The_Dude

did you read my earlier post regarding those labs??

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

a_divine_martyr

I don't get how when Clinton lied about having an affair with Lewinsky, there was the idea of having him impeached.

Bush lied about why we were going to war. I say, let's not be biased and impeach the fucker for lieing.

__________________
Censorship and thought control can only exist in secrecy and darkness...

james t kirk

Well, in 91, his daddy's approval ratings were sky high too.

Nobody had ever heard of this clinton guy.

But in 91 and 92, the economy turned out to be a bigger election issue. Seemed "kicking some iraqi butt" didn't hold water with joe q public who was out of work and had 2 kids to feed.

Remember, "it's the economy stupid", well, in 2004, it's going to be the same thing.

The_Dude

sure hope so

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

seretogis

That was a very different and clear-cut issue. This is nothing but people whipped into a frenzy by the impatient media.

Remember how a week after the war started, the media was complaining that it was taking "so long" ? There were some reports which asked if the war would go on for years, simply because it had taken more than one week.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Simple_Min

How the heck is this any different? The only difference I can see is Clinton lied to the American people whereas Curious George lied to the world.

Yea, you're right the media has no right in asking any questions of the government. Who needs freedom.

At least in the GB there is a investigation that began into the actions of the government...but we, freedom loving americans, do not want the truth to be revealed. Well, just the republicans.

__________________
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

reconmike

What is there to be investigated? The world knew Iraq possesed
banned weapons, The almighty UN sent inspectors back in after the were kicked out.
All Hussien had to do was prove he no longer possesed these weapons to keep the big bad United States from attacking.
He failed to do so, so in my book he still had them.
How much simpler can it be?
My only concern is if they are not in Iraq who has them now.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Simple_Min

The world didn't know, or else there wouldn't be so much anti american sentiment throughout the world. The US knew Iraq had the weapons with detailed spy pictures, so why not aid the UN inspectors to the correct locations?

Hussein would not ever comply with what he perceives to be evil. The same way you feel about complying with your enemy. By hindsight I am glad the bastard is gone, but it is important to realize his old connections with our government. He killed his people with the tools we provided him with. There is plenty of evidence of this here and on google.

If we KNOW WMD were/are there why is there only american "inspectors" there? Even if any WMD are found the simple fact that no independent group can verify them will lead a suspicious cloud over any future smoking gun.

Yes, if the weapons were there, then where are they? One reason for this war was to make sure no terrorist would get those weapons...and now there is a chance that is what has happened or will happen in due time.

So far the war on terror has failed; the Iraqi war has failed to bring democracy, or to show the "45-minute deployable" sites of the wmd. Two countries have been destroyed and all the reasons for destroying those two countries have not been fulfilled. Yep, mission accomplished for the oil pipeline.

__________________
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

The_Dude

i disagree on that logic.

how can he prove that he doesnt have them anymore when he doesnt have them?

it's like giving proof of god's non-existence when he (or she) doest exist.

and to prove that he didnt have them, he even let the inspectors back in to check! as far as i saw, they went wherever they want and still didnt find shit

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

seretogis

No, there will always be anti-American sentiment, regardless of how right or wrong our actions are. Just because some people don't like the US doesn't mean that it is in the wrong all of the time.

We're on top and simply because of that, we have people who think that we are the next "evil empire". Those feelings shouldn't influence our leaders decisions imo.

They went where they wanted, as long as they let Saddam know 24-48 hours in advance so that he could load up some trucks with.. um.. "stuff" .. and drive it away before the inspectors arrived. Satellite photos of this very thing happening on several occasions was presented to the UN security council.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

TaLoN

what is so hard to understand here? EVERY president in the history of the united states has lied/hidden the truth from the public. THE PUBLIC CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH SOMETIMES. it is naive to think that anyone in power has the luxury of honesty.

