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-   -   If you could grill Gonzales ... (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/116460-if-you-could-grill-gonzales.html)

Willravel 04-19-2007 10:25 AM

If you could grill Gonzales ...
 
...what would you ask? As I've been listening to the Judiciary Committee questioning Attorney General/Torture Fiend Alberto Gonzales, I've been imagining questions that I would pose if I were on the Judiciary Committee.

"Mr. Gonzales, it seems, based on your testimony, that Mr. Sampson had the ability to overrule your authority and make decisions for you. Could you speak to the that fact, despite the fact that you had seniority over Mr. Sampson, who was the Chief of your staff?"

"Mr. Gonzales, Mr. Sampson gave the following testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee: 'I don't think the attorney general's statement that he was not involved in any discussions of U.S. attorney removals was accurate.' Can you speak, without using the word 'recall', to this?"

"Mr. Gonzales, how can you run a department that relies on facts when you seem to lack the ability, after being given 25 days to gather your facts and think about what happened, to remember only a few important conversations?"

"Mr. Gonzales, should each of the new attorneys have to go before the Congress for their conformation?"

"Mr. Gonzales, can you speak to the justifications for allowing torture?"

"Mr. Gonzales, which, to you, is more important: loyalty or the ability to do one's job?"

"Mr. Gonzales, what do you think happened to all of those emails?"

"Mr. Gonzales, when you resign later this week, who will you be covering for?"

host 04-19-2007 11:41 AM

General Gonzales.....why is it not reasonable to suspect that you and Scooter Libby, and Randy Cunningham have abetted treason or committed treaosnous acts, yourselves......during a "time of war", in view of Libby's convictions, and in view of this, today?:

Quote:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003055.php
WATCH the VIDEO

Schumer Tears into Gonzales
By Paul Kiel - April 19, 2007, 1:05 PM

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Alberto Gonzales went back and forth in the most heated exchange of the hearing so far.

Schumer began on the question of whether U.S. Attorney for San Diego Carol Lam had been told that there was a problem with her immigration enforcement numbers. That supposedly was the main reason for her firing.

Gonzales hedged the question, saying that Lam must have known that there was “interest” in and “concern” with her immigration performance. Members of Congress, Gonzales said, had complained about Lam’s performance. Gonzales allowed that she “may not have been told that if there is no change in policy, there will be a change,” but seemed to think that was an unimportant distinction.

Schumer pressed, citing the testimony of both Carol Lam and Kyle Sampson that Lam had never been told that she should change her office’s approach to immigration enforcement. And he took issue with the idea that the department would let members of Congress be representatives of the Justice Department.

The second half of Schumer’s testimony was even more contentious.......

Willravel 04-19-2007 11:48 AM

I was hoping you'd chime in, Host.

So far, I have to say that I'm impressed with many of the questions of the slime ball Gonzales. Right now, he's being asked who wrote the list, and Gonzales is giving his, "I don't recall" BS.

He'll resign this week.

aceventura3 04-19-2007 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I was hoping you'd chime in, Host.

So far, I have to say that I'm impressed with many of the questions of the slime ball Gonzales. Right now, he's being asked who wrote the list, and Gonzales is giving his, "I don't recall" BS.

He'll resign this week.

I wrote the list. I did it for political reasons. I wanted to send a message to those who did not get fired that I want them to go after Democrats. Now what?

Willravel 04-19-2007 01:19 PM

Ace = Gonzales? If that's the case, this thread could be construed a personal attack on a fellow member and should be shut down.

aceventura3 04-19-2007 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
Ace = Gonzales? If that's the case, this thread could be construed a personal attack on a fellow member and should be shut down.

I am not Gonzales.

There are a few points hidden (too well) in my post.

One - Gonzales should stop dancing around the issue and take responsibility.

Two - Even in the worst case, he fired the attorneys for all the wrong reasons, did he actually violate the law in doing so? I not aware of any violation of the law.

Three - The hearings are waste of time and resources. Even if Gonzales resigns, what is gained? Nothing in my opinion. Bush is going to replace him with the same kind of guy, there will be hearings, more grandstanding wasting more time and resources, etc.

Four - Democrats only have two more years of Bush, why not focus on the future.

Willravel 04-19-2007 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
One - Gonzales should stop dancing around the issue and take responsibility.

I think we can all agree on that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Two - Even in the worst case, he fired the attorneys for all the wrong reasons, did he actually violate the law in doing so? I not aware of any violation of the law.

He didn't violate the law, but he did act in the interest of politics over his responsibilities, and thus should no longer be Attorney General. At the end of the day this is about Gonzales ruining the reputation and ability of the office of US Attorney's. The meaning of the hearing is to determine whether Gonzales should continue as Attorney General. It's looking like they're going to ask for his resignation any second.
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Three - The hearings are waste of time and resources. Even if Gonzales resigns, what is gained? Nothing in my opinion. Bush is going to replace him with the same kind of guy, there will be hearings, more grandstanding wasting more time and resources, etc.

This is the man who stated that there was no right of Habeas Corpus in the Constitution. This is the man that allowed torture. This is the man that didn't persue the wire taps. This is the man that is responsible for US Attorneys being fired in the middle of important investigations. He is a danger every hour he is in office. This is also about sending a message to the next guy that he or she can't get away with anything they want. There are rules and standards of practice.
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Four - Democrats only have two more years of Bush, why not focus on the future.

Bush can do a lot more damage through people like Gonzales in the next 2 years. Along with trying to stop the war, the Dems have a lot to try and fix today.

pig 04-19-2007 02:41 PM

i just like it when smarmy little fucks like gonzales get put through the reamer. fuck him. if it sends a message that you will get blasted sooner or later for being an asshole on my dollar, then i'm all for it. bush, that beady-eyed little bastard, likely would replace him with some other crap of his ilk. before that, it was what? harriette meyers? but in asfar as it goes, let him squirm.

aceventura3 04-19-2007 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet
i just like it when smarmy little fucks like gonzales get put through the reamer. fuck him. if it sends a message that you will get blasted sooner or later for being an asshole on my dollar, then i'm all for it. bush, that beady-eyed little bastard, likely would replace him with some other crap of his ilk. before that, it was what? harriette meyers? but in asfar as it goes, let him squirm.

I can appreciate your honesty.

Just like Gonzales should be forthcoming so should Congress and everyone else. I think we know they are really doing this for the cameras and to get votes from the folks back home. Even Republicans have joined in, to show that they are "tough" "independent" and willing to take a stand against the Bush Administration - after a good reading of several opinion polls of course.

I would just love for Gonzales to simply say, "yea- I fired them, so f-ing what! But I have no sense of drama. We going to have to hear them go on and on about the integrity of our judicial system, and how the trust of the American people has been lost, blah, blah, blah.

Elphaba 04-19-2007 04:11 PM

If I could grill Gonzales...
...like salmon with alder wood chips. :(

filtherton 04-19-2007 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba
If I could grill Gonzales...
...like salmon with alder wood chips. :(

I was thinking the same thing, though i was going to say medium with barbecue sauce.

pig 04-19-2007 05:21 PM

ace,

the moons must be in some odd fucking alignment, because i've found myself agreeing with more than one of your more recent posts. this whole thing revolves, in an indirect fashion, on the disenfranchisement of 99% of american citizen's say in the government. how do you do that? exactly like they do it at publix. you have a name brand. you have a generic. guess what? same company makes 'em both.

so these dicks that are in power will stay in power. its just a question of whose face will be on the tv. i'd like to say that will change. it could change. but it will take a hell of lot more americans getting pissed off for it to happen.

or a coup d'etat. you know, whatever. if 95% of americans don't give a shit that they are selling their rights out hardcore right now; would they give a shit if a revolution cleanly snipped the admin out of place and replaced it? highly unlikely.

host 04-20-2007 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
I can appreciate your honesty.

Just like Gonzales should be forthcoming so should Congress and everyone else. I think we know they are really doing this for the cameras and to get votes from the folks back home. Even Republicans have joined in, to show that they are "tough" "independent" and willing to take a stand against the Bush Administration - after a good reading of several opinion polls of course.

I would just love for Gonzales to simply say, "yea- I fired them, so f-ing what! But I have no sense of drama. We going to have to hear them go on and on about the integrity of our judicial system, and how the trust of the American people has been lost, blah, blah, blah.

ace....your cynicism, whether motivated by partisanship or by a more sincere rationale steeped in the experiences of your life, is IMO, seriously off the mark.

This is an example of what passed for "checks and balances"....for "accountability", for the past six years.....until January, 2007:
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020600931.html
U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee Holds a Hearing on Wartime Executive Power and the NSA's Surveillance Authority
Part I of IV
<a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2006/02/06/gonzales-under-oath/">(Watch the Video)</a>

CQ Transcriptions
Monday, February 6, 2006; 3:05 PM

......FEINGOLD: Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a quick clarification?

SPECTER: Senator Feingold?

FEINGOLD: Heard your judgment about whether the witness should be sworn. What would be the distinction between this occasion and the confirmation hearing where he was sworn?

SPECTER: The distinction is that it is the practice to swear nominees for attorney general or nominees for the Supreme Court, or nominees for other Cabinet positions, but the attorneys general have appeared here on many occasions in the 25 years that I have been here and their might be a showing, Senator Feingold, to warrant swearing.

FEINGOLD: Mr. Chairman, I'd just say that the reason that anyone would want him sworn has to do with the fact that certain statements were made under oath at the confirmation hearing.<b> So it seems to me logical that, since we're going to be asking about similar things, that he should be sworn in this occasion, as well.</b>

LEAHY: And, Mr. Chairman, if I might on that point -- if I might on that point, of course, the attorney general was sworn in on another occasion other than his confirmation, when he and Director Mueller appeared before this committee for oversight.

And I had asked the chairman, as he knows, earlier that he should be sworn on this. And I made that request right after the press had pointed out where an answer to Senator Feingold appeared not to have been truthful. And I felt that that is an issue that's going to be brought up during this hearing, and we should go into it.

LEAHY: I also recall the chairman and other Republicans insisting that former Attorney General Reno be sworn, which she came up here on occasions other than her confirmation.

I think, especially because of the article about the questions of the senator from Wisconsin, Senator Feingold, I believe he should have been sworn. That is, obviously, the prerogative of the chairman.

But I would state again, and state strongly for the record, what I've told the chairman privately. I think in this instance, similar to what you did in April with Attorney General Gonzales and Director Mueller, both of whom were sworn, and as the chairman did on -- insisted with then-Attorney General Reno, I believe he should be sworn.

SPECTER: Well, Senator Leahy and I have not disagreed on very much in the more than a year since we've worked together as the ranking and chairman, and I think it's strengthened the committee.

And I did receive your request. And I went back and I dug out the transcript and reviewed Senator Feingold's vigorous cross- examination of the attorney general at the confirmation hearings.

And I know the issues as to torture, which Senator Feingold raised, and the issues which Senator Feingold raised as to searches without warrants.

And I have reviewed the provisions of 18 USC 1001 in the case involving Admiral Poindexter, who was convicted under that provision; and have reviewed the provisions of 18 United States Code 1505, where Oliver North was convicted. And there are penalties provided there commensurate with perjury.

<b>And it is my judgment that it is unnecessary to swear the witness.</b>

LEAHY: But, Mr. Chairman, may I ask, if the witness has no objection to being sworn, why not just do it and then not have this question raised here? I realize only the chairman can do the swearing in.

LEAHY: Otherwise, I'd offer to give him the oath myself, insofar as he said he was willing to be sworn in. But if he's willing to be, why not just do it?

SESSIONS (?): Mr. Chairman...

SPECTER: Well, the answer to why I'm not going to do it is that I've examined all the facts and I've examined the law and I have asked the attorney general whether he would object or mind and he said he wouldn't. And I have put that on the record.

<h3>But the reason I'm not going to swear him in is not up to him. Attorney General Gonzales is not the chairman; I am. And I'm going to make the ruling.</h3>

(CROSSTALK)

LEAHY: I would point out that he's been here before this committee three times. The other two times he was sworn. It seems unusual not to swear him in this time.

FEINGOLD (?): Chairman, I move the witness be sworn.

SPECTER: The chairman has ruled. If there is an appeal from the ruling of the chair, I have a pretty good idea how it's going to come out.

FEINGOLD (?): Mr. Chairman, I appeal the ruling of the chair.

SPECTER: All in favor of the ruling of the chair, say "aye."

(UNKNOWN): Roll call.

SPECTER: Opposed?

FEINGOLD (?): Ask for a roll call vote.

SPECTER: The clerk will call the roll.

I'll call the roll.

(LAUGHTER)

SESSIONS: Out of the question.

(LAUGHTER)

SPECTER: Senator Hatch?

HATCH: No.

SPECTER: Senator Grassley?

GRASSLEY: No.

SPECTER: Senator Kyl?

KYL: Mr. Chairman, is the question to uphold or to reject the ruling?

SPECTER: The question is to uphold the ruling of the chair, so we're looking for ayes, Senator.

(LAUGHTER)

LEAHY: But we're very happy with the noes that have started on the Republican side, they being the better position.

HATCH (?): I'm glad somebody clarified that.

SPECTER: So the question is, "Should the ruling of the chair be upheld that Attorney General Gonzales not be sworn?"

(CROSSTALK)

SPECTER: By proxy for Senator Brownback, aye.

Senator Coburn?

(CROSSTALK)

SPECTER: We've got enough votes already.

Senator Leahy?

LEAHY: Emphatically, no.

(CROSSTALK)

SPECTER: Aye.

The ayes have it.

FEINGOLD: Mr. Chairman, I request to see the proxies given by the Republican senators.

SPECTER: Would you repeat that, Senator Feingold?

FEINGOLD: I request to see the proxies given by the Republican senators.

SPECTER: The practice is to rely upon the staffers. But without counting that vote -- well, we can rephrase the question if there's any serious challenge of the proxies.

This is really not a very good way to begin this hearing.

SPECTER: But I've found that patience is a good practice here.

SESSIONS: Mr. Chairman (OFF-MIKE) very disappointed that we went through this process.

This attorney general, in my view, is a man of integrity. And having read the questions, as you have, that Senator Feingold put forward, and his answers, I believe he'll have a perfect answer to those questions when they come up at this hearing.

And I do not believe they're going to show he perjured himself in any way or was inaccurate in what he said.

And I remember having a conversation with General Myers and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and one of the saddest days in their career was having to come in here and stand before a Senate committee and raise their hand as if they are not trustworthy in matters relating to the defense of this country.

And I think it's not necessary that a duly confirmed Cabinet member have to routinely stand up and just give an oath when they are, in effect, under oath and subject to prosecution if they don't tell the truth.

I think it's just a question of propriety and good taste and due respect from one branch to the other.

And that's why I would support the chair.

LEAHY: Mr. Chairman, I don't...

SPECTER: Let's not engage in protracted debate on this subject. We're not going to swear this witness, and we have the votes to stop it.

Senator Leahy?

LEAHY: Mr. Chairman, I have stated my position why I believe he should be sworn in. But I understand that you have the majority of votes.

Now, the question for this hearing goes into the illegality of the government's domestic spying on ordinary Americans without a warrant......
......and the American voters grew impatient with the lack of accountability, and they voted for change, last november.

This is an example of that "change", manifesting itself, in the US Senate, yesterday:

Quote:

http://www.elpasotimes.com/election/ci_5706839
<center><img src="http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site525/2007/0419/20070419_065350_0419gonzaLES_200.jpg">
<h3>Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is sworn in prior to testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee</h3> in the U.S. Capitol in Washington Thursday, April 19, 2007 about the controversial dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys....</center>
....click on the "watch the video" link, in the first quote box, ace. You can watch the republican majority abdicate their constitutional responsibilities and vote away their own political power.......

tecoyah 04-20-2007 05:24 AM

Would You be comfortable, hiring someone to represent you who "couldnt Recall" your case at all?

aceventura3 04-20-2007 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace....your cynicism, whether motivated by partisanship or by a more sincere rationale steeped in the experiences of your life, is IMO, seriously off the mark.

Each moment as I listened to the hearings yesterday my cynicism grew. As I get older my tolerance for b.s. get lower. The b.s. coming from that hearing was thick from both parties and from Gonzales. One of the reasons I like Bush and Chaney is they say what they mean and mean what they say, even if what they say is not tactful or smooth.

pig 04-20-2007 06:23 AM

ace, i'd just like to point out that i don't think there's much factual basis for that last sentence. they may not speak in complex sentence structures, but that's entirely different from "meaning what you say."

tecoyah 04-20-2007 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
-snip- One of the reasons I like Bush and Chaney is they say what they mean and mean what they say, even if what they say is not tactful or smooth.

Or.....True

Unfortunately, it seems a large portion of the citizenry of this country, find reason to question the majority of what the POTUS, and VP say in public. Much of this "doubt" is a direct result of experience from past....indescretions.

Mr . Gonzalez is a victim of his position, and the distrust the administration garners in everything it says. It's likely none of this would even be on the table if people were comfortable believing what they were told.

The_Jazz 04-20-2007 07:06 AM

Folks, can we please keep to the topic at hand? The last few posts haven't had a single commonality with the question posed.

Mr. Gonzales, you've obviously had trouble remembering meetings that have proven to be very important in hindsight. Would you please share with the committee exactly what you do recall being the reasons for these firings and exactly what was asked of you by both the White House and members of the Senate?

host 04-20-2007 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
......One of the reasons I like Bush and Chaney is they say what they mean and mean what they say, even if what they say is not tactful or smooth.

To All readers, forgive me for doing this.....it seemed to achieve the result, after posting the facts over and over and over.....of stopping the ludicrous statements that "Saddam had WMD but......",

ace......I read what I've quoted from you, above, and my reaction is that it is as if I am not even here....as if I have not already posted the following:

Bush and Cheney are frequent liars, ace....on life and death matters concerning our national security:

Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresid...p20011114.html
Interview of the Vice President
by CBS's 60 Minutes II
November 14, 2001

......<b>Gloria Borger: Well, you know that Muhammad Atta the ringleader of the hijackers actually met with Iraqi intelligence.

