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Old 04-04-2007, 05:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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George W. Bush thinks we're stupid. I think he's right.

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Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House has criticized House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's plans to stop in Syria next week during a Middle East trip that began Friday.

She will be the highest-ranking U.S. official to visit Syria since relations deteriorated between Damascus and Washington.

The United States has accused Syria of aiding the Sunni insurgency in western Iraq with weapons and fighters. Syria also is accused of supporting the militant extremist groups Hezbollah, a Shiite political party and militia, and Hamas.

"We do not encourage and, in fact, we discourage members of Congress to make such visits to Syria," said White House deputy spokeswoman Dana Perino. "This is a country that is a state sponsor of terror, one that is trying to disrupt the (Prime Minister Fouad) Siniora government in Lebanon and one that is allowing foreign fighters to flow through its borders to Iraq.

"I don't know what she is trying to accomplish, and I don't know if anyone in the administration has spoken to her about it," Perino said. "In general, we do discourage such trips."

Responding to a follow-up question, Perino added, "We think that someone should take a step back and think about the message that it sends ... to our allies."
How come nobody, media included, mentions that there are three republican congressmen there meeting with Assad as well?
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Quote:
While U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's upcoming visit to Syria has caused the White Houe to bristle, a little-publicized rendezvous took place Sunday between Syria's president and Lancaster County's congressman.

And though Bush administration officials have been criticizing Pelosi, it's not clear what role the White House and the U.S. Department of State played when U.S. Rep. Joe Pitts and two other Republican congressmen met with Syrian President Bassar Assad.

Pitts is a Chester County Republican who represents Lancaster County.

Gabe Neville, Pitts' chief of staff, said Monday the conference between Assad and the three Republicans was intended to be "low profile."

"It was done in cooperation with the administration," he said.
It's not surprising anymore.
I've also come to expect the national media parrotting the administration line and not knowing/desiring to report that three republican congressmen were sent by the administration to Syria a few days earlier.

It's just a sad fact that we don't have any Cronkites or Murrows in this country anymore.
Instead, we get Courics. Flashy exterior with no backbone inside. Someone who tells the news like the parent corporations want, which is not rocking the boat.

But how ballsy of the Administration to publicly blast Pelosi for this when they had already sent three Republicans to the exact same place. America is going to fall for his lies and spin on this one too. Noone is telling them any different...

Noone is going to know that Bush sent three Republicans to be diplomatic too. Only that Pelosi is going behind Bush's back to undermine the troops or some such nonsense.
Pelosi is actually there on behalf of Israel, who is willing to open diplomatic channels and start negotiating. link
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Old 04-04-2007, 07:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Sorry but seeing it on the TV and reading it multiple times, every instance they mentioned Republican Congressmen joining her on the trip.

Personally I'm split. Communications need to be opened up, but I don't see anything productive coming out of it. Syria will not turn pro-west all of a sudden, nor will they ever stop sending fighters or munitions into Iraq as long as we're there. Until then it's just posturing for the cameras as far as I care.
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Old 04-04-2007, 07:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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So Syria is supposed to become "pro-west"? What does that mean?

Maybe if we invade them and have Bush strutting around in a flight suit declaring "Mission Accomplished" that will make them "pro-west".

That ...or perhaps we talk to them.
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Old 04-04-2007, 07:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Sorry but seeing it on the TV and reading it multiple times, every instance they mentioned Republican Congressmen joining her on the trip.
Agreed. My shop mentioned it. So did the fox affiliate in town. Not sure about the other 2 - didn't watch them. It kinda blows your point when you claim the media didn't mention it, and then link to a media site in which it is mentioned. .. .
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I have noticed the headlines have concentrated on Bush vs. Pelosi but the stories usually delve deeper.

I've made a deal with myself. I do my best not to read the news unless I can read the stories. A couple pages of headlines and I'm mumbling on the street corner with my "REPENT!" signs.

Shakran, how'd you like the News War 4-parter on PBS?
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
So Syria is supposed to become "pro-west"? What does that mean?

Maybe if we invade them and have Bush strutting around in a flight suit declaring "Mission Accomplished" that will make them "pro-west".

That ...or perhaps we talk to them.
Um... wow. Honestly, I don't even know where to go with that.

I could point out the diplomatic talks Nixon/Kissinger managed to change China from the Soviet's most powerful ally to one of ours. I could point out the social and political divisions between the two which allowed our talks to carry weight, yet do not exist with Syria.

Or I can point out that there is no foreseeable way the Ba'ath party in Syria will either:
A) Stop supporting terrorism in Iraq
B) Stop supporting terrorism in Palestine
C) Stop supporting terrorism in Lebanon
D) Stop assasinating people in Lebanon
E) Support the Iraqi National Police Forces

None of these have anything to do with a "Mission Accomplished" banners, nor any jumpsuits. So please, what do you suggest we talk about?

What do we have to offer that is acceptable to them in which would get them to agree to at least a few of the above mentioned when doing so is a large part of the justification for their regeim's existance in the first place?

Until there is a practical outcome which can be accomplished I see no reason to talk. By no means do I say we withdraw our ambassadors, but do you honestly believe that Pelosi is over there for anything more than political posturing?
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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I haven't seen a report yet that that after discussing her trip, or the administration scolding her for it, informed the viewer/reader that Bush only days before sent three republican congressmen to Syria himself.

The link I gave was for Lancaster, PA's (home to one of the Republican Congressmen, Pitts) own local paper. It's not like the national news that will just report on what the Administration says.

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Is it also political posturing for the Administration when they send congressional Republicans? She actually went with a message to convey from Israel. Wouldn't that have a practical outcome?
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrnel
I have noticed the headlines have concentrated on Bush vs. Pelosi but the stories usually delve deeper.
Hehe. Yes, they do tend to include more details in the body of the story

Quote:
I've made a deal with myself. I do my best not to read the news unless I can read the stories. A couple pages of headlines and I'm mumbling on the street corner with my "REPENT!" signs.
Good. I wish more people would start thinking like that. An uninformed populace cannot be a free populace. Democracy cannot exist without an informed public.


Quote:
Shakran, how'd you like the News War 4-parter on PBS?
Well it sure didn't surprise me any. Depressed me, but then any time I take a good hard look at the state of my craft I tend to slide toward depression. Journalism is not what it was, and it's not what it needs to be, but two things are standing in our way. Corporations owning us (bad, BAD idea), and people not giving a shit.

The corporate ownership means we're automatically beholden to the very institutions we ought to be dogging. While you don't see obvious conflicts of interest daily (i.e. NBC would not shy away from a story about, say, a defective run of GE jet engines), you do see conflicts of interest regarding issues, especially the politically charged ones. Corporations by and large skew republican, which makes sense because the republicans give them the best deal. Unfortunately that means journalism tends to skew toward the right as well, despite the frenzied bleating of the right and Fox News Channel about how liberal the media is. And that frenzied bleating has many of my colleagues bending over backward to try and appear to be "fair" to the right (which means not calling the right out when they screw up unless it's REALLY obvious to everyone).

The second problem is even worse, however - mainly because it's a societal one, and one which journalism cannot cure, although it could certainly stop contributing to it. People would much rather see an episode of Cops, Fear Factor, or Nanny 911 than the news. Today's society is disturbingly attracted to displays of human misery and conflict. My kid took an interest in the police several years ago, and started watching Cops. I watched an episode with him and was frankly disgusted at the idea that so many people are attracted to watching this half hour parade of humanity at its worst.

Unfortunately, rather than taking the high road, journalism, especially television journalism, has decided to appeal to this lust for misery. Watch the average newscast and you'll think your city, no matter where you live, is a warzone. Murder, rape, fights, crime, drugs, all paraded in the A block accompanied by flashy graphics and useless live shots.

Rather than tackling real issues (foreign policy, the economy, global warming, ethanol) that effects each and every one of us, we'd rather do a live shot from an car wreck involving 3 people and that MAYBE 20 people in the entire viewing area have a personal stake in.

Instead of exploring the why's of teen violence, we'll just show you that 30 second clip we ripped off of youtube that has 2 kids from somewhere 700 miles away duking it out.

Why? Well first, it's easier. Takes much less effort to pop out to some dipshit liveshot and babble into the camera for half a minute than it does to actually research and present issues in a coherent manner. That's not to say we journalists don't WANT to do that - -we do. Oh hell yes we do, but we also have bosses who hold the power to fire us, and those bosses have decided that what you the masses want is sex, drugs, violence, and human suffering - but you just want to revel in the images and not look into the root issues underneath them. And unfortunately for many of you that's true - if it wasn't then asinine shows like Cops would never have made it. In my opinion, however, journalism should not cater to what people want simply because they want it. Adults are supposed to be mature enough to realize that sometimes they have to experience things that might not be as much fun as seeing people get shot. Journalism should not be encouraging the infantification of the country.

Didn't think you'd get this long of a rant out of me, did you?

Last edited by shakran; 04-04-2007 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:22 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
I could point out the diplomatic talks Nixon/Kissinger managed to change China from the Soviet's most powerful ally to one of ours.
I don't want to threadjack too badly, but this isn't really true. The Chinese and Soviets had a relationship that started degrading the moment Stalin died. Mao saw himself as the new torchholder for the revolution, and he and Khrushchev tangled many times, including some pretty vicious swipes at one another. By the time Breshnev rolled into power, there was a low-grade border war being fought between the two nations. One of the great failings of American foreign policy during the Cold War was not exploiting the differences and divides in Sino/Soviet relations. Kissinger was really one of the first to recognize the breach and the first to actually exploit it, although the Chinese have never really been our ally.

Back on topic, the thing that always amazes me about Congressional visits to foreign states is the hard and fast rule that nothing ever gets accomplished. Honestly, has anything solid ever come out of one of these trips?

That said, I think that it's a good thing because it allows the administration to keep their message intact while reaching out to the Syrians. I see this as a version of a smoke-and-mirrors trick so that actual discussions can take place. I'm sure that all the Congressional members were briefed and given instructions on agendas.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:49 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Along the lines of what Jazz said, I found this article from the Asia Times Online. I realize that it's really a speculative piece, but there are some interesting conclusions. I chopped it up pretty good to keep it relevant to our discussion, but you can "unhide" to see the full thing.

Was it really Pelosi in Damascus?
By Sami Moubayed

...Olmert decided to break with the Bush administration after the Democratic election victory last year and rely on the president's opponents in Congress for his Middle East diplomacy. That certainly is unlikely. Or maybe Pelosi was actually in Damascus at the request of Bush himself.

All the talk about Bush being opposed to her visit, therefore, would be no more than media jargon, intended for local consumption in the United States. This would mean that Pelosi was in Damascus because Bush wanted her to be in Damascus. Opposing the visit would save him a lot of face, given all his rising rhetoric in recent years on Syria.

Indeed, Bush has raised the anti-Syrian tone to such an extent that it has became too difficult for him to retreat without embarrassing himself. Bush realized he was wrong - the Syrians were right - and he needed a back channel to Damascus to help bring about stability to Lebanon and Palestine - and, more important, Iraq.

True, Pelosi was carrying a message from the Israelis, but the real substance of her visit was a message from Washington, DC. The real message was: we need the Syrians.

The final questions arise from Pelosi's trip to Beirut, before going to Syria. Speaking with authority, she told the Lebanese that the US "will not bargain over Lebanon" and that her visit to Syria "ought not to be considered as meaning a change in US policy concerning Lebanon". If Pelosi was not representing the White House, how could she then give remarks on official US policy in the Middle East?

Didn't the Bush administration say that she did not represent the official government in her Middle East tour? Or was she mandated to speak officially on Lebanon, and unofficially on Syria? She then said from Beirut, after meeting with parliamentary majority leader Saad al-Hariri, "The road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus." She added that her visit did not fall within the framework of "illusions" but "great hope".   click to show 
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
I don't want to threadjack too badly, but this isn't really true. The Chinese and Soviets had a relationship that started degrading the moment Stalin died. Mao saw himself as the new torchholder for the revolution, and he and Khrushchev tangled many times, including some pretty vicious swipes at one another. By the time Breshnev rolled into power, there was a low-grade border war being fought between the two nations. One of the great failings of American foreign policy during the Cold War was not exploiting the differences and divides in Sino/Soviet relations. Kissinger was really one of the first to recognize the breach and the first to actually exploit it, although the Chinese have never really been our ally.
That's why I added the second part.

Quote:
I could point out the social and political divisions between the two which allowed our talks to carry weight, yet do not exist with Syria.
My point was there is no division within Syria, nor do they have a powerful ally, which we could exploit with talks.
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Seaver, my point was that China wasn't the Soviet's most powerful ally in the late 60's/early 70's and that China was never a powerful ally of ours. The reason that Kissinger's talks were successful had more to do with the fact that China had been pulling away from the Soviets for years. There's also an interesting theory that Kissinger presented them with proof that the Soviets attempted to frame the Chinese for an unprovoked nuclear strike on Honolulu in 64 or 65 using an older model Soviet missle sub that sank either by accident or mutiny. I don't know how much credence I lend to that theory, but it would explain the suddenness that the Chinese open to us with.

Sorry for the second threadjack, but the diplomacy angle isn't always the one that is the most effective. Sometimes proving that your enemies aren't treating everyone well is more important than what you have to offer, though.
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbelt
linky dinky


How come nobody, media included, mentions that there are three republican congressmen there meeting with Assad as well?
linky dinky


It's not surprising anymore.
I've also come to expect the national media parrotting the administration line and not knowing/desiring to report that three republican congressmen were sent by the administration to Syria a few days earlier.

It's just a sad fact that we don't have any Cronkites or Murrows in this country anymore.
Instead, we get Courics. Flashy exterior with no backbone inside. Someone who tells the news like the parent corporations want, which is not rocking the boat.

But how ballsy of the Administration to publicly blast Pelosi for this when they had already sent three Republicans to the exact same place. America is going to fall for his lies and spin on this one too. Noone is telling them any different...

Noone is going to know that Bush sent three Republicans to be diplomatic too. Only that Pelosi is going behind Bush's back to undermine the troops or some such nonsense.
Pelosi is actually there on behalf of Israel, who is willing to open diplomatic channels and start negotiating. link
There are different audiiences. Bush is sending a message to Syria. Pelosi is sending a message to her base. Syria is sending a message, using Pelosi (look at their national headlines), to its supporters. Bush stopped caring about what you (or we) think about two years ago. Bush is more forcused on what he wants to accomplish before the end of his term, his ratings can't get much lower.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Seaver, my point was that China wasn't the Soviet's most powerful ally in the late 60's/early 70's and that China was never a powerful ally of ours. The reason that Kissinger's talks were successful had more to do with the fact that China had been pulling away from the Soviets for years. There's also an interesting theory that Kissinger presented them with proof that the Soviets attempted to frame the Chinese for an unprovoked nuclear strike on Honolulu in 64 or 65 using an older model Soviet missle sub that sank either by accident or mutiny. I don't know how much credence I lend to that theory, but it would explain the suddenness that the Chinese open to us with.

Sorry for the second threadjack, but the diplomacy angle isn't always the one that is the most effective. Sometimes proving that your enemies aren't treating everyone well is more important than what you have to offer, though.
Well, choice of words is key. I never said they were their "closest" allies, they were, however, their most "powerful."
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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My bad - I didn't realize that you were using "powerful" in the military/industrial sense. It makes more sense now especially in the light of the sub attack theory.

Since I've managed to threadjack this thread all to hell and gone with my Soviet obsession, I'll back out now with apologies until someone puts us back on topic.
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Old 04-05-2007, 04:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Shakran, your rant is almost word for word what I believe is wrong with the media. I have been making that same argument for years.

Sorry for the "me too". Carry on.
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Um... wow. Honestly, I don't even know where to go with that.

...
A) Stop supporting terrorism in Iraq
B) Stop supporting terrorism in Palestine
C) Stop supporting terrorism in Lebanon
D) Stop assasinating people in Lebanon
E) Support the Iraqi National Police Forces

None of these have anything to do with a "Mission Accomplished" banners, nor any jumpsuits. So please, what do you suggest we talk about?
I like your list. How do you propose that the United States compel Syria to do the United States' bidding?

I see three options:

1) We can talk to them.
2) We can do nothing.
3) We can bomb them into the stone age.

Only solution three involves Bush bravely leading troops into battle:



Right now it seems that Bush is engaging in mostly number 2. Maybe you think it's his duty -But is "doing nothing" an effective strategy at compelling Syria to A), B), C), D) and E)?
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