04-04-2007, 05:19 PM | #1 (permalink) | ||
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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George W. Bush thinks we're stupid. I think he's right.
linky dinky
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I've also come to expect the national media parrotting the administration line and not knowing/desiring to report that three republican congressmen were sent by the administration to Syria a few days earlier. It's just a sad fact that we don't have any Cronkites or Murrows in this country anymore. Instead, we get Courics. Flashy exterior with no backbone inside. Someone who tells the news like the parent corporations want, which is not rocking the boat. But how ballsy of the Administration to publicly blast Pelosi for this when they had already sent three Republicans to the exact same place. America is going to fall for his lies and spin on this one too. Noone is telling them any different... Noone is going to know that Bush sent three Republicans to be diplomatic too. Only that Pelosi is going behind Bush's back to undermine the troops or some such nonsense. Pelosi is actually there on behalf of Israel, who is willing to open diplomatic channels and start negotiating. link |
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04-04-2007, 07:15 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Sorry but seeing it on the TV and reading it multiple times, every instance they mentioned Republican Congressmen joining her on the trip.
Personally I'm split. Communications need to be opened up, but I don't see anything productive coming out of it. Syria will not turn pro-west all of a sudden, nor will they ever stop sending fighters or munitions into Iraq as long as we're there. Until then it's just posturing for the cameras as far as I care.
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
04-04-2007, 07:51 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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04-04-2007, 09:44 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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I have noticed the headlines have concentrated on Bush vs. Pelosi but the stories usually delve deeper.
I've made a deal with myself. I do my best not to read the news unless I can read the stories. A couple pages of headlines and I'm mumbling on the street corner with my "REPENT!" signs. Shakran, how'd you like the News War 4-parter on PBS?
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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
04-04-2007, 10:13 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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I could point out the diplomatic talks Nixon/Kissinger managed to change China from the Soviet's most powerful ally to one of ours. I could point out the social and political divisions between the two which allowed our talks to carry weight, yet do not exist with Syria. Or I can point out that there is no foreseeable way the Ba'ath party in Syria will either: A) Stop supporting terrorism in Iraq B) Stop supporting terrorism in Palestine C) Stop supporting terrorism in Lebanon D) Stop assasinating people in Lebanon E) Support the Iraqi National Police Forces None of these have anything to do with a "Mission Accomplished" banners, nor any jumpsuits. So please, what do you suggest we talk about? What do we have to offer that is acceptable to them in which would get them to agree to at least a few of the above mentioned when doing so is a large part of the justification for their regeim's existance in the first place? Until there is a practical outcome which can be accomplished I see no reason to talk. By no means do I say we withdraw our ambassadors, but do you honestly believe that Pelosi is over there for anything more than political posturing?
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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04-04-2007, 10:23 PM | #7 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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I haven't seen a report yet that that after discussing her trip, or the administration scolding her for it, informed the viewer/reader that Bush only days before sent three republican congressmen to Syria himself.
The link I gave was for Lancaster, PA's (home to one of the Republican Congressmen, Pitts) own local paper. It's not like the national news that will just report on what the Administration says. __ Is it also political posturing for the Administration when they send congressional Republicans? She actually went with a message to convey from Israel. Wouldn't that have a practical outcome? |
04-04-2007, 10:53 PM | #8 (permalink) | |||
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The corporate ownership means we're automatically beholden to the very institutions we ought to be dogging. While you don't see obvious conflicts of interest daily (i.e. NBC would not shy away from a story about, say, a defective run of GE jet engines), you do see conflicts of interest regarding issues, especially the politically charged ones. Corporations by and large skew republican, which makes sense because the republicans give them the best deal. Unfortunately that means journalism tends to skew toward the right as well, despite the frenzied bleating of the right and Fox News Channel about how liberal the media is. And that frenzied bleating has many of my colleagues bending over backward to try and appear to be "fair" to the right (which means not calling the right out when they screw up unless it's REALLY obvious to everyone). The second problem is even worse, however - mainly because it's a societal one, and one which journalism cannot cure, although it could certainly stop contributing to it. People would much rather see an episode of Cops, Fear Factor, or Nanny 911 than the news. Today's society is disturbingly attracted to displays of human misery and conflict. My kid took an interest in the police several years ago, and started watching Cops. I watched an episode with him and was frankly disgusted at the idea that so many people are attracted to watching this half hour parade of humanity at its worst. Unfortunately, rather than taking the high road, journalism, especially television journalism, has decided to appeal to this lust for misery. Watch the average newscast and you'll think your city, no matter where you live, is a warzone. Murder, rape, fights, crime, drugs, all paraded in the A block accompanied by flashy graphics and useless live shots. Rather than tackling real issues (foreign policy, the economy, global warming, ethanol) that effects each and every one of us, we'd rather do a live shot from an car wreck involving 3 people and that MAYBE 20 people in the entire viewing area have a personal stake in. Instead of exploring the why's of teen violence, we'll just show you that 30 second clip we ripped off of youtube that has 2 kids from somewhere 700 miles away duking it out. Why? Well first, it's easier. Takes much less effort to pop out to some dipshit liveshot and babble into the camera for half a minute than it does to actually research and present issues in a coherent manner. That's not to say we journalists don't WANT to do that - -we do. Oh hell yes we do, but we also have bosses who hold the power to fire us, and those bosses have decided that what you the masses want is sex, drugs, violence, and human suffering - but you just want to revel in the images and not look into the root issues underneath them. And unfortunately for many of you that's true - if it wasn't then asinine shows like Cops would never have made it. In my opinion, however, journalism should not cater to what people want simply because they want it. Adults are supposed to be mature enough to realize that sometimes they have to experience things that might not be as much fun as seeing people get shot. Journalism should not be encouraging the infantification of the country. Didn't think you'd get this long of a rant out of me, did you? Last edited by shakran; 04-04-2007 at 10:56 PM.. |
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04-05-2007, 05:22 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Back on topic, the thing that always amazes me about Congressional visits to foreign states is the hard and fast rule that nothing ever gets accomplished. Honestly, has anything solid ever come out of one of these trips? That said, I think that it's a good thing because it allows the administration to keep their message intact while reaching out to the Syrians. I see this as a version of a smoke-and-mirrors trick so that actual discussions can take place. I'm sure that all the Congressional members were briefed and given instructions on agendas.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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04-05-2007, 06:49 AM | #10 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Along the lines of what Jazz said, I found this article from the Asia Times Online. I realize that it's really a speculative piece, but there are some interesting conclusions. I chopped it up pretty good to keep it relevant to our discussion, but you can "unhide" to see the full thing.
Was it really Pelosi in Damascus? By Sami Moubayed ...Olmert decided to break with the Bush administration after the Democratic election victory last year and rely on the president's opponents in Congress for his Middle East diplomacy. That certainly is unlikely. Or maybe Pelosi was actually in Damascus at the request of Bush himself. All the talk about Bush being opposed to her visit, therefore, would be no more than media jargon, intended for local consumption in the United States. This would mean that Pelosi was in Damascus because Bush wanted her to be in Damascus. Opposing the visit would save him a lot of face, given all his rising rhetoric in recent years on Syria. Indeed, Bush has raised the anti-Syrian tone to such an extent that it has became too difficult for him to retreat without embarrassing himself. Bush realized he was wrong - the Syrians were right - and he needed a back channel to Damascus to help bring about stability to Lebanon and Palestine - and, more important, Iraq. True, Pelosi was carrying a message from the Israelis, but the real substance of her visit was a message from Washington, DC. The real message was: we need the Syrians. The final questions arise from Pelosi's trip to Beirut, before going to Syria. Speaking with authority, she told the Lebanese that the US "will not bargain over Lebanon" and that her visit to Syria "ought not to be considered as meaning a change in US policy concerning Lebanon". If Pelosi was not representing the White House, how could she then give remarks on official US policy in the Middle East? Didn't the Bush administration say that she did not represent the official government in her Middle East tour? Or was she mandated to speak officially on Lebanon, and unofficially on Syria? She then said from Beirut, after meeting with parliamentary majority leader Saad al-Hariri, "The road to solving Lebanon's problems passes through Damascus." She added that her visit did not fall within the framework of "illusions" but "great hope". click to show
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
04-05-2007, 08:05 AM | #11 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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04-05-2007, 08:34 AM | #12 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Seaver, my point was that China wasn't the Soviet's most powerful ally in the late 60's/early 70's and that China was never a powerful ally of ours. The reason that Kissinger's talks were successful had more to do with the fact that China had been pulling away from the Soviets for years. There's also an interesting theory that Kissinger presented them with proof that the Soviets attempted to frame the Chinese for an unprovoked nuclear strike on Honolulu in 64 or 65 using an older model Soviet missle sub that sank either by accident or mutiny. I don't know how much credence I lend to that theory, but it would explain the suddenness that the Chinese open to us with.
Sorry for the second threadjack, but the diplomacy angle isn't always the one that is the most effective. Sometimes proving that your enemies aren't treating everyone well is more important than what you have to offer, though.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
04-05-2007, 09:18 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-05-2007, 03:39 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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04-05-2007, 03:45 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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My bad - I didn't realize that you were using "powerful" in the military/industrial sense. It makes more sense now especially in the light of the sub attack theory.
Since I've managed to threadjack this thread all to hell and gone with my Soviet obsession, I'll back out now with apologies until someone puts us back on topic.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
04-05-2007, 04:26 PM | #16 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Shakran, your rant is almost word for word what I believe is wrong with the media. I have been making that same argument for years.
Sorry for the "me too". Carry on.
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04-05-2007, 05:44 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Apocalypse Nerd
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I see three options: 1) We can talk to them. 2) We can do nothing. 3) We can bomb them into the stone age. Only solution three involves Bush bravely leading troops into battle: Right now it seems that Bush is engaging in mostly number 2. Maybe you think it's his duty -But is "doing nothing" an effective strategy at compelling Syria to A), B), C), D) and E)? |
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bush, george, stupid, thinks |
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