions by running them through the Qu'ran like a filter, to make sure that they agree with Islamic law. Luckily, the Qu'ran is really quite well written and teaches peace and equality, which brings us back to ratbastid's comment about freedom of youth culture in Iran as proof of my claim.

I'm still left wondering which is worse, removing the hand of a thief or spending millions on the asshole and sending him to a place that will harden him as a criminal and that will make him MORE likely to break the law again. Do you think one handed Frank is going to steal again? BTW, many in Iran are pushing for removing things like that from law. Obviously, things like stoning to death for adultery, hand removal for robbery, 80 lashes for slander or intoxication are a bit stern and no longer have a place in Iran. The nice thing about religious texts that are hundreds of years old is you can feel free to interpret it in whatever way suits you, so saying that removing of hands can mean lashing the hands until the stolen goods are removed from the hands would be kosher. I also get the impression that if the president/oval office monkey didn't have his finger on the button, the ME would feel a little more safe trying to move forward on their own.
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Old 05-14-2007, 04:22 PM   #230 (permalink)
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Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but it seems to me that the president Bush by his public embrace and private business relationship with Saudi leaders, and his appointment as head of executive branch HR chief, the former dean of christian right wing fundamentalist Pat Robertson's Regent University government school, Kay Cole James, who proceeded to hire 150 Regent alumni, educated in Robertson's own religious/political image and agenda, as well as the republican's outsized control by the CNP, is all too much to quietly accept:

Quote:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE230152001

LIBRARY MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA MIDDLE EAST SAUDI ARABIA
AI Index: MDE 23/015/2001 1 November 2001
Defying World Trends - Saudi Arabia's extensive use of capital punishment (1)

While the news of the execution of Timothy McVeigh in the United States of America travelled to every corner of the globe, with the minute details of how his life was destroyed, the world barely noticed that at least eight people were put to death in Saudi Arabia during the seven days just before and after his execution. This brought the number of people executed in Saudi Arabia to at least 78 in the first nine months of this year, and edged the total over the last decade to almost 1,000.(2) These figures beg the question as to why Saudi Arabia, with a population of some 19 million, has a yearly average of 100 executions, at a time when the number of countries which have abolished the death penalty in law or practice has increased to 109 in all regions and legal systems in the world. The defiance of this trend is sustained by a mixture of legal, judicial and political factors, whose redress requires a strong political will from the Saudi Arabian government together with a consistent concern and assistance by the international community.

The Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions, in her report to the UN Commission on Human Rights in 2001, outlined the international human rights standards relevant to the application of the death penalty. These include the prohibition of the application of the death penalty against children under the age of eighteen at the time of the crime being committed, the recommendation not to implement the death penalty on persons suffering from mental retardation or extremely limited mental competence, the prohibition of the death penalty for crimes that are not intentional with lethal or other extremely grave consequences, or for any offences other than the most serious crimes. She emphasised that ''It is imperative that legal proceedings in relation to capital offences conform to the highest standards of impartiality, competence, objectivity and independence of the judiciary, in accordance with the pertinent international legal instruments. In that context, defendants facing the death penalty must fully benefit from the right to adequate legal counsel at every stage of the proceedings and shall be presumed innocent until their guilt has been proved beyond reasonable doubt. The legal proceedings must, in all cases, respect and ensure the right of review of both the factual and legal aspects of the case by a higher instance.''(3)


I. Legal and Judicial factors

The extensive use of the death penalty in Saudi Arabia is primarily perpetuated by legal and judicial factors. These include an extremely wide range of capital offences, secret and summary criminal judicial processes, and discriminatory practices disadvantageous to foreign workers and women.

1.1 Wide range of capital offences

The scope for the use of the death penalty in Saudi Arabia is extremely wide both in terms of offences and offenders.

With regard to the nature of offences, these are so wide-ranging that it is hard to draw the line between morality and criminality. These offences are regulated by a mixture of Shari'a (Islamic law) rules and government legislated laws, most of which are extremely vague and therefore open to abuse. Shari'a based rules providing for the use of the death penalty are Qisas (retribution), Hudud (fixed punishments), and Ta'zir (discretionary punishments for offences that have no fixed punishment under Hudud or Qisas).