Vice President Cheney: I know this. In Prague in April of this year as well as earlier. And that information has been made public. The Czechs made that public. Obviously that's an interesting piece of information.</b>

Gloria Borger: Sounds like you have your suspicions?

Vice President Cheney: I can't operate on suspicions. The President and the rest of us who are involved in this effort have to make what we think are the right decisions for the United States and the national security arena and that's what we're doing. And it doesn't do a lot of good for us to speculate. We'd rather operate based on facts and make announcements when we've got announcements to make. .........
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresid...p20011209.html
December 9, 2001

The Vice President Appears on NBC's Meet the Press

.......RUSSERT: Let me turn to Iraq. When you were last on this program, September 16, five days after the attack on our country, I asked you whether there was any evidence that Iraq was involved in the attack and you said no.

<b>Since that time, a couple of articles have appeared which I want to get you to react to. The first: The Czech interior minister said today that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the September 11 terrorists attacks on the United States, just five months before the synchronized hijackings and mass killings were carried out..
</b>
........RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.

Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?

<b>CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.</b>

Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue...........
<b>Curiously, on June 17, 2004, VP Cheney seems to have denied his own Nov. and Dec., 2001, publicly televised, videotaped, and officially archived statements:</b>
Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10036925/
'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Nov. 11th
Updated: 10:08 a.m. ET Nov 14, 2005

......MATTHEWS: All this week we‘ve been examining the Bush administration‘s claims about Iraq that sold America on the war. We‘ve looked at claims that Saddam was a nuclear threat, that our troops would be greeted as liberators and that administration ally Ahmed Chalabi could be trusted.

All of those claims, of course, were false. Tonight, we offer you a closer look at another key White House argument. The alleged link between Iraq and 9/11. HARDBALL correspondent David Shuster reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID SHUSTER, HARDBALL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just days after the 9/11 attack, Vice President Cheney on “Meet the Press” said the response should be aimed at Osama bin Laden‘s al Qaeda terror organization, not Saddam Hussein‘s Iraq.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein is bottled up at this point, but clearly we continue to have fairly tough policy where the Iraqis are concerned.

TIM RUSSERT, NBC HOST: Do we have any evidence linking Saddam Hussein or Iraqis to this operation?

CHENEY: No.

SHUSTER: But during that same time period, according to Bob Woodward‘s book, “Bush at War,” Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was pushing for military strikes on Iraq. And during cabinet meetings, Cheney quote, expressed deep concern about Saddam and would not rule out going after Iraq at some point.

That point started to come 11 months later, just before 9/11‘s first anniversary. The president and vice president had decided to redirect their war on terror to Baghdad.

So, with the help of the newly-formed White House Iraq group, which consisted of top officials and strategists, the selling of a war on Iraq began and the administration‘s rhetoric about Saddam changed.

Not only did White House hawks tell The New York Times for a front-page Sunday exclusive that Saddam was building a nuclear weapon, and not only did five administration officials that day go on the Sunday television shows to repeat the charge.......

CHENEY: That he is in fact, actively and aggressively seeking to acquire nuclear weapons.

SHUSTER: But the White House started claiming that Iraq and the group responsible for 9/11 were one in the same.

BUSH: The war on terror—you can‘t distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror.

We‘ve learned that Iraq has trained members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases.

He‘s a threat because he is dealing with al Qaeda.

SHUSTER: In pushing the Saddam/Iraq/9/11 connection, both the president and the vice president made two crucial claims.

First, they alleged there had been a 1994 meeting in Sudan between Osama bin Laden and an Iraqi intelligence official.

BUSH: We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade.

SHUSTER: After the Iraq war began, however, the 9/11 Commission was formed and reported that while Osama bin Laden may have requested Iraqi help, quote, Iraq apparently never responded.

<b>The other crucial pre-war White House claim was that 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met in a senior Iraqi intelligence official in the Czech republic in April of 2001.

GLORIA BORGER, CNBC HOST: You have said in the past that it was quote, pretty well confirmed.

CHENEY: No, I never said that.

BORGER: OK, I think that is...

CHENEY: ... I never said that. That‘s absolutely not...</b>
Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/
By Jim Miklaszewski
Chief Pentagon correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:14 p.m. ET March 2, 2004

......In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.

The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and <b>the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq.</b>

....The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, >but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late — Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone. “Here’s a case where they waited, they waited too long and now we’re suffering as a result inside Iraq,” Cressey added.
Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3070394/
Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq
Evidence of ricin, botulinum at Islamic militants’ camp
By EXCLUSIVE By Preston Mendenhall
MSNBC

SARGAT, Iraq, April 4 - Preliminary tests conducted by MSNBC.com indicate that the deadly toxins ricin and botulinum were present on two items found at a camp in a remote mountain region of northern Iraq allegedly used as a terrorist training center by Islamic militants with ties to the al-Qaida terrorist network.

<h3>.....The territory of northern Iraq where the traces of ricin were detected is not under the control of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.</h3>
Quote:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh091806.shtml

.....As of August 21, Bush was still flatly asserting that Saddam “had relations with Zarqawi.” Raddatz asked him why he said it—and Bush engaged in standard blather. This has gone on, for year after year, because the press corps sits there and takes it—as they did last Friday, when Bush dissembled in their faces without challenge again.
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060821.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
August 21, 2006

Press Conference by the President
White House Conference Center Briefing Room

......Q Quick follow-up. A lot of the consequences you mentioned for pulling out seem like maybe they never would have been there if we hadn't gone in. How do you square all of that?

THE PRESIDENT: I square it because, imagine a world in which you had Saddam Hussein who had the capacity to make a weapon of mass destruction, who was paying suiciders to kill innocent life, who would -- <h3>who had relations with Zarqawi.</h3>
(Watch him deliver the "Zarqawi" lie in a 2 minute video, here:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Bus...-08-21-062.wmv )


Imagine what the world would be like with him in power. The idea is to try to help change the Middle East.

Now, look, part of the reason we went into Iraq was -- the main reason we went into Iraq at the time was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. But I also talked about the human suffering in Iraq, and I also talked the need to advance a freedom agenda. And so my question -- my answer to your question is, is that, imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein was there, stirring up even more trouble in a part of the world that had so much resentment and so much hatred that people came and killed 3,000 of our citizens.

You know, I've heard this theory about everything was just fine until we arrived, and kind of "we're going to stir up the hornet's nest" theory. It just doesn't hold water, as far as I'm concerned. The terrorists attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens before we started the freedom agenda in the Middle East.

Q What did Iraq have to do with that?

THE PRESIDENT: What did Iraq have to do with what?

Q The attack on the World Trade Center?

THE PRESIDENT: Nothing, except for it's part of -- and nobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a -- the lesson of September the 11th is, take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody has ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq. I have suggested, however, that resentment and the lack of hope create the breeding grounds for terrorists who are willing to use suiciders to kill to achieve an objective. I have made that case. .......
3 weeks later, last September, when some of the the determinations about Iraq of the Senate intel. committee were finally released, Mr. Cheney spoke to Tim Russert and said the opposite of what the Senate intel. report and the CIA had concluded. Cheney did the same thing this week, on April 5.....telling the same long disproved falsehoods that he told last September, and many times before that:
Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17970427/
Saddam’s pre-war ties to al-Qaeda discounted
By R. Jeffrey Smith
Updated: 10:56 a.m. ET April 6, 2007

Captured Iraqi documents and intelligence interrogations of Saddam Hussein and two former aides "all confirmed" that Hussein's regime was not directly cooperating with al-Qaeda before the U.S. invasion of Iraq, according to a declassified Defense Department report released yesterday.

The declassified version of the report, by acting Inspector General Thomas F. Gimble, also contains new details about the intelligence community's prewar consensus that the Iraqi government and al-Qaeda figures had only limited contacts, and its judgments that reports of deeper links were based on dubious or unconfirmed information. The report had been released in summary form in February.

The report's release came on the same day that Vice President Cheney, appearing on Rush Limbaugh's radio program, repeated his allegation that al-Qaeda was operating inside Iraq "before we ever launched" the war, under the direction of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the terrorist killed last June.......
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0070405-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
April 5, 2007

Interview of the Vice President by Rush Limbaugh, The Rush Limbaugh Show
Via Telephone

1:07 P.M. EDT

Q It's always a great privilege to have the Vice President, Dick Cheney, with us. Mr. Vice President, welcome once again to our program.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, thank you, Rush. It's good to be back on......

.....Q It may not just be Iraq. Yesterday I read that Ike Skelton, who chairs -- I forget the name of the committee -- in the next defense appropriations bill for fiscal '08 is going to actually remove the phrase "global war on terror," because they don't think it's applicable. They want to refer to conflicts as individual skirmishes. But they're going to try to rid the defense appropriation bill -- and, thus, official government language -- of that term. Does that give you any indication of their motivation or what they think of the current plight in which the country finds itself?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sure -- well, it's just flawed thinking. I like Ike Skelton; I worked closely with Ike when I was Secretary of Defense. He's Chairman of the Armed Services Committee now. Ike is a good man. He's just dead wrong about this, though. Think about -- <b>just to give you one example, Rush, remember Abu Musab al Zarqawi, a Jordanian terrorist, al Qaeda affiliate; ran a training camp in Afghanistan for al Qaeda, then migrated -- after we went into Afghanistan and shut him down there, he went to Baghdad, took up residence there before we ever launched into Iraq; organized the al Qaeda operations inside Iraq before we even arrived on the scene,</b> and then, of course, led the charge for Iraq until we killed him last June. He's the guy who arranged the bombing of the Samarra Mosque that precipitated the sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni. This is al Qaeda operating in Iraq. And as I say, they were present before we invaded Iraq. ......
That was Cheney, this week, and this was Bush, himself, in 2002 and 2003:
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20030208.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
February 8, 2003

President's Radio Address

......... One of the greatest dangers we face is that weapons of mass destruction might be passed to terrorists who would not hesitate to use those weapons. Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases.

We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad. ........
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030206-17.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
February 6, 2003

President Bush: "World Can Rise to This Moment"

.......One of the greatest dangers we face is that weapons of mass destruction might be passed to terrorists, who would not hesitate to use those weapons. Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training.

We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network, headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. The network runs a poison and explosive training center in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad. The head of this network traveled to Baghdad for medical treatment and stayed for months. Nearly two dozen associates joined him there and have been operating in Baghdad for more than eight months.

The same terrorist network operating out of Iraq is responsible for the murder, the recent murder, of an American citizen, an American diplomat, Laurence Foley. The same network has plotted terrorism against France, Spain, Italy, Germany, the Republic of Georgia, and Russia, and was caught producing poisons in London. The danger Saddam Hussein poses reaches across the world.

This is the situation as we find it. Twelve years after Saddam Hussein agreed to disarm, and 90 days after the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous vote, Saddam Hussein was required to make a full declaration of his weapons programs. He has not done so. Saddam Hussein was required to fully cooperate in the disarmament of his regime; he has not done so. Saddam Hussein was given a final chance; he is throwing that chance away. ......
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
Hussein Link to 9/11 Lingers in Many Minds

By Dana Milbank and Claudia Deane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, September 6, 2003; Page A01

...... Then, in declaring the end of major combat in Iraq on May 1, Bush linked Iraq and the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks: "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions."

Moments later, Bush added: "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. In these 19 months that changed the world, our actions have been focused and deliberate and proportionate to the offense. We have not forgotten the victims of September the 11th -- the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got." .......
....and Bush again, here:
Quote:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat
We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases. And we know that after September the 11th, ...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021007-8.html -
From my Sept. 12, 2006 post:
Quote:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...24&postcount=3
We offer here, mostly what Bozell branded as, reporting of the "Liberal Media".
With a member of our family in the military, and now about to be deployed to the M.E., we wanted to know who to believe.

The "news" is, that it is not Mr. Cheney:
On sunday, he was saying this, during a prominent news program, telecast:
(From my last post, at the bottom)
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060910.html
.....Q Then why in the lead-up to the war was there the constant linkage between Iraq and al Qaeda?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's a different issue. Now, there's a question of whether or not al Qaeda -- whether or not Iraq was involved in 9/11; separate and apart from that is the issue of whether or not there was a historic relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. The basis for that is probably best captured in George Tenet's testimony before the Senate intel committee in open session, where he said specifically that there was a pattern, a relationship that went back at least a decade between Iraq and al Qaeda......

........we know that Zarqawi, running a terrorist camp in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, after we went into 9/11 -- then fled and went to Baghdad and set up operations in Baghdad in the spring of '02......

.........Zarqawi was in Baghdad after we took Afghanistan and before we went into Iraq. You had the facility up at Kermal, a poisons facility run by an Ansar al-Islam, an affiliate of al Qaeda......
<b>Cheney was saying it, even though this was reported, just two days before:</b>
Quote:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2410591
By JIM ABRAMS, AP Writer Fri Sep 8, 12:17 PM ET

WASHINGTON - There's no evidence
Saddam Hussein had a relationship with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his Al-Qaida associates, according to a Senate report on prewar intelligence on
Iraq. Democrats said the report undercuts
President Bush's justification for going to war.....

.....It discloses for the first time an October 2005
CIA assessment that prior to the war Saddam's government "did not have a relationship, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates."......
<b>The rest of this post consists of 17 news article excerpts that refute Mr. Cheney's assertions to Tim Russert last September, and to Rush Limbaugh, this week....</b>

Posted May 2, 2006:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...8&postcount=63
Posted May 2, 2006:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=64
Posted June 26, 2006:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...8&postcount=22
Posted Sept. 9, 2006:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...93&postcount=7
Posted Sept. 15, 2006:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...9&postcount=47
.....and this article:
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/po...tel.ready.html
Report Warned Bush Team About Intelligence Doubts

By DOUGLAS JEHL
Published: November 6, 2005

WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 — A top member of Al Qaeda in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.

The document, an intelligence report from February 2002, said it was probable that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, “was intentionally misleading the debriefers’’ in making claims about Iraqi support for Al Qaeda’s work with illicit weapons.

The document provides the earliest and strongest indication of doubts voiced by American intelligence agencies about Mr. Libi’s credibility. Without mentioning him by name, President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Colin L. Powell, then secretary of state, and other administration officials repeatedly cited Mr. Libi’s information as “credible’’ evidence that Iraq was training Al Qaeda members in the use of explosives and illicit weapons.

Among the first and most prominent assertions was one by Mr. Bush, who said in a major speech in Cincinnati in October 2002 that “we’ve learned that Iraq has trained Al Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and gases.’’
click to read the rest...   click to show 


In outlining reasons for its skepticism, the D.I.A. report noted that Mr. Libi’s claims lacked specific details about the Iraqis involved, the illicit weapons used and the location where the training was to have taken place...
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060320-7.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
March 20, 2006

President Discusses War on Terror and Operation Iraqi Freedom

.....Q Mr. President, at the beginning of your talk today you mentioned that you understand why Americans have had their confidence shaken by the events in Iraq. And I'd like to ask you about events that occurred three years ago that might also explain why confidence has been shaken. Before we went to war in Iraq we said there were three main reasons for going to war in Iraq: weapons of mass destruction, the claim that Iraq was sponsoring terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11, and that Iraq had purchased nuclear materials from Niger. All three of those turned out to be false. My question is, how do we restore confidence that Americans may have in their leaders and to be sure that the information they are getting now is correct?

THE PRESIDENT: That's a great question. (Applause.) First, just if I might correct a misperception. I don't think we ever said -- at least I know I didn't say that there was a direct connection between September the 11th and Saddam Hussein. We did say that he was a state sponsor of terror -- by the way, not declared a state sponsor of terror by me, but declared by other administrations. We also did say that Zarqawi, the man who is now wreaking havoc and killing innocent life, was in Iraq. And so the state sponsor of terror was a declaration by a previous administration. But I don't want to be argumentative, but I was very careful never to say that Saddam Hussein ordered the attacks on America.

Like you, I asked that very same question, where did we go wrong on intelligence. The truth of the matter is the whole world thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. It wasn't just my administration, it was the previous administration. It wasn't just the previous administration; you might remember, sir, there was a Security Council vote of 15 to nothing that said to Saddam Hussein, disclose, disarm, or face serious consequences. The basic premise was, you've got weapons. That's what we thought.

When he didn't disclose, and when he didn't disarm, and when he deceived inspectors, it sent a very disconcerting <b>message to me, whose job it is to protect the American people and to take threats before they fully materialize.</b> My view is, he was given the choice of whether or not he would face reprisal. It was his decision to make. And so he chose to not disclose, not disarm, as far as everybody was concerned. ......
Mr. Bush was talking about "take threats before they fully materialize"......and when the "Zarqawi was there" declaration is exposed as a lie what remans to justify the invasion of iraq aside from illegal aggressive war?

Note how the Bush administration reacted to Sen. Levn's damning September 8, 2006 statement:
Quote:

http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroo....cfm?id=262690
News from Senator Carl Levin of Michigan
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 8, 2006

Contact: Press Office
Phone: 202.228.3685
Senate Floor Statement on the Senate Intelligence Committee’s Phase II Report

Today the Senate Intelligence Committee is releasing two of the five parts of Phase II of the Committee’s inquiry into prewar intelligence. One of the two reports released today looks at what we have learned after the attack on Iraq about the accuracy of prewar intelligence regarding links between Saddam Hussein and al Qa’ida. The report is a devastating indictment of the Bush-Cheney administration’s unrelenting, misleading and deceptive attempts to convince the American people that Saddam Hussein was linked with al Qa’ida, the perpetrators of the 9-11 attack.....

......The Administration statements also flew in the face of the CIA’s January 2003 assessment that al-Libi was not in position to know whether training had taken place.

So here’s what we’ve got.

<h3>The President says Saddam had a relationship with Zarqawi.</h3> The Senate Intelligence Committee found that the CIA concluded in 2005 that “the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi.”

<h3>The President said Saddam and al Qa’ida were “allies.”</h3> The Intelligence Committee found that prewar intelligence shows that Saddam Hussein“viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime.” Indeed, the Committee found that postwar intelligence showed that he “refused all requests from al-Qa'ida to provide material or operational support.”

