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If you could grill Gonzales ...
...what would you ask? As I've been listening to the Judiciary Committee questioning Attorney General/Torture Fiend Alberto Gonzales, I've been imagining questions that I would pose if I were on the Judiciary Committee.
"Mr. Gonzales, it seems, based on your testimony, that Mr. Sampson had the ability to overrule your authority and make decisions for you. Could you speak to the that fact, despite the fact that you had seniority over Mr. Sampson, who was the Chief of your staff?" "Mr. Gonzales, Mr. Sampson gave the following testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee: 'I don't think the attorney general's statement that he was not involved in any discussions of U.S. attorney removals was accurate.' Can you speak, without using the word 'recall', to this?" "Mr. Gonzales, how can you run a department that relies on facts when you seem to lack the ability, after being given 25 days to gather your facts and think about what happened, to remember only a few important conversations?" "Mr. Gonzales, should each of the new attorneys have to go before the Congress for their conformation?" "Mr. Gonzales, can you speak to the justifications for allowing torture?" "Mr. Gonzales, which, to you, is more important: loyalty or the ability to do one's job?" "Mr. Gonzales, what do you think happened to all of those emails?" "Mr. Gonzales, when you resign later this week, who will you be covering for?" |
General Gonzales.....why is it not reasonable to suspect that you and Scooter Libby, and Randy Cunningham have abetted treason or committed treaosnous acts, yourselves......during a "time of war", in view of Libby's convictions, and in view of this, today?:
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I was hoping you'd chime in, Host.
So far, I have to say that I'm impressed with many of the questions of the slime ball Gonzales. Right now, he's being asked who wrote the list, and Gonzales is giving his, "I don't recall" BS. He'll resign this week. |
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Ace = Gonzales? If that's the case, this thread could be construed a personal attack on a fellow member and should be shut down.
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There are a few points hidden (too well) in my post. One - Gonzales should stop dancing around the issue and take responsibility. Two - Even in the worst case, he fired the attorneys for all the wrong reasons, did he actually violate the law in doing so? I not aware of any violation of the law. Three - The hearings are waste of time and resources. Even if Gonzales resigns, what is gained? Nothing in my opinion. Bush is going to replace him with the same kind of guy, there will be hearings, more grandstanding wasting more time and resources, etc. Four - Democrats only have two more years of Bush, why not focus on the future. |
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i just like it when smarmy little fucks like gonzales get put through the reamer. fuck him. if it sends a message that you will get blasted sooner or later for being an asshole on my dollar, then i'm all for it. bush, that beady-eyed little bastard, likely would replace him with some other crap of his ilk. before that, it was what? harriette meyers? but in asfar as it goes, let him squirm.
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Just like Gonzales should be forthcoming so should Congress and everyone else. I think we know they are really doing this for the cameras and to get votes from the folks back home. Even Republicans have joined in, to show that they are "tough" "independent" and willing to take a stand against the Bush Administration - after a good reading of several opinion polls of course. I would just love for Gonzales to simply say, "yea- I fired them, so f-ing what! But I have no sense of drama. We going to have to hear them go on and on about the integrity of our judicial system, and how the trust of the American people has been lost, blah, blah, blah. |
If I could grill Gonzales...
...like salmon with alder wood chips. :( |
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ace,
the moons must be in some odd fucking alignment, because i've found myself agreeing with more than one of your more recent posts. this whole thing revolves, in an indirect fashion, on the disenfranchisement of 99% of american citizen's say in the government. how do you do that? exactly like they do it at publix. you have a name brand. you have a generic. guess what? same company makes 'em both. so these dicks that are in power will stay in power. its just a question of whose face will be on the tv. i'd like to say that will change. it could change. but it will take a hell of lot more americans getting pissed off for it to happen. or a coup d'etat. you know, whatever. if 95% of americans don't give a shit that they are selling their rights out hardcore right now; would they give a shit if a revolution cleanly snipped the admin out of place and replaced it? highly unlikely. |
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This is an example of what passed for "checks and balances"....for "accountability", for the past six years.....until January, 2007: Quote:
This is an example of that "change", manifesting itself, in the US Senate, yesterday: Quote:
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Would You be comfortable, hiring someone to represent you who "couldnt Recall" your case at all?