Under Qisas, the death penalty is prescribed for murder, but relatives of the murder victims are invested with the right to decide if the offender should be executed or pardoned, with or without compensation, in which case the death penalty is dropped. It should, however, be noted that while all Islamic schools of jurisprudence agree on the death penalty for intentional murder, they differ on what actually constitutes intentional murder, and whether quasi-intentional murder should also receive the same punishment, or merely compensation.(4)

The death penalty under Hudud is invoked in at least three instances: for adulterers where the sentence is carried out by stoning, for apostasy, and for highway robbery when the offence results in loss of life, according to the majority of Islamic jurists. However, in Saudi Arabia people have been executed for this offence even when it did not result in lethal consequences.

Government legislation includes at least two vaguely worded laws, one relating to drug offences based on Fatwa (a religious edict) No. 138 issued by the Council of Senior 'Ulama and approved by the government in March 1987, and the other on sabotage and ''corruption on earth'' based on Fatwa No. 148 issued in August 1988.
The law on drug offences made the death penalty mandatory for drug smugglers, importers as well as recidivist distributors.(5) It contains no definition of ''drugs'' or any limitation of the death penalty to a particular substance.

The law on sabotage and corruption on earth states that the death penalty will be imposed on:

''Anyone proved to have carried out acts of sabotage and corruption on earth which undermines security by aggression against persons and private or public property such as the destruction of homes, mosques, schools, hospitals, factories, bridges, ammunition dumps, water storage tanks, resources of the treasury such as oil pipelines, the highjacking and blowing up of air planes, and so on...''(6)


The use of the term ''corruption on earth'', in the absence of any clear definition, leaves the door open for the death penalty to be invoked even when offences do not result in lethal consequences.

The provision of the death penalty can be extended further under Ta'zir. If an act escapes the net of the death penalty under all the above rules, the death penalty can be invoked by the judge under Ta'zir on the grounds of the severity of the act, or the character of the offender. Examples of this include the execution of people for practising magic or witchcraft. As recently as 28 February 2000, Hassan bin 'Awad al-Zubair, a Sudanese national, was beheaded in Riyadh after being convicted of ''magic, charlatanism and sorcery''.

As regards offenders, Saudi Arabia does not have unequivocal safeguards preventing the use of the death penalty against particular categories of society such as children and the mentally ill. Children under the age of eighteen should be protected from the death penalty, because Saudi Arabia is a state party to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). The United Nations safeguards guaranteeing the protection of the rights of those facing the death penalty prohibits the carrying out of the death penalty against persons who have become insane. This Safeguard also prohibits the death penalty being carried out on persons who were below the age of eighteen when they committed the crime. The Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions notes that Saudi Arabia is one of six countries which were reported to have executed persons who were under the age of eighteen at the time of the crime being committed.(7) After that report, the Special Rapporteur wrote to the six governments, requesting information about their current laws and practice in regard to the use of the death penalty for juvenile offenders. However, Saudi Arabia did not respond to this request by the time the new report of the Special Rapporteur was published.(8) In practice, however, a number of children have been sentenced to death after Saudi Arabia acceded to the Convention in 1996. Death sentences were reported to have been imposed on two children aged 14 and 16. A 16-year-old boy was reportedly convicted on murder charges and sentenced to death in 1996, after the Convention came into force in Saudi Arabia. According to Saudi Arabian press reports, he was saved from execution only because his mother paid blood money, 500,000 SR (approx US$135,000) to the relatives of the murder victim. A 14-year old boy was reportedly detained in 1997 in Dammam in connection with the murder of an Egyptian woman and her 13-year old daughter. Saudi Arabian newspapers reported that police sources had disclosed that the boy had 'confessed' to the crime, that his confession was video-recorded by police, and that he was expected to face the death penalty. Amnesty International sought clarification from the government of both these cases, but received no response. The Committee on the Rights of the Child has recommended that the Saudi Arabian government ''take immediate steps to halt and abolish by law the imposition of the death penalty for crimes committed by persons under eighteen''(9)

As mentioned above   click to show 


<center><img src="http://www.leftflex.com/bushwar/bushwar.images/bush_saudi_ani01.gif"></center>
Doesn't our president's close ties with the Saudi monarch, and the business ties between his family and the "house of Saud", serve as an implicit endorsement of the brutality of Saudi rule?
Quote:
Saudi Arabia's Beheading Culture, Nation Denounces Hostage ...
Saudi Arabia denounced the beheadings, yet uses the same punishment routinely on gays ... On Friday, outside the main mosque in the Saudi capital, Riyadh, ...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in626196.shtml - 96k
With an endorsement by this secret christian fundamentalist billionaire's club, now a requirement to be the republican party candidate for POTUS, are we really as far removed from religious influence in our US government as Loquitur claims?
Quote:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...ng&sa=N&tab=nw
Fred Thompsons Just-Secret-Enough Meeting - The Caucus - Politics ...
Fred Thompson’s Just-Secret-Enough Meeting. Fred D. Thompson speaks to a secretive group of influential conservatives about the “rule of law and how that ...
thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/fred-thompsons-just-secret-enough-meeting/
Quote:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...nd&btnG=Search