The Vice President called the claim that lead hijacker Mohammed Atta met with the Iraqi intelligence officer “credible” and “pretty much confirmed.” The Intelligence Committee found the intelligence shows that “no such meeting occurred.”

<h3>The President said that Iraq provided training in poisons and gasses to al Qa’ida.</h3> The Intelligence Committee found that postwar intelligence supported the prewar intelligence assessment that there was no credible reporting on al-Qa'ida training at “anywhere” in Iraq and that the terrorist who made the claim of training was “likely intentionally misleading his debriefers” when he said Iraq had provided poisons and gasses training.

But the Administration’s efforts to create the false impression that Iraq and al Qa’ida were linked didn’t stop with just statements. One of the most significant disclosures in the Intelligence Committee’s report is the account of <h3>the Administration’s successful efforts to obtain the support of CIA Director George Tenet to help them make that false case.</h3>

These events were of major significance – going to the heart of the Administration’s case for war on the eve of a congressional vote on whether to authorize that war.

On October 7, 2002, at a speech in Cincinnati, the President represented that linkage existed between Saddam and terrorist groups. He said that “Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorist.”

But that very day, October 7, 2002, <h3>in a letter to the Intelligence Committee the CIA declassified,</h3> at the request of the Committee, the CIA assessment that it would be an “extreme step” for Saddam Hussein to assist Islamist terrorists in conducting a weapons of mass destruction attack against the United States and that the likelihood of Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction, if he did not feel threatened by an attack, was “low.”

When made public, the CIA assessment would undercut the President’s case. Something had to be done. So, on October 8, 2002, the Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, issued a statement that “There is no inconsistency between our view of Saddam's growing threat and the view as expressed by the President in his speech.” The Tenet statement was aimed at damage control and undercut the CIA’s own crucial assessment at a critical time. The New York Times quoted Tenet prominently in a major story on October 9th.

<h3>We called Tenet before the Intelligence Committee on July 26, 2006.

In his testimony, quoted in the Intelligence Committee’s report, Mr. Tenet admitted that perhaps there was an inconsistency between the President's statement and the CIA's assessment.</h3>

Mr. Tenet said that he issued his statement denying an inconsistency after policymakers expressed concern about the CIA’s assessment as expressed in the declassified October 7th letter again, that it would be an extreme step for Saddam to assist Islamist terrorists in conducting a WMD attack.<h3> Tenet admitted to the Intelligence Committee that the policymakers wanted him to “say something about not being inconsistent with what the President had said.” Tenet complied.</h3>

Tenet acknowledged to the Committee in his July 26, 2006, testimony that issuing the statement was the “wrong thing to do.” Well, it was much more than that. It was a shocking abdication of a CIA Director’s duty not to act as a shill for any administration or its policies. Director Tenet issued that statement at the behest of the Administration on the eve of the Congress’s debate on the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. The use of the Director of Central Intelligence by the Administration to contradict his own Agency’s assessment in order to support a policy goal of the Administration was reprehensible and seriously damaged the credibility of the CIA.

The following is a compilaton of their reaction to Levin and the senate committee report. it is more or less in chronological order. i detailed more of it in the OP of this thread......

Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213211,00.html
Transcript: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on 'FOX News Sunday'

Sunday, September 10, 2006

WASHINGTON — The following is a partial transcript of the Sept. 10, 2006, edition of "FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace":


.....WALLACE: I don't have to tell you that one of the criticisms of the Bush administration — we heard it again today from Sen. Jay Rockefeller — is that all of you manipulated intelligence to push the country into war.

I want to discuss just one area, the issue of whether Iraq helped Al Qaeda with weapons of mass destruction.

Here's what the president said in October of 2002.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We've learned that Iraq has trained Al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And in March 2003, just before the invasion, you said, talking about Iraq, "and a very strong link to training Al Qaeda in chemical and biological techniques."

But, Secretary Rice, a Senate committee has just revealed that in February of 2002, months before the president spoke, more than a year, 13 months, before you spoke, that the Defense Intelligence Agency concluded this — and let's put it up on the screen.

"Iraq is unlikely to have provided bin Laden any useful CB" — that's chemical or biological — "knowledge or assistance."

Didn't you and the president ignore intelligence that contradicted your case?

RICE: What the president and I and other administration officials relied on — and you simply rely on the central intelligence. The director of central intelligence, George Tenet, gave that very testimony, that, in fact, there were ties going on between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime going back for a decade. Indeed, the 9/11 Commission talked about contacts between the two.

We know that Zarqawi was running a poisons network in Iraq. We know that Zarqawi ordered the killing of an American diplomat in Jordan from Iraq. There were ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Now, are we learning more now that we have access to people like Saddam Hussein's intelligence services? Of course we're going to learn more. But clearly ...

WALLACE: But, Secretary Rice, this report, if I may, this report wasn't now. This isn't after the fact. This was a Defense Intelligence Agency report in 2002.

Two questions: First of all, did you know about that report before you made your statement?

RICE: Chris, we relied on the reports of the National Intelligence Office, the NIO, and of the DCI. That's what the president and his central decision-makers rely on. There are ...

WALLACE: Did you know about this report?

RICE: ... intelligence reports and conflicting intelligence reports all the time. That's why we have an intelligence system that brings those together into a unified assessment by the intelligence community of what we're looking at.

That particular report I don't remember seeing. But there are often conflicting intelligence reports.

I just want to refer you, though, to the testimony of the DCI at the time about the activities. ...

WALLACE: That's the head of central intelligence.

RICE: Yes, head of central intelligence — that were going on between Al Qaeda and between Iraq.

But let me make a broader point. The notion, somehow — and I've heard this — the notion, somehow, that the world would be better off with Saddam Hussein still in power seems to me quite ludicrous.

Saddam Hussein had gone to war against his neighbors twice, causing more than a million deaths. He had dragged us into a war in 1991 because he invaded his neighbor Kuwait. We were still at war with him in 1998 when we used American forces to try and disable his weapons of mass destruction. We went to war again with him, day in and day out, as he shot at our aircraft trying to patrol no-fly zones. This was a mass murderer of more than 300,000 of his own people, using weapons of mass destruction.

The United States and a coalition of allies finally brought down one of the most brutal dictators in the Middle East and one of the most dangerous dictators in the Middle East, and we're better off for it.
Quote:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/20/cheney-lies/

...Cheney’s statement is a lie. Here’s precisely what the Senate Intelligence Committee found: http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

<i>Saddam Hussein attempted, unsuccessfully, to locate and capture al-Zarqawi and…the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi.</i> [p. 109]....
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060912-2.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 12, 2006

Press Briefing by Tony Snow

...Q Well, one more, Tony, just one more. Do you believe -- does the President still believe that Saddam Hussein was connected to Zarqawi or al Qaeda before the invasion?

MR. SNOW: The President has never said that there was a direct, operational relationship between the two, and this is important. Zarqawi was in Iraq.

Q There was a link --

MR. SNOW: Well, and there was a relationship -- there was a relationship in this sense: Zarqawi was in Iraq; al Qaeda members were in Iraq; they were operating, and in some cases, operating freely from Iraq. Zarqawi, for instance, directed the assassination of an American diplomat in Amman, Jordan. But they did they have a corner office at the Mukhabarat? No. Were they getting a line item in Saddam's budget? No. There was no direct operational relationship, but there was a relationship. They were in the country, and I think you understand that the Iraqis knew they were there. That's the relationship.

Q Saddam Hussein knew they were there; that's it for the relationship?

MR. SNOW: That's pretty much it.

Q The Senate report said they didn't turn a blind eye.

MR. SNOW: The Senate report -- rather than get -- you know what, I don't want to get into the vagaries of the Senate report, but it is pretty clear, among other things, again, that there were al Qaeda operators inside Iraq, and they included Zarqawi, they included a cleric who had been described as the best friend of bin Laden who was delivering sermons on TV. But we are simply not going to go to the point that the President is -- the President has never made the statement that there was an operational relationship, and that's the important thing, because I think there's a tendency to say, aha, he said that they were in cahoots and they were planning and doing stuff; there's no evidence of that. ....

Quote:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/15/bush-zarqawi-iraq/

Bush Rewrites History on Zarqawi Statements

During today’s press conference, ABC News reporter Martha Raddatz asked Bush why he continues to say Saddam “had relations with Zarqawi,” despite the Senate Intelligence Report findings that Hussein “did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi.” Bush replied: “I never said there was an operational relationship.” Watch it:

In fact, Bush has repeatedly asserted that Saddam “harbored” and “provided safe-haven” to Zarqawi:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040617-3.html
BUSH: [Saddam] was a threat because he provided safe-haven for a terrorist like Zarqawi… [6/17/04]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040923-8.html
BUSH: [Saddam] is a man who harbored terrorists - Abu Abbas, Abu Nidal, Zarqawi. [9/23/04]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030306-8.html
BUSH: [Zarqawi’s] a man who was wounded in Afghanistan, received aid in Baghdad, ordered the killing of a U.S. citizen, USAID employee, was harbored in Iraq. [3/6/03]

Transcript:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060915-2.html

MARTHA: Mr. President, you have said throughout the war in Iraq and building up to the war in Iraq that there was a relationship between Saddam Hussein and Zarqawi and al Qaeda. A Senate Intelligence Committee report a few weeks ago said there was no link, no relationship, and that the CIA knew this and issued a report last fall. And yet a month ago, you were still saying there was a relationship. Why did you keep saying that? Why do you continue to say that? And do you still believe that?

BUSH: The point I was making to Ken Herman’s question was that Saddam Hussein was a state sponsor of terror, and that Mr. Zarqawi was in Iraq. He had been wounded in Afghanistan, had come to Iraq for treatment. He had ordered the killing of a U.S. citizen in Jordan. <b>I never said there was an operational relationship.</b>
....and Cheney was "at it" again a month later:
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...061019-10.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
October 19, 2006

Satellite Interview of the Vice President by WSBT-TV, South Bend, Indiana
2nd Congressional District -
Representative Chris Chocola

........Q Are you saying that you believe fighting in Iraq has prevented terrorist attacks on American soil? And if so, why, since there has not been a direct connection between al Qaeda and Iraq established?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, the fact of the matter is there are connections. Mr. Zarqawi, who was the lead terrorist in Iraq for three years, fled there after we went into Afghanistan. He was there before we ever went into Iraq. The sectarian violence that we see now, in part, has been stimulated by the fact of al Qaeda attacks intended to try to create conflict between Shia and Sunni......
....please, ace.....Bush and Cheney do not "say what they mean", they are well documented to be habitual liars........

The_Jazz 04-20-2007 07:57 AM

host, while you've post a lot of interesting information here, it is not on topic. This thread will not turn into another discussion of White House foreign policy success or failures - we are discussing the Department of Justice here and specifically Attorney General Gonzales.

Last chance to stay on topic, folks.

reconmike 04-20-2007 08:00 AM

I love my new high speed scroll wheel ;)

Bill O'Rights 04-20-2007 08:30 AM

I really like Cracker Jacks, y'know. But, it seems to me that the prizes aren't anywhere near as cool as they used to be. And you don't get as much in a box anymore. What's up with that?

Willravel 04-20-2007 08:49 AM

You'd ask Gonzales about cracker jacks?

Bill O'Rights 04-20-2007 09:27 AM

Why? Does he like Cracker Jacks, too?

Ooohh...you mean the original thread topic. Well...after wading through the thread, I'd forgotten that there even was a topic.

Aahhh...I'm old...my mind wanders. I wonder, for example, why does a Reese's Peanut Butter Egg taste so much different from a regular Peanut Butter Cup?

The_Jazz 04-20-2007 09:34 AM

Bill,

You are getting old. The question is: why are Reese's Peanut Butter Eggs only sold once a year? No one cares about the taste so much as getting more.

Mr. Gonzales, do you recall that answer?

Since we're all apparently so hungry, perhaps this thread should be moved to Tilted Cooking....

Willravel 04-20-2007 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Ooohh...you mean the original thread topic. Well...after wading through the thread, I'd forgotten that there even was a topic.

So you're way of pointing out that the thread has been jacked is to threadjack? You'll forgive me, but that doesn't make any sense.

Getting back....

..."Mr. Gonzales, I cannot recall my question for you at this time. There may have been a question, but I cannot recall it as of this time. Recall, recall."

"Mr. Gonzales, you have repeatedly said that the prosecutors were fired because of their job performance. Out of the 93 prosecutors that were fired, can you name one reason for any of them to have been fired?"

ubertuber 04-20-2007 09:42 AM

I don't know how to phrase this exactly, but I've got a question about Gonzales.

I'd appreciate an explanation of what the job standard for US Attorneys which allowed them to be fired was relative to the job standard for the Attorney General which would allow him to keep his job and enjoy the full confidence of the President and Vice President, who evidently regard this incident to be no more than a communications error.

I'm aware that US Attorneys serve "at the pleasure of the President", but there's got to be some job description and evaluation that allows them to plan to do a good job. There has to be a way for them to know what to do if they want to keep their jobs. I'd like to know what their understanding of that something is, and how this is communicated to them.

Similarly, I'd like to know what Alberto Gonzales's understanding of that something is in relation to his own job - what he is expected to do in order to be understood as having done a good job and what he would to to keep or lose that position. Most of all, I'd like to know how these things were communicatedto him.

The_Jazz 04-20-2007 10:04 AM

Uber,

My understanding is that they have the same performance criteria as all political appointees. Basically they get to keep chugging along until they either find a better opportunity or piss someone off that's higher in the food chain than they are. For the US Attorneys that could include senators, congressmen, the AG, POTUS, VPOTUS, etc.

For the AG, the list is pretty much POTUS and VPOTUS. Implied is all the people directly for these folks who have the actual individual's ear. I'll be dc_dux can give us a more comprehensive and better explained list, but this what I've got.

The end result is that you can be absolutely incompetent but until either the press figures it out or you tick off the wrong person, you're fine. It's the magic of patronage.

Jinn 04-20-2007 10:22 AM

Mr. Gonzales - you seem to have difficulty remembering important things. Have you - I'm going to be quite frank, sir - have you been smoking the ganja? Do you habitually smoke marijuana cigarettes? Reefer? If you; that is to say.. if you doubt the relevancy of my question, I am asking in regards to your wretched memory. I've - to be quite honest - met adults who smoked enough marijuana to kill their entire brain.. and they seem to perceive past events in better clarity than you have, sir. How do you answer to the question of smoking the pot?

And did you, sir, in follow up.. inhale? Or did you not inhale?

ubertuber 04-20-2007 11:08 AM

The_Jazz:

I get that. I'm just thinking that supervisors typically indicate to their subordinates what it is that they ought to be doing. I'd like to know what indications the US Attorneys were given - explicitly and implicitly.

Elphaba 04-20-2007 04:03 PM

Mr. Gonzales, your testimony would appear to have given us two choices; as the Attorney General of the United States, you are either incompetent or corrupt. Is it possible that you are both?

Willravel 04-20-2007 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba
Mr. Gonzales, your testimony would appear to have given us two choices; as the Attorney General of the United States, you are either incompetent or corrupt. Is it possible that you are both?

I like this one. I'd like to ask Rummy, Cheney and even Bush that same thing. Evil or stupid?

Elphaba 04-20-2007 04:11 PM

Or worse, both. :)

seretogis 04-20-2007 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike
I love my new high speed scroll wheel ;)

I just wet myself. :grumpy:

reconmike 04-20-2007 07:45 PM

General Gonzales, were you following the same procedures when firing the US attorneys as Bell did in 1978 for Jimma Carter?

Where these attorneys investigating Republicans like the attorneys where investigating democrats in 1978 and where they fired for that reason?

And do you believe Carter and Bell were not grilled because the house and senate were controlled by democrats?

Willravel 04-20-2007 08:21 PM

Maybe we should compare the good Gonzales did with the good Bell did. I think you'll find that a one sided exercise.

Meanwhile, do you have any further information on the Bell dismissals besides "Bell fired some US attorneys in 1978".

reconmike 04-21-2007 08:19 AM

Sure Will here ya go,

Quote:

http://www.progressivehistorians.com...o?diaryId=1265 CANDIDATE JIMMY CARTER made a promise that no Presidential candidate will say in 2008, no matter what. And a promise that no candidate had made before. But strange as it was, it seemed to make sense in the wake of Watergate and the Nixon resignation. "If I ever tell a lie," Carter said. "If I ever mislead you, if I ever betray a trust or a confidence, I want you to come and take me out of the White House."

The obvious problem with such a neat promise, as Carter would find out is that its too hard for a Modern President to live up to. But this was 1976.

my history can beat up your politics :: Presidents Firing Prosecutors
Nixon had abused Presidential Power and snubbed both the judicial branch and the congress when he refused a request from Archibald Cox, the special prosector investigating Watergate, for the tapes Nixon had made of white house proceedings. It was not only a snub to the prosecutor but to the Congress, as the Congress had been promised that there would be a through investigation by an impartial investigator and the investigation would cover all evidence.

Nixon though he was in no position to do so, refused Cox's request and offered a compromise: a respected U.S. Senator John Stennis would review the evidence and summarize for the prosecutor. Cox understandably refused to compromise with the subect of an investigation and declined the offer. On Friday 19, 1973 he left his office and assumed that since most government offices were closed, there would be no resolution until the following Monday.


He was wrong. On Saturday October 20th, 1973, Nixon telephoned Attorney General Elliot Richardson and instructed him to fire Cox. As a special prosecutor, Cox worked for the justice department, and so technically Richardson was his boss. Richardson refused and his boss, President Nixon, fired him. Nixon then contacted Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus, informed him he was now Acting Attorney General and asked him to fire Cox. Ruckelshaus also refused. Both Richardson and Ruckelshaus had made committments to congress not to interfere with the investigation. Nixon then contacted the next highest ranking official in the Justice department Solicitor General Robert Bork. Bork, later a Supreme Court candidate, had made no such promise to Congress and promptly fired Cox.


While Saturday news items normally don't get as much press in this case the very fact that it had occured on teh weekend reeked of a cover-up. It was dubbed the "Saturday Night Massacre." Far from relieving Nixon of Watergate, it destroyed Nixon's public standing. Soon after Nixon would have his 'I am not a crook' press conference. A new special prosecutor was appointed and the investigation continued. The Supreme Court would eventually argue that Nixon needed to hand over the tapes. It could be said that his firing of Cox and the two highest ranking officials of the Justice Department -- even more than the break in -- was the event that made Watergate an unbeatable scandal.