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ace, i'd just like to point out that i don't think there's much factual basis for that last sentence. they may not speak in complex sentence structures, but that's entirely different from "meaning what you say."
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Unfortunately, it seems a large portion of the citizenry of this country, find reason to question the majority of what the POTUS, and VP say in public. Much of this "doubt" is a direct result of experience from past....indescretions. Mr . Gonzalez is a victim of his position, and the distrust the administration garners in everything it says. It's likely none of this would even be on the table if people were comfortable believing what they were told. |
Folks, can we please keep to the topic at hand? The last few posts haven't had a single commonality with the question posed.
Mr. Gonzales, you've obviously had trouble remembering meetings that have proven to be very important in hindsight. Would you please share with the committee exactly what you do recall being the reasons for these firings and exactly what was asked of you by both the White House and members of the Senate? |
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ace......I read what I've quoted from you, above, and my reaction is that it is as if I am not even here....as if I have not already posted the following: Bush and Cheney are frequent liars, ace....on life and death matters concerning our national security: Quote:
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Posted May 2, 2006: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...8&postcount=63 Posted May 2, 2006: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=64 Posted June 26, 2006: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...8&postcount=22 Posted Sept. 9, 2006: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...93&postcount=7 Posted Sept. 15, 2006: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...9&postcount=47 .....and this article: Quote:
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Note how the Bush administration reacted to Sen. Levn's damning September 8, 2006 statement: Quote:
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host, while you've post a lot of interesting information here, it is not on topic. This thread will not turn into another discussion of White House foreign policy success or failures - we are discussing the Department of Justice here and specifically Attorney General Gonzales.
Last chance to stay on topic, folks. |
I love my new high speed scroll wheel ;)
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I really like Cracker Jacks, y'know. But, it seems to me that the prizes aren't anywhere near as cool as they used to be. And you don't get as much in a box anymore. What's up with that?
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You'd ask Gonzales about cracker jacks?
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Why? Does he like Cracker Jacks, too?
Ooohh...you mean the original thread topic. Well...after wading through the thread, I'd forgotten that there even was a topic. Aahhh...I'm old...my mind wanders. I wonder, for example, why does a Reese's Peanut Butter Egg taste so much different from a regular Peanut Butter Cup? |
Bill,
You are getting old. The question is: why are Reese's Peanut Butter Eggs only sold once a year? No one cares about the taste so much as getting more. Mr. Gonzales, do you recall that answer? Since we're all apparently so hungry, perhaps this thread should be moved to Tilted Cooking.... |
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Getting back.... ..."Mr. Gonzales, I cannot recall my question for you at this time. There may have been a question, but I cannot recall it as of this time. Recall, recall." "Mr. Gonzales, you have repeatedly said that the prosecutors were fired because of their job performance. Out of the 93 prosecutors that were fired, can you name one reason for any of them to have been fired?" |
I don't know how to phrase this exactly, but I've got a question about Gonzales.
I'd appreciate an explanation of what the job standard for US Attorneys which allowed them to be fired was relative to the job standard for the Attorney General which would allow him to keep his job and enjoy the full confidence of the President and Vice President, who evidently regard this incident to be no more than a communications error. I'm aware that US Attorneys serve "at the pleasure of the President", but there's got to be some job description and evaluation that allows them to plan to do a good job. There has to be a way for them to know what to do if they want to keep their jobs. I'd like to know what their understanding of that something is, and how this is communicated to them. Similarly, I'd like to know what Alberto Gonzales's understanding of that something is in relation to his own job - what he is expected to do in order to be understood as having done a good job and what he would to to keep or lose that position. Most of all, I'd like to know how these things were communicatedto him. |
Uber,
My understanding is that they have the same performance criteria as all political appointees. Basically they get to keep chugging along until they either find a better opportunity or piss someone off that's higher in the food chain than they are. For the US Attorneys that could include senators, congressmen, the AG, POTUS, VPOTUS, etc. For the AG, the list is pretty much POTUS and VPOTUS. Implied is all the people directly for these folks who have the actual individual's ear. I'll be dc_dux can give us a more comprehensive and better explained list, but this what I've got. The end result is that you can be absolutely incompetent but until either the press figures it out or you tick off the wrong person, you're fine. It's the magic of patronage. |
Mr. Gonzales - you seem to have difficulty remembering important things. Have you - I'm going to be quite frank, sir - have you been smoking the ganja? Do you habitually smoke marijuana cigarettes? Reefer? If you; that is to say.. if you doubt the relevancy of my question, I am asking in regards to your wretched memory. I've - to be quite honest - met adults who smoked enough marijuana to kill their entire brain.. and they seem to perceive past events in better clarity than you have, sir. How do you answer to the question of smoking the pot?
And did you, sir, in follow up.. inhale? Or did you not inhale? |
The_Jazz:
I get that. I'm just thinking that supervisors typically indicate to their subordinates what it is that they ought to be doing. I'd like to know what indications the US Attorneys were given - explicitly and implicitly. |
Mr. Gonzales, your testimony would appear to have given us two choices; as the Attorney General of the United States, you are either incompetent or corrupt. Is it possible that you are both?
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Or worse, both. :)
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General Gonzales, were you following the same procedures when firing the US attorneys as Bell did in 1978 for Jimma Carter?
Where these attorneys investigating Republicans like the attorneys where investigating democrats in 1978 and where they fired for that reason? And do you believe Carter and Bell were not grilled because the house and senate were controlled by democrats? |
Maybe we should compare the good Gonzales did with the good Bell did. I think you'll find that a one sided exercise.
Meanwhile, do you have any further information on the Bell dismissals besides "Bell fired some US attorneys in 1978". |
Sure Will here ya go,
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And Will would you like to show me what good Bell did? |
And now I have a reason to love my high speed scroll wheel.
Just kidding. Interesting stuff Mike, but I still think that it's apples and oranges. For one thing, Carter was still breathing the fumes of Watergate. |
Two important facts left out of your links, mike.
Griffin Bell did testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee about the firing of Marston. And of those US attorneys who left office between 1981 and 2006, most left volutarily. Only 10 left office involunarily (ie fired)....three were fired for improper or criminal,behavior. So seven were fired for questionable reasons in 25 years...and Bush fires 8 in one day. That difference, in and of itself, would raise reasonable questions....and add the conflicting and changing reasons given by both DOJ and the WH for the firing, and you have more justification for hearings. Again, it was not the firing...it was the lying after the fact, including impugning the reputations of those attorneys by saying the firings were performance related. |
DC, Slick Willie fired ALL the US attorneys when he took office,
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Mike, they all do. This was clearly different.
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If the president wants illegal immigration or the death penalty prosectuted by HIS US attorney and he does't get it, then it is within his right to fire them. |
Did Bell lie about his involvement? Did Clinton lie about his?
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gonzales is in trouble not because of the firings (although even he admits that the firings were a disaster) but because he can't answer simple questions
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You impress me as being a patriotic American.....but I posted detailed accounts of multiple incidents.....irrefutable evidence (you didn't....haven't ever refuted it....) that both the POTUS and the VP lied over and over.....since late 2002....Bush as recently as last Sept....and Cheney as recently as this month.....that Saddam's relationship with al Q'aida....and specifically with al Zarqawi....was justification for invading and occupying Iraq. I've showed that they both lied about that....and I posted on this thread the exchange between Gonzales and Sen. Schumer concerning the fact that US Attorney Carol Lam was fired without ever being told by anyone at DOJ what her performance deficiencies were..... Cqrol Lam prosecuted Randy Cunningham and she brought indictments qgainst CIA's #3 Dusty Foggo and his best friend and Cunningham briber Wilkes and cobriber Mitchell Wade. Cqrol Lam was...when she was fired.....investigating Jerry Lewis...the chairman of the congressional committee dealing with defense appropriations that Randy Cunningham served on.....when he was indicted.....details are here: www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/cats/jerry_lewis/ mike....so far....you've reacted by posting a scroll joke concerning the length of my last post....but no comment about it's damning material about the two leaders who I presume you defend in your last post..... I ask you and Gonzales the same question now.....was Cunningham acting like a traitor in a time of war? Why was it more important to impede Carol Lam's investigation of the full extent of the crimes of those associated with Cunningham's crimes...?. |
Mr. Gonzales we all know you serve at the pleasure of the President, that you have stated that you will not resign unless it is at the request of the President, a President by the way not running for re-election, that you have violated no law, and that we are basically wasting everyone's time, was this whole thing some evil genious kinda scheme concocted by the White House to get Congress focus on a trivial matter rather than the serious business Congress has been entrusted to conduct?
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ace.... Congress has been entrusted with many roles - the most important being enacting legsislation, authorizing the allocation and expenditure of funds to run the goverment AND overseeing the actions and administration of the executive branch (the foundation of our system of check and balances).
why dont you think Congress can multi-task? This 110th Congress has been very active in enacting new legislation. Why do you and Mike continue to believe that a law must be broken in order for Congress to fufill its oversight responsibility? Why do you believe its a trivial matter and a waste of time and money to ensure that the DoJ is managed competently and honestly? Here is what Norm Orstein of the American Enterprise Institute said about Congressional oversight: Quote:
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DC, I understand that it is Congress' responsibility to oversee, but Host continues to post as if Carol Lams firing was something illegal, and it was not, she was not prosecuting they way her EMPLOYERS want her to. Host this is a thread about the attorney general, not Bush and his VP, what they said about Iraq, or how the VP is hung like a horse. And Sen. Schumer is a jack ass, I have the displeasure of having to see his puss on my local news constantly. And to answer your questions, no Cunningham was not acting like a traitor, he was acting like a thief. Perhaps you haven't noticed but the investigation of Cunninghams cronies is still happening without the precious Lam. |
I don't see anywhere in this thread where Host said th firings were illegal. He called the war illegal, and I wholeheartedly agree with that, but I don't see it.
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And Will I said Host is posting AS IF Lams firing was illegal. And for the war being illegal all I'll say is UN resolution 1441. |
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If Bush had simply said, they are fired because I say so...there would have a short-lived firestorm. Its the lies, the conflicting stories, the faulty memories, etc and further examples of political influence in the judicial process by the WH that keep this alive. Quote:
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I know you said 'as if', which is a sign of a red herring and strawman. |
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I would ask General Gonzales why he not only authorized the firing of Randy Cunningham prosecutor Carol Lam, in view of the following, stated by the DOJ's own prosecutor, and did not demand that Cunningham be prosecuted for the crime of treason, and thus....will be allowed to draw a pension for his 21 year tenure of "service" to the US government....and I would ask Gonzales what he could say to the esteemed former Nuremberg prosecutor and senior expert on international law and the crime of pre-emptive war, to counter Ferencz's argument that implicates Gonzales in the same crimes against humanity with which Ferencz implicates Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. I would specifically ask Gonzales for his reaction to this....from the article linked below, by Ben Ferencz....how did Gonzales, with his background as a Texas Judge and counsel to governor and then president Bush, presume to know that this expert was incorrect in her judgment....and for that matter, how do you presume to know this, too....reconmike?: Quote:
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When Repblicans had a majority they wasted the opportunity, now Democrats seem to be doing the same. I have no problem with the Congressional role of oversight, in this situation we knew early Gonzales "misspoke" or "lied", nothing new has come out or will come out. And even if it did, the President has the right to terminate the political appointments. This matter could have been investigated and handled out of the spot light in a matter of days by staff. |
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I don't know about you (after reading your last post.....I really don't know about you......)....but I do my best to make and support my argument...... Do you think you've done that by posting; Quote:
and even folks in the VP's office who gave Cunningham briber, Mitchell Wade, his first government contract, "on board" the "train wreck" for republicans that is coming as a result of fired US Attorney, Carol Lam's prosecution of Randy Cunningham, and her subsequent investigations and indictment of CIA #3, Kyle Foggo.....with nothing posted to support your conclusion, you....ace, post that "there is nothing to see here".....case closed.... Uh-huh..... |
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I have the ablility to look at information and data and form my own views. I almost never blindly quote the views of others. As you know my ego is pretty big, generally I often think my analysis and the opinions I form are more logical an well thought-out than many of the experts you often rely on to support the views other experts have planted in your mind. |
ace...these oversight hearings have revealed much more than just the lying and incompetence by Gonzales et al with the firings of the US Attorneys.
Most disturbing to me was the revelation that the Bush administration has completely dismantled the firewall between the WH and DOJ regarding pending criminal cases. Under Clinton, only 4 WH officials (Pres, VP, WH Counsel and WH Dep. Counsel) could speak or have contact with only 3 DOJ officials (AG, Asst AG, Dep, AG) regarding pending or potential criminal cases to help ensure that there was not undue political influence on those cases. It was revealed at the hearings that the current WH policy allows over 400 political hacks in the EOP (executive office of the pres) to have contact with more than 30 political appointess at DOJ. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hart040707.jpg It is issues like this that come out in oversight hearings. I think it is important for the American people to know about such policy shifts that, IMO, should be questioned by anyone concerned with having safeguards against political influences in the judicial process. |
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Just for kicks can you admit that Congress is milking this issue at least a little more than they need to? Would this issue make your list of the top 100 priorities for Congress? |
Gonazles' response when this was revealed by Sen. Whitehouse was:
"I do recall being concerned about that as White House counsel.”If Congress hadnt "milked it," it is unlikely that this would have surfaced. I obviously think this is more serious than you or Gonzales (who, although "concerned", hasnt done anything about it since moving from WH counsel to AG). As far as my priorities list...I would have a list of "legislative priorities" and a list of "oversight" priorities, recognizing that Congress can and should do both. Oversight of the DOJ to ensure that our chief law enforcement agency is acting competently and credibly and without undue political influence would certainly be among my top 100 "oversight" priorities. |
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ace....my justification for "knowing" that this is the most important congressional investigation, needs to go no further than to comment on what has happened to the two lead prosecutors investigating Cunningham bribers Brett Wilkes, and Mitchell Wade..... Carol Lam was fired, and both Gonzales and his COS, Kyle Sampson, admit under oath, that she was never apprised, before she was fired for not "bringing enough" immigrations violations prosecutions, by any DOJ official. Deborah Yang, LA US Attorney, brought about the investigation of Jerry Lewis, Cunningham's superior on the congressional appropriations committee where Cunningham sold his information and influence of his office to Wilkes and Wade, and admitted doing so in his plea deal from Carol Lam....then resigned and is now working at the law firm that is defending Jerry Lewis, serving on the oversight committee there with Ted Olson, probably the most unscrupulous and rabidly partisan legal "fixer" in the senior level of republican "operatives".....a man reported to be under consideration by the Bush admin. to replace Gonzales.... This mess begs....no....it screams to be investigated.....isn't that right....Mr. Gonzales ??? |
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Host, thats for you - to support the tilting thing - since credibility on an anonymous board is oh so important to me. |
He should be tried for treason. All the evidence we need is the torture memo. While I agree that what Gonzales did with the US attorneys was absolutely wrong and was a clear indicator of his lackey status and his willingness to do anything to protect the monkey in the oval office, it's not the worst thing he's done by far.
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We obviously differ on the value of Congressional oversight and what we see as legitimate versus "grandstanding and "milking" and "tilting". |
The most revealing thing to me in all this has been what a lightweight Gonzalez is. He has all the gravitas of foam rubber.
I say, get Chertoff in there and let Gonzalez go on a looooooooooong furlough. |
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Just because I am dismissive of Gonzalez doesn't mean I think Congress is doing itself any great credit here. This whole "investigation" has one of the highest noise to substance ratios I have seen in a long time.
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gonzales could/should have easily explained the situation. i agreed with the people who said we should "hear him out" but his convenient "forgetfulness" when confronted with questionable emails, memos, meeting information, etc., combined with several "misstatements" and overall poor management skills should be of concern to anyone with resonable standards for the notion of Justice (rememeber that is what he is supposed to represent). if this issue not a big deal, why does he obviously have something to hide? it seems as though he twists the truth when convenient ("I don't recall...") ... is a person lacking honesty someone we want leading the primary department of Law and Order in the country? or would you call him an honest man? |
........... or it could just be that he is as inattentive and heedless as he seems. In which case he is a friggin' incompetent rather than a fraudster.