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/25/us...2480c8&ei=5070
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: February 25, 2007

WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 — A group of influential Christian conservatives and their allies emerged from a private meeting at a Florida resort this month dissatisfied with the Republican presidential field and uncertain where to turn.

The event was a meeting of the Council for National Policy, a secretive club whose few hundred members include Dr. James C. Dobson of Focus on the Family, the Rev. Jerry Falwell of Liberty University and Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform. Although little known outside the conservative movement, the council has become a pivotal stop for Republican presidential primary hopefuls, including George W. Bush on the eve of his 1999 primary campaign.....
Quote:
http://origin.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_5677778
Krugman: There really is a vast (religious) conspiracy
CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM THE KEY TO WHITE HOUSE EMPLOYMENT
By Paul Krugman
San Jose Mercury News
Article Launched:04/16/2007 01:40:50 AM PDT

In 1981, Gary North, a leader of the Christian Reconstructionist movement - the openly theocratic wing of the Christian right - suggested that the movement could achieve power by stealth. "Christians must begin to organize politically within the present party structure," he wrote, "and they must begin to infiltrate the existing institutional order."

Today, Regent University, founded by the televangelist Pat Robertson to provide "Christian leadership to change the world," boasts that it has 150 graduates working in the Bush administration.

Unfortunately for the image of the school, where Robertson is chancellor and president, the most famous of those graduates is Monica Goodling, a product of the university's law school. She's the former top aide to Alberto Gonzales who appears central to the scandal of the fired U.S. attorneys and has declared that she will take the Fifth rather than testify to Congress on the matter.

The infiltration of the federal government by large numbers of people seeking to impose a religious agenda - which is very different from simply being people of faith - is one of the most important stories of the last six years. It's also a story that tends to go underreported, perhaps because journalists are afraid of sounding like conspiracy theorists.

But this conspiracy is no theory. The official platform of the Texas Republican Party pledges to "dispel the myth of the separation of church and state." And the Texas Republicans now running the country are doing their best to fulfill that pledge.

Chief personnel officer

Kay Cole James, who had extensive connections to the religious right and was the dean of Regent's government school, was the federal government's chief personnel officer from 2001 to 2005. (Curious fact: She then took a job with Mitchell Wade, the businessman who bribed Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham.) And it's clear that unqualified people were hired throughout the administration because of their religious connections.

For example, The Boston Globe reports on one Regent law school graduate who was interviewed by the Justice Department's civil rights division. Asked what Supreme Court decision of the past 20 years he most disagreed with, he named the decision to strike down a Texas anti-sodomy law. When he was hired, it was his only job offer.

Or consider George Deutsch, the presidential appointee at NASA who told a Web site designer to add the word "theory" after every mention of the Big Bang, to leave open the possibility of "intelligent design by a creator." He turned out not to have, as he claimed, a degree from Texas A&M.

One measure of just how many Bushies were appointed to promote a religious agenda is how often a Christian right connection surfaces when we learn about a Bush administration scandal.

There's Goodling, of course. But did you know that Rachel Paulose, the U.S. attorney in Minnesota - three of whose deputies recently stepped down, reportedly in protest over her management style - is, according to a local news report, in the habit of quoting Bible verses in the office?

Petty thievery

Or there's the case of Claude Allen, the presidential aide and former deputy secretary of health and human services, who stepped down after being investigated for petty theft. Most press reports, though they mentioned Allen's faith, failed to convey the fact that he built his career as a man of the hard-line Christian right.

And there's another thing most reporting fails to convey: the sheer extremism of these people.

You see, Regent isn't a religious university the way Loyola or Yeshiva are religious universities. It's run by someone whose first reaction to Sept. 11 was to brand it God's punishment for America's sins.

Two days after the terrorist attacks, Robertson held a conversation with Jerry Falwell on Robertson's TV show "The 700 Club." Falwell laid blame for the attack at the feet of "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians," not to mention the ACLU and People for the American Way. "Well, I totally concur," said Robertson.

The Bush administration's implosion clearly represents a setback for the Christian right's strategy of infiltration. But it would be wildly premature to declare the danger over. This is a movement that has shown great resilience over the years. It will surely find new champions.

Next week Rudy Giuliani will be speaking at Regent's Executive Leadership Series.
Quote:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=+site:www.boston.com+kay+cole+james+regents+boston.com[/url]

Scandal puts spotlight on Christian law school - The Boston Globe
But in 2001, the Bush administration picked the dean of Regent's government school, Kay Coles James , to be the director of the Office of Personnel ...
http://www.boston.com/news/education...an_law_school/
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:41 AM   #231 (permalink)
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>>>>>>>>>>> [from willravel] I'm still left wondering which is worse, removing the hand of a thief or spending millions on the asshole and sending him to a place that will harden him as a criminal and that will make him MORE likely to break the law again. Do you think one handed Frank is going to steal again?

Interesting issue. Back in law school I had some long late-night debates with people over whether our criminal punishment system was seriously broken. I was troubled by the fact that there are poor people and middle class people working hard and playing by the rules, but struggling to get by, while criminals who are convicted get room, board, medical care and recreation courtesy of the state, plus enormous devotion of resources. My proposal was to remove a whole category of crimes from being eligible for imprisonment, primarily nonviolent ones, and either converting them to torts or imposing financial or other penalties like work. One of the people I used to argue with thought that even some violent criminals shouldn't be imprisoned, but instead should be subjected to corporal punishment (e.g., electric shocks or lashes), with a doctor present to ensure lack of permanent physical harm. What do you think of that?

Host, as for Saudi Arabia, given my druthers I'd have a crash program to come up with alternative energy sources and tell the Saudis to go drink their oil. Our need for petroleum-based energy has seriously distorted our politics and foreign policy. The only reason anyone in this world gives a shit about the two-bit dictatorships, theocracies and kleptocracies in that part of the world is that many of them are sitting on what we use for energy, so if they tell us we need to care, we don't have much choice.

As a national security strategy I'd slap a $2/gallon tax on gasoline, immediately. Of course, it will never ever ever happen. But that would be the single best thing we could do to straighten out our foreign policy. It would bring many alternative energy sources suddenly within the realm of economic feasibility.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:08 AM   #232 (permalink)
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at times like these...I always to pull out this.....


link
http://www.tehranmoca.com/en/index.aspx

Check out the permanent collection.

Iran is a vibrant and productive society...one that is currently experiencing the religious crackdown on a decade of progressive politics. The people of Iran have been robbed of a representative government therefore what we see, if you're only looking at "the news," is not representative of the people of Iran, either.

The real irony is that, with all of this posturing and condescension, we could be fucking up the one real chance we have for pulling a success out of our ass in Iraq. I believe that Iran is the key.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:14 AM   #233 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
As a national security strategy I'd slap a $2/gallon tax on gasoline, immediately. Of course, it will never ever ever happen. But that would be the single best thing we could do to straighten out our foreign policy. It would bring many alternative energy sources suddenly within the realm of economic feasibility.
That will certainly not happen under Bush/Cheney, who came into office with a plan to expolit Iraqi oil as evident from documents from Cheney's Energy Task Force, which incliuded execs from Exxon, Conoco, Shell, BP ...and no one representing alternative energy sources.
Documents turned over in the summer of 2003 by the Commerce Department as a result of the Sierra Club’s and Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as two charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents, dated March 2001, also feature maps of Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the project’s costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date.

Documented plans of occupation and exploitation predating September 11 confirm heightened suspicion that U.S. policy is driven by the dictates of the energy industry.
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/8.html
http://www.judicialwatch.org/iraqi-oil-maps.shtml
I agree with you on an energy tax, particularly with the record profits of the oil companies. Kucinich sponsored a windfall profit tax bill in 2005, The Gas Price Spike Act, (link) that, IMO, would have been better if the profits were directed to alternative energy, rather than mass transit...but in any case, it never received a committee hearing under the Repubs.

****
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
The real irony is that, with all of this posturing and condescension, we could be fucking up the one real chance we have for pulling a success out of our ass in Iraq. I believe that Iran is the key.
MM.....Bush/Cheney fucked it up 4 years ago, shortly after the fall of Baghdad, when Iran, through the Swiss, offered to meet with the US to discuss, among other things, working to stabilize Iraq.
Quote:
The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its "legitimate security interests." Iran agreed to put a series of U.S. aims on the agenda, including full cooperation on nuclear safeguards, "decisive action" against terrorists, coordination in Iraq, ending "material support" for Palestinian militias and accepting the Saudi initiative for a two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The document also laid out an agenda for negotiations, with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

That's pretty comprehensive, all right. And why did we turn down the offer? Kessler tells us that too:

Top Bush administration officials, convinced the Iranian government was on the verge of collapse, belittled the initiative. Instead, they formally complained to the Swiss ambassador who had sent the fax with a cover letter certifying it as a genuine proposal supported by key power centers in Iran, former administration officials said.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._06/009033.php
Would it have accomplished anything? Who knows...Colin Powell and the State Department supported the talks. Cheney vetoed it, and the only thing accomplished in the subsquent 4 years was strengthening Iran's position in the region and within the Iraqi government.

I couldnt agree more with this conclusion....great diplomacy at work, huh?:
That demonstrates some savvy foreign policy insight, doesn't it? Turn down an unprecedented offer from Iran when they're weak and we're strong, and then three years later reluctantly agree to much narrower talks when they're stronger and we're weaker. Great job, guys.
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Last edited by dc_dux; 05-15-2007 at 06:52 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:50 AM   #234 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
>>>>>>>>>>> ......Host, as for Saudi Arabia, given my druthers I'd have a crash program to come up with alternative energy sources and tell the Saudis to go drink their oil. Our need for petroleum-based energy has seriously distorted our politics and foreign policy. The only reason anyone in this world gives a shit about the two-bit dictatorships, theocracies and kleptocracies in that part of the world is that many of them are sitting on what we use for energy, so if they tell us we need to care, we don't have much choice.

As a national security strategy I'd slap a $2/gallon tax on gasoline, immediately. Of course, it will never ever ever happen. But that would be the single best thing we could do to straighten out our foreign policy. It would bring many alternative energy sources suddenly within the realm of economic feasibility.
The main point of my last post was to respond to your comments in your previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by loquitur
......In fact, western countries that have established religions are far LESS religious societies than is the US, which does not have (and is prohibited from having) an established religion. Maybe we can make the country less religious by establishing a religion? <joke>
I think that my last post strongly supports my contention that the current administration in DC has injected the most disturbingly pervasive christian fundamentalist influence in the executive branch, ever.....and until 4 months ago, when a new congress convened, the new, stronger influence of christian fundamentalism was also strongly evident in that branch of government, as well....and it's influence has polluted the DOJ, the SCOTUS and other federal courts, as well.

Are you comfortable with every republican presidential candidate, including Giuliani, groveling at the "altar" of either a secret CNP meeting or at Pat Robertson's Regent U., or....at both? Did you know that the contents of Bush's 1999 address to a CNP meeting, which presumably won him the "endorsement" of the "group", or at least did not convince them to work against his candidacy in the 2000 race, has still never been revealed, to this day? Did you know that Fatherland Security deputized CNP member, Erik Prince's 20,000 man, private "army", Blackwater, to protect the property of NOLA during the aftermath of Katrina, instead of hiring them to provide aid or rescue for the stranded populace?
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301777_pf.html
Storm-Wracked Parish Considers Hired Guns
Contractors in Louisiana Would Make Arrests, Carry Weapons

By Renae Merle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 14, 2006; A01

.....Blackwater USA, which protected the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq and lost four employees in a brutal ambush in Fallujah in 2004, earned about $42 million through the end of December on a contract with Federal Protective Service, a unit of the Department of Homeland Security, to provide security to FEMA sites. Most of the 330 contract guards now working in Louisiana are employed by the company.

The Homeland Security Department's Inspector General said the company's costs in its FEMA contract -- it earns $950 a day for each employee -- were "clearly very high," and it expressed hope that competition would lower them. But costs are not the only concerns raised by critics of the companies.

"Katrina broke all of the rules. It was the first time you had the deployment of armed private security contractors in the U.S.," said Peter W. Singer, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and the author of "Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry."......
Quote:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...1fffa81556cc93
The Rise of Blackwater

New America Media, Radio Interview, Sandip Roy, Posted: Apr 22, 2007
.....How did Blackwater get to be so powerful?

A decade ago Blackwater was no more than a 5,000-acre plot in North Carolina. Its secretive founder Erik Prince grew up in Michigan where his father ran a company called Prince Manufacturing, which serviced the auto industry. Erik Prince saw his dad use the business as a cash-generating engine to fuel the rise of the religious right in this country. He gave the seed money to Gary Bauer to found the Family Research Council. Erik Prince was an intern there. They were significant bankrollers of James Dobson and his Focus on the Family. Eric had been one of the wealthiest people ever to join the Navy SEALS. When he opened Blackwater, its stated purpose in 1996-97 was to anticipate government outsourcing of training and firearm related activity. .......
Quote:
http://content.hamptonroads.com/stor...202519&tref=po

By BILL SIZEMORE, The Virginian-Pilot
© March 30, 2006

Stepping into a potential political minefield, Blackwater USA is offering itself up as an army for hire to police the world's trouble spots.

Cofer Black, vice chairman of the Moyock, N.C.-based private military company, told an international conference in Amman, Jordan, this week that Blackwater stands ready to help keep or restore the peace anywhere it is needed.

Such a role would be a quantum leap for Blackwater and raises a host of policy questions.

Until now, the eight-year-old company has confined itself to training military and police personnel and providing security guards for government and private clients. Under Black's proposal, it would take on an overt combat role.

"We're low-cost and fast," Black was quoted as saying. "The issue is, who's going to let us play on their team?".....
...and who is Cofer Black?
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301476_pf.html
Wrongful Imprisonment: Anatomy of a CIA Mistake
German Citizen Released After Months in 'Rendition'

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 4, 2005; A01

.........The Counterterrorist Center

After the September 2001 attacks, pressure to locate and nab potential terrorists, even in the most obscure parts of the world, bore down hard on one CIA office in particular, the Counterterrorist Center, or CTC, located until recently in the basement of one of the older buildings on the agency's sprawling headquarters compound. With operations officers and analysts sitting side by side, the idea was to act on tips and leads with dramatic speed.

The possibility of missing another attack loomed large. "Their logic was: If one of them gets loose and someone dies, we'll be held responsible," said one CIA officer, who, like others interviewed for this article, would speak only anonymously because of the secretive nature of the subject.

<h3>To carry out its mission, the CTC relies on its Rendition Group</h3>, made up of case officers, paramilitaries, analysts and psychologists. Their job is to figure out how to snatch someone off a city street, or a remote hillside, or a secluded corner of an airport where local authorities wait.

Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons -- referred to in classified documents as "black sites," which at various times have been operated in eight countries, including several in Eastern Europe.

In the months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the CTC was the place to be for CIA officers wanting in on the fight. The staff ballooned from 300 to 1,200 nearly overnight.

"It was the Camelot of counterterrorism," a former counterterrorism official said. "We didn't have to mess with others -- and it was fun."

Thousands of tips and allegations about potential threats poured in after the attacks. Stung by the failure to detect the plot, CIA officers passed along every tidbit. The process of vetting and evaluating information suffered greatly, former and current intelligence officials said. "Whatever quality control mechanisms were in play on September 10th were eliminated on September 11th," a former senior intelligence official said.

<h3>J. Cofer Black, a professorial former spy who spent years chasing Osama bin Laden, was the CTC's director.</h3> With a flair for melodrama, Black had earned special access to the White House after he briefed President Bush on the CIA's war plan for Afghanistan.

Colleagues recall that he would return from the White House inspired and talking in missionary terms. Black, now in the private security business, declined to comment.....
Quote:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/3/27/8527/72512
DeVos Wages War On Public Education, But Meet His Brother In Law...
By Bruce Wilson Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:52:07 AM EST
topic: Education and Public Schools section:Public Education printable version print this story
Last March 31, 2006, I covered the Christian right's war on public education and a Department of Education commissioned study that revealed public schools, if anything, outperform their private school counterparts. But, does Amway fortune heir Dick Devos care, or does he view institutions of public education, that Jefferson saw as integral to American Democracy, as obstacles in the way of a long range scheme to undermine democracy ? In a 2002 Heritage Institute address Devos, a leader in the war on public education who wants Intelligent Design in schools, is associated with Christian Reconstructionist views, and has been a significant funder of the "Council On National Policy" and served as the CNP's president in the late 1980's, outlined a "stealth strategy" for eliminating public schools. If DeVos succeeds in his jihad against public schools and American Democracy, maybe his brother-in-law Erik Prince, who owns Blackwater USA, the subject of a new expose by Jeremy Scahill and possibly the most powerful private mercenary army in the world, could help out with the ensuing anarchy... for a price, of course. (See Nation article on Blackwater, or full story for video with Jeremy Scahill )......http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070402/scahill
loquitur, I don't feel comfortable with a large "private army" in the hands of a billionaire, fundamentalist christian fascist hyper patriot, with the man who was formerly "Mr. Rendition" at the CIA, now one of his chief "henchmen"....maybe it's just me.....I'm a little "funny" in that way.....
Quote:
http://www.pogo.org/m/dp/dp-IG-LATimes-09032005.pdf

Pentagon Investigator Resigning
By T. Christian Miller
Times Staff Writer
September 3, 2005
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon's top investigator has resigned amid accusations
that he stonewalled inquiries into senior Bush administration officials suspected of
wrongdoing.
Defense Department Inspector General Joseph E. Schmitz told staffers this week
that he intended to resign as of Sept. 9 <b>to take a job with the parent company of
Blackwater USA, a defense contractor.</b>
The resignation comes after Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) sent Schmitz several
letters this summer informing him that he was the focus of a congressional inquiry
into whether he had blocked two criminal investigations last year.
E. Schmitz, the Defense Department's inspector general, is suspected of blocking investigations of
senior Bush officials.....

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083102602.html
Pentagon's IG Takes Job at Contractor

By Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 1, 2005; Page D03

......Schmitz's new job will be chief operating officer and general counsel for the Prince Group, a firm that's divided between Michigan-based Prince Manufacturing and North Carolina-based Blackwater.........

.........Paul Behrends, a spokesman for Blackwater, said he is unaware of Schmitz's office undertaking any investigations of the company. "Joe has run the process of transitioning from the government to the private sector through the appropriate channels. There's no conflict of interest," he said.

But Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, said, "The inspector general is a standard-bearer for ethics and integrity for the Pentagon. To see a person who has been holding that position cash in on his public service and go work for one of their contractors is tremendously disappointing," she said.....
Quote:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
Council for National Policy (CNP) - Pe-Q - Member Biographies
Elsa Prince - CNP Board of Governors 1996, 1998; Family Research Council Board of Directors; Focus on the Family Board of Directors; member of Calvin ...
www.seekgod.ca/cnp.pe-q.htm - 89k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
JOHNSON CONTROLS TO ACQUIRE PRINCE AUTOMOTIVE
Elsa Prince, chairman of the Prince Board of Directors, is very pleased about the long-term benefit for the Prince team: "The Board and our family see this ...
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...y/23454&EDATE=

Michigan Liberal :: <b>Swiftboater Gary Glenn's ties as Dick DeVos</b> ...
Elsa Prince (Dick DeVos’ mother in law, and mother to Betsy (Prince) DeVos and Erik Prince, CEO of mercenary Blackwater, is listed as the top contributor ...
http://www.michiganliberal.com/showD...o?diaryId=6100
Do you and I even live in the same country, loquitur....and I do regard you as a "moderate", when it comes to your political leanings, but even as what passes today for a moderate in the US, the gulf between you and I...what we each perceive is happening with regard to the damage done by six years of "one party" rule, and the rising influence on US politics from the fundamentalist christian right, coupled with the corporatist "overtones" of the entire alliance of nearly all republicans and "money party" democrats...is sooo different....so different!

Last edited by host; 05-15-2007 at 07:16 AM..
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Old 05-15-2007, 07:56 AM   #235 (permalink)
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Couple of thoughts on the last few posts:

1. Iran. So far as I can tell there is a race on: will the good people of Iran, who are sick of the abusive regime and eager to live as normal people, succeed in toppling the mullahs before the mullahs make themselves much more powerful by getting a nuclear weapon and redirecting the country's energies to external "enemies" (which is the oldest dictatorship trick in the book)? There appear to be some fissures already, particularly in the areas of Iran that are inhabited by ethnic minorities like Azeris and Kurds. I hope the process of holding the mullahs accountable accelerates. Iran is a historically rich culture that is being brought to ruin by a small collection of fanatics. This could be, in the right circumstances, the ideal country to be the next secular (or at least quasi-secular) muslim-majority democracy. And I believe a majority of Iranians want it to be so. [Host, Iran is the classic example of an established religion giving the religion a bad name. Lots of Iranians are REALLY pissed at the theocrats.]

2. Host, if I'm a moderate (which, by your framing, I sort of am, though it's not how I'd characterize myself, which is more along the lines of freethinking nondoctrinaire libertarian), perhaps that helps you place some of what's written here along the spectrum. I believe one theme of much of what I have posted has been that people should calm down. I still think much of what gets written here is horribly overwrought. As I have said before, this is a fundamentally strong and decent country, and when we have had excesses they have tended to correct themselves over time. I'll certainly concede that what one considers an "excess" is open to debate. But the basic pattern in the US is that it seems to do a pretty good job at self-correction. Give Madison and Hamilton their due.
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Old 05-15-2007, 08:42 AM   #236 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Bush/Cheney fucked it up 4 years ago, shortly after the fall of Baghdad, when Iran, through the Swiss, offered to meet with the US to discuss, among other things, working to stabilize Iraq.
Iranian Foreign Minister Walks Out Of Dinner With Condi
(CBS/AP) Iran's foreign minister walked out of a dinner of diplomats where he was seated directly across from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on the pretext that the female violinist entertaining the gathering was dressed too revealingly.

"I don't know which woman he was afraid of, the woman in the red dress or the secretary of state," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Friday, regarding the actions of Iran's Manouchehr Mottaki.

Rice herself was questioned by reporters about the lack of a direct conversation with Mottaki, even though it appeared she was "chasing" him.

"Uh, well, you could ask him why he didn't make an effort," she replied. Then she laughed. "Look, I'm not given to chasing anyone."

So the face to face between Rice and Mottaki never happened, reports CBS News correspondent Charlie D'Agata. Instead, U.S. and Iranian delegations met at a lower, "expert" level, which while significant, is not a first.

"Our officials did, as they did in Baghdad, have an opportunity to exchange views about the substance of this meeting," Rice said.

So much of this Iraq summit has been about the U.S. and Iran, but with good reason, reports D'Agata. America blames Iran for violence in Iraq, Iran blames America, and the Iraqis have been urging both countries to put their differences aside and put Iraq first.

The dinner episode Thursday night amid a major regional conference on Iraq perfectly revealed how hard it was to bring together the top diplomats of the two rival nations.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:08 AM   #237 (permalink)
 
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Powerclown...whats your point? That Mottaki snubbed Rice? And that has what to do with the missed opportunity in 2003?

Perhaps Mottaki read the Wash Post artilce before the conference where both US and Iran minimized his importance:
Quote:
In Washington and Tehran, Mottaki is not seen as an influential figure in the government of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. "This is not the right time, the right place or the right guy" for serious U.S.-Iran talks in Sharm el-Sheikh, a U.S. official said yesterday.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...nav=rss_nation
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:28 AM   #238 (permalink)
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It also says that Iran is talking to the US at a "lower, expert" level, which I think is a good thing for the US.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:42 AM   #239 (permalink)
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Maybe now there will be slightly less reluctance in the US, to viewing Iranians as the caucasian, <h3>NON-ARABS</h3>, who they, in reality, are.....

Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/15/jer....ap/index.html
LYNCHBURG, Virginia (AP) -- The Rev. Jerry Falwell has died, a Liberty University executive said Tuesday. He was 73.

Earlier, the executive said Falwell was hospitalized in "gravely serious" condition after being found unconscious in his office......
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:49 AM   #240 (permalink)
 
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loquitor:

first, i think you have a pretty curious notion of iran. i dont know where it comes from. maybe you talk with expats who left because they supported the shah's delightful regime politically? sounds like it. i hope this doesnt sound sarcastic because i dont mean it to be: i am genuinely confused about where you get your impression of iran from.

second, on this:

Quote:
But the basic pattern in the US is that it seems to do a pretty good job at self-correction. Give Madison and Hamilton their due.
it seems to me that one of the main problems running through the present situation in the states is a breakdown in exactly that self-correction capability--which is and has been smooth-seeming mostly in retrospect, from a kind of hegelian vantagepoint (there he is again) such that dissonances get wiped away beneath the weight of a continuous distant historical narrative.

hamilton and madison were just people who did the best they could in a particular situation. they were neither more nor less than anyone else. they were no prophets, they were not ubermenschen. they outlined a system that has in the main worked ok (depending on your viewpoint) but about which nothing is guaranteed--nothing has been, nothing will be. i dont get the attribution of some heroic status to them. i really dont.
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