And so the new candidate that would take the country by storm and the Democratic Party by surprise in 1976 wanted to establish himself as the ultimate anti-Nixon, an up-front President not capable of a Saturday Night Massacre. He told the party's convention in 1976" The Democratic Party must commit itself to steps to prevent many of the abuses of recent years. All federal judges and prosecutors should be appointed strictly on the basis of merit, without any consideration of political aspects or influence. But Jimmy Carter's Presidency would hit one of many snags when he, through his Attorney General, fired a U.S. Prosecutor prior to his term being completed. It was 1978, and U.S. Attorney David Marston, a Republican, had been investigating corruption in the Philadelphia area, which involved some Democratic politicians.


Carter recieved a phone call from Joshua Eilberg, a Philadelphia area congressman who was one of Marston's targets. Eilberg was accused of raking in a half million in legal fees in compensation for obtaining federal financing for a development project. Two days after the phone call with the congressman, Carter called his attorney General Griffin Bell and asked him to 'hurry up' with his replacement of Marston, which Bell did.


As US Attorney's serve at the pleasure of the President, and Marston was a previous President's appointment that was about to expire, there appeared nothing wrong. Except that when asked about it in an televsion press confrence, Carter was less than truthful. In reply to the first question on thesubject, he said that replacing Marston was Bell's concern, "and I've not interfered in it at all." Later he said. "I've not discussed the case with the Attorney General." After that Carter acknowledged that, yes, Congressman Eilberg had been in touch with him, but only after the President had jogged Bell into action on Marston-but wait a second, THAT contradicted Carter's claims that he had not interfered at all or talked with Bell. Carter would go on to say that he had heard of the Eilberg inquiry "a few minutes before the press conference" from his congressional liaison which was not credible as it had been in newspapers 2 days before the conference.

As TIME Magazine pointed out, the candidate who had promised never to lie had lied about four times about this matter.. Republicans had a field day, Carter had a rough summer and his one prized political possession, his credibility, was eroded. But that was all there was too it. To the extent people were outraged about the Marston firing, the outrage was more about Carter's mistruths s than about the practice.


It was, and is, fairly accepted that a New President could put in new Attorney Generals. Of the first 65 U.S. Attorneys named by the new Administration, 64 were Democrats.

As then Speaker Tip O'Neill put it, "That's the way the System works." O'Neill fumed that Marston was "a Republican political animal" who took office "with viciousness in his heart and for only one reason-to get Democrats." That may not have been fair as Marston pursed the former Republican chairman of Chester County as well as Democratic Representatives Eilberg and Daniel Flood and two powerful Democratic legislators. But the firing didn't work out too bad for him. He became a kind of martyr, and in the end Marston's investigation continued without him and Eilberg was prosecuted and forced to resign. Marston would later run unssucessful for mayor of Philadelphia as a Republican.


To this day the Marston firing is being compared to the actions of Attorney General Gonzales in firing eight US Attorneys for what appear to be political reasons. Some consdervative outlets such as Human Events and Rush Limbaugh are using the Marston case as an example that Democrats do this too.


David Marston, for his part, thinks it was far worse, saying in a recent interview that there is nothing in the Gonzales story like the call from EiIberg to Carter. That may or may not be true. The event itself was bad, and Carter paid for it, but the Carter Admin seems to have been void of systemic malice. It is true that Carter fired a U.S. Attorney for political reasons. And it is true that there is little justification for Carter's actions other than a blatant attempt to help a political ally who would then presumbably be around to vote for Carter's programs. but its hard to find a lot of other such activities in Carter's Presidency. The Boss Carter rap isn't going to fly.


Truman Fires Milligan

Before we get into the Gonzales matter, let's look at one more case: The firing of Maurice Milligan, US Attorney for Missouri, in 1945, a few days after Truman became President. This is another case being pointed especially by conservatives but also a lot of run of the mill reporters as an example of a Democrat firing a Republican US Attorney for political reasons. Maurice Milligan prosecuted Tom Pendergast, the boss who was responsible for Truman having a U.S. Senate Seat and in 1939 Pendergast was convicted for tax evasion by Milligan. Two years before, Senator Truman had filibustered Milligan's appointment unsuccessfully. Truman became Vice President, and President. Sure enough, as soon as Harry Truman became President Truman, he had Milligan fired.


It seems, at first, a cut and dry case of our beloved President Truman engaging in politics in the Judiciary. Getting rid of the guy who prosecuted his political boss. And indeed that is how it is now being presented on many websites. And to a certain extent it was. But maybe not the kind of politics folks are thinking. There is another aspect to this story. Jack Milligan, brother of Maurice, had been Truman's opponent in the 1934 Senate Race. And in 1940, Maurice Milligan would run and narrowly lose to Truman. In fact had it not been that the anti-Truman vote split, Truman never would have had a chance to get to the Vice Presidency or the Presidency. The Milligans were not only prosecutors but political opponents of Truman. And the firing occured nearly six years after Truman's boss Pendergast was convicted. In fact, at the time of the firing, Pendergast was dead. So it certianly wasn't "orders from the boss" that pressured Truman to fire Milligan. The relationship between Pendergast and Truman was complicated anyway, while Truman helped Pendergast with patronage matters, on issues Truman decided on his own. Firing Milligan could not have been to avoid an investigation as the investigation already happened. It may have been a long-harbored revenge for what Milligan did to Pendergast. But it seems far more likely that Truman was besting his own political opponents than avenging his old boss. While that wouldn't seem a proper use of Presidential power, it seems more explainable than using such power to block an investigation. Do we think that had a person run against George W. Bush in Texas they would be permitted to hold a U.S. Attorney's job?


As Carter's AG, Griffin Bell said, the posts were long considered patronage plums. "In the old days, when you changed political parties ...everyone in the U.S. attorney's office immediately resigned. Bell reflected that when President Harry S. Truman left office and Eisenhower was to take over, he remembered going to the U.S. attorney's office in Atlanta and everyone had cleared out. " It was dark," Bell said. " Every light was out. No one was there. ... That's just the way it was."


Even the man Bell fired on Carter's order, David Marston said he agreed with Law Professor John Yoo. agreed with an article by law professor John Yoo in the Wall Street Journal that said "Presidents need to have their own people in place in order to promote a consistent national agenda" and that U.S. Attorneys should serve at the pleasure of the President. However, Marston said he held Carter to a hire standard than other Presidents because he had made a promise to be fair about the judiciary.


Gonzales

So given this little history, let's look at the current scandal.


On December 7 2006, eight United States Attorneys were notified by the United States Department of Justice that they were being dismissed, after the Bush administration made the determination to seek their resignations. Critics claimed the dismissals were either motivated by desire to install attorneys more loyal to the Republican party or as retribution for actions or inactions damaging to the Republican party.


Performance was cited as the reason for the firing, which raised suspicion because six of the eight U.S. attorneys fired by the Justice Department ranked in the top third among their peers for the number of prosecutions filed last year, according to an analysis of federal records. In addition, five of the eight were among the government's top performers in winning convictions. The release of emails by Gonzales' chief of staff Kyle Sampson, showed that a number of statements from the Dept of Justice, including statements made by Gonzales himself, were inaccurate. Now even Newt Gingrich says Gonzales should resign.


If you've lost New, you've lost Republican America, it would seem.


American government is designed to be a day to day conflict of interest as the Founding Fathers felt that would best preserve the government. The President is the enforcer of the laws he makes, and thus the Judicary Act of 1789 gives the President a fairly free hand in appointing the Attorney General and appoint his people to the US Attorney's jobs, which throughout history have indeed been the key patronage office for supporters of the President with legal experience, requiring only consent of the Senate which is normally granted. Indeed, the history of Attorney Generals finds that many are supporters of the President, many are friends of the President, and of course JFK appointed his own brother. For the most part the American people seem to accept that a President appoints his own people to these type of jobs, and thus when Clinton took office, the firings of all 93 US attorneys caused outrage only among partisan Republicans, and only seems to resonate now with the most partisan of Republicans as a historical comparison to today's events.


But the Constituion also provides an independent judiciary, and It does seem to be another matter if one picks out justices after the've seen them at work and makes a call to remove them. That seems to go from the Executive hiring power to the interfering with those people once hired. Nixon didn't take that bruising well, we could also say that Franklin Roosevelt's one great misstep is when he tried to bully the Supreme Court. Appoint them, sayeth the popular consensus, but once working, don't interfere.


But most important of all, don't cover it up. It seems pretty clear that in firing David Marston, Carter may have done well to explain the firing the way Tip O' Neil did, that it was the American system at work. A Demcoratic President was putting in a Democratic U.S. attorney. But It was Carters untruthfulness in seeking to avoid the question that made it a scandal. The examples of Marston and Milligan are somewhat instructive in at least that political firings have happened in the past. But they don't account for the systematic plan to fire of this amount of attorneys at one time. And they certianly don't excuse misleading statements made to the Congress. Because Bush has shown a don't admit defeat philosphy' with Rumsfeld the only exception so far, the normal Washington story of resignation may or may not happen here (though Newt is a pretty heavy loss for Gonzales), but either way the scandal will do much to damage his Presidency.

But it won't truly be for the firing that Carter and Truman and of course Nixon shared in doing to varying extents, but for the attempt to cover it up.
Quote:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...703220312/1008 The Detroit News

Departing U.S. attorneys

U.S. attorneys who left office between 1981 and 2006, excluding those removed because of a change in presidential administration:

Total leaving prior to the expiration of their four-year term: 54

Appointed to U.S. judgeships: 18

Appointed to other federal jobs: 6

Ran for office: 4

Accepted state appointments: 2

Left for private practice: 15

Death: 1

Other: 8
Source: Congressional Research Service



The flap about the Bush administration's firing of eight U.S. attorneys is overblown. Subpoenas issued by the injudicious House Judiciary Committee for administration figures are an abuse of congressional authority. U.S. attorneys are executive branch appointees and serve at the pleasure of the president.

They are not federal judges and do not have lifetime tenure. It appears that most of the firings are based on policy differences between the Bush administration and the federal prosecutors involved. When critics complain that "politics" is involved in the firings, the appropriate answer is "yes -- so what?"

The firings appear to be over the federal district attorneys' lack of enthusiasm for prosecuting immigration, vote fraud and pornography cases or seeking the death penalty. We don't necessarily agree with the priorities in all of these areas. But presidents are entitled to set agendas and have their appointees adhere to them.

That said, some of the firings do appear to be shabby. Justice Department officials, including Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, have given shifting and inconsistent reasons for the firings. This has emboldened congressional Democrats to try to inflate the issue into a major scandal.

At first, Justice Department officials said some of the attorneys were removed for performance reasons. But many of them received excellent performance ratings. The release of internal administration e-mails has revealed such unappealing details as the fact that the federal prosecutor in Arkansas was apparently removed to make way for an aide to White House political adviser Karl Rove.

Two federal attorneys -- one in New Mexico and one in Washington state -- contend they were pressured by congressmen or administration officials to bring vote fraud prosecutions. Members of Congress should not pressure federal prosecutors or the Justice Department in any particular case. A general complaint from the administration that areas of the law aren't being pursued vigorously is supervision. A demand to launch a particular case against a particular individual is interference.

It's reasonable for members of Congress to try to find out which was which in these firings. But the huffing and puffing by Democrats in Congress is hypocritical and shows a lack of perspective.

Federal prosecutors in Philadelphia and Detroit, appointed by Gerald Ford, were removed before their four-year terms were up by the Jimmy Carter administration because they annoyed local Democratic politicians. Neither Carter nor his attorney general, Griffin Bell, had to face charges of obstruction of justice or prolonged harangues in Congress. Perhaps this is because Congress was controlled by the Democrats at the time.

The president has a political problem because Justice Department officials bungled the firings. But it should be seen as just that -- a political problem, not a major crisis.
These cut and pastes to prove my point with facts ala Host should do the trick.

And Will would you like to show me what good Bell did?

The_Jazz 04-21-2007 08:24 AM

And now I have a reason to love my high speed scroll wheel.

Just kidding. Interesting stuff Mike, but I still think that it's apples and oranges. For one thing, Carter was still breathing the fumes of Watergate.

dc_dux 04-21-2007 08:37 AM

Two important facts left out of your links, mike.

Griffin Bell did testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee about the firing of Marston.

And of those US attorneys who left office between 1981 and 2006, most left volutarily. Only 10 left office involunarily (ie fired)....three were fired for improper or criminal,behavior. So seven were fired for questionable reasons in 25 years...and Bush fires 8 in one day. That difference, in and of itself, would raise reasonable questions....and add the conflicting and changing reasons given by both DOJ and the WH for the firing, and you have more justification for hearings.

Again, it was not the firing...it was the lying after the fact, including impugning the reputations of those attorneys by saying the firings were performance related.

reconmike 04-21-2007 12:05 PM

DC, Slick Willie fired ALL the US attorneys when he took office,

Quote:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...50/ai_21123146 In the history of the Republic, the names of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno will be forever linked, a prospect that ought to appall Miss Reno. That is entirely due to her efforts to preserve the President from his own follies, to use a polite word. Bill Clinton heads what is probably the most corrupt Administration ever, while Miss Reno has been called the worst of all Clinton's Cabinet appointments. From his point of view, of course, she may be the best, which comes to much the same thing.

Miss Reno's only visible qualifications for the post of attorney general were two: she is a woman and she had been a prosecutor. The first characteristic was indisputable, although, in any non-feminized era, it would have been irrelevant. The second seemed heartening, but it did not prepare her for Washington. Coming from obscurity, she must have been caught off guard by the rampant corruption into which she was thrust. So varied and unceasing have been this Administration's infractions of law that Miss Reno resembles a desperate tennis player, running from side to side of the court and from net to baseline in a frantic effort to hold down the score. Unfortunately for her White House coach, she is becoming winded and wobbly-legged.

She was not in charge from the beginning. Upon taking office, in an unexplained departure from the practice of recent Administrations, Miss Reno suddenly fired all 93 U.S. attorneys. She said the decision had been made in conjunction with the White House. Translation: The President ordered it. Just as the best place to hide a body is on a battlefield, the best way to be rid of one potentially troublesome attorney is to fire all of them. The U.S. attorney in Little Rock was replaced by a Clinton protege. The long-running Waco emergency that culminated in the deaths of eighty Branch Davidian men, women, and children again proved that Janet Reno was not in charge in the Justice Department. Webster Hubbell, Hillary's former law partner in Little Rock and Bill's man at Justice, coordinated tactics with the White House. The President did not even talk to his attorney general throughout the crisis.

Willravel 04-21-2007 12:08 PM

Mike, they all do. This was clearly different.

reconmike 04-21-2007 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
Mike, they all do. This was clearly different.

The only difference is that these attorneys were fired because they didn't tow the president's agenda, there is nothing wrong or illegal with doing that.

If the president wants illegal immigration or the death penalty prosectuted
by HIS US attorney and he does't get it, then it is within his right to fire them.

Willravel 04-21-2007 12:58 PM

Did Bell lie about his involvement? Did Clinton lie about his?

trickyy 04-21-2007 02:52 PM

gonzales is in trouble not because of the firings (although even he admits that the firings were a disaster) but because he can't answer simple questions

Elphaba 04-21-2007 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I like this one. I'd like to ask Rummy, Cheney and even Bush that same thing. Evil or stupid?

I found this reference to the "Bushies" today: "Mayberry Machiavellis" :thumbsup:

host 04-21-2007 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike
The only difference is that these attorneys were fired because they didn't tow the president's agenda, there is nothing wrong or illegal with doing that.

If the president wants illegal immigration or the death penalty prosectuted
by HIS US attorney and he does't get it, then it is within his right to fire them.

reconmike....can you come up with a serious question to ask General Gonzales?
You impress me as being a patriotic American.....but I posted detailed accounts of multiple incidents.....irrefutable evidence (you didn't....haven't ever refuted it....) that both the POTUS and the VP lied over and over.....since late 2002....Bush as recently as last Sept....and Cheney as recently as this month.....that Saddam's relationship with al Q'aida....and specifically with al Zarqawi....was justification for invading and occupying Iraq. I've showed that they both lied about that....and I posted on this thread the exchange between Gonzales and Sen. Schumer concerning the fact that US Attorney Carol Lam was fired without ever being told by anyone at DOJ what her performance deficiencies were.....

Cqrol Lam prosecuted Randy Cunningham and she brought indictments qgainst CIA's #3 Dusty Foggo and his best friend and Cunningham briber Wilkes and cobriber Mitchell Wade. Cqrol Lam was...when she was fired.....investigating Jerry Lewis...the chairman of the congressional committee dealing with defense appropriations that Randy Cunningham served on.....when he was indicted.....details are here:
www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/cats/jerry_lewis/

mike....so far....you've reacted by posting a scroll joke concerning the length of my last post....but no comment about it's damning material about the two leaders who I presume you defend in your last post.....

I ask you and Gonzales the same question now.....was Cunningham acting like a traitor in a time of war? Why was it more important to impede Carol Lam's investigation of the full extent of the crimes of those associated with Cunningham's crimes...?.

aceventura3 04-22-2007 02:26 PM

Mr. Gonzales we all know you serve at the pleasure of the President, that you have stated that you will not resign unless it is at the request of the President, a President by the way not running for re-election, that you have violated no law, and that we are basically wasting everyone's time, was this whole thing some evil genious kinda scheme concocted by the White House to get Congress focus on a trivial matter rather than the serious business Congress has been entrusted to conduct?

dc_dux 04-22-2007 03:44 PM

ace.... Congress has been entrusted with many roles - the most important being enacting legsislation, authorizing the allocation and expenditure of funds to run the goverment AND overseeing the actions and administration of the executive branch (the foundation of our system of check and balances).

why dont you think Congress can multi-task? This 110th Congress has been very active in enacting new legislation.

Why do you and Mike continue to believe that a law must be broken in order for Congress to fufill its oversight responsibility? Why do you believe its a trivial matter and a waste of time and money to ensure that the DoJ is managed competently and honestly?

Here is what Norm Orstein of the American Enterprise Institute said about Congressional oversight:
Quote:

Congressional oversight is meant to keep mistakes from happening or from spiraling out of control; it helps draw out lessons from catastrophes in order to prevent them, or others like them, from recurring. Good oversight cuts waste, punishes fraud or scandal, and keeps policymakers on their toes. The task is not easy. Examining a department or agency, its personnel, and its implementation policies is time-consuming. Investigating possible scandals can easily lapse into a partisan exercise that ignores broad policy issues for the sake of cheap publicity. (both parties have expressed outrage at the incompetence of the AG)
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/200611...hecks-out.html
Were we really better off under the last Congress, which completed abrigated its oversight responsibilities?

debaser 04-22-2007 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
If you could grill Gozales, what would you ask?

Where is the salt?

reconmike 04-22-2007 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace.... Congress has been entrusted with many roles - the most important being enacting legsislation, authorizing the allocation and expenditure of funds to run the goverment AND overseeing the actions and administration of the executive branch (the foundation of our system of check and balances).

why dont you think Congress can multi-task? This 110th Congress has been very active in enacting new legislation.

Why do you and Mike continue to believe that a law must be broken in order for Congress to fufill its oversight responsibility? Why do you believe its a trivial matter and a waste of time and money to ensure that the DoJ is managed competently and honestly?

Here is what Norm Orstein of the American Enterprise Institute said about Congressional oversight:

Were we really better off under the last Congress, which completed abrigated its oversight responsibilities?


DC, I understand that it is Congress' responsibility to oversee, but Host continues to post as if Carol Lams firing was something illegal, and it was not,
she was not prosecuting they way her EMPLOYERS want her to.

Host this is a thread about the attorney general, not Bush and his VP, what they said about Iraq, or how the VP is hung like a horse.

And Sen. Schumer is a jack ass, I have the displeasure of having to see his puss on my local news constantly.

And to answer your questions, no Cunningham was not acting like a traitor, he was acting like a thief.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the investigation of Cunninghams cronies is still happening without the precious Lam.

Willravel 04-22-2007 05:14 PM

I don't see anywhere in this thread where Host said th firings were illegal. He called the war illegal, and I wholeheartedly agree with that, but I don't see it.

reconmike 04-22-2007 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I don't see anywhere in this thread where Host said th firings were illegal. He called the war illegal, and I wholeheartedly agree with that, but I don't see it.

Will, it might not be in this thread, but I am certian he has said it in one of his 400 Lam posts, I will find it, it might take me 3 months to reread through all his posts but its there.

And Will I said Host is posting AS IF Lams firing was illegal.

And for the war being illegal all I'll say is UN resolution 1441.

dc_dux 04-22-2007 05:43 PM

Quote:

DC, I understand that it is Congress' responsibility to oversee, but Host continues to post as if Carol Lams firing was something illegal, and it was not,
she was not prosecuting they way her EMPLOYERS want her to.
Mike...you can understand why it raises questions when Gonzales (and the WH) said Lam was fired for not being tough enough on immigration...when 8 months earlier, she received a letter of commendation from the US Customs and Border Protection:
Quote:

"In support of CBP referrals for prosecution, your office maintains a 100% acceptance rate of criminal cases, while staunchly refusing to reduce felony charges to misdomeanors...
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/doc...?resultpage=1&
It was like saying David Ignatius was fired because of his frequent absences from the office...when those absences were due to his commitments as an officer in the Navy Reserve.

If Bush had simply said, they are fired because I say so...there would have a short-lived firestorm. Its the lies, the conflicting stories, the faulty memories, etc and further examples of political influence in the judicial process by the WH that keep this alive.

Quote:

And Sen. Schumer is a jack ass
I think Orin Hatch is a jackass...but that has nothing to do with the need for oversight hearings on this DoJ fiasco.

Willravel 04-22-2007 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike
And for the war being illegal all I'll say is UN resolution 1441.

Oh, don't worry about that. I've already proven that the war is illegal.

I know you said 'as if', which is a sign of a red herring and strawman.

host 04-22-2007 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reconmike
Will, it might not be in this thread, but I am certian he has said it in one of his 400 Lam posts, I will find it, it might take me 3 months to reread through all his posts but its there.

And Will I said Host is posting AS IF Lams firing was illegal.

And for the war being illegal all I'll say is UN resolution 1441.

reconmike, I hold the opposite opinion of yours, with regard to both the crimes of Randy Cunningham, during a time that your president describes as a "long war"....a period when president Bush uses "war time" as an excuse to usurp extraordinary powers explicitly denied the executive in the plain wording of our US Constitution, and also with regard to the crimes against humanity of pre-emptive war....undertaken in clear violation of international law, and the treaty that organized the UN, and in contradiction to the principles that the US stated in 1945 were the foundation for the prosecutions of the Nazi aggressors at Nuremberg.....and...I have "the goods" to support my argument.....what can you post in support of yours?

I would ask General Gonzales why he not only authorized the firing of Randy Cunningham prosecutor Carol Lam, in view of the following, stated by the DOJ's own prosecutor, and did not demand that Cunningham be prosecuted for the crime of treason, and thus....will be allowed to draw a pension for his 21 year tenure of "service" to the US government....and I would ask Gonzales what he could say to the esteemed former Nuremberg prosecutor and senior expert on international law and the crime of pre-emptive war, to counter Ferencz's argument that implicates Gonzales in the same crimes against humanity with which Ferencz implicates Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair.

I would specifically ask Gonzales for his reaction to this....from the article linked below, by Ben Ferencz....how did Gonzales, with his background as a Texas Judge and counsel to governor and then president Bush, presume to know that this expert was incorrect in her judgment....and for that matter, how do you presume to know this, too....reconmike?:
Quote:

http://www.benferencz.org/arts/83.html
The Legality of the Iraq War

....Elizabeth Wilmshurst, resigned. Her letter of resignation, after more than 30 years of service, stated: "I regret that I cannot agree that it is lawful to use force against Iraq without a second Security Council resolution..." She had, for many years, represented the UK at meetings of the UN preparatory committees for an international criminal court and was recognized as one of the foremost experts on the subject of aggression. Her letter stated..."an unlawful use of force on such a scale amounts to the crime of aggression; nor can I agree with such action in circumstances that are so detrimental to the international order and the rule of law."......
Quote:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006...2_463_2_01.txt
Last modified Saturday, March 4, 2006 9:30 PM PST
North County congressman avoids maximum sentence

By: Mark Walker, William Finn Bennett and Teri Figueroa - Staff Writers

......"He agrees his conduct is a violation of the public trust and his sentence should be severe enough to send a message," Blalack said.

But prosecutor Forge said Cunningham deserved the maximum sentence because of the five years he took bribes starting in 2000.

"He committed crime after crime because he wanted more."

<h3>Assistant U.S. Attorney Phillip Halpern argued that Cunningham effectively turned two "insignificant businessmen" into major defense contractors with Pentagon work that wasn't necessary and took money from other vital defense programs.</h3>

"The defendant sold out his office," Halpern said.

The two contractors he referred to were defense firm founder Mitchell Wade of Washington's MZM Inc., and Brent Wilkes, owner of a Poway defense firm called ADCS. Wade pleaded guilty to bribery and election fraud a week ago and faces 11 years in prison. Wilkes remains under investigation, as does New York developer Thomas Kontogiannis and his son-in-law, John T. Michael.

Prosecutors point to menu


At one point during his address, Halpern waved a plastic evidence envelope containing the "bribe menu" that Cunningham used to lay out his price for securing Pentagon work for the defense contractors.

"It was this memorandum that memorialized the price of betrayal," Halpern said. "He failed to put the nation's interests ahead of his own greed."

In responding to Cunningham's statement that he had made a wrong turn, Burns said it was much more.

"It wasn't a one-time lapse," the judge said to Cunningham. "It wasn't a one time U-turn. You made a U-turn and kept going for five years."

Outside the courthouse after the sentencing, Rick Gwin, special agent in charge of the Pentagon's Defense Criminal Investigative Service western regional office, said that he is not convinced Cunningham has been fully cooperating with the ongoing investigation.

"I don't know that we are necessarily getting all the cooperation we should from him," Gwin said. "Maybe once he is sitting in a jail cell we will get more cooperation."

Blalack said he is hopeful that further cooperation with federal investigators may result in a reduction in the prison sentence. The federal prison system allows only 54 days credit per year for good behavior. Assuming he earns good-behavior credit and there is no further reduction in his sentence, Cunningham will have to serve seven years and one month.

As he left the courthouse, Congressman Hunter said he continues to worry about Cunningham and his family.

"I was here as Duke's friend," Hunter said. "Our job now is to help his family make sure Duke stays alive."

'Sad but well-deserved'


Prosecutors were less merciful.

Speaking to reporters in front of a bank of microphones after the sentencing, Forge said he hoped the prison term would help restore public confidence in elected officials.

"Frankly, today's sentencing is a sad but well-deserved end to Mr. Cunningham's career," Forge said.

Once investigators discovered the bribe menu, which Forge cited as his most "flagrant act," prosecutors said they knew Cunningham's fate was sealed.........
reconmike....this is the background of some of what was occuring while Cunningham was doing what was highlighted in large bold letters in the preceding quote box:
Quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in652491.shtml
GIs Lack Armor, Radios, Bullets
What About The Troops, Asks 60 Minute's Steve Kroft
Oct. 31, 2004

......<b>The Army acknowledged to 60 Minutes that there is a shortage of radios in Iraq and a shortage of bullets for training, and says both are in the process of being remedied. There have also been problems with maintenance and replacement parts for critical equipment like Abrams tanks, Bradley personnel carriers and Black Hawk helicopters.</b>

Winslow Wheeler, a long time Capitol Hill staffer who spent years writing and reviewing defense appropriations bills, thinks he knows one reason why those shortages exist, after looking at the current Defense budget. Army accounts that pay for training, maintenance and repairs are being raided by Congress to pay for pork-barrel spending.

Wheeler says $2.8 billion that was earmarked for operations and maintenance to support U.S. troops has been used to "pay the pork bill."

Wheeler, who has written a book called "The Wastrels of Defense," says congressmen routinely hide billions of dollars in pet projects in the defense bill........
Quote:

http://www.benferencz.org/arts/83.html
The Legality of the Iraq War

The following essay was written by Ben Ferencz a few days after the secret information contained therein became public. Since the American Society for International Law had published a comprehensive scholarly review of the legal issues as seen from various perspectives, Ferencz submitted his essay, on April 10, 2005.....

.....On August 3, 2002, UK military spokesmen briefed the Pentagon and US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the status of UK's preparation. The next day they briefed President Bush. Coordinated plans for the attack on Iraq continued, despite a reported private statement by Britain's Foreign Secretary Straw that "Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran." His legal advisers in the Foreign Office had submitted a Confidential 8-page memorandum casting doubt on whether Security Council (SC) resolutions 678 (1990) or 687 (1991), that had authorized members "to use all necessary means" to restore peace in the area" could justify the forceful invasion of Iraq.

Straw made the interesting point that if the SC would again demand that Saddam allow UN inspectors to confirm that he had complied with earlier resolutions to destroy his WMD and, if the inspectors discovered that he had failed to do so, that might justify a renewed use of force. A refusal to accept inspection would also be politically helpful to justify the invasion. The best that could be achieved, however, was SC Res. 1441 of November 8, 2002, again demanding that Iraq disarm and allow UN inspectors to report back within 30 days. The Resolution ''recalled" that Iraq had repeatedly been warned that it would "face serious consequences as a result of its violations". The "decision" taken by the Council was to "await further reports" and then "to consider the situation." Troops were being mobilized for a combined massive military assault but there was still no clear agreement on the legal justification for such action.

<b>On February 11, 2003. Attorney General Lord Goldsmith went to Washington where he conferred with leading lawyers in the Bush administration - including White House lawyer Alberto Gonzales</b>, State Department Legal Adviser William Taft IV, Jim Haynes, Adviser for the Defense Department and US Attorney General, John Ashcroft. A 13- page memo by Lord Goldsmith dated March 7, 2003, still expressed doubts about the legality of the contemplated assault on Iraq but seemed to be softer than the firm stand taken by him at the meeting of July 23, 2002.

Ten days later, on March 17, 2003, and just two days before the war was scheduled to begin, Goldsmith made a summary statement in Parliament in which he noted that a reasonable case could be made "for war without a Security Council resolution." William Taft IV is reported to have commented that the Goldsmith statement "sounded very familiar" - presumably because it echoed the US position.

In his report to his Prime Minister, Goldsmith wrote: " I remain of the opinion that the safest legal course would be to secure the adoption of a further resolution to authorize the use of force...nevertheless, having regard to the information on the negotiating history, which I have been given, and to the arguments which I heard in Washington, I accept that a reasonable case can be made that Resolution 1441 is capable in principle of reviving the authorization in 678 without a further resolution." He noted that such an argument could only be sustainable if there was clear evidence of non-compliance and non-cooperation by Iraq. These qualifying conditions were not mentioned in the 1-page summary given to the Cabinet on March 17.

UK military leaders had been calling for clear assurances that the war was legal under international law. They were very mindful that the treaty creating a new International Criminal Court in the Hague had entered into force on July 1, 2002, with full support of the British government. General Sir Mike Jackson, chief of the defense staff, was quoted as saying "I spent a good deal of time recently in the Balkans making sure Milosevic was put behind bars. I have no intention of ending up in the next cell to him in the Hague." On the eve of war, the British Attorney General's abbreviated statement of March 17 was accepted as legal approval of the official US/UK line. Not everyone in the British government could agree that the war that was about to begin was legal.

Prime Minister Blair chose to rely on the summary opinion of his Attorney General rather than the views of the Foreign Office which, ordinarily, would be responsible for opinions affecting foreign relations and international law. On March 18, 2003, the Deputy Legal Adviser to the Foreign Ministry, Elizabeth Wilmshurst, resigned. Her letter of resignation, after more than 30 years of service, stated: "I regret that I cannot agree that it is lawful to use force against Iraq without a second Security Council resolution..." She had, for many years, represented the UK at meetings of the UN preparatory committees for an international criminal court and was recognized as one of the foremost experts on the subject of aggression. Her letter stated..."an unlawful use of force on such a scale amounts to the crime of aggression; nor can I agree with such action in circumstances that are so detrimental to the international order and the rule of law."

Elizabeth Wilmshurst remembered that the Nuremberg trials had condemned aggressive war as "the supreme international crime" That decision had been affirmed by the UN General Assembly and followed in many other cases. She demonstrated Professor Tom Franck's concluding appeal in the 2003 Agora that "lawyers should zealously guard their professional integrity for a time when it can again be used in the service of the common weal."

Benjamin B. Ferencz
A former Nuremberg Prosecutor
J.D. Harvard (1943).....
Quote:

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/38604/
Could Bush Be Prosecuted for War Crimes?

By Jan Frel, AlterNet. Posted July 10, 2006.

......Perhaps no person on the planet is better equipped to identify and describe our crimes in Iraq than Benjamin Ferencz, a former chief prosecutor of the Nuremberg Trials who successfully convicted 22 Nazi officers for their work in orchestrating death squads that killed more than one million people in the famous Einsatzgruppen Case. Ferencz, now 87, has gone on to become a founding father of the basis behind international law regarding war crimes, and his essays and legal work drawing from the Nuremberg trials and later the commission that established the International Criminal Court remain a lasting influence in that realm.

Ferencz's biggest contribution to the war crimes field is his assertion that an unprovoked or "aggressive" war is the highest crime against mankind. It was the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 that made possible the horrors of Abu Ghraib, the destruction of Fallouja and Ramadi, the tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, civilian massacres like Haditha, and on and on. Ferencz believes that a "prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity, that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation."

Interviewed from his home in New York, Ferencz laid out a simple summary of the case:

"The United Nations charter has a provision which was agreed to by the United States formulated by the United States in fact, after World War II. Its says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council. They can use force in connection with self-defense, but a country can't use force in anticipation of self-defense. Regarding Iraq, the last Security Council resolution essentially said, 'Look, send the weapons inspectors out to Iraq, have them come back and tell us what they've found -- then we'll figure out what we're going to do. <b>The U.S. was impatient, and decided to invade Iraq -- which was all pre-arranged of course. So, the United States went to war, in violation of the charter."........</b>

aceventura3 04-23-2007 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace.... Congress has been entrusted with many roles - the most important being enacting legsislation, authorizing the allocation and expenditure of funds to run the goverment AND overseeing the actions and administration of the executive branch (the foundation of our system of check and balances).

why dont you think Congress can multi-task? This 110th Congress has been very active in enacting new legislation.

Why do you and Mike continue to believe that a law must be broken in order for Congress to fufill its oversight responsibility? Why do you believe its a trivial matter and a waste of time and money to ensure that the DoJ is managed competently and honestly?

Here is what Norm Orstein of the American Enterprise Institute said about Congressional oversight:

Were we really better off under the last Congress, which completed abrigated its oversight responsibilities?

If I were to rank what I thought were the top 100 priorities for Congress this issue would not make the list.

When Repblicans had a majority they wasted the opportunity, now Democrats seem to be doing the same.

I have no problem with the Congressional role of oversight, in this situation we knew early Gonzales "misspoke" or "lied", nothing new has come out or will come out. And even if it did, the President has the right to terminate the political appointments. This matter could have been investigated and handled out of the spot light in a matter of days by staff.

host 04-23-2007 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
If I were to rank what I thought were the top 100 priorities for Congress this issue would not make the list.

When Repblicans had a majority they wasted the opportunity, now Democrats seem to be doing the same.

I have no problem with the Congressional role of oversight, in this situation we knew early Gonzales "misspoke" or "lied", nothing new has come out or will come out. And even if it did, the President has the right to terminate the political appointments. This matter could have been investigated and handled out of the spot light in a matter of days by staff.

ace.....my latest post in the "It's Both Parties" thread lines up nicely, next to your last post here. Do you really think that you can simply "rank" the inquiry into Gonzales's misleading statements, lies and obfuscation, as insignifigant, and have any credibility?

I don't know about you (after reading your last post.....I really don't know about you......)....but I do my best to make and support my argument......
Do you think you've done that by posting;
Quote:

.....If I were to rank what I thought were the top 100 priorities for Congress this issue would not make the list.....
With everybody from Bob Ney, to Doolittle's wife, Delay's pastor, Ed Buckham,
and even folks in the VP's office who gave Cunningham briber, Mitchell Wade,
his first government contract, "on board" the "train wreck" for republicans that is coming as a result of fired US Attorney, Carol Lam's prosecution of Randy Cunningham, and her subsequent investigations and indictment of CIA #3, Kyle Foggo.....with nothing posted to support your conclusion, you....ace, post that "there is nothing to see here".....case closed....

Uh-huh.....

aceventura3 04-23-2007 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace.....my latest post in the "It's Both Parties" thread lines up nicely, next to your last post here. Do you really think that you can simply "rank" the inquiry into Gonzales's misleading statements, lies and obfuscation, as insignifigant, and have any credibility?

Yes.

Quote:

I don't know about you (after reading your last post.....I really don't know about you......)....but I do my best to make and support my argument......
Do you think you've done that by posting;

With everybody from Bob Ney, to Doolittle's wife, Delay's pastor, Ed Buckham,
and even folks in the VP's office who gave Cunningham briber, Mitchell Wade,
his first government contract, "on board" the "train wreck" for republicans that is coming as a result of fired US Attorney, Carol Lam's prosecution of Randy Cunningham, and her subsequent investigations and indictment of CIA #3, Kyle Foggo.....with nothing posted to support your conclusion, you....ace, post that "there is nothing to see here".....case closed....

Uh-huh.....
Host,

I have the ablility to look at information and data and form my own views. I almost never blindly quote the views of others. As you know my ego is pretty big, generally I often think my analysis and the opinions I form are more logical an well thought-out than many of the experts you often rely on to support the views other experts have planted in your mind.

dc_dux 04-23-2007 06:26 AM

ace...these oversight hearings have revealed much more than just the lying and incompetence by Gonzales et al with the firings of the US Attorneys.

Most disturbing to me was the revelation that the Bush administration has completely dismantled the firewall between the WH and DOJ regarding pending criminal cases.

Under Clinton, only 4 WH officials (Pres, VP, WH Counsel and WH Dep. Counsel) could speak or have contact with only 3 DOJ officials (AG, Asst AG, Dep, AG) regarding pending or potential criminal cases to help ensure that there was not undue political influence on those cases.

It was revealed at the hearings that the current WH policy allows over 400 political hacks in the EOP (executive office of the pres) to have contact with more than 30 political appointess at DOJ.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hart040707.jpg

It is issues like this that come out in oversight hearings.

I think it is important for the American people to know about such policy shifts that, IMO, should be questioned by anyone concerned with having safeguards against political influences in the judicial process.

aceventura3 04-23-2007 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace...these oversight hearings have revealed much more than just the lying and incompetence by Gonzales et al with the firings of the US Attorneys.

Most disturbing to me was the revelation that the Bush administration has completely dismantled the firewall between the WH and DOJ regarding pending criminal cases.

Under Clinton, only 4 WH officials (Pres, VP, WH Counsel and WH Dep. Counsel) could speak or have contact with only 3 DOJ officials (AG, Asst AG, Dep, AG) to help ensure that there was not undue political influence on criminal cases.

It was revealed at the hearings that the current WH policy allows over 400 political hacks in the EOP (executive office of the pres) to have contact with more than 30 political appointess at DOJ.

[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hart040707.jpg[/IMG]

I think this is important for the American people to know and a policy that should be questioned by anyone concerned with having safeguards against political influences in the judicial process.

That is certainly interesting. However, the number of people in the EOP having contact with appointees at DOJ does not directly correlate to the amount of political pressure. I could argue that one person can inappropriately excert more political pressure than 300.

Just for kicks can you admit that Congress is milking this issue at least a little more than they need to? Would this issue make your list of the top 100 priorities for Congress?

dc_dux 04-23-2007 06:48 AM

Gonazles' response when this was revealed by Sen. Whitehouse was:
"I do recall being concerned about that as White House counsel.”
If Congress hadnt "milked it," it is unlikely that this would have surfaced. I obviously think this is more serious than you or Gonzales (who, although "concerned", hasnt done anything about it since moving from WH counsel to AG).

As far as my priorities list...I would have a list of "legislative priorities" and a list of "oversight" priorities, recognizing that Congress can and should do both. Oversight of the DOJ to ensure that our chief law enforcement agency is acting competently and credibly and without undue political influence would certainly be among my top 100 "oversight" priorities.

host 04-23-2007 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
<b>......Just for kicks can you admit that Congress is milking this issue at least a little more than they need to?</b> Would this issue make your list of the top 100 priorities for Congress?

Absolutely not, ace.....and at least your ego does not discourage you from "reducing yourself" to a level where you can still participate here.....that's a good thing, IMO......

ace....my justification for "knowing" that this is the most important congressional investigation, needs to go no further than to comment on what has happened to the two lead prosecutors investigating Cunningham bribers Brett Wilkes, and Mitchell Wade.....

Carol Lam was fired, and both Gonzales and his COS, Kyle Sampson, admit under oath, that she was never apprised, before she was fired for not "bringing enough" immigrations violations prosecutions, by any DOJ official.

Deborah Yang, LA US Attorney, brought about the investigation of Jerry Lewis, Cunningham's superior on the congressional appropriations committee where Cunningham sold his information and influence of his office to Wilkes and Wade, and admitted doing so in his plea deal from Carol Lam....then resigned and is now working at the law firm that is defending Jerry Lewis, serving on the oversight committee there with Ted Olson, probably the most unscrupulous and rabidly partisan legal "fixer" in the senior level of republican "operatives".....a man reported to be under consideration by the Bush admin. to replace Gonzales....

This mess begs....no....it screams to be investigated.....isn't that right....Mr. Gonzales ???

aceventura3 04-23-2007 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Gonazles' response when this was revealed by Sen. Whitehouse was:
"I do recall being concerned about that as White House counsel.”
If Congress hadnt "milked it," it is unlikely that this would have surfaced. I obviously think this is more serious than you or Gonzales (who, although "concerned", hasnt done anything about it since moving from WH counsel to AG).

You pretty much ignored the point. So I will point out the point again. What if the White House gave authority to the White House janitor to contact appointed members of DOJ making the number 301, in terms of political pressure what would the difference between 300 and 301 be? I think zero.

Quote:

As far as my priorities list...I would have a list of "legislative priorities" and a list of "oversight" priorities, recognizing that Congress can and should do both. Oversight of the DOJ to ensure that our chief law enforcement agency is acting competently and credibly and without undue political influence would certainly be among my top 100 "oversight" priorities.
Again, this matter could have been handled in a matter of days, not months and by staff. As a Washington insider I am sure you can tell us endless stories across every administration about the incompetence of political appointees. Political appontees almost never have real credibility going in, the real work gets done by career staff people - including DOJ. Congress is acting like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

Quote:


Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

"What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.

"Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/t...windmills.html

Host, thats for you - to support the tilting thing - since credibility on an anonymous board is oh so important to me.

Willravel 04-23-2007 09:49 AM

He should be tried for treason. All the evidence we need is the torture memo. While I agree that what Gonzales did with the US attorneys was absolutely wrong and was a clear indicator of his lackey status and his willingness to do anything to protect the monkey in the oval office, it's not the worst thing he's done by far.

dc_dux 04-23-2007 09:50 AM

Quote:

You pretty much ignored the point. So I will point out the point again. What if the White House gave authority to the White House janitor to contact appointed members of DOJ making the number 301, in terms of political pressure what would the difference between 300 and 301 be? I think zero.
Ace...its actually 412 EOP political employees as opposed to 4 previously. You dont think this increases the opportunity and potential for undue political inflluence by the WH on pending criminal cases?

Quote:

Again, this matter could have been handled in a matter of days, not months and by staff.
It could have been handled much more quickly if DoJ (and the WH) had been more cooperative.

We obviously differ on the value of Congressional oversight and what we see as legitimate versus "grandstanding and "milking" and "tilting".

loquitur 04-23-2007 10:03 AM

The most revealing thing to me in all this has been what a lightweight Gonzalez is. He has all the gravitas of foam rubber.

I say, get Chertoff in there and let Gonzalez go on a looooooooooong furlough.

aceventura3 04-23-2007 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Ace...its actually 412 EOP political employees as opposed to 4 previously. You dont think this increases the opportunity and potential for undue political inflluence by the WH on pending criminal cases?

No. I also assume some people have the ability to not compromise their principles.


Quote:

It could have been handled much more quickly if DoJ (and the WH) had been more cooperative.
True.

Quote:

We obviously differ on the value of Congressional oversight and what we see as legitimate versus "grandstanding and "milking" and "tilting".
we don't disagree on the Congressional role of oversight, we disagree on the role Congress is taking on this issue.

loquitur 04-23-2007 10:28 AM

Just because I am dismissive of Gonzalez doesn't mean I think Congress is doing itself any great credit here. This whole "investigation" has one of the highest noise to substance ratios I have seen in a long time.

trickyy 04-23-2007 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Congress is milking this issue

this is what i originally thought before i started looking at the details. then i heard gonzales testify on Thursday and he removed all doubt that there are very serious problems.

gonzales could/should have easily explained the situation. i agreed with the people who said we should "hear him out"

but his convenient "forgetfulness" when confronted with questionable emails, memos, meeting information, etc., combined with several "misstatements" and overall poor management skills should be of concern to anyone with resonable standards for the notion of Justice (rememeber that is what he is supposed to represent).

if this issue not a big deal, why does he obviously have something to hide? it seems as though he twists the truth when convenient ("I don't recall...") ... is a person lacking honesty someone we want leading the primary department of Law and Order in the country? or would you call him an honest man?

loquitur 04-23-2007 10:47 AM

........... or it could just be that he is as inattentive and heedless as he seems. In which case he is a friggin' incompetent rather than a fraudster.

host 04-23-2007 10:52 AM

dc_dux, you and I post well documented arguments, complete with visuals, footnotes, links......and the response is that they "feel" that we are incorrect, and that they are "spot on"....but they offer nothing to enlighten us....mostly they just feed us our own quotes, with one sentence responses....not very convincing......

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
The most revealing thing to me in all this has been what a lightweight Gonzalez is. He has all the gravitas of foam rubber.

I say, get Chertoff in there and let Gonzalez go on a looooooooooong furlough.

I say.....your advocacy for Chertoff belies why you and I do not even speak the same language....

Chertoff....Whitewater pitbull, the man who made the decision to prosecute Arthur Anderson over the Enron fraud.....the result was the destruction of an accounting firm that had employed 26,000....Chertoff got his conviction, it was overturned on appeal, the government did not retry Arthur Anderson....thanks to Chertoff's misguided prosecution, Anderson had ceased to exist....

....and there's more....nepotism, nazism, NOLA....incompetence, lies......loquitur, tell us what you most admire about Michael Chertoff:
Quote:

http://www.counterpunch.org/barry04012005.html

....."Keep your eye on Michael Chertoff," warned Elaine Cassel in June 2003 when Chertoff was appointed to the court of appeals. Cassel, an attorney who writes for Civil Liberties Watch, observed: "As bad for the law and Constitution as many of Bush's judicial appointments are, Chertoff has been the architect of prosecutions in the 'war on terror.' And he may have big changes in mind for you, me, the courts, and the Constitution.".........
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091901930.html
Immigration Nominee's Credentials Questioned

By Dan Eggen and Spencer S. Hsu
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, September 20, 2005; Page A01

The Bush administration is seeking to appoint a lawyer with little immigration or customs experience to head the troubled law enforcement agency that handles those issues, prompting sharp criticism from some employee groups, immigration advocates and homeland security experts.

The push to appoint Julie Myers to head the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, part of the Department of Homeland Security, comes in the midst of intense debate over the qualifications of department political appointees involved in the sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina......

...Her uncle is Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, the departing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. <H3>She married Chertoff's current chief of staff, John F. Wood, on Saturday......</H3>
Quote:

The Boston Globe

Democrats rap picks by Bush as partisan

By Wayne Washington, Globe Staff, 6/18/2001

WASHINGTON - From the White House counsel's office to the Justice
Department, many of the plum legal jobs in the Bush administration are going
to attorneys who pursued scandal allegations against the Clinton
administration or served on the GOP legal team in the Florida recount.....

.....Michael Gerhardt, a William & Mary law school professor who has written
about presidential appointments, said the Bush administration has an
advantage over Democrats as it puts forward nominees.

''I'm not sure how many people in the country are aware of who these people
are,'' Gerhardt said.

In Washington, however, Democrats know them well.

There's Viet Dinh, who served as associate counsel for the Senate committee
that investigated Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that brought the
Clintons so much grief. Last year, Dinh also filed a brief that supported
arguments Bush's legal team was making during the Florida recount.

On the same day the Senate voted on Olson's nomination, Dinh was confirmed
as an assistant attorney general. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York
cast the lone vote against his confirmation.

Senator Clinton also cast the single vote against Michael Chertoff, Bush's
pick to lead the criminal division of the Justice Department. <B>Chertoff
worked with former senator Alfonse M. D'Amato, Republican of New York, as he
relentlessly pursued the Whitewater investigation.</B>

''Mr. Dinh and Mr. Chertoff were heavily involved in what I thought was a
misguided investigation,'' said Leahy, who voted for them nonetheless
because, he said, they were only following the orders of their congressional
bosses.

Brett Kavanaugh led independent counsel Kenneth Starr's investigation into
the death of Clinton aide Vince Foster, which spawned numerous conspiracy
theories about the president's role in various scandals. Bush appointed
Kavanaugh as associate White House counsel.
Quote:

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index....t/partone.html
AT FREEDOM'S EDGE: Liberty, security and the Patriot Act
PART ONE OF AN OCCASIONAL SERIES
Sunday, July 3, 2005
BY JOHN FARMER JR.

..... "There is no basis to believe the Patriot Act would have changed things," said David Cole, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and author of the book "Enemy Aliens: Double Standards and Constitutional Freedoms in the War on Terrorism."

"The problem was not that there was any legal barrier that forbade investigation or follow-up," Cole said in a recent interview. "The problem was that there never was sufficient investigation. People didn't connect the dots -- not because they couldn't, but because there were so many dots."

<B>Even Michael Chertoff, who was a driving force behind the creation of the Patriot Act</B> as director of the criminal division at the Justice Department, has expressed uncertainty about whether the act would have enabled the FBI to prevent the attacks during the weeks before 9/11.

"I don't think anybody is ever going to know the answer to that," Chertoff said during a March 6, 2002, panel discussion at Georgetown University, where he shared the dais with Cole. Chertoff, who today is secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, went on to say, however, that "I certainly think that had we had more information-sharing and analysis before September 11, the chances of averting it would have been greater." ........
Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/kat...off/index.html
Chertoff: Katrina scenario did not exist
However, experts for years had warned of threat to New Orleans

Monday, September 5, 2005; Posted: 2:55 p.m. EDT (18:55 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.

But in fact, government officials, scientists and journalists have warned of such a scenario for years.

Chertoff, fielding questions from reporters, said government officials did not expect both a powerful hurricane and a breach of levees that would flood the city of New Orleans. (See the video on a local paper's prophetic warning -- 3:30 )....
Quote:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=2&gl=us
Posted on Tue, Sep. 13, 2005


Chertoff delayed federal response, memo shows

By Jonathan S. Landay, Alison Young and Shannon McCaffrey
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - The federal official with the power to mobilize a massive federal response to Hurricane Katrina was Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, not the former FEMA chief who was relieved of his duties and resigned earlier this week, federal documents reviewed by Knight Ridder show.

Even before the storm struck the Gulf Coast, Chertoff could have ordered federal agencies into action without any request from state or local officials. Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown had only limited authority to do so until about 36 hours after the storm hit, when Chertoff designated him as the "principal federal official" in charge of the storm.

As thousands of hurricane victims went without food, water and shelter in the days after Katrina's early morning Aug. 29 landfall, critics assailed Brown for being responsible for delays that might have cost hundreds of lives.

But Chertoff - not Brown - was in charge of managing the national response to a catastrophic disaster, according to the National Response Plan, the federal government's blueprint for how agencies will handle major natural disasters or terrorist incidents. An order issued by President Bush in 2003 also assigned that responsibility to the homeland security director.

But according to a memo obtained by Knight Ridder, Chertoff didn't shift that power to Brown until late afternoon or evening on Aug. 30, about 36 hours after Katrina hit Louisiana and Mississippi. That same memo suggests that Chertoff may have been confused about his lead role in disaster response and that of his department.

"As you know, the President has established the `White House Task Force on Hurricane Katrina Response.' He will meet with us tomorrow to launch this effort. The Department of Homeland Security, along with other Departments, will be part of the task force and will assist the Administration with its response to Hurricane Katrina," Chertoff said in the memo to the secretaries of defense, health and human services and other key federal agencies.

On the day that Chertoff wrote the memo, Bush was in San Diego presiding over a ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II.

Chertoff's Aug. 30 memo for the first time declared Katrina an "Incident of National Significance," a key designation that triggers swift federal coordination. The following afternoon, Bush met with his Cabinet, then appeared before TV cameras in the White House Rose Garden to announce the government's planned action.

That same day, Aug. 31, the Department of Defense, whose troops and equipment are crucial in such large disasters, activated its Task Force Katrina. But active-duty troops didn't begin to arrive in large numbers along the Gulf Coast until Saturday.

White House and homeland security officials wouldn't explain why Chertoff waited some 36 hours to declare Katrina an incident of national significance and why he didn't immediately begin to direct the federal response from the moment on Aug. 27 when the National Hurricane Center predicted that Katrina would strike the Gulf Coast with catastrophic force in 48 hours. Nor would they explain why Bush felt the need to appoint a separate task force.

Chertoff's hesitation and Bush's creation of a task force both appear to contradict the National Response Plan and previous presidential directives that specify what the secretary of homeland security is assigned to do without further presidential orders. The goal of the National Response Plan is to provide a streamlined framework for swiftly delivering federal assistance when a disaster - caused by terrorists or Mother Nature - is too big for local officials to handle.

Dana Perino, a White House spokeswoman, referred most inquiries about the memo and Chertoff's actions to the Department of Homeland Security.

"There will be an after-action report" on the government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Perino said. She added that "Chertoff had the authority to invoke the Incident of National Significance, and he did it on Tuesday."

Perino said the creation of the White House task force didn't add another bureaucratic layer or delay the response to the devastating hurricane. "Absolutely not," she said. "I think it helped move things along." When asked whether the delay in issuing the Incident of National Significance was to allow Bush time to return to Washington, Perino replied: "Not that I'm aware of."

Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, didn't dispute that the National Response Plan put Chertoff in charge in federal response to a catastrophe. But he disputed that the bureaucracy got in the way of launching the federal response.

"There was a tremendous sense of urgency," Knocke said. "We were mobilizing the greatest response to a disaster in the nation's history."

Knocke noted that members of the Coast Guard were already in New Orleans performing rescues and FEMA personnel and supplies had been deployed to the region.

The Department of Homeland Security has refused repeated requests to provide details about Chertoff's schedule and said it couldn't say specifically when the department requested assistance from the military. Knocke said a military liaison was working with FEMA, but said he didn't know his or her name or rank. FEMA officials said they wouldn't provide information about the liaison.

Knocke said members of almost every federal agency had already been meeting as part of the department's Interagency Incident Management Group, which convened for the first time on the Friday before the hurricane struck. So it would be a mistake, he said, to interpret the memo as meaning that Tuesday, Aug. 30 was the first time that members of the federal government coordinated.

The Chertoff memo indicates that the response to Katrina wasn't left to disaster professionals, but was run out of the White House, said George Haddow, a former deputy chief of staff at FEMA during the Clinton administration and the co-author of an emergency management textbook.

"It shows that the president is running the disaster, the White House is running it as opposed to Brown or Chertoff," Haddow said. Brown "is a convenient fall guy. He's not the problem really. The problem is a system that was marginalized."

A former FEMA director under President Reagan expressed shock by the inaction that Chertoff's memo suggested. It showed that Chertoff "does not have a
full appreciation   click to show 


aceventura3 04-23-2007 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickyy
but his convenient "forgetfulness" when confronted with questionable emails, memos, meeting information, etc.,

I think I recall him saying that he did not want to give the appearance of obstructing the investigation by talking to his staff on the subject to clear up details. I am sure if he started asking his staff a bunch of questions about meetings, emails, etc. that would have a much bigger problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
dc_dux, you and I post well documented arguments, complete with visuals, footnotes, links......and the response is that they "feel" that we are incorrect, and that they are "spot on"....but they offer nothing to enlighten us....mostly they just feed us our own quotes, with one sentence responses....not very convincing......

The problem with your well documented arguments, complete with visuals, footnotes, links, etc., is in the failure to answer common sense fundemental questions.

Here is one - What good is going to come from all of this?

I say nothing, therefore Congress is basically wasting time and energy. The country faces monumental issues that will change the course of history, yet Congress goes through this excercise.

loquitur 04-23-2007 12:34 PM

Host, Chertoff was a highly respected Asst US Attorney in SDNY when I worked in the courthouse and was a highly respected US Attorney in NJ. He was a federal appeals judge on the Third Circuit. You do'nt like one of his decisions. Big whoop.

My point is that he has gravitas and is a serious guy. He is much more weighty Gonzalez. That was my whole point.

Host, the only person you would ever accept for any position is a Democrat.

dc_dux 04-23-2007 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

What good is going to come from all of this?

I say nothing, therefore Congress is basically wasting time and energy. The country faces monumental issues that will change the course of history, yet Congress goes through this excercise.

Ace....more competent, honest and accountable management of an important federal agency may not change the course of history, but it will make for better government and more public confidence in the federal criminal investigation/prosecution process.

The Senate bill passed several weeks ago to overturn the provision in the Patriot Act inserted at the request of the DoJ and by the Repub conference committtee (Dems were excluded) on the process of appointing interim attorneys is not historic, but a positive outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
dc_dux, you and I post well documented arguments, complete with visuals, footnotes, links......and the response is that they "feel" that we are incorrect, and that they are "spot on"....but they offer nothing to enlighten us....mostly they just feed us our own quotes, with one sentence responses....not very convincing......
I am also still waiting for an answer to the "common sense fundamental question" of why Gonazales felt the investigation of William Jefferson was more "unique" than the investigations of Cunningham and Ney that he would authorize raiding a Congressional office for the first time in the history of Congress. (link)

aceventura3 04-23-2007 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
More competent, honest and accountable management of an important federal agency may not change the course of history, but it will make for better government.

Pretty theoretical, but I think history shows polititians generally don't learn from past mistakes or the mistakes of others. Government will not be better or worse after this is all over, in my opinion.

Quote:

I am also still waiting for an answer to the "common sense fundamental question" of why Gonazales felt the investigation of William Jefferson was more "unique" than the investigations of Cunningham and Ney that he would authorize raiding a Congressional office for the first time in the history of Congress. (link)
Purely political. I am not saying that makes it right, it is wahat it is however. The Democrats with get revenge. this cycle is one of our major problems in Washington, don't you agree? Or, are you of the opinion there is no cycle of revenge or that it only goes one way?

dc_dux 04-23-2007 02:24 PM

Quote:

Pretty theoretical, but I think history shows polititians generally don't learn from past mistakes or the mistakes of others. Government will not be better or worse after this is all over, in my opinion.
Not theoretical at all. History shows that many politicians, in Congress or the WH/Exec branch, act more openly, honestly and responsibly, at least in the short-term, after they or former colleagues/predecessors are involved in highly publicized scandals.

Quote:

The Democrats with get revenge. this cycle is one of our major problems in Washington, don't you agree? Or, are you of the opinion there is no cycle of revenge or that it only goes one way?
Recent history suggests it goes more one way than the other.

Show me the Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush that approached the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton?

Will this new Congress be more like the Dems of the 80s or early 90s or the Repubs of the mid-late 90s....time will tell. I obviously have more confidence in the Dems than you. :). (You might also take another look at the "Its both parties" thread and my link to the K Street Project and show me a Dem Congress that approached that level of corruption and influence peddling.)

One thing is certain, they will not be as complacent and turning a blind eye to their oversight responsibility as the Repub Congress of 00-06..and I think that is good for the country...even if they resort to what some may call "grandstanding" to be heard above the right wing spinmeisters and bloggers.

aceventura3 04-23-2007 04:30 PM

I agree nothing I recall comes close to the Clinton affair (pardon the pun) and the way the Republican Congress handled it.

Willravel 04-23-2007 04:42 PM

It would have been hilarious had Clinton not been responsible for the country.

dc_dux 04-23-2007 05:17 PM

ace...when you come up with something to match the hundreds of Repub oversight hearings and subpoenas of the Clinton administration beyond the "affair", we can have a serious "common sense" discussion....but I wont hold my breath.

aceventura3 04-23-2007 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace...when you come up with something to match the hundreds of Repub oversight hearings and subpoenas of the Clinton administration beyond the "affair", we can have a serious "common sense" discussion....but I wont hold my breath.

So your position is that "it" is a one sided thing. O.k., and you talk about wanting a serious discussion?

The readers of this exchange can determine who has been more objective. We have gotten off topic here and I am not sure I can add any value to Host's other thread.

dc_dux 04-23-2007 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
So your position is that "it" is a one sided thing. O.k., and you talk about wanting a serious discussion?

The readers of this exchange can determine who has been more objective. We have gotten off topic here and I am not sure I can add any value to Host's other thread.

ace....read what I wrote...."Recent history suggests it goes more one way than the other". That does not imply a "one-sided thing", rather it suggests a "tilt" to the right with more Repub abuses and excesses than Dems when it comes to recent Congressional oversight by a majority party of a Pres of the opposing party.

And the facts bear me out if you take the time to look objectively.

Or post your own facts to make the case (as I asked) that Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush was anything near the level of the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton...and you can even include Dem hearings on Reagan-Iran/Contral and GHW Bush-BCCI/Iraqgate (illegal funding of arms to Iraq)...both having far more serious national policy implications that Clinton's affair.

Absolutely, let the readers determine for themselves if "it" is equally balanced or tilts more one way that the other....and if anyone cares to share facts that back up their opinion, I will be happy to discuss it further in a new thread so as not to get further off track from Gonzales. :)

aceventura3 04-24-2007 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace....read what I wrote...."Recent history suggests it goes more one way than the other". That does not imply a "one-sided thing", rather it suggests a "tilt" to the right with more Repub abuses and excesses than Dems when it comes to recent Congressional oversight by a majority party of a Pres of the opposing party.

You are correct. However, recent history, in this context, is simply a function of the party in control. I am sure the Democrats have plans to make up for lost time, included are these Gonzales hearings.

Quote:

And the facts bear me out if you take the time to look objectively.
I am not sure if we really disagree on the issue, which is why I am confused by what you are saying.

I think the "revenge" cycle is real in Washington, you seem to agree.

When the Republican party was in control they abused power to embarass Democrats, you seem to agree. I agree that the worst abuse of power in my lifetime was the Clinton investigation and impeachment garbage, you seem to agree.

When Democrats were in control they abused power to embarass Republicans, I guess you agree but I am not sure. And if you do agree I guess you think the Democratic Party abuses pale in comparision to abuses by Republicans-excluding the Clinton matter.

And now with Democrats in control I am not sure if you think Democrats are going to showing restraint or not, but I do not and the Gonzales hearings is an example of that. Perhaps this is the key point of our disagreement.

Quote:

Or post your own facts to make the case (as I asked) that Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush was anything near the level of the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton...and you can even include Dem hearings on Reagan-Iran/Contral and GHW Bush-BCCI/Iraqgate (illegal funding of arms to Iraq)...both having far more serious national policy implications that Clinton's affair.
I have stated here and in other threads what I thought about the Clinton matter.

In my opinion this Gonzales hearing is an example of what I am talking about - between this thread and the other thread on the Gonzales matter, this issue has been beat to death. Doing the same with other past issues does not interest me. I am more interested in discussing current events. I have no plans on going through the historical record to provide examples.

dc_dux 04-24-2007 08:14 AM

Quote:

I am sure the Democrats have plans to make up for lost time, included are these Gonzales hearings.
You are sure? Based on what? (certainly not on how they treated Reagan and GHW Bush in oversight)

You're right...I am not sure and see nothing from recent history that would suggest that Dems wont show restraint.
Quote:

And now with Democrats in control I am not sure if you think Democrats are going to showing restraint or not, but I do not and the Gonzales hearings is an example of that. Perhaps this is the key point of our disagreement.
At the very least, the Gonzales affair represents mismanagement or incompetence by the AG, and misleading, contradictory and false information by persons, including the AG , regarding the reasons for the firings and the role of the AG and the WH. At it worst, it raised questions about the greater potential for undue political influence in the criminal justice process (opening the door to 412 WH politicos as opposed to 4 previously raises the opporunity and possibility (not certainty) of potential abuse - its common sense, that IMO, most people would agree with even if you dont), and, potential violations of Senate ethics rules (the questioning of a US attorney by a member of Congress (NM senator) on a pending case and then contacting the AG urging the firing of the attorney)

If this does not meet your test for oversight, what does?

Are there other recent oversight hearings that you would characterize as "revenge motivated" rather than fact-finding?

If not, I would ask again...if you are sure that Dems will act in such a manner, based on what?

trickyy 04-24-2007 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
I think I recall him saying that he did not want to give the appearance of obstructing the investigation by talking to his staff on the subject to clear up details. I am sure if he started asking his staff a bunch of questions about meetings, emails, etc. that would have a much bigger problem.

he did say that, but doesn't that sound like a [weak] excuse? he has no shortage of electronic and paper references, and his staff have already publicly testified.

he selectively forgets things from a few months ago. it's not that he remembers things differently in these instances, his memory is 100% blank.

i don't think he is being honest, and although you did not answer my earlier question about his honesty, i doubt you think he is being honest either.

aceventura3 04-24-2007 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
You are sure? Based on what? (certainly not on how they treated Reagan and GHW Bush in oversight)

You're right...I am not sure and see nothing from recent history that would suggest that Dems wont show restraint.

At the very least, the Gonzales affair represents mismanagement or incompetence by the AG, and misleading, contradictory and false information by persons, including the AG , regarding the reasons for the firings and the role of the AG and the WH. At it worst, it raised questions about the greater potential for undue political influence in the criminal justice process (opening the door to 412 WH politicos as opposed to 4 previously raises the opporunity and possibility (not certainty) of potential abuse - its common sense, that IMO, most people would agree with even if you dont), and, potential violations of Senate ethics rules (the questioning of a US attorney by a member of Congress (NM senator) on a pending case and then contacting the AG urging the firing of the attorney)

If this does not meet your test for oversight, what does?

Are there other recent oversight hearings that you would characterize as "revenge motivated" rather than fact-finding?

If not, I would ask again...if you are sure that Dems will act in such a manner, based on what?

This is a clear abuse of Congrssional power for political gain.

Quote:

Politics: The House last week passed legislation giving the District of Columbia voting rights in Congress. Is this correcting an injustice or a violation of the Founding Father's intent?

The bill the House passed on Thursday was something long desired by liberal activists nationwide as a prelude to granting D.C. statehood and expanding Democratic numbers in the Senate.

It expands the House of Representatives to 437 from 435, giving one vote to the District and, to dampen charges of political motives, one extra seat to the red state of Utah.

With typical pomposity, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said: "We know that the citizens of the District of Columbia will give their voices to a vision of justice, equality and opportunity for all. They already have the voice, now they will have the vote."

Would this sentiment have been the same had the District's representative been, say, Rush Limbaugh instead of Eleanor Holmes Norton?

A lot of things in the U.S. Constitution are ambiguous and open to political and judicial debate, but the status of the District of Columbia is not one of them.

"If the citizens of D.C. want voting representation, a constitutional amendment is essential," says Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga.

Indeed it is.

Article I of the U.S. Constitution clearly states that the "House of Representatives shall be comprised of Members chosen every second Year by People of the several States . . ." and that the "Senate shall be comprised of two Senators from each State . . ."

Well, the District of Columbia is not a state and was deliberately intended by the Founding Fathers not to be one. It is not entitled to representation in either the House or the Senate, unless the Constitution is amended to permit it.
http://www.investors.com/editorial/e...62221125418515

It does not clearly fall into the oversight category, but it is clearly Unconstitutional and a political maneuver targeted to the black vote.

The Plame testimony was political, served no purpose other than an attempt to embarass the white House.

Al Gore's global warming testimony was political, served no purpose other than to give Gore a shot at the spot light.

The Gonzales hearings.

Or how about the Finance Committe refusing to give a hearing to Bush nominee for Deputy Comissioner post at SSA, purely political because he supports privatization.

How about Pelosi's trip to Syria, purely political and only served as an attempt to embarass the White House.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickyy
he did say that, but doesn't that sound like a [weak] excuse? he has no shortage of electronic and paper references, and his staff have already publicly testified.

he selectively forgets things from a few months ago. it's not that he remembers things differently in these instances, his memory is 100% blank.

i don't think he is being honest, and although you did not answer my earlier question about his honesty, i doubt you think he is being honest either.

I think he is being political in a political environment where everyone is being political.

At this point I am not sure what the bigger concern is - that he was not deeply involved in the firings and delegated too much, or he was deeply involved and is downplaying his role and the role of others in the White House. So far it looks like he was not deeply involved, which makes this even more pointless, in my view. Everyone knew he got the post because of his relationship with Bush and not based on competence, and now they want us to believe his competence is an issue???

I also think the standard was set after the Libby trial. People would be foolish to give specific testimony under oath if it is not spot on perfect because of the risk of perjury over issues not material to a crime. I would always qualify my answers or say I don't recall, wouldn't you.

dc_dux 04-24-2007 12:19 PM

Quote:

This is a clear abuse of Congrssional power for political gain.
It does not clearly fall into the oversight category, but it is clearly Unconstitutional and a political maneuver targeted to the black vote.
The question of a voting delegate in the House is NOT clearly unconstitutional. Many constitutial scholars on both ends of the political spectrum refer to the "seat of government" clause as giving Congress the power:
Artice I, section 8
Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--
This same clause has been used in the past to justify requiring DC residents to pay federal taxes (can I stop paying my fed taxes now?) and be drafted into the military (when we had a draft).

The bill also adds a seat to Utah - a presumed R seat to balance a presumed D seat so how is it partisan or for a political gain rather than to give ME something approaching the same rights YOU have.

I recall the Repub co-sponsor of the bill saying at one time that the reason for the bill, rather than another attempt at a Constitutional amendment (which failed in the past) is because there are many still state legislators, particularly in red states, who make it racial (like you) and equate it with a "black vote" rather than a prvilege of citizenship that should be extended to all citizens.

Quote:

Plame and Gore testimony
I agree the Plame and Gore testimony were one-day "shows.

In the case of Plame, I think it was reasonable to give her an opportunity to refute the blatantly false charges against her spread by the right wing. In Gore's case, I would simply refer you back to the global warming hearings conducted by the Repubs.

Quote:

The Gonzales hearings.
I guess mismanagement or incompetence by the AG, misleading, contradictory and false information by persons, including the AG, greater potential for undue political influence by dropping the DoJ/WH firewall, and potential ethical violations of members of Congress....does not meet your threshold for oversight. I couldnt disagree more.

Quote:

The hearing to Bush nominee for Deputy Comissioner post at SSA
How about the 8 Clinton judicial nominees who were never given a hearing by the Repubs....8 lifetime judges vs 1 beaurocrat for 2 years...I would suggest the Repubs got the best of this exchange.

But you're right. They should have had a hearing, then voted him down in committee because his goal is not to protect and ensure the credible administration of SS , but to dismantle the current system.
Quote:

Pelosi's trip to Syria, purely political and only served as an attempt to embarass the White House
Rep. David Hobson (R-OH) was also on that trip. But in an interview published in the WaPo, he states that he never received any of the attacks that were thrown at Pelosi:
“Before we left, we met with the State Department people and nobody told us not to go,” Hobson said, adding that none of his Republican colleagues broached the subject, either. “Nobody ever called me to say, ‘Why are you going to Syria with those people?’“

Hobson has also defended Pelosi against his colleagues’ attacks, noting that she “did not engage in any bashing of Bush in any meeting I was in and she did not in any meeting I was in bash the policies as it relates to Syria.”
The Repub attaks of Pelosi and not Hobson or the group of Repubs who went to Syria one month earlier (do you think their trip was "purely political" or just Pelosi's) is about as hypocritical and ugly partisanship as anything I have seen recently.

ace...I would still ask...what is your test for reasonable and responsible oversight?

aceventura3 04-24-2007 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
The question of a voting delegate in the House is NOT clearly unconstitutional. Many constitutial scholars on both ends of the political spectrum refer to the "seat of government" clause as giving Congress the power:

True - there was a bit of hyperbole on my part. I blame it on the media, people like Rosie O'donnel. They encourage an irrational tone. But I do think the step taken by congress here is wrong and purely for political gain.


Quote:

The bill also adds a seat to Utah - a presumed R seat to balance a presumed D seat so how is it partisan or for a political gain rather than to give ME something approaching the same rights YOU have.
First - giving the seat in Utah has nothing to do with giving people in DC representation, in essence proving the issue is purely a strategic political move.

Second - The issue of DC statehood has been around for a long time. I see this as an attempted step in that direction. If DC had a Republican base a Democratic Congress would not have done this, again proving my point that it is less about representation and more about maintaining control.

Quote:

I recall the Repub co-sponsor of the bill saying at one time that the reason for the bill, rather than another attempt at a Constitutional amendment (which failed in the past) is because there are many still state legislators, particularly in red states, who make it racial (like you) and equate it with a "black vote" rather than a prvilege of citizenship that should be extended to all citizens.
I am not affraid to call it like I see it. We can pretend that Democrats don't have a lock on the "black community", and pretend that they don't want to keep it, and pretend that this issue doesn't help the cause, or we can put it on the table and discuss it.



Quote:

How about the 8 Clinton judicial nominees who were never given a hearing by the Repubs....8 lifetime judges vs 1 beaurocrat for 2 years...I would suggest the Repubs got the best of this exchange.

But you're right. They should have had a hearing, then voted him down in committee because his goal is not to protect and ensure the credible administration of SS , but to dismantle the current system.
The system is broken and needs to be fixed. Democrats, in my opinion, want to avoid debate on the issue. Bush did a recess appointment, so he is in anyway.

Quote:

Rep. David Hobson (R-OH) was also on that trip. But in an interview published in the WaPo, he states that he never received any of the attacks that were thrown at Pelosi:
“Before we left, we met with the State Department people and nobody told us not to go,” Hobson said, adding that none of his Republican colleagues broached the subject, either. “Nobody ever called me to say, ‘Why are you going to Syria with those people?’“

Hobson has also defended Pelosi against his colleagues’ attacks, noting that she “did not engage in any bashing of Bush in any meeting I was in and she did not in any meeting I was in bash the policies as it relates to Syria.”
The Repub attaks of Pelosi and not Hobson or the group of Repubs who went to Syria one month earlier (do you think their trip was "purely political" or just Pelosi's) is about as hypocritical and ugly partisanship as anything I have seen recently.
The hole thing was political nad served no purpose other than the White House and Pelosi trying to upstage each other. Pelosi was sending a political message to her supporters, Bush was sending a political message to his (and to ME countries and our enemies), Syria and others had their political agendas as well.

Quote:

ace...I would still ask...what is your test for reasonable and responsible oversight?
Oversight is fundementally about people protecting that which is in their best interest. It becomes irresponsible when it is dishonest in my view.

Like him or not Bush says what he wants or what he wants to do and does it. Others often say one thing and mean or want another thing.

A perfect example is the DC issue. Democrats are not looking out for your right to vote, they are looking out for their ability to control more votes in Congress. Giving the issue thought-it is clear that one seat in DC will translate to more political power than one seat in Utah. And one House seat in DC is one step closer to two senate seats, which will be Democratic.

dc_dux 04-24-2007 02:58 PM

ace.....I would urge you to read the testimony of Kenneth Starr (hardly a flaming liberal) and his argument for voting rights in the House based on the "Seat of Goverment Clause majestic in its scope" (link-pdf)

or Viet Dinh, conservative former US attorney, Georgtown Univ law professor and principal author of the Patriot Act - "The Authority of Congress to Enact Legislation to Provide the District of Columbia with Voting Represenation in the House of Representatives" (link-pdf)

But beyond that, DC voting rights in the House is not a desire among most DC voting rights supporters for statehood or Senators. The supporters believe in the concept that the House of Rep is the "people's house" including the people of DC...and the Senate is the "states house" as envisoned in the Constution.

Now we are way off track....but please, read up more on DC voting rights before you jump to conclusions and make broad generalizations.

edit - my final thoughts on the central issue here, now that we've beaten it to death:
On rereading many of your posts, IMO (and I am not trying to read your mind or put words in your mouth), it appears to me that actions that you dont agree with you tend to characterize as politically motivated for political gain (you use those expressions often), rather than having any altrustic motive or public policy value.

I think its sad to have such a cynical attitude about goverment and politics, but I do understand what has driven people to that extreme.

aceventura3 04-25-2007 02:33 PM

I expect people to do what they think is their best interest. When they do, I enjoy pointing it out to people who don't get it. The joy I get in looking, understanding and pointing out how decisions and actions are guided by that basic principle is the sad part, primarily because I waste so much time doing it (my wife hates it, so I come here for my regular fix). This is another one of my weaknesses, but at least I know what they are.

Just to be clear, I actually, don't have a cynical attitude about politics and government any more than I have a cynical attitude about wolves hunting and killing prey. It is just the nature of things.

dc_dux 04-25-2007 02:47 PM

ace....just a word of friendly advice.

Its always wise to have a full set of facts before you "point out to people who dont get it"... "how decisions and actions (of other people you dont know) are guided."

In the words of one of our most revered politicians:
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln

Willravel 04-25-2007 02:50 PM

If you could grill Gonzales...

host 04-25-2007 11:19 PM

ace....even with the extreme politicization of the DOJ by the Bush admin., corrupt republican officials were still being indicted and convicted....and that is a good thing....appointees of a republican president investigating crime and indicting and prosecuting those republicans who are too blatantly corrupt and dishonest to be overlooked or benignly neglected:

democrats now in control of the house and the senate, just want to be sure that justice will continue to be pursued, and right now....they don't have that assurance....here is a description of "the problem" that I outlined in my <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2234143&postcount=8">last post</a> over at the "two parties" thread. I think that I did a good job of supporting my contentions there with news articles, and what I posted there, matched nicely with this:

<b>Consider that the following "testimony" from Sampson happened on March 29, 2007.....and....even after Sampson's obvious lies and contradictions about the justification for firing Carol Lam was videotaped (click on link displayed in next quote box), Gonzales told the same obvious lies, while testifying under oath, 3 weeks later:

"Gonzales hedged the question, saying that Lam must have known that there was “interest” in and “concern” with her immigration performance. Members of Congress, Gonzales said, had complained about Lam’s performance. Gonzales allowed that she “may not have been told that if there is no change in policy, there will be a change,” but seemed to think that was an unimportant distinction." <a href="http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003055.php">Watch the Video</a>
</b>
Quote:

<b>Sampson Admits He Made Call To Silence FBI Complaints Over Lam’s Firing</b>

During today’s hearing, Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) questioned Kyle Sampson about the head of the FBI office in San Diego, Dan Dzwilewski, who told reporters in January that Carol Lam’s firing was a blow to efforts to prosecute ongoing cases.

At a hearing with FBI Director Robert Mueller this week, Feinstein said that Dzwilewski’s office had told her it had subsequently been contacted and “warned to say no more.” Under questioning today, Sampson acknowledged he had made a call to complain about Dzwilewski’s statement. But Sampson said he had merely “asked…why an FBI employee was commenting on that issue.” Watch it:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/29/sampson-feinstein/

Also today, Sampson claimed that the “real problem” with Carol Lam that Sampson referred to in an email “was her office’s prosecution of immigration cases.”

Feinstein told Sampson, “It is a real surprise to me that you would say here that the reason for her dismissal was immigration cases.” She then revealed a letter of commendation to Carol Lam dated Feb. 15, 2007, signed by the director of field operations of the United States Customs and Border Protection Agency. She read some excerpts to Sampson:

(Link to letter of praise from US Border Patrol to Carol Lam:
http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com...ion-letter.pdf )

"To address the alien enforcement issue, your office supported the implementation of the Alien Smuggling Fast Track Program, and has demonstrated a commitment to aggressively address the alien smuggling recidivism rate.

In support of Border Patrol referrals for prosecution, your office maintains a 100 percent acceptance rate of criminal cases while staunchly refusing to reduce felony charges to misdemeanors and maintaining a minimal dismissal rate and supporting special prosecution efforts."

Transcript:

FEINSTEIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I’d like to go back to your answers to Senator Specter’s questions, when he asked you about the notice you received on the search warrant on May 10th, 2006, and you indicate — and he asked you if that was related — the real problem aspect was related to this case. And you said no, it was her immigration record. I’m sending — asking my chief counsel to give you a letter and asking that that letter be also distributed to the committee as well as to the press. This is a letter dated February 15th…

LEAHY: And does the senator want that in the record also?

FEINSTEIN: I would. Thank you very much.

LEAHY: Without objection.

FEINSTEIN: … September 15, 2007, signed by the director of field operations of the United States Customs and Border Protection Agency. It’s sent to Carol Lam. And it is a letter of commendation, and I will just read a few sections.

To address the alien enforcement issue, your office supported the implementation of the Alien Smuggling Fast Track Program, and has demonstrated a commitment to aggressively address the alien smuggling recidivism rate.

In support of Border Patrol referrals for prosecution, your office maintains a 100 percent acceptance rate of criminal cases while staunchly refusing to reduce felony charges to misdemeanors and maintaining a minimal dismissal rate and supporting special prosecution efforts.

In validation of enforcement initiatives, your staff aggressively prosecuted enrollees in the Sentry program who engaged in smuggling to support a zero-tolerance posture. They have focused on cases of fraud, special-interest aliens, prosecution of criminal aliens and supported our sustained disrupt operations.

The prosecution’s unit presented 416 alien smuggling cases, which represents a 33 percent increase over the 314 cases presented in ‘05. The prosecutions unit identified and pursued the prosecution of several recidivist alien smugglers and presented 30 non-threshold alien smuggling cases for prosecution, resulting in a 100 percent conviction rate. This represents a 329 percent increase over the seven non-threshold cases presented in 2005.

<h3>Additionally, a cumulation study done by USA Today places Carol Lam as one of the top three attorneys in the United States for the prosecution of these cases.</h3> It is a real surprise to me that you would say here that the reason for her dismissal was immigration cases. Now, if I might go on, who, Mr. Sampson, was Dusty Foggo or is Dusty Foggo?

SAMPSON: I understand from news reports, Senator, and from general knowledge, that he was an employee at the CIA.

FEINSTEIN: And who is Mr. Wilkes?

SAMPSON: I don’t know. I understand, again from news reports, that he’s affiliated somehow with Mr. Foggo.<br>
<h3>It should be an outrage to the sensibilities of any thinking person, to read that the recently resigned Chief of Staff of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, would answer, "I don't know"....when asked, while testifying under oath, if he knew who the named, principle briber of Randy Cunningham was, since Cunningham was sentenced, just 14 months ago, to the longest federal prison term ever meted out for corruption while in office related offenses, more so....since Wilkes was also the best friend of the #3 official at CIA, who was indicted by US Attorney Lam's office on charges related to bribery, just as Cunningham's crimes were.....WTF are the interests and priorties of Gonzales and Sampson???? - host </h3>

FEINSTEIN: And are you aware that on May 10th Carol Lam sent a notice to the Department of Justice saying she would be seeking a search warrant of the CIA investigation into Dusty Foggo and Brent Wilkes?

SAMPSON: I don’t remember ever seeing such a notice.

<b>FEINSTEIN: But the next day you wrote the e-mail</b> which says, The real problem we have right now — right now — with Carol Lam that leads me to conclude we should have someone ready to be nominated on 11/18, the day after her four-year term expires, that that relates to her immigration record.

SAMPSON: The real problem that I was referring to in that e-mail was her office’s failure to being sufficient immigration cases.

FEINSTEIN: OK.

SAMPSON: The attorney general in the month before had been subject to criticism at his — at a hearing in the House Judiciary Committee. And thereafter at the Department of Justice, in our senior management meeting with the deputy attorney general and others, there had been a robust discussion about how to address that issue.

The department was being criticized for not doing enough to enforce the border, largely by House Republicans. And the attorney general was concerned about it. And he asked the deputy attorney general to take some action to address that issue.

I recall also that the deputy attorney general was scheduled to meet with the California House Republicans, who were critical of Carol Lam, on May 11th.

<b>FEINSTEIN: Let me just move on.

On January 13th, Dan Dzwilewski, the head of the FBI office in San Diego, said that he thought Carol Lam’s continued employment was crucial to the success of multiple ongoing investigations.

FEINSTEIN: Did you call FBI headquarters and complain about those comments?

SAMPSON: I did.</b> I called Lisa Monaco (ph), who serves as a special assistant to the director of the FBI, and asked her why an FBI employee was commenting on that issue.

FEINSTEIN: And why would you think that the special agent in charge in the area should not comment on whether her termination was going to affect cases?

SAMPSON: I understood that Carol Lam was a political appointee, and that a decision had been made in the executive branch to ask her to resign so that others could serve.

FEINSTEIN: OK.
Quote:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...007-04-23.html
Miers weighed Yang’s firing according to Sen. Feinstein
By Susan Crabtree
April 24, 2007
Former White House Counsel Harriet Miers discussed firing ex-U.S. Attorney Debra Yang, who was leading an investigation into lucrative ties between Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-Calif.) and a lobbying firm before she left her government post voluntarily last fall, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) charged in a hearing last week.

Feinstein has repeatedly questioned the circumstances surrounding Yang’s departure, but until last week she provided no reasons for her suspicions. Last Thursday, however, during the questioning of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales late in a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, Feinstein flatly stated that Miers had discussed “whether to remove Debra Yang from Los Angeles.”

A Feinstein spokesman indicated only that the senator had learned that Miers had considered ousting Yang “through interviews” and did not respond to repeated questions to elaborate. Andrew Koneschusky, a spokesman to Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), who is leading the probe, also did not respond to questions about whether Miers had targeted Yang and any evidence Feinstein may have about it.

Yang resigned last October, months before Democrats began reviewing the Justice Department’s decision to fire eight other federal prosecutors. According to a report in the American Lawyer, she was lured away by a $1.5 million-plus offer to become a partner at Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher LLP, which is defending Lewis in the probe.

Yang will co-chair the firm’s crisis-management practice group, along with Theodore B. Olson, the former solicitor general of the Bush administration who is now at the firm’s D.C. office. Former Assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas Fuchs, Yang’s colleague at the Los Angeles U.S. attorney’s office, also has joined her at Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher. Yang and Fuchs have recused themselves from working on Lewis’s defense.

Fuchs did not respond to The Hill’s queries. Yang responded by e-mail yesterday but gave no details, saying only she had been busy with work and had not followed Feinstein’s comments about Miers.

In an interview with The Hill last month, Yang dismissed questions about the timing of her departure, which occurred about a month before seven other U.S. attorneys were fired late last year. She argued that she left for personal reasons based on financial concerns and the fact that she is a single mother. She said it had nothing to do with the firings of other U.S. federal prosecutors.

While Feinstein has repeatedly questioned the motive behind Yang’s decision to leave the U.S. attorney job, she provided no reasons for her suspicion before the hearing.

“I have questions about Debra Yang’s departure and I can’t answer those questions right at this time,” Feinstein told reporters on March 20. “Was she asked to resign, and if so, why? We have to ferret that out.”

Feinstein also contends that former San Diego U.S. Attorney Carol Lam’s firing is connected to her role in the investigation of former GOP Rep. Randy “Duke” Cunningham (Calif.), who is in jail for accepting bribes in return for contracts. The Lewis probe is related to the Cunningham probe, which has recently ballooned to include the former third-highest ranking official at the CIA as well as a San Diego businessman.......

aceventura3 04-26-2007 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace....just a word of friendly advice.

Its always wise to have a full set of facts before you "point out to people who dont get it"... "how decisions and actions (of other people you dont know) are guided."

I not sure what set of facts you are referring to, but if your implication is that I don't have 100% of the facts on an issue and you do...(never mind).

Or that a person can not comment on an issue unless they have 100% of the facts...(never mind).

Or that I have never admitted an error and you have...(never mind).

Or that your facts are better than mine... (never mind).


You are trying to bait me into going into the gutter, aren't you? Its like waiving a peice of fresh red meat in front of a lion, but no, I will avoid it today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace....even with the extreme politicization of the DOJ by the Bush admin., corrupt republican officials were still being indicted and convicted....and that is a good thing....appointees of a republican president investigating crime and indicting and prosecuting those republicans who are too blatantly corrupt and dishonest to be overlooked or benignly neglected:

Host,

I am not sure what you want from me. Do you want me to say that Republicans are bad and do everything for the wrong reasons, and Democrats are good and do everything for the right reasons? I can not do it, because it is not true. This issue is political, not an issue about justice.

dc_dux 04-26-2007 09:25 AM

MR. AG:

The House Judiciary Committee voted 32-6 (thats alot of Rebubs voting "aye") to authorize give immunity to Monica Goodling, your primarily liaison to the White House. If the Committee decides to move forward with the immunity offer, she will be compelled to testify (with no 5th amendment claim) or face contempt charges.

Since she was apparently involved in crucial discussions over a two-year period with senior White House aides and would potentially be a key witness to any possible undue or improper interference from the WH.....

Do you want to take one more crack at refreshing your memory and/or encouraging the WH to be more responsive to requests for key documents that appear to be "missing or lost"?


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