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dc_dux, you and I post well documented arguments, complete with visuals, footnotes, links......and the response is that they "feel" that we are incorrect, and that they are "spot on"....but they offer nothing to enlighten us....mostly they just feed us our own quotes, with one sentence responses....not very convincing......
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Chertoff....Whitewater pitbull, the man who made the decision to prosecute Arthur Anderson over the Enron fraud.....the result was the destruction of an accounting firm that had employed 26,000....Chertoff got his conviction, it was overturned on appeal, the government did not retry Arthur Anderson....thanks to Chertoff's misguided prosecution, Anderson had ceased to exist.... ....and there's more....nepotism, nazism, NOLA....incompetence, lies......loquitur, tell us what you most admire about Michael Chertoff: Quote:
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Here is one - What good is going to come from all of this? I say nothing, therefore Congress is basically wasting time and energy. The country faces monumental issues that will change the course of history, yet Congress goes through this excercise. |
Host, Chertoff was a highly respected Asst US Attorney in SDNY when I worked in the courthouse and was a highly respected US Attorney in NJ. He was a federal appeals judge on the Third Circuit. You do'nt like one of his decisions. Big whoop.
My point is that he has gravitas and is a serious guy. He is much more weighty Gonzalez. That was my whole point. Host, the only person you would ever accept for any position is a Democrat. |
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The Senate bill passed several weeks ago to overturn the provision in the Patriot Act inserted at the request of the DoJ and by the Repub conference committtee (Dems were excluded) on the process of appointing interim attorneys is not historic, but a positive outcome. Quote:
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Show me the Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush that approached the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton? Will this new Congress be more like the Dems of the 80s or early 90s or the Repubs of the mid-late 90s....time will tell. I obviously have more confidence in the Dems than you. :). (You might also take another look at the "Its both parties" thread and my link to the K Street Project and show me a Dem Congress that approached that level of corruption and influence peddling.) One thing is certain, they will not be as complacent and turning a blind eye to their oversight responsibility as the Repub Congress of 00-06..and I think that is good for the country...even if they resort to what some may call "grandstanding" to be heard above the right wing spinmeisters and bloggers. |
I agree nothing I recall comes close to the Clinton affair (pardon the pun) and the way the Republican Congress handled it.
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It would have been hilarious had Clinton not been responsible for the country.
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ace...when you come up with something to match the hundreds of Repub oversight hearings and subpoenas of the Clinton administration beyond the "affair", we can have a serious "common sense" discussion....but I wont hold my breath.
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The readers of this exchange can determine who has been more objective. We have gotten off topic here and I am not sure I can add any value to Host's other thread. |
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And the facts bear me out if you take the time to look objectively. Or post your own facts to make the case (as I asked) that Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush was anything near the level of the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton...and you can even include Dem hearings on Reagan-Iran/Contral and GHW Bush-BCCI/Iraqgate (illegal funding of arms to Iraq)...both having far more serious national policy implications that Clinton's affair. Absolutely, let the readers determine for themselves if "it" is equally balanced or tilts more one way that the other....and if anyone cares to share facts that back up their opinion, I will be happy to discuss it further in a new thread so as not to get further off track from Gonzales. :) |
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I think the "revenge" cycle is real in Washington, you seem to agree. When the Republican party was in control they abused power to embarass Democrats, you seem to agree. I agree that the worst abuse of power in my lifetime was the Clinton investigation and impeachment garbage, you seem to agree. When Democrats were in control they abused power to embarass Republicans, I guess you agree but I am not sure. And if you do agree I guess you think the Democratic Party abuses pale in comparision to abuses by Republicans-excluding the Clinton matter. And now with Democrats in control I am not sure if you think Democrats are going to showing restraint or not, but I do not and the Gonzales hearings is an example of that. Perhaps this is the key point of our disagreement. Quote:
In my opinion this Gonzales hearing is an example of what I am talking about - between this thread and the other thread on the Gonzales matter, this issue has been beat to death. Doing the same with other past issues does not interest me. I am more interested in discussing current events. I have no plans on going through the historical record to provide examples. |
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You're right...I am not sure and see nothing from recent history that would suggest that Dems wont show restraint. Quote:
If this does not meet your test for oversight, what does? Are there other recent oversight hearings that you would characterize as "revenge motivated" rather than fact-finding? If not, I would ask again...if you are sure that Dems will act in such a manner, based on what? |
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he selectively forgets things from a few months ago. it's not that he remembers things differently in these instances, his memory is 100% blank. i don't think he is being honest, and although you did not answer my earlier question about his honesty, i doubt you think he is being honest either. |
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It does not clearly fall into the oversight category, but it is clearly Unconstitutional and a political maneuver targeted to the black vote. The Plame testimony was political, served no purpose other than an attempt to embarass the white House. Al Gore's global warming testimony was political, served no purpose other than to give Gore a shot at the spot light. The Gonzales hearings. Or how about the Finance Committe refusing to give a hearing to Bush nominee for Deputy Comissioner post at SSA, purely political because he supports privatization. How about Pelosi's trip to Syria, purely political and only served as an attempt to embarass the White House. Quote:
At this point I am not sure what the bigger concern is - that he was not deeply involved in the firings and delegated too much, or he was deeply involved and is downplaying his role and the role of others in the White House. So far it looks like he was not deeply involved, which makes this even more pointless, in my view. Everyone knew he got the post because of his relationship with Bush and not based on competence, and now they want us to believe his competence is an issue??? I also think the standard was set after the Libby trial. People would be foolish to give specific testimony under oath if it is not spot on perfect because of the risk of perjury over issues not material to a crime. I would always qualify my answers or say I don't recall, wouldn't you. |
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Artice I, section 8This same clause has been used in the past to justify requiring DC residents to pay federal taxes (can I stop paying my fed taxes now?) and be drafted into the military (when we had a draft). The bill also adds a seat to Utah - a presumed R seat to balance a presumed D seat so how is it partisan or for a political gain rather than to give ME something approaching the same rights YOU have. I recall the Repub co-sponsor of the bill saying at one time that the reason for the bill, rather than another attempt at a Constitutional amendment (which failed in the past) is because there are many still state legislators, particularly in red states, who make it racial (like you) and equate it with a "black vote" rather than a prvilege of citizenship that should be extended to all citizens. Quote:
In the case of Plame, I think it was reasonable to give her an opportunity to refute the blatantly false charges against her spread by the right wing. In Gore's case, I would simply refer you back to the global warming hearings conducted by the Repubs. Quote:
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But you're right. They should have had a hearing, then voted him down in committee because his goal is not to protect and ensure the credible administration of SS , but to dismantle the current system. Quote:
“Before we left, we met with the State Department people and nobody told us not to go,” Hobson said, adding that none of his Republican colleagues broached the subject, either. “Nobody ever called me to say, ‘Why are you going to Syria with those people?’“The Repub attaks of Pelosi and not Hobson or the group of Repubs who went to Syria one month earlier (do you think their trip was "purely political" or just Pelosi's) is about as hypocritical and ugly partisanship as anything I have seen recently. ace...I would still ask...what is your test for reasonable and responsible oversight? |
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Second - The issue of DC statehood has been around for a long time. I see this as an attempted step in that direction. If DC had a Republican base a Democratic Congress would not have done this, again proving my point that it is less about representation and more about maintaining control. Quote:
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Like him or not Bush says what he wants or what he wants to do and does it. Others often say one thing and mean or want another thing. A perfect example is the DC issue. Democrats are not looking out for your right to vote, they are looking out for their ability to control more votes in Congress. Giving the issue thought-it is clear that one seat in DC will translate to more political power than one seat in Utah. And one House seat in DC is one step closer to two senate seats, which will be Democratic. |
ace.....I would urge you to read the testimony of Kenneth Starr (hardly a flaming liberal) and his argument for voting rights in the House based on the "Seat of Goverment Clause majestic in its scope" (link-pdf)