People only seem to bitch when they find out they have been lied to... those occasions are greatly outnumbered by the number of times that lies have not been uncovered.

seretogis

Clinton wasn't impeached simply for lying to the American people or to a grand jury. There was a lot more involved in teh way of obstruction of justice, and who knows what else had they dug into whitewater a little more.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Phaenx

You didn't say anything about it in this thread, unless you meant that flying crop duster-ish thing.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Phaenx

Sure, first you guys have to prove it though. Can you prove he was lying without having the information he had?

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

seretogis

I'm waiting for someone to whip out Saddam's oil-stained dress that was found balled up in a corner in the oval office.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

The_Dude

sry about that. here it is.

Analysts have doubts Iraqi trailers were germ labs
By JUDITH MILLER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
New York Times

U.S. and British intelligence analysts with direct access to the evidence are disputing claims that two mysterious trailers found in Iraq were for making deadly germs. In interviews over the last week, they said the mobile units were more likely for other purposes and charged that the evaluation process had been damaged by a rush to judgment.

"Everyone has wanted to find the `smoking gun' so much that they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion," said one intelligence expert who has seen the trailers and like some others spoke on condition that he not be identified. He added, "I am very upset with the process."

The Bush administration has said the two trailers, which forces found in Iraq in April and May, are evidence that Saddam Hussein was hiding a program for biological warfare. In a "white paper" analysis last week, the administration publicly detailed its case, even while conceding discrepancies in the evidence and a lack of hard proof.

Now, intelligence analysts in the Middle East, as well as in the United States and Britain, are disclosing serious doubts about the germ evidence in what appears to be a bitter debate within the intelligence community. Skeptics said their initial judgments of a weapon application for the trailers had faltered as new evidence came to light.

Bill Harlow, a spokesman for the CIA, said the dissenters "are entitled to their opinion, of course, but we stand behind the assertions in the white paper."

At least three teams of Western experts have examined the trailers and evidence from them. While the first two groups to see the evidence were largely convinced that the vehicles were intended to make germ agents, the third group of more senior analysts disagreed sharply over the function of the trailers, with several members expressing strong skepticism, some of the dissenters said.

"I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter," a senior analyst with long experience in unconventional arms said of a tank which the first investigators thought had been used to multiply seed germs into lethal swarms. The government's public report, he added, "was a rushed job and looks political." This analyst had not seen the trailers but had reviewed evidence from them.

The skeptical experts said the mobile plants lacked gear for steam sterilization, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production, peaceful or otherwise. Its lack of availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ contaminants, resulting in failed weapons.

Senior intelligence officials in Washington rebutted the skeptics, saying, for instance, that the Iraqis might have obtained the needed steam for sterilization from a separate supply truck.

The debate came as the U.N. nuclear agency returned to Iraq Friday after a three-month absense. Representatives from the International Atomic Energy Agency -- operating this time under continuous U.S. military escort -- will assess what's missing from the nation's biggest nuclear plant and how to find any missing materials.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/1941172

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

smooth

By the logic I've seen already, we don't have to prove shit.

We already know Bush has lied in the past, there's a threat he may lie in the future, so he needs to prove to us that he isn't lying!

Phaenx

He also isn't calling you names, if you're going to call the guy a liar you might as well put some sort of effort into proving it.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

reconmike

The UN had put in place methods as to how he could prove they were destroyed.
Paperwork, which I thought was silly as hell, but also photographs and actual physcal evidence.

He proved nothing.
Now I will give you an analogy;

It is like we saw you shoot some people and them you said you didn't have a gun anymore but refused to allow us to look or prove you destroyed it.(Easily proven, a big heap of broken metal.)

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Phaenx

So basically one group of analysts out of 3 disagrees in the sense that they maybe might not have been used for making illegal weapons.

Read it over, and took everything into consideration. It's new information but I ultimately felt it was a weak excuse to sew doubt, I still believe those trucks were for making weapons in a fashion the UN couldn't find out about.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy