pan6467

Ah, but the LEGAL ones actually want to assimilate and are proud of their oppurtunites here. They work hard and are given great chances and succeed probably moreso than most who have been born here, because the LEGAL Alien has drive to be better and to be a part of this great country.

The ILLEGAL is a parasitic disease minded criminal that comes here and takes all they can and demands we change for them.

Ask any LEGAL alien if they felt they had to learn English or if they wanted to learn English because they were proud to be here.

The LEGAL alien as a whole are not the ones demanding change. Now, maybe some politicos and some that cater to illegals do, but only because they see gain in it.

My ex-stepfather in law was a LEGAL Mexican immigrant and he worked hard, learned English, and is a very successful man. He doesn't believe the US should assimilate to suit him. He assimilated because as he said, "why would I want to change the place that gives me so many oppurtunities?"

It makes no sense. ILLEGALS ARE ILLEGAL AND HAVE COMMITTED FELONIES.... THEY ARE CRIMINALS... WE SHOULD TREAT THEM AS SUCH.

Trust me we would be treated as such in thier countries and the very people who are ILLEGALLY coming into this country would be the first ones to demand we get punished to the fullest extent of their laws.

You don't see them saying, "Let's make everything Bilingual here and spend BILLIONS of our taxes on treating their sick for free, while our own citizens have to be dying in order to get a band-aid from a hospital."

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

Wow, just like the original immigrants did? The Native Americans?

Or do you mean like the original Spanish that were here in, say, Florida? Or California?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

pan6467

I think we already are. I think that we passed it not too long ago or were really close to passing it.

This has nothing to do with White Americans tho, but if we make it look like it does.... well, we can call everyone who wants to preserve our nation Racists and then we'll win because we labelled them and PC will be on our side... Jolly Good.

No, this has to do with OUR country as we know it as our ancestors ADDED to it and as we try to keep it alive. Again, my ancestors took pride in learning English and in assimilating, they DID NO NOT NEVER expect this country to assimilate to them. They knew if it assimilated to them, then it wasn't the great country they had dreamt of coming to. If it assimilated to them, either it did so to garner their support (and thus would drop them and go to the next major immigrant population) or it would become more like the country they left believing they had no oppurtunities there.

IF YOU COME HERE ILLEGALLY YOU COMMITTED A FELON, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DEMAND ANYTHING OF THIS COUNTRY.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

flstf

It would probably be wise for most students in the U.S. to learn Spanish. There are already several states and cities where it is almost necessary to speak it to get by.

Almost every major party presidential candidate is advocating amnesty for illegals and the employers who hire them. The Senate has already voted for amnesty and the newly elected House is probably not far behind. President Bush is also for amnesty. The last time we did this (under Reagan I think) the illegal population increased dramatically, and the same thing will probably happen again.

I believe most polititians believe that the gain of Hispanic votes offsets the English only crowd. It seems like the U.S. will become somewhat like Canada with the French language requirements. I don't think that most people who are against bilingual education are fascists.

pan6467

Cool bring up history about how the White Man stole this country. Try to play on people's guilt for what their ancestors did. (Ahem, speaking of Spanish... what exactly did Cortez do again to the proud Aztec people? And what did Ponce DeLeon do again to the Indians?)

Yeah Baby....... slam us, make us look and feel like we are the evil ones who have never done anything but take over and destroy things.

We didn't take this great land and turn it into the greatest country. (Of course we're in decay now, because for too long we have tried to become something for everyone and have lost our nation's identity). You can live in the past or you can admit mistakes and move on making the best of what you got.

History has been made of wars and countries taking over other countries. If the ILLEGALS wanted to go to war... fine... but they don't.

What the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT wants is to have everything handed to him and to be a parasite on our nation. They aren't trying to better our country... they want our country to accomodate them and they expect us to roll over and do whatever they want us to.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Yes, they should learn English. Yes, Gingrich is a pompous ass.

pan6467

Agreed on both accounts. I really don't think asking them to come over LEGALLY, learning to speak English and assimilating into our culture and adding to it if they want is asking too much.

And yes, Gingrich is a pompous ass who is only doing this to further himself. He's trying to win the Buchananites over.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

One small point that has gotten lost is that Bush, in one of his few bi-partisan acts with Congress,effectively ended the way we treat bilingual education with the passage of No Child Left Behind Act....and the replacement of the Bilingual Education Act with the new 'English Language Acquisition, Language Enhancement, and Academic Achievement Act' which has a greater emphasis on teaching english so that it is learned more quickly than under the old Biligual Ed Act, which many saw as providing a crutch rather than an inducement.

The fact that there was no opposition to the change in policy, even among the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, is an indication that the old bilingual approach needed fixing.

Where I think many are concerned is in the heated rhetoric...from the talk of a "ghetto language" to the notion that illegal immigration in itself is a felony (illegal immigration is less than a misdomeanor) and are parasites on the system and the misconception regarding "amnesty".

I think we are all best served when we keep the discussions rational and recognize that we benefit from the best of all cultures that have contributed to the country and we should ensure that future immigration is legal and fair, with no stigma on language and culture of one's nation of origin.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Bill O'Rights

I'll be 98.

Who cares?


Ahhh...who'm I kiddin'? Ain't no way, on this green earth, I'm makin' it to see 98.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

samcol

The question is will this growing population be American, or will they be Mexicans living in America who wave the Mexican flag and only speak Spanish?

mixedmedia

You speak in generalizations. ILLEGALS as if they are a lazy, Spanish-speaking amorphous ooze bent on your destruction, ala The Blob. LEGALS as if they are all flag-waving pillars of virtue crowned with garlands of daisies and bent on being "good Americans."

I don't really have much to address to that kind of thinking.


Everything changes, pan. Do you suppose America is same as it was when your ancestors arrived here?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

The_Jazz

I love all the gross generalizations in this thread. "All legal aliens" are insert here. "All illegal aliens" are insert here. They are all individuals. There are no universals, only trends among the individuals.

Many legal aliens arrive here knowing little or no English. Some illegals are fluent - I know a few.

I also think that we're all (myself included) getting dangerously close to violating Rule 1 of the guidelines, specifically the discussion of race. For everyone's health and wellbeing, here's a reminder:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=45061

If we keep in this direction, I may ask a disinterested 3rd party to review and decide whether or not to shut this thread down.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

Sorry, I think this is reactionary. I live around Hispanic people every day of my life. The apartment complex I live in is probably 90% Hispanic. There is a small but vocal segment of the Mexican immigrant community that parcels out inflammatory rhetoric about reclaiming parts of the southwestern US, but the vast majority of immigrants both legal and illegal are just busy trying to get by. Activism is a luxury that people too busy picking fruit and cleaning bathrooms can't afford.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

blade02

To clarify my stance. Yes, immigrants should learn english. No, I don't expect them to know perfect English, but I also don't expect the government to keep making exceptions and changes to accomodate people who speak Spanish or any other language.

In a capitolistic society, its to my benefit that I learn another language. On the same hand, I feel that the government is failing me if they create a situation where I HAVE to know another language. I shouldn't have to change my lifestyle, or language just because a bunch of people decide to move in next door. I am all about people keeping their cultural traditions, but I am not interested in changing my culture and traditions to accomodate other people's cultures. Especially when they moved here voluntarily.

They Native Americans didn't give a damn about European culture and made no effort to accomodate it, and even then the Native American cultures were for the most part wiped out. I don't think my culture and traditions are better than anyone elses, but they are mine, and I will fight to keep them.

djtestudo

This whole argument, whatever direction it goes in, will always end up back at illegal immigration, which is the source of probably 95% of the animosity on all sides.

That is really what Gingrich is railing against, and is why people will listen. Hell, I don't particularly like him (although he does write some pretty good Civil War-based alternative historical fiction ), and think how he said what he said is idiotic, but I do agree with the idea that giving benefits to people who literally break the first law of ours that they come into contact with by illegally crossing the border is a threat.

At least we can all agree that Newt really is one

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

archetypal fool

Thanks to the shroud of anonymity of the internet, I can safely say that my parents and I came here illegally. I also know of four others who did the same, all with kids. Today, we're all *American Citizens*. I, along with some of the other kids, am getting a college education. About half are now successful (one owns his own company and speaks English...kinda), but that's due to family ties and tons of help from family. I come from the other half, from people who work their hands and feet to the bone just to make enough money to pay for food, rent, and even send money back to estranged family in Cuba. As I stated above, it just isn't possible to work full time and immerse yourself into learning another language.

How can you make such a distastefully gross generalization about immigrants. It seems you base your image of immigrants from the roving Mexican gangs of the west or something.

I can tell you for a fact that of those who came here illegally, when the opportunity came, became citizens, and they'd gladly defend this country to the death. To think otherwise is foolish. You seem to think that all immigrants come here to take your tax money and health care. You're making them the enemy, and you couldn't be further from the truth.

You need to learn to see people as human beings, not numbers and foreign entities who come to take your shit. It's funny...If it were up to you, my family and I, as well as so many genuinely wonderful people who have fallen into bad times through no fault of their own, would all be dead in your blessed "deadman's zone".

mixedmedia

I was offended by this sentiment, as well. But hysteria seems to bring this sort of thing out in people.

Thanks for your post.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Bill O'Rights

That's what I love about the TFP.
What a cross section of society we have.

Fascinating read there, Arch.

I know that it gives me something to chew on and mull over.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

The_Jazz

Since host is apparently taking the day off, here's an interesting story out of California:

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5568917

This thread took a weird jaunt into this territory earlier. I think it's relevant to shed light on the fact that lots of folks are struggling with this question.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

flstf

Thanks for sharing your story.
You have a unique perspective on this so I am curious, Do you think that there should be laws against illegal immigration or should the borders be open to all?

My wife immigrated from behind the iron curtain (when there still was one) and citizenship was granted for anyone who could escape. She said she would have gone anywhere to get away from communism but the U.S. was easiest to get into at that time and she could only speak Czech, English, some Russian and German.

highthief

Right back atcha.

First, it's called "a joke". I'm not sure what it is in Spanish.

Second, guess what? - English Canadian, here, raised in bilingual fashion in French Quebec. I can safely say, it didn't hurt and in fact, expanded my career options.

Language changes and evolves. Everyone needs to relax a little, who takes such things too seriously.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Willravel

It's funny that the Minutemen want to separate themselves from the KKK and white supremacists. The Minutemen have long standing ties to the National Alliance, which is one of the largest neo-nazi organizations in the US. They even recruit directly out of the KKK.

archetypal fool

flstf

That's precisely the case why borders can't just be closed, in my opinion. The US has always been a center for humanity, always accepting people from around the world when they were down. "Bring us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free," we used to say. For some reason some portions of the US has lost its roots, and now it wants to be alone, one United America for united Americans, the rest of the world be damned. This isn't how things should work. Like I said in an earlier post, I may be biased because I've been granted the opportunity, but this nation, based on its principles, can't just give the cold shoulder to foreigners. Jews, Italians, Irish, Germans, British, Russians, Africans, Cubans, Mexicans, Colombians, you name it...They've all come here for a better life, and most of the time the US has come through with its promise. There's no reason we should start making things more difficult for people who are already in turmoil (why would you consider moving to another country if not for some bad stuff going on?).

Also, something for those who are making a huge deal about language to consider: Every first generation child or teen who comes here is going to learn English. I can't help but think that some people don't realize that. Yeah, my parents might never learn to speak English, and new immigrants in their 20s-30s might have a hard time trying, but realize that this is only a problem for a relatively small amount of time as children and teens will learn (and then, as was my case, they will be the English tongue of their parents).

djtestudo

About 75% of them probably came through places like Ellis Island and similar centers where they entered the country LEGALLY.

An analogy for this (expanded from a similar one I heard not long ago) is owning a bed and breakfast. People come in, sleep there, eat there, and pay you a fee for the right. You are a generous person, so you show a willingness to negotiate that fee, so that everyone can enjoy your hospitality.

However, people start breaking in the place in the night, sleeping there and eating in the morning, without paying. They claim that because you have opened your doors to others, they should be allowed to come in whenever they want and receive the same services as others, even though they aren't even willing to do things the way everyone else does.

If you owned that place, would you let those people stay? I sure as Hell wouldn't.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

archetypal fool

That's a really good point, and there's really no way to argue against it. It would be ideal if all the local governments of the Hispanic countries would only act synchronously so as to expedite the processing of immigrants coming to this country legally, but that's not the case. As it stands, it can take as long as 10 *years* for such paperwork to be completed. Frankly, that's ridiculous, and I can understand why some would just choose to sneak in illegally, rather than wait as long as 10 years to be let in legally. I'm not condoning it, of course, but when presented with such a circumstance...I can see why some (or most) would just come illegally.

Cynthetiq

i dunno, my family got everyone over here over about 15 years. It took time, patience, and doing things the right way, legally. There were many months I did not get to sleep in my own bedroom for a good part of my youth.

so it takes time, big deal. oh right, they want it NOW.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

archetypal fool

Agreed. I'm just trying to rationalize their decision.

mixedmedia

How about, humanize their decision.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

djtestudo

Oh, I agree completely.

If I was in charge (STOP LAUGHING!) I would have it so that it was as easy as possible to get people in legally, with no limits or anything like that, while keeping our borders secure. I would even (against my fiscal conservatism) go so far as providing accelerated English and citizenship programs for those who would want to do it, with short-term welfare benefits upon completion (basically a couple months until they became settled and employed).

If people want to be here, for the right reasons, we should welcome them. However, if they don't want to follow our rules (and by being illegal, they are, even if they are perfect citizens otherwise) they shouldn't be given anything.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pig

in a related thought, i find it interesting to juxtapose the concern that many americans are feeling over the concept with a national language and the preservation of american english, with the fact that thanks to the economic and political/military domination of the british empire and the united states, english is the dominant language of business and intellectual thought throughout the world. i guess chinese could eventually take that over, but i don't think english is on the way out any time soon. i wonder if this conversation occurred with latin? i'm sure it must have.

i personally would like to see a hightened emphasis on learning languages in our schools, and yes it would seem that spanish would be a wise choice. i recognize that its an issue worthy of serious consideration, and certainly having a common language helps with communication; but i don't see it warranting this level of hysteria.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

jorgelito

Will, this is the perfect post. Sums it up quite nicely.

Nope. Your anecdote is just you. I know many illegals who do not think the way you do. At all. I am surrounded by themand have to endure the dirty looks by them all day long.

I do see people as human beings and it is a two-way street. It is they who do not see me as a human being despite my friendly overtures. Even when I speak Spanish I have to put up with the rolled eyes and nasty attitudes.

When we speak of illegals, it is ALL illegals. I don't care if they are British, Canadian, Mexican, Chines or Indonesian. Go and apply for a visa and get in line like the rest of us. We are a great nation of immigrants no doubt, but it is totally wack for one group to keep demanding special treatment when the rest of us did it the legal way and learned the local language.

English is my second language but I am doing just fine thank you. I have a decent grasp and command of the language and do my best to everyday.

I really don't understand why they refuse to learn when the rest if us did, including my 84 year old grandma who now, funny enough, teaches English to other immigrant grandmas.

I don't know if it's really hysteria but rather more of an annoyance thing. We do learn a second language in school, it's required for graduation both in high school and in college. No one is against Spanish or Mexicans, I think people are more against the idea of people not willing to learn the language that unifies the various diversity of our nation's peoples. I think that distinction often gets lost in the discussion because people get so riled up and obessed with making it an anti-Latino thing.

Spanish is not a very good choice. I only use Spanish for casual use such as taco stands or communicating with laborers. Chinese is by far the smarter decision in picking up a second language, especially if you want to do business or work at a MNC that does a lot of business with China. But even then, you probably really don't have to since most Chinese already speak English as it is compulsory for them to learn in school.

This is a lovely post DJ, I agree with you completely. Well written.

The_Dunedan

Source this or retract it, and I don't mean with quotes from La Raza, Voz de Aztlan, or MeCHA. I am not a MinuteMan member, but I have friends who are, and I have followed this project from its' inception. They have always made a -very- public effort to prevent White Supremacists from joining, and this isn't the first adversarial run-in they've had with the KKK/NA crowd. They have members from every ethnic group, including hispanics, so I'd very much like to see where you're getting this.

There were several incidents of KKK types trying to join Civillian Border Patrol and Ranch Rescue, but they were purged. Such peopl are persona non grata in these groups, and for good reasons; not the least of which is avoiding spurious accusations of racism.

archetypal fool

jorgelito, where do you live? I'll admit that I live in Florida and my story revolves around the local people. Every immigrant I know here knows or is actively studying English, except for my father. I really don't know what the case is like in the west. I assumed it was similar to here, but that was just speculation on my part.

Bill O'Rights

Agreed.
Where does that come from, Will? Is it conjecture? Everything that I have read, about The Minutemen, points completely contrary to your statement. They have gone out of thier way to avoid any ties, real or perceived, with racist and supremicist organizations.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

roachboy

i dont see the problem. there is a very close connection between xenophobia and racism--read through this thread if you doubt it---and groups like the minutemen operate in an ambiguous space wherein the two often drift into and (superficially) out of each other--personally, i think the possibility of this drift (both ways) is a significant element of such appeal as this sorry group has.
is the problem that a formal affiliation was posited?
what difference does that really make?
they are of a piece with a deeply problematic logic concerning immigration and/or migrant labor flows. and this is not a recruitment site for the minutemen, so it seems to me that the folk who support them should own the implications of the logic that makes them possible.

unless you seriously believe that a group like the minutemen can distinguish the logic upon which they operate from racism simply by not affiliating with explicitly racist organizations. that seems to me a public relations matter, having nothing at all to do with the actual issue of whether a militia group predicated on xenophobia that deploys to "protect the border" from contamination is in itself problematic. i think it is problematic. i think it is deeply problematic, based on the same kind of nitwit logic that gingrich used in his weekend bonbon that is the starting point for this sad sad thread.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

The_Jazz

I have to agree with roachboy here. I think that xenophobia and racism are separated only by degrees. That's my largest problem with this entire thread. While I certainly agree that illegal immigration causes problems, I think that some of the reactions to it are closer to racism than anything else.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

I can agree to that to some point, but I think that's painting a very broad stroke.

My issues with all of this is that the rules were posted and many people followed them effectively and successfully, namely my parents and extended family of about 20 people. My irritation on this whole subject is that why do some have to follow the law and others don't?

Please also note that Illegal immigration is not endemic to the United States, many countries with strong economies are experiencing this kind of situation around the world. My irritation works for that as well since my wife and I would like to expatriate to another country for a period of our lives and cannot do so legally because of the chicken egg situation, no one will hire us because we don't have papers, governments won't give us papers because we have no job sponsor.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

djtestudo

But we're not talking about xenophobia OR racism.

We're talking about getting people to follow rules and assimilate into the culture of the country that they WANT to come to, instead of the people already here being forced to bend to them.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

The_Jazz

djtestudo, I don't think you can separate the issues. They're far too intertwined to discuss one without the other, especially since I think that xenophobia is at least partially responsible for "forcing" anything on anyone.

Then there's the fact that one of the private groups out to eradicate illegal immigration is certainly xenophobic and might be racist if willravel can document his claim adequately. The Minutemen exist to keep "them" out of "here". They have no other mandate as a group.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

The_Dunedan

No, the MinuteMen exist to assist the US Border Patrol; the Border Patrol exists to keep "them" out of "here" until they follow the rules. Ranch Rescue and CBP exist to keep trespassers off private property; people's farms. Hence the name Ranch Rescue.