or Viet Dinh, conservative former US attorney, Georgtown Univ law professor and principal author of the Patriot Act - "The Authority of Congress to Enact Legislation to Provide the District of Columbia with Voting Represenation in the House of Representatives" (link-pdf) But beyond that, DC voting rights in the House is not a desire among most DC voting rights supporters for statehood or Senators. The supporters believe in the concept that the House of Rep is the "people's house" including the people of DC...and the Senate is the "states house" as envisoned in the Constution. Now we are way off track....but please, read up more on DC voting rights before you jump to conclusions and make broad generalizations. edit - my final thoughts on the central issue here, now that we've beaten it to death: On rereading many of your posts, IMO (and I am not trying to read your mind or put words in your mouth), it appears to me that actions that you dont agree with you tend to characterize as politically motivated for political gain (you use those expressions often), rather than having any altrustic motive or public policy value. I think its sad to have such a cynical attitude about goverment and politics, but I do understand what has driven people to that extreme. |
I expect people to do what they think is their best interest. When they do, I enjoy pointing it out to people who don't get it. The joy I get in looking, understanding and pointing out how decisions and actions are guided by that basic principle is the sad part, primarily because I waste so much time doing it (my wife hates it, so I come here for my regular fix). This is another one of my weaknesses, but at least I know what they are.
Just to be clear, I actually, don't have a cynical attitude about politics and government any more than I have a cynical attitude about wolves hunting and killing prey. It is just the nature of things. |
ace....just a word of friendly advice.
Its always wise to have a full set of facts before you "point out to people who dont get it"... "how decisions and actions (of other people you dont know) are guided." In the words of one of our most revered politicians: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." |
If you could grill Gonzales...
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ace....even with the extreme politicization of the DOJ by the Bush admin., corrupt republican officials were still being indicted and convicted....and that is a good thing....appointees of a republican president investigating crime and indicting and prosecuting those republicans who are too blatantly corrupt and dishonest to be overlooked or benignly neglected:
democrats now in control of the house and the senate, just want to be sure that justice will continue to be pursued, and right now....they don't have that assurance....here is a description of "the problem" that I outlined in my <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2234143&postcount=8">last post</a> over at the "two parties" thread. I think that I did a good job of supporting my contentions there with news articles, and what I posted there, matched nicely with this: <b>Consider that the following "testimony" from Sampson happened on March 29, 2007.....and....even after Sampson's obvious lies and contradictions about the justification for firing Carol Lam was videotaped (click on link displayed in next quote box), Gonzales told the same obvious lies, while testifying under oath, 3 weeks later: "Gonzales hedged the question, saying that Lam must have known that there was “interest” in and “concern” with her immigration performance. Members of Congress, Gonzales said, had complained about Lam’s performance. Gonzales allowed that she “may not have been told that if there is no change in policy, there will be a change,” but seemed to think that was an unimportant distinction." <a href="http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003055.php">Watch the Video</a> </b> Quote:
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Or that a person can not comment on an issue unless they have 100% of the facts...(never mind). Or that I have never admitted an error and you have...(never mind). Or that your facts are better than mine... (never mind). You are trying to bait me into going into the gutter, aren't you? Its like waiving a peice of fresh red meat in front of a lion, but no, I will avoid it today. Quote:
I am not sure what you want from me. Do you want me to say that Republicans are bad and do everything for the wrong reasons, and Democrats are good and do everything for the right reasons? I can not do it, because it is not true. This issue is political, not an issue about justice. |
MR. AG:
The House Judiciary Committee voted 32-6 (thats alot of Rebubs voting "aye") to authorize give immunity to Monica Goodling, your primarily liaison to the White House. If the Committee decides to move forward with the immunity offer, she will be compelled to testify (with no 5th amendment claim) or face contempt charges. Since she was apparently involved in crucial discussions over a two-year period with senior White House aides and would potentially be a key witness to any possible undue or improper interference from the WH..... Do you want to take one more crack at refreshing your memory and/or encouraging the WH to be more responsive to requests for key documents that appear to be "missing or lost"? |
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