06-12-2003, 10:11 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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If Bush lied, so did a whole lot of other people...
This is in response to the idea that the president ought to be impeached for "lying about the existence of WMD's in Iraq."
Before I start with the quotes though, I want to point out 2 things: 1) We also haven't found Saddam Hussein. Yet, we know he existed before (of course). So, does that mean he doesn't exist now since we don't know where he is? 2) Yes, so some of the information we had was false and a forgery. Fine. That has nothing to do with the president and his administration however. The CIA has admitted that they did not report to the White House that the reports of Iraq buying nuclear materials from Nigeria were a forgery. Anyway, here goes... Quote:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-12-2003, 10:42 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Dubya
Location: VA
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Wow, that's a lot of people talking about a whole lot of weapons... I mean 1,000 tons here, 8,500 liters there.
So where are they...... *poof*
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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
06-12-2003, 10:56 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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As it has been said many many times on many threads, Iraq is a large country and there are many ways to hide various WMDs. It's just a matter of time before we find traces of them and/or the people who know what happened to them.
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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06-12-2003, 10:57 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Super Agitator
Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A
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Don't guess you noticed that the source for many of those items was Dr. Hans Blix - Not someone from the RNC, the CIA or the PDQ!.
A president, acting in good faith, based upon the information he has - even if that information proves to be totally erroneous, is only doing his job. Nothing more - nothing less.
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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! |
06-12-2003, 11:05 AM | #5 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
__________________
Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-12-2003, 11:13 AM | #6 (permalink) | ||
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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look, nobody that you quoted had access to all the intelligence that a US president has access to.
---- and as for hans blix, he never stated for a fact that iraq possessed these weapons like gwb did. and while we're talking about blix, here's something else i know this is a lil old, but it proves the point ---------------- US claim dismissed by Blix Quote:
and here is a recent interview w/ diane sawyer. http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/...exclusive.html Quote:
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-12-2003, 11:22 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Oh, no evidence of mobile weapons labs.
Hmmm, like the two we found. And I guess president Clinton didn't have access to the same intelligence that president Bush does. That made a lot of sense.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
06-12-2003, 11:27 AM | #8 (permalink) | |||
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i've posted on another thread http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/1941172 Quote:
Quote:
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-12-2003, 11:34 AM | #9 (permalink) |
Oracle & Apollyon
Location: Limbus Patrum
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Personally, I'm tired of all this stuff, today is one of the days when I wish everyone on capitol could removed. Or better yet throw in Bone's burn pile(Nonsense Thread).....
Bush lied, so did Clinton, Nixon, Regan and whole lot of other people in office. I'm not saying he lied about everything. Or even enough to impeach him like someone proposed in another thread. Currently I'm with seretogis, maybe we should wait till the search is over to pass judgement. That is if the search lasts a reseaonable amount of time. I don't wanna still be looking for WMD in 2006.
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La Disciplina È La Mia Spada, La Fede È Il Mio Schermo, Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza, E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense. |
06-12-2003, 11:38 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Oracle & Apollyon
Location: Limbus Patrum
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Of course there is always the idea that Iraq doesn't have any WMD and none will be found because they shipped them all out of country to other terrorists...
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La Disciplina È La Mia Spada, La Fede È Il Mio Schermo, Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza, E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense. |
06-12-2003, 11:41 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (sponsored by Bob Kerrey, John McCain, and Joseph Lieberman, and signed into law by President Clinton): "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." - 105th Congress, 2nd Session, September 29, 1998 "His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region, and the security of all the rest of us. What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal." - President Clinton, February 17, 1998 No, it's not that he didn't see an imminent threat...it's that he was too busy taking care of "other business" in the oval office to do anything about it.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-12-2003, 11:43 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
__________________
Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-12-2003, 11:50 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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mmm,
Amazing to me that we haven't figured out the 'other' legitimate uses for those trailers. Or for that matter, why Saddam hid those other trailers from inspectors. But I'm sure they were legit and Bush is just a big liar.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
06-12-2003, 12:33 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i could be very well wrong here (and i have no prob w/ that), but all i heard was they "found" 2 trailers.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-12-2003, 12:42 PM | #15 (permalink) |
The Original Emo Gangsta
Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository
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I love arguments like this where the pro-war people always respond with the sarcastic "hmmm...well, I guess then..." while the anti-war people always post an article proving their point.
All in all, this thread should have really been named "If Fark already posted this article, so did a whole lot of other people."
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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team." |
06-12-2003, 12:47 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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As for posting articles, there's not much of a need. What I and most others say isn't anything that is contrary to any articles one could post, but rather an inevitable conclusion through common sense (aka connecting the dots). I don't need an article to tell me that if a madman and chronic liar has a ton of weapons of mass destruction in 1998, kicks out inspectors, and when they return 4 years later claims he doesn't have them anymore but can't provide any proof of it - which he KNEW they would be looking for - that he's still lying and that they're really there in some form or another. Or maybe they're not - maybe he sold them to people already or something. But they sure weren't destroyed.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-12-2003, 01:26 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia
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06-12-2003, 01:29 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Killer Yoda, If you don't care for 'sarcasm' as you put it, why practice it? I grant that I can be sarcastic, but the points I made were valid. As to posts, are you really saying that I or any other person supporting this war has been lax in putting them up?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 06-12-2003 at 01:42 PM.. |
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06-12-2003, 01:31 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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I'm talking about he ones that were loaded with scientific equipment and buried south of Bagdad.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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06-12-2003, 05:10 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-12-2003, 07:45 PM | #21 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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http://www.redding.com/news/apaftern...aptop055.shtml
shipping containers, 11 of them. Buried. No, no "evidence" of WMD's. Just lots and lots of lab equipment. But I've not seen a satisfactory explaination for why they were buried near a munitions plant either.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
06-12-2003, 08:14 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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My question would be "when is the search over?" You can't prove he never had WMDs or a WMD program. It's not logically possible to prove something was never there. So armed with that excuse, we can go on looking forever.
That being said, I would like some actual hard and fast evidence of WMDs, not just hints that something might have existed.
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it's quiet in here |
06-12-2003, 08:28 PM | #23 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Believe it or not, I want some hard evidence too.
But I believe they were there. I also believe there is a real possibility they are now in Syria.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
06-12-2003, 08:29 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Here's the thing though. Where do you get the idea it's even remotely possible he never had WMDs? Last I checked, his enemies didn't gas themselves and Chemical Ali didn't get that nickname because he was a great chemistry teacher. Now, sure, you can say "we haven't seen them and we have no proof that he didn't destroy them." To which I ask when the burden of proof suddenly came to us and away from those who gassed their own people and were the subject of all the UN resolutions in the first place. We don't put the burden of proof on the government to show that convicted criminals AREN'T reformed when they're up for parole, the burden of proof is on the convicted criminals to prove that they ARE reformed. It's not like we just came out of the blue and said "Look! Canada has vast reaching biochem weapon plans and will eventually attack the US!" No, we said "Look. We ALL know that Iraq did have vast reaching biochem weapons plans and has used them in the past. We ALL agreed that those plans should be stopped. And we ALL told Iraq to prove to us - 13 years ago - that they did stop and destroyed the fruits of their labors. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if they had truly destroyed their weapons they would be able to provide swift proof of it - ESPECIALLY considering they knew that's EXACTLY what the internation community wanted and the possible repercussions of not doing so." Well they called our bluff one too many times, and I for one am thankful that the game of cat and mouse is finally coming to an end. As for if I think we'll ever find them, I don't know. I hope we do. I know one thing though - they do still exist. Thinking anything to the contrary goes against all logic and common sense. It's just a matter of what's happened to them.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 06-12-2003 at 10:36 PM.. |
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06-12-2003, 10:14 PM | #25 (permalink) | |
The Original Emo Gangsta
Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository
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There just seems to be a recurring trend of pro-war sarcasm towards the many, many articles we anti-war people feel the need to post all the time. I thought it was pretty funny, we seem to have cooled down a little since the war "ended" back when it used to be almost near-flaming occassionally. And as far as people being sarcastic, I try to never, ever use sarcasm in arguments. Sorry for the threadjack, now back to your regularly schedualed programming...
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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team." |
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06-13-2003, 08:17 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia
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Edit: Where is Jimmy Hoffa? Last edited by geep; 06-13-2003 at 10:12 AM.. |
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06-13-2003, 11:11 AM | #27 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i thought we already knew where they were.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-13-2003, 12:32 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I didn't see any quotes in which Clinton described Iraq's WMDs as an imminent threat. I see "emboldened tomorrow" and "some day"; but nothing like what Bush said.
I'm totally willing to believe that everything Bush said was in good faith, but was based on some crucial bad information. This actually scares me more than if he lied, because it suggests a damaged and divided intelligence community. Last edited by Macheath; 06-13-2003 at 12:35 PM.. |
06-13-2003, 12:52 PM | #29 (permalink) |
Devils Cabana Boy
Location: Central Coast CA
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It does not mean that every one else was lying, if I lie to you and tell you that my name is bob, is it lying if you state that my name is bob?
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen |
06-13-2003, 02:47 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia
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06-13-2003, 07:54 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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we're talking about a SHITLOAD of tons of material here. it's not that easy to move like a person, as a person can just travel w/ ease.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-13-2003, 09:57 PM | #32 (permalink) |
Devils Cabana Boy
Location: Central Coast CA
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ok I’ve said before on 2 separate post, 500 tons of sarin (which is what he was quoted as having by the bush administration) is 15000 cubic feet, you cant hide 15,000 cubic feet.
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen |
06-13-2003, 10:24 PM | #33 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Don't let numbers deceive you - it seems like an inconspicuous amount, yet, in volume, it's not much bigger than my house (and I live in a small house).
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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06-14-2003, 01:12 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Drifting.
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sigh, if they were there, why werent they used?
a little dose of anthrax could have evened the odds in the war. Yeah, it would make saddam look like a big meanie et al, and it might have even caused America to nuke iraq (unlikely), but Saddam must have known that he had no chance of winning and that history is going to paint him that way anyway. And no, i don't think a sudden pang of conscience is what did it. For those who reckon he's moved them, stop to consider the logistics of transporting numerous WMD's in total secret when you know that America is spying on you night and day with the most sophisticated techonology invented. Its not like you can slip a warhead into the back pocket of someone and send them on thier way either, huge convoys with armed escorts would have had to be used. btw, Lebell... the American government is hard pressed to prove the existence of WMD's. The containers were discovered at or some stage before April the 14th 2003. It is now June the 14th. I think we can safely say that those containers are in no way related to chemical weapons. I also think we can safely say that they will not find any WMD's, or to be precise, WMD's of Iraqi origin. |
06-14-2003, 04:48 AM | #35 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Loki, while I understand your logic, I don't understand how it is any less reasonable than the logic that, had they actually destroyed the weapons, they would have shown the proof to us.
"a little dose of anthrax could have evened the ods in the war." so could a little proof of destruction. No, I think we're exactly in the situation Saddam wanted us to end up in - he knew he couldn't win through military might so, as usual, why not manipulate the court of world opinion and make Iraq out to be a victim.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
06-14-2003, 06:23 AM | #36 (permalink) | |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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a dictator's #1 priority is maintaining/increasing power and he/she would go to great distances to do this.
__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
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06-14-2003, 06:57 AM | #37 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I completely agree dude, which is why it makes no sense through logic to think that if he had destroyed his WMDs he wouldn't submit proof of it, seeing as how - we're he telling the truth - that's all that would be requierd for him to truly remain in power.
Instead, they were not destroyed and therefore he had no proof to the contrary to submit. So, from there, there are 2 options really - 1) be ushered into war, use the WMDs, world opinion shifts entirely against you without a question of doubt, and that's that - there is absolutely nothing left for him - or, 2) be ushered into war, hide and/or sell your WMDs, watch the world defend you (verbally at least) against the United States, not lose every last grasp of power you have, and perhaps go on to eventually see those hidden/sold WMDs be used on the US one day.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
06-14-2003, 07:08 AM | #39 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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far fetched as it may seem - it allows for maintaining some power whereas the only other logical option does not - and, as you said, a dictator's primary priority is maintaining power.
Add that to the fact that Saddam Hussein is well known as a master manipulator of the media and it's not as far-fetched as it may seem